It was not a sohei but a drunkenmaster. I think the comparision is fair.And lastly, the saddest thing I think. Made an unarmed striking two weapon style core ranger. Does almost the same damage as the monks with around the same AC, oh, but he gets spells, and that isn't including his favored enemy bonuses, or companion. Or anything else really.
** spoiler omitted **
Your ranger has a DPR of 21.2625 while using power attack.
Less than half that of the unoptimised drunken master upthread, who is better at grapple than DPR.
Against your 1st favored enemy you have a DPR of 42.2625 while using power attack. Your favored enemy DPR is .5825 higher than the drunken master's DPR vs. all comers.
Even at your best your still only doing slightly over 50% of the DPR an optimized sohei manages.
Again, no one cares about the sohei.
Compare the ranger to the two core monks posted and let me know.
1) Ranger was hardly optimized. I threw him together in about 20 minutes.
2) Ranger was trying to be a monk stand-in. Still does very well considering. If you want, we can make an optimized ranger that uses a weapon and re-compare.
I know this is not a particularly good build for class comparison, since it's a multiclass Ranger/Monk, but I'd like yo know what you guys think about this one:
Monger
Male Human (Shoanti) Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2 Ranger 6
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+8 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 70 (6d10+2d8+24)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +11, Will +8; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +13/+8 (1d4+6/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +15/+10 (1d6+11/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +5) +10/+5 (1d8+6/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (monstrous humanoids +2, undead +4)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 5):
1 (2/day) Magic Fang (x2)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +13 (+19 Grappling); CMD 26 (28 vs. Grapple)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds, Dragon Style, Endurance, Furious Focus, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -2/+4, Snake Fang, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 15)
Traits Auspicious Tattoo (Shoanti), Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Bluff -1 (+1 vs. monstrous humanoids, +3 vs. undead), Climb +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11 (+13 vs. monstrous humanoids, +15 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +11 (+13 vs. monstrous humanoids, +15 vs. undead), Knowledge (religion) +11 (+13 vs. monstrous humanoids, +15 vs. undead), Perception +12 (+14 vs. monstrous humanoids, +16 vs. undead, +14 while in forest terrain), Sense Motive +14 (+16 vs. monstrous humanoids, +18 vs. undead), Stealth +13 (+15 while in forest terrain), Survival +1 (+3 vs. monstrous humanoids, +5 vs. undead, +3 while in forest terrain, +4 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Shoanti
SQ brawling, combat styles (two-handed weapon), favored terrain (forest +2), fuse style (2 styles), hunter's bonds (companions), stunning fist (stun), track, unarmed strike (1d6), wild empathy
Combat Gear Pearl of power (1st level) (1/day), Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Breastplate, +1 Heavy steel shield, +1 Composite longbow (Str +5), Belt of physical might (Str & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 980 GP
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Special Abilities
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Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids).
Favored Enemy (Undead +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Greater Grapple Maintaining a grapple is a move action, allowing you to make 2 checks a round.
Hunting Companions (1 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (3/day) (DC 15) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Track +3 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wild Empathy +5 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
I always thought it was rather bizarre how most classes can dip 2~4 levels of Monk and be a better Monk than most single-classed Monks.
I gotta say, Knowledge(Religion) is particularly useful for unarmed warriors, since it helps to identify creatures you might not want to touch.
EDIT: I forgot to activate the combat styles. Fixed it, though, it's already accounting for Dragon Style for the unarmed strike damage.
I agree. It is sad that the best thing monk has to offer is a 2 level dip.
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It was not a sohei but a drunkenmaster. I think the comparision is fair.And lastly, the saddest thing I think. Made an unarmed striking two weapon style core ranger. Does almost the same damage as the monks with around the same AC, oh, but he gets spells, and that isn't including his favored enemy bonuses, or companion. Or anything else really.
** spoiler omitted **
Your ranger has a DPR of 21.2625 while using power attack.
Less than half that of the unoptimised drunken master upthread, who is better at grapple than DPR.
Against your 1st favored enemy you have a DPR of 42.2625 while using power attack. Your favored enemy DPR is .5825 higher than the drunken master's DPR vs. all comers.
Even at your best your still only doing slightly over 50% of the DPR an optimized sohei manages.
Again, no one cares about the sohei.
