True it could be used, but at 700 gold a dose I don't see it realistically being used often by anyone.
True it could be used, but at 700 gold a dose I don't see it realistically being used often by anyone.
NPCs can use them, but I'm not big on giving npcs an advantage like that.
Tell you what. I have a human level 8 monk build completed. No archetype. Unarmed. Standard wbl. I did use the full range of available gear, traits and feats.
I will post it after people tell at what numerical values they will concede I am correct. No more moving the goalpost.
I am willing to put up or shut up, are you?
I think it would be fair to compare against a TWF (Ranger or fighter). I would be glad if that monk do 80% of DPR and have 80% the AC.
it also have to have equal or better saves, particulary will saves.
It should not have less skill points than a fighter.
No two dump stats (something is wrong if you have to dup two stats to be viable, not to mention who want to play an ugly and stupid monk?)
I need exact numbers for this one. I want the goalpost nailed down. I am reasonably sure I can meet the DPR and AC criteria.
(On stats: we are talking highly optimized, min/max builds. If it is a legal build, use it. My build meets the previously stated conditions. No more moving goalposts.)
Do the best you can. Look at it as you wanting to take the barbarian's spot as the 5th member on the team. When it comes to fighting the party should say man that monk sure was useful against most of these monsters.
Monster will include brutes like giants and elements.
Flyers.
Monsters with special attacks, such as gaze, or those that work like shadows.
Caster types also. They don't need caster levels, but they will be the type to rely on SU's and spells to make you have a bad day.
APL should be should be from APL-2 to APL+2, just like we did in the 13th level thread.
I am about to get something to eat, but I will do the barbarian build unless someone else wants to do it.
And the numbers for a raging barbarian, and one that is not raging, if I dont have enough rage to last for 4 fights. I am sure that by level 8 12 to 16 rounds of rage won't be an issue though.
edit:changed info
|
OK - I'll post a level 10 version of Brother Brian.
This is my 2nd PFS character; I could do somewhat better nowadays (for a start, I'd probably use the Maneuver Master archetype, and maybe some style feats). But I've had a lot of fun playing him for the last year.
He's conceptually more like a more nimble Friar Tuck than a martial artist, and he's built to adventure alongside my wife's rogue (which is why we have teamwork feats). When he levels up after two more tables he'll be:
STR 14
DEX 25 (16, +2 human, +1 at level 4, +6 from belt)
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 16 (13, +1 at level 8, +2 from ioun stone)
CHA 10
HP 63
Fort 7
Ref. 14
Will 10
AC 27 (31 with Mobility)
CMB 17 (19 Trip)
CMD 34 (36 Trip)
Flurry +15/15/10/10 for 1d10+7 (unarmed)
Acrobatics: +20 (25 if using daredevil boots)
Perception: +16
Initiative: +7
- - - - -
Monk Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Trip, Mobility
Teamwork Feats: Lookout, Outflank
Other Feats: Weapon Finesse, Vicious Stomp, Agile Maneuvers, Step Up
Extra Feat: Blind Fight (ioun stone resonant power)
Traits: Child of the Streets, Dirty Fighter
Magic Items:
Amulet of Agile Fists
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6
Bracers of Armor +2
Daredevil Boots
Ioun Stone (Incandescent Blue Sphere) in Wayfinder
Ring of Protection +2
Pearl of Power (2nd level) to lend to spellcasters
and a grab-bag of potions (fly, gaseous form, good hope, haste, ...)
Total value of gear, etc., just a shade under 75,000gp
The most expensive item, by far, is the belt of dexterity (36,000gp)
He doesn't do a lot of damage, but if he and the rogue get through and flank the BBEG spellcaster in the back row they can really spoil his day.
True it could be used, but at 700 gold a dose I don't see it realistically being used often by anyone.NPCs can use them, but I'm not big on giving npcs an advantage like that.
Can the NPC afford it, and have it fit under the NPC wealth suggestion chart? If so it's fair game.
A level 9 NPC has 1,050 gp in its limited use budget so it should be able to afford it, but it takes away from other items he might have. Unless he is an assassin type I would not expect for him to put that much into one item.
|
If folks are just throwing builds out there, I would love to see one that:
I've tried backwards engineering the Grove Guardian from the NPC Codex to try and make the monk I actually want to play work after my last one crashed and burned horribly(literally failing at most of the stuff he was supposed to be good at), but the feedback on that particular NPC example was fairly discouraging. Especially when it was the closest monk in that book to what I actually want, flavor-wise.
Here is the level 10 monk I came up with. Strategy is of course to trip using ki throw to help reposition them for the party fighter to get a full-attack off. Vicious stomp is just gravy. I spent all gold to the last drop. You could drop the headband and buy some magic shurikens or something to deal with fliers/other things you can't melee.
Edit: I think this guy meets (as best as possible) Mikaze's criteria.
Edit2: Not sure how it is giving me a +16 for my Unarmed, but then a +17 for flurry. Anyone enlighten me?
Race: Human
Classes: Monk10
Hit Points: 58
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Speed: Walk 60 ft.