Compare the ranger to the two core monks posted and let me know.
1) Ranger was hardly optimized. I threw him together in about 20 minutes.
2) Ranger was trying to be a monk stand-in. Still does very well considering. If you want, we can make an optimized ranger that uses a weapon and re-compare.
Oh, my...20 minutes...and I might have taken 30. Oh, and I never claimed to be a super-optimizer...I don't like to. Ummm...and his specialty is grapple.
I really like the MoMS concept... But it loses FoB, and that's the one thing Monks have going for them.
Even if it had full BAB, it'd still be unable to fight unarmed, since AoMF become disproportionately expensive for them and they can't use armor to benefit from the Brawling enhancement... -.-'
I really like the MoMS concept... But it loses FoB, and that's the one thing Monks have going for them.
Even if it had full BAB, it'd still be unable to fight unarmed, since AoMF become disproportionately expensive for them and they can't use armor to benefit from the Brawling enhancement... -.-'
I still don't understand why it's such a pain to add some "Mystical Ki Focusing Armwraps of Punching Good" to the game that work as magic weapons for unarmed strikes.
I get that it's effectively "two weapons for the price of one" but Monks are basically forced to take a -2 on all attacks to attack effectively anyway, so this just balances that out somewhat as-is. It results in a net gain of "Flurry may actually kinda work like Full BaB when attacking".
I get that it's effectively "two weapons for the price of one" but Monks are basically forced to take a -2 on all attacks to attack effectively anyway, so this just balances that out somewhat as-is. It results in a net gain of "Flurry may actually kinda work like Full BaB when attacking".
It only really counts as "two weapons for the price of one" for a non-Monks, as Monks can do all their pseudo-TWF attacks with one weapon anyway. You could just give an item that affects only one arm (or just let the g&##*#n cestus benefit from increased unarmed damage >=[) and it would be all the same for the Monk, though any other TWFers would still need to buy two.
I put a pretty good level 8 unarmed Qinggong monk on page 5 of this thread. AC of 27 (about the same as a fullplate fighter) and a flurry routine of +15/+15/+10/+10 (1d10+18) before power attack. That's at least 50-60 DPR against an AC of 21 when using power attack (that's what people are comparing at, right?), so that's about the same as a basic fighter. I won't do exact calculations, as everyone does them differently.
But everyone is too busy arguing good unarmed monks don't exist to even notice. The only reply was to say that it sucks at level 1 compared to a fighter (which class doesn't...).
I think that says it all: everyone says monks are underpowered because they are arguing it so fanatically that they don't have time to listen to reason. :P
You say +15/Etc. BEFORE Power Attack like it means something.
Unfortunately, the Barbarian in my Serpent's Skull game is hitting a solid +18 AFTER Power Attack (in Rage) for a good 2d6+27 (+1d6 Acid), and he's not even made by a particularly amazing optimizer, so that doesn't mean much really.
Your build is also illegal because you took Weapon Focus at first level (a level at which you did not meet the +1 BaB requirement). You'd have to push that back to level 3 at least, delaying either it or Power Attack, thus either delaying that or Dragon Style, thus either delaying that or Dragon Ferocity, meaning you wouldn't have all of your Feats until level 9 unless I've goofed somewhere to with my quick mental math here.
In addition, I have no clue what trait you're talking about that raises unarmed damage.
As well, your AC is only 27 with buffs (meaning you have to compare to every OTHER class with buffs), so you're actually at a whopping 20 without them, and remember Barkskin only lasts 10 minutes per level (meaning you'll have to recast it every 80 minutes) and the Wand of Mage Armor, if I remember correctly, will always be at the lowest caster level, so it only lasts an hour too. In short, your buffs are not guaranteed to be up if there's a surprise fight and they burn precious resources as well.
A level 8 Fighter should, just off the top of my head have: +2 Full Plate (+11 AC), at least 14 Dex (another +2), a +2 Ring of Protection (like you, for another +2) and thus have a non-buffed AC of 25, 5 higher than yours. If he were to have the friendly Druid cast Barkskin on him he'd have a good 28, of if he cast from a wand a 27 as well, like you, but he's still got a passable AC WITHOUT the buffs. Add in possible use of a shield (+2 at most, discounting Tower Shields) and he's laughing at you.
Also, I don't see how you're getting +21 damage on the first attack, no Power Attack. I can see double Str to damage from Dragon Style + Ferocity (that's +12 total), +2 from the Amulet (+14), and +1 from your trait (giving you +15 and the benefit of the doubt) for the first hit and only +12 for the subsequent hits. If I'm missing something, please explain.
As far as I can see your build is full of more holes than swiss cheese.
Edit: I see your edit and now the damage makes a bit more sense, except your DPR should drop quite a bit from that -3 to-hit, should it not?
In addition, I have no clue what trait you're talking about that raises unarmed damage.
There are two, actually... Quain Martial Artist and Mizu Ki Hikari Rebel, both from Dragon Empires Primer.
They raise unarmed damage by +1. Not bad, but nothing amazing either...
If they stack then you just got yourself Weapon Specialization, which isn't too shabby.
I still don't understand why it's such a pain to add some "Mystical Ki Focusing Armwraps of Punching Good" to the game that work as magic weapons for unarmed strikes.
I get that it's effectively "two weapons for the price of one" but Monks are basically forced to take a -2 on all attacks to attack effectively anyway, so this just balances that out somewhat as-is. It results in a net gain of "Flurry may actually kinda work like Full BaB when attacking".
Because AoMF is a sacred cow and the devs are convinced giving Monks any other way to buff their attacks would make it obsolete.
Nevermind that it'd still be extremely useful for Druids, Rangers, Summoners and whoever else has an natural attacks and/or an animal companion.
No, poor Monk has to pay 2x as much and spend an item slot because having more than single way to get enhancement bonuses is too powerful.
Look at how all other classes depend on a single very specific item to increase their damage... Oh, wait...
They'd both be Trait bonuses so they shouldn't stack.
If they stack then you just got yourself Weapon Specialization, which isn't too shabby.
Half Weapon Specialization, actually... And personally, I don't think that feat is nearly as good as people think.
Boosting initiative, skills and saves are much more useful, IMO, but I guess it's a decent trait for monks, since they already have good saves and a decent list of class skills.
EDIT: Ah, you mean if they stack with each other? Oh, no, they're both trait bonuses, so they don't stack.
Nevermind that it'd still be extremely useful for Druids, Rangers, Summoners and whoever else has an natural attacks and/or an animal companion.
Pretty much this. The AoMF restrictions/cost seem fair when used for Natural Attacks (though IMO they too could use the option to enchant each individually, though it would be less cost effective than the AoMF). It's only a joke when it has to be used for Unarmed Strikes too.
As far as the traits go, yeah I was thinking they didn't stack but it couldn't hurt to hope.
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Once again that criteria haw always been used because many people want an unarmed monk. I have a friend I tried to sell the temple sword on, but he was like "If I have to use a weapon I may as well play a fighter".I have seen that same attitude on the boards.
That is why the unarmed monk build is needed, and once again we NEVER said ALL monks were no good.
We said only certain archetypes were any good, and IF you agree with that, then we have no argument, since by not using the core monk you are basically agreeing that it does not hold up well.
Now since I am typing this AGAIN, do you agree or disagree?
If you disagree then state what you disagree with.
Some have said all monks are no good.
I agree with you about unarmed, and I think we've demonstrated through the numbers it is true, but my understanding from the Devs is they believe being unarmed has significant other advantages.
I personally was very surprised the one weapon flurry was reversed but the bump to unarmed was only in the form of the AoMF price change.
I'm posting the monk above not to "prove" it is awesome, but to see how much I can put in it to compare, so we can see if it needs a bump, and where that bump should come.
I personally think something along the lines of weapon training for unarmed attacks only makes sense. If you add it to the build I put up, I don't think it breaks anything, but it does bring it more in line with the other monk builds posted.
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1. Legal things fit the flavor of the class as described in the fluff of the core book. It is highly preferred to not use an archetype of the class, as that pretty much is saying you want to be a different kind of that class. So stick to core class to prove your point. Someone even offered quigong as a compromise. You can use other paizo material, just not archetypes.
We are not allowed to use archetypes created to address complaints about the class. (archetypes do not exist in core).
2. The 2 archetypes that are useful are already well known. People do not complain about those two archetypes. Most classes can pick from most of their archetypes and still be effective. Monks cannot.