Languages: Celestial, Common, Protean
Stat Score Mod
STR 10 (+0)
DEX 24 (+7)
CON 10 (+0)
INT 14 (+2)
WIS 16 (+3)
CHA 10 (+0)
-------------------------- Skills --------------------------
Skill Total Rnk Stat Msc
Acrobatics 20 10.0 7 3
Acrobatics (Jump) 42 10.0 7 25
Escape Artist 20 10.0 7 3
Perception 16 10.0 3 3
Sense Motive 16 10.0 3 3
Stealth 20 10.0 7 3
Survival 13 10.0 3 0
-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
In order:
Agile Maneuvers
Bonus: Combat Reflexes
Bonus: Dodge
Combat Expertise
Vicious Stomp
Bonus: Improved Trip
Ki Throw
Greater Trip
Bonus: Improved Critical(Unarmed)
-------------------------- Combat --------------------------
Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 28 / 25 / 21
Initiative: +9
BAB: +7/+2
Melee tohit: +7/+2
Ranged tohit: +14/+9
Fortitude: +10
Reflex: +17
Will: +13
Unarmed attack:
to hit: +16/+11
damage: 1d10+2
critical: 19-20/x2
Flurry of Blows:
to hit: +17/+17/+17/+12
damage: 1d10+2
critical: 19-20/x2
CMB: 17(21 for trip)
CMD: 32(34 vs trip)
------------------------- Equipment ------------------------
Name QTY LBS
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1(Agile) 1 0lbs
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 1 1lbs
Bracers of Armor +3 1 1lbs
Ring of Protection +2 1 0lbs
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4 1 1lbs
Cloak of Resistance +3 1 1lbs
Outfit (Monk's) 1 2lbs
Flurry of Blows 1 0lbs
Total weight carried:
Current load: Light
Encumbrance
Light: 33
Medium: 66
Heavy: 100
Doesn't wind up looking like Flavor Flav, weighed down by a bunch of aesthetics-destroying gear
I think this analogy is kinda dated (seriously, when was the last you heard about Flavor Flav?) but still amusing in a sadly true sort of way.
|
At 10+ level it does not seems unfair to me.True it could be used, but at 700 gold a dose I don't see it realistically being used often by anyone.NPCs can use them, but I'm not big on giving npcs an advantage like that.
I also think people forget how poisons work, specifically the frequency bit...
The most expensive item, by far, is the belt of dexterity (36,000gp)
Only 2 problems I have with this build being posted for comparison. 1) You blow WBL for level 10, should be 62,000. 2) The belt costs 36,000. Which is more than 50% of your WBL, blowing WBL guidelines again.
If folks are just throwing builds out there, I would love to see one that:
Is unarmed and unarmored, allowing for a ranged secondary option that's aesthetically fitting. Human Doesn't dumpstat anything below 10. Focuses on DEX more than STR, relying more on agility and grace than brute strength. Doesn't wind up looking like Flavor Flav, weighed down by a bunch of aesthetics-destroying gear And can perform up to par throughout a Pathfinder AP. I've tried backwards engineering the Grove Guardian from the NPC Codex to try and make the monk I actually want to play work after my last one crashed and burned horribly(literally failing at most of the stuff he was supposed to be good at), but the feedback on that particular NPC example was fairly discouraging. Especially when it was the closest monk in that book to what I actually want, flavor-wise.
Really? People don't even recommend DEX rogue for combat. How do you expect anyone to make a DEX monk?
I consider anything below an 8 dump stating.
Regardless I know how to build the monk you want.
Throw together any-build that fits your criteria (except for the last one) take blind-fight and throw on the vampire template. What do you do in the sun? Cover yourself in black cloth and play the blind monk with your ridiculously high perception check. Get diehard so you can use wholeness of body while gaseous and ignore the hour wait in your coffin.
Now instead of being UP your OP
I also think people forget how poisons work, specifically the frequency bit...At 10+ level it does not seems unfair to me.True it could be used, but at 700 gold a dose I don't see it realistically being used often by anyone.NPCs can use them, but I'm not big on giving npcs an advantage like that.
You mean that poisons work for more than one round?
|
TLDR---The core monk suffers against AP's and stock monsters. It either hurts for defense or offense.
If it brings the pain it gets smacked in the face. If it can not be hit the monster goes for a target that is easier to hit. Finding a middle ground is hard to do. <---Issues with unarmed strike based monks.
So what is your acceptable balance where the monk is considered a good class at 8th level.
I need numbers. No moving the goalpost.
Really? People don't even recommend DEX rogue for combat. How do you expect anyone to make a DEX monk?
If Agile is available then low strength + high dex is very valid for melee, especially for the Monk who now has one less stat to worry about.
|
|
You mean that poisons work for more than one round?I also think people forget how poisons work, specifically the frequency bit...At 10+ level it does not seems unfair to me.True it could be used, but at 700 gold a dose I don't see it realistically being used often by anyone.NPCs can use them, but I'm not big on giving npcs an advantage like that.
You mean that poisons work for more than one round?I also think people forget how poisons work, specifically the frequency bit...At 10+ level it does not seems unfair to me.True it could be used, but at 700 gold a dose I don't see it realistically being used often by anyone.NPCs can use them, but I'm not big on giving npcs an advantage like that.
They work for more than one round and multiple saves if you fail the first. Its very possible to die from a poison after combat if you don't carry a way to cure it. At later levels its not as much of a pain to keep a few scrolls of "Save life" on you.
I mean like what part about that in particular are you referring to. You were kinda vague before.
|
|
Really? People don't even recommend DEX rogue for combat. How do you expect anyone to make a DEX monk?If Agile is available then low strength + high dex is very valid for melee, especially for the Monk who now has one less stat to worry about.
DEX + agile is very good for defensive monk builds (which people on the forum claim is under powered since it fails the only non-subjective test available.)
For offensive builds, there are very good reasons to go STR based.
Really? People don't even recommend DEX rogue for combat. How do you expect anyone to make a DEX monk?If Agile is available then low strength + high dex is very valid for melee, especially for the Monk who now has one less stat to worry about.DEX + agile is very good for defensive monk builds (which people on the forum claim is under powered since it fails the only non-subjective test available.)
For offensive builds, there are very good reasons to go STR based.
Could you give me some reasons why straight Strength would be better? The only things that occurred to me were that a Strength