You have already barred monks from all content not in the core rulebook, while allowing other classes access to archetypes. Specifically, you are barring the most effective archetypes from consideration while offering a single archetype that does not address DPR as a consolation prize. DPR is being used as the sole metric for comparison, even though unarmed monks can end the fight much more quickly through other means.
3. Single large attacks help damage creatures with DR better than lots of mediocre attacks. Single attacks that almost always hit are usually better than lots of attacks that seldomly hit.
See math posted upthread showing sohei DPR vs fighter and barbarian DPR.
4. I won't change any of these that I have stated. Post when you have an effective build.
The rules have already been changed such that the build I posted surpassing both the fighter and barbarian in damage is no longer allowed for consideration. The initial rules were PFS legal, that was altered when a viable monk build was posted.
You are picking what I am allowed to use for my weapon. You are picking the single archetype I am allowed to use, one carefully vetted. You are not placing these restrictions on builds from other classes.
It would be equivalent to my saying only gnome shuriken fighters are allowed for consideration. If you place enough limitations, any class will suck in comparison to any other class.
Yo when I asked for the most tricked out complex monk archetype fiend monk imaginable to be effective, I didn't mean mounted combat. Idc if he weilds a temple sword, but mounted combat doesn't work in most campaigns.
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Manuever Master - 1 might be the most efficient splash for any CMB class EVER, thanks to the amazingness.
For 1 level you get:
*+2 to all saves
*Flurry of Manuevers (a free attack that can be a manuever requiring a full round action that doesn't subtract from your regular rolls)
*A free combat manuever feat
*Improved Unarmed Strike to qualify for other feats
*Wisdom bonus if you are randomly unarmored in a scenario (sleeping / imprisoned / didn't want to wear armor anyway)
2nd level still gets you another free feat, another +1 to saves, and evasion.
You can splash it on rogue so you can blind someone with Improved Dirty trick as an essentially "free" action (make sneak attack easy). You can splash it on any trip fighter / grapple fighter to get a free feat and what amounts to an extra attack (and shore up a weak will save). Splash it on a druid so they can take a free trip attack and qualify for feats requiring improved unarmed strike (in addition to giving away Improved Trip without Combat Expertise). Choices are endless.
Almost all monk builds here are better off as monk 1-4 / Fighter (or Ranger) the rest of the way. The tetori, for instance, gets almost all of their "non extremely circumstantial" bonuses by level 4; a Tetori 4 / Lore Warden 5 would have better CMB / CMD, more than likely a better AC (you could drop dex to 12 and wear full plate, coming out ahead), and weapon training; in addition to more feats.
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Yo when I asked for the most tricked out complex monk archetype fiend monk imaginable to be effective, I didn't mean mounted combat. Idc if he weilds a temple sword, but mounted combat doesn't work in most campaigns.
You disagree with the build but don't know how he was built other than I included a mount on an archetype that has mount related class features?
No, he's not using a temple sword. He's using a bardiche. I would use the Guan Dao, but pathfinder has not yet included rules for this traditional monk weapon and even cosmetic reskining is not PFS legal.
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I'm not claiming this character is better than a fighter at dealing or taking damage. But it's not too far off, it has better saves, it's a good grappler, it's got stunning fist, it's mobile and it has better skills. It's also got decent single attack damage, and its damage will keep increasing at a good rate thanks to the high strength multipliers. I haven't even mentioned extra attacks from using ki as I'll use most of my ki on barksking early on, but at higher levels there will be some spare points for the odd extra attack as well. Definitely not unplayable, and in any game I've ever been in it's good enough to be a main frontliner.
The premise of the thread was that monks are under powered. You don't have to beat any class to prove monks are competitive.
The rebuke was, viable monk builds were possible with system mastery. You just have to provide a build that is equivalent to other martial classes in effectiveness.
Your build accomplishes this, within the framework of additional restrictions that were later added.
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No, he's not using a temple sword. He's using a bardiche. I would use the Guan Dao, but pathfinder has not yet included rules for this traditional monk weapon and even cosmetic reskining is not PFS legal.
To be fair, while they come from different cultures, there is little functional difference between a Bardiche and a Guan Dao The balance is slightly different due to the blade being affixed to the shaft at two points on the Bardiche, and a counterweight at the butt of the Guan Dao, but they are both heavy chopping blades on a stick. If you have trained with one, you can use the other.
Yo when I asked for the most tricked out complex monk archetype fiend monk imaginable to be effective, I didn't mean mounted combat. Idc if he weilds a temple sword, but mounted combat doesn't work in most campaigns.You disagree with the build but don't know how he was built other than I included a mount on an archetype that has mount related class features?
No, he's not using a temple sword. He's using a bardiche. I would use the Guan Dao, but pathfinder has not yet included rules for this traditional monk weapon and even cosmetic reskining is not PFS legal.
Mounted combat = no
Doesn't matter how many features you have.
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Yo when I asked for the most tricked out complex monk archetype fiend monk imaginable to be effective, I didn't mean mounted combat. Idc if he weilds a temple sword, but mounted combat doesn't work in most campaigns.You disagree with the build but don't know how he was built other than I included a mount on an archetype that has mount related class features?
No, he's not using a temple sword. He's using a bardiche. I would use the Guan Dao, but pathfinder has not yet included rules for this traditional monk weapon and even cosmetic reskining is not PFS legal.
Mounted combat = no
Doesn't matter how many features you have.
Ah. I see. We are free to ignore any class feature that threatens our preconceptions.
Very Well. Delete the mount from the build I posted and add step up. I can add 2 additional potions of mage armor for the price of the mount.
My Sohei still has an AC of 23 pre-buff and deals 74.25 DPR.
With mage armor (potion or wand) and using KI to raise AC we can adjust his DPR to 56.673 (still higher than the barbarian) and raise his AC to 31.
As well, your AC is only 27 with buffs (meaning you have to compare to every OTHER class with buffs), so you're actually at a whopping 20 without them, and remember Barkskin only lasts 10 minutes per level (meaning you'll have to recast it every 80 minutes) and the Wand of Mage Armor, if I remember correctly, will always be at the lowest caster level, so it only lasts an hour too. In short, your buffs are not...
You discount barkskin, which can be activated as a swift action, and a buff with a duration measured in hours?
Do we discount the barbarian's rage and rage powers when running comparisons?
Do we assume the fighter is unarmored since we could be surprised in the middle of the night?
Do we assume casters have no spells since nothing precast is considered and the fight might be over before they do manage to cast anything?
Lastly...the one thing those others can't do...is be a monk. Some people want to play monks. *shrug* I won't argue this class is better at this, that class is better at that stuff...people who play monks want to play monks, not bards, or inquisitors, or fighters...or whatever.
Yes! That's right, we do! and part of playing a monk is doing the stuff a monk is MEANT to do:
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it’s least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.
And you know what? The mechanics of the class cannot do this with any regularity.
It's got problems with MAD...and to make an effective monk, you really have to decide how...and be prepared to do what you weren't actually prepared to do.
Exactly! This is what we have been saying from the start!
Meh...it's playable...they have *some* awesome abilities...but trying to out-do any particular class is not going to be the thing to do.
That depends how you define playable. If being the party's weakest link by far is playable, then sure. If you think playable means being able to contribute effectively as part of the team, then it's a whole lot tougher.
Everyone will have the DR/_ problem, DR/Good can be overcome with a Holy Amulet of MF, no enhancement bonus needed if he can't afford it. DR/Slashing can be overridden with Boar Style, which is a good way to add bonus damage to unarmed monks anyway.
So you just need to spend more feats than anyone else and nerf your attacks and damage by another +2 compared to everyone on top of your existing problems. You'll get through DR fine then, but only hit them once in a blue moon.
Not at all. If you want a class that's a top end fighter, play a fighter...a barbarian...or maybe a paladin or a ranger. Monks are for players that want to play monks. If they were top-end fighters AND could do all the stuff that monks do, they'd be overpowered.
This I can agree with. However I would like the monk to at least be on the same playing field as the fighter in terms of being able to fight. That way enemies cannot simply ignore him. It's not that I want the monk to be as good as the fighter at fighting, I just want him to be effective enough at it that he can pull his weight.
Well...he didn't have too much trouble hitting the dragon. I don't know what it needed to make the save. It was better than 1 in 400.
Indeed not, it would have had to be at least 1 in 20, because a natural 1 always fails. That's how I stunned a devil once ... at level 13, it was the 8th time stunning fist had stunned a foe since 1st level.
Way I hear it, you're supposed to use your movement to get into flurry position on targets other characters can't.
Problem with this theory is that once you are in flurry position, but before you can flurry, the enemy gets to full attack YOU. For the monk's MAD, and d8 hit dice, if you are a defensive monk you might live long enough to get one flurry in, but said flurry will not be very effective as you have to nerf damage to boost defence. Or you could just die.
I don't know why you would want to, but I know why I tried one as my second PFS character.
{cool monk stuff}
Very cool.
Expect to be told that your experience doesn't count...because...you know...numbers.
Still...rock on. :)
Why would we do that? Monk's are OK at come levels, and when built right can be reasonable. Problem is it gets very situational (and PFS scenarios tend to stick to those situations, they play to monk strengths), John F has used one of the few designs that don't suck too badly, and combines it with good equipment choices and good tactics. Good for him. It doesn't change the fact that the class as a whole is still weak, especially if you don't have those equipment choices and face a foe against which those tactics do not work.
Notice he says that his character helps by zipping around tripping and flanking. Can the classes who put out more damage by his own admission(barbarians and fighters) also trip and flank? Yes, in fact the fighter has way more feats for it and the barbarian will consistently have a higher CMB because his strength is higher. Both will move fast enough to provide a flank partner most of the time the exceptions would be when the rogue wandered off into the middle of nowhere in the fight in which case he's probably dead already and thus not your problem.
^ This ^
I still don't understand why it's such a pain to add some "Mystical Ki Focusing Armwraps of Punching Good" to the game that work as magic weapons for unarmed strikes.
Because Paizo do not want to make the AoMF redundant.
I get that it's effectively "two weapons for the price of one" but Monks are basically forced to take a -2 on all attacks to attack effectively anyway, so this just balances that out somewhat as-is. It results in a net gain of "Flurry may actually kinda work like Full BaB when attacking".
The worst thing is that to get all their abilities, a monk using a weapon has to get the ki-focus property, effectively doubling the cost for the same enhancement bonus.
I really like the MoMS concept... But it loses FoB, and that's the one thing Monks have going for them.
Even if it had full BAB, it'd still be unable to fight unarmed, since AoMF become disproportionately expensive for them and they can't use armor to benefit from the Brawling enhancement... -.-'
The MoMS is basically tailor-made for a two-level dip by other classes.
We are not allowed to use archetypes created to address complaints about the class. (archetypes do not exist in core).
What makes you think the archetypes were made to address class deficiencies? The archetypes are to allow a class to be bent to fulfil another theme more effectively than the original class class, if it can do it at all. As they do not thematically agree with the original class, you aren't going to have people play them for the same reasons.
People want to play monks because they want to be Bruce Lee, or Caine from Kung Fu, and overcome armed oponants with nothing but their bare hands and dazzling skill - not because they want to be a polearm-swinging oriental mounted warrior. People will want to play the basic monk for it's thematic value.
The complaint is that the core monk - that is the monk from the core rulebook - is a weak class and needs improving. Even many of the archetypes are weak - take a Monk of the Healing Hand: it fulfils a theme (healing monk) but it doesn't actually function well at what it's meant to do. In fact it barely functions at all.
The premise of the thread was that monks are under powered. You don't have to beat any class to prove monks are competitive.
In the first place, the premise has been clarified to "core monks are underpowered, although some archetypes are OK." By using the sohei archetype you kind of confirmed that some archetypes are OK, and by complaining bitterly about being asked to use a core monk you have confirmed that the core monk is weak. What more are you trying to prove?
In the second place, to demonstrate that a class is competitive, you have to show what it can bring to a party that another class cannot.
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Neither of the builds you used as "benchmarks" from other classes had any relevant archetypes whatsoever. A Invulnerable Rager's primary ability is DR which is completely negligible because you aren't looking at the effective hit points he gets from having it because quite frankly it's a pain in the ass to calculate.
On top of that the benchmark you used for the barbarian was an antimage which is hardly a good example of how to min max a barbarian for dpr but is a much more potentially useful character in a party setting which again we aren't looking at.
Please feel free to post better builds.
I don't have to surpass anybody to prove monks are viable. All I have to show is monks are competitive. Since nobody is going to argue that the posted fighter and barbarian builds are not viable, I've already managed that.
In the first place, the premise has been clarified to "core monks are underpowered, although some archetypes are OK." By using the sohei archetype you kind of confirmed that some archetypes are OK, and by complaining bitterly about being asked to use a core monk you have confirmed that the core monk is weak. What more are you trying to prove?
In the second place, to demonstrate that a class is competitive, you have to show what it can bring to a party that another class cannot.
1. The original premise was monks in general. The premise was subsequently restricted to a specific sub-set of builds with restricted content available to address the issue.
2. I brought DPR since every other feature the class brings is simply hand-waved as trivial or not relevant. DPR builds are a straight up numerical analysis. The build was competitive using the only metric people cannot arbitrarily dismiss as being unimportant. The result: the entire build was dismissed and the rules changed from PFS legal to no archetypes and unarmed only.
Neither of the builds you used as "benchmarks" from other classes had any relevant archetypes whatsoever. A Invulnerable Rager's primary ability is DR which is completely negligible because you aren't looking at the effective hit points he gets from having it because quite frankly it's a pain in the ass to calculate.
On top of that the benchmark you used for the barbarian was an antimage which is hardly a good example of how to min max a barbarian for dpr but is a much more potentially useful character in a party setting which again we aren't looking at.
Please feel free to post better builds.
I don't have to surpass anybody to prove monks are viable. All I have to show is monks are competitive. Since nobody is going to argue that the posted fighter and barbarian builds are not viable, I've already managed that.
You have not proven monks are viable. You have proven the sohei archetype is viable, which everybody already agreed to. I don't know why you are still banging on about it.
1. The original premise was monks in general. The premise was subsequently restricted to a specific sub-set of builds with restricted content available to address the issue.In the first place, the premise has been clarified to "core monks are underpowered, although some archetypes are OK." By using the sohei archetype you kind of confirmed that some archetypes are OK, and by complaining bitterly about being asked to use a core monk you have confirmed that the core monk is weak. What more are you trying to prove?
In the second place, to demonstrate that a class is competitive, you have to show what it can bring to a party that another class cannot.
Congratulations, in the original premise you proved that a single archetype is viable.
<applauds>
However, this is not all monks, and the refined premise (our bad if we were not specific enough about what we meant originally) is to take a core monk and see if they can be viable. Personally I don't care about other content as long as it is PFS legal and you start with a core monk. Go get 'em!
2. I brought DPR since every other feature the class brings is simply hand-waved as trivial or not relevant. DPR builds are a straight up numerical analysis. The build was competitive using the only metric people cannot arbitrarily dismiss as being unimportant. The result: the entire build was dismissed and the rules changed from PFS legal to no archetypes and unarmed only.
And it was good, I was impressed. But it didn't resolve the matter I was interested in resolving.
I agree, DPR is important, but it's not the be-all and end-all. I'd like to compare all factors, buffed and unbuffed (and remember enemy casters can spam dispel magic as well as PC casters, so being debuffed is a distinct possibility).
I still don't understand why it's such a pain to add some "Mystical Ki Focusing Armwraps of Punching Good" to the game that work as magic weapons for unarmed strikes.IIRC, Paizo errata'd the Amulet of Mighty Fists to be much cheaper.
They reduced the price to double what a weapon with the enhancement bonus would cost, rather than 2.5 times.
It's still really expensive for any character who is only using Unarmed Strike, and now an even better buy for druids and summoners who are getting multiple natural attacks.
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But that is a horrible monk. Equal Charisma and Wis? Seriously?It had higher CHA in order to use Intimidating Prowess and Enforcer in order to capitalize on Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, and Medusa's Wrath.
Which is making MAD even more mad, so certainly not a baseline build.
Let's move a few things around to get a more "normal" core build.
Monk 8
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +13
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Defense
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AC 21 , touch 19, flat-footed 19 (+2 armor, + 2 Dex, +2 Monk AC, +3 Wis, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 60 (8d8+8+8 Toughness)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +11 (+2 vs. enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Evasion, Deflect Arrows
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +14/+9 (1d10+7/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows (+14/+14/+9/+9) w/ki (+14/+14/+14/+9/+9)
Power attack -2 attack +4 damage on all attacks.
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Statistics
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Str 22 (15+2 (human) +1 4th), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16 (15+1 8th), Cha 9
Base Atk +6; CMB +14; CMD +23
Feats (In Order!): 1 Toughness; 1 Extra Ki; 1 Dodge; 2 Deflect Arrows; 3 Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike); 5 Power Attack; 6 Mobility; 7 Spring Attack;
Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (stealth), Reactionary
Skills: (5 Per level) Perception +13(7+3+3), Stealth (7+3+3) +13, Sense Motive (7+3+3) + 13, Acrobatics (7+3+2) +11, Knowledge (history and Religion) (7+3+0) +10 for Both.
Other Gear Belt of Strength +4: 16,000, Bracers of Armor +2 4,000, Cloak of Resistance +2 4,000gp, Ring of protection +1 2,000gp,; Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 All gold spent
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Special Abilities
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Flurry of Blows: Fight like TWF w/level as BAB +6/+6/+1/+1
Fast Movement: +20ft
Unarmed Strike: 1d10+7
Stunning Fist: Save DC 17
Evasion: No damage on successful reflex save
Ki Pool: 9
Slow Fall: 40ft
Wholeness of Body: 8 hit points for 2 Ki.
Changed some of the feats, moved some of the ability scores, swapped +3 Bracers for +2 Bracers and got an AoMF. Swapped a trait and actually filled out the skills, and special abilities.
AC is 3 higher, Hit and damage are 1 higher, has more Ki from both Wisdom and the feat (9 Ki points total), can still spring attack and now has power attack as an option.
EDIT: I removed the Amulet of Natural Armor and replaced it with a handy haversack...because it was the same price and it seems reasonable to do so. -1 to regular and flat footed AC, everything else I believe is the same. Correct me if I am wrong.
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To be clear, I still think a bump to unarmed is warrented, but that was just core. I personally would have gone with grapple and something else rather than spring attack and mobility, but I didn't want to mess with the build too much, as that isn't a bad concept.
So the DPR I believe is (please check my math...)
Reg = 30.85
PA = 34.25
Reg w/Ki = 40.13
Reg PA w Ki = 44.88
Chance of stun vs high save is = 18%
Chance of stun vs low save is = 32%
Chance of stun on a charge vs high save is = 20%
Chance of stun on a charge vs low save is = 36%
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Edit: Doesn't seem to be a point now that Ciretose is building a "proper" monk too. but is an amulet of health and amulet of mighty fists combo "legal"?
Brother Random, Partially Constructed Human Monk 8
Initiative +1. Perception +14.
AC 20 (+3 bracers of armor, +1 ring of protection, +1 Dexterity, +2 monk levels, +3 Wisdom)
Hit Dice:
Saving Throws: Fort +9, Reflex +9, Will +11 (+13 vs enchantment)
SQ evasion, fast movement (50 feet), high jump, ki pool (7 points), purity of body (immune to disease), slow fall (40 feet), wholeness of body
Offense
Speed 50 feet
SA flurry of blows, ki strike (emulates magic, cold iron, silver), stunning fist (DC 17), unarmed strike (1d10)
Nope, I missed that. Will need to correct.
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Feel free to switch it out. Spring Attack is pretty much a "trap option" for a monk.
I kind of want to allow everyone to play mix and match with the various builds.
While Spring attack can be a trap option, it can also be really useful in some encounters where you want to stay out of full attack range but perhaps try and do things like disarm or stun.
It's a way to play a monk, so if others would swap it, they can. I don't think it effects the numbers that much, at least for core only builds. You could also take some ranged things like deadly aim and point blank for shruiken fun. That is more flavor on the margins.
For S and G's I ran the numbers for my suggestion for giving monks weapon training unarmed. At 8th, it would be a +1 to hit and damage so DPR would go
Reg = 36.05
PA = 39.85
Reg w/Ki = 46.75
Reg PA w Ki = 52
Chance of stun vs high save is = 18.8%
Chance of stun vs low save is = 33.8%
Chance of stun on a charge vs high save is = 21.3%
Chance of stun on a charge vs low save is = 38.3%
But that is also a bit misleading as it goes up at 9th. Numbers for thought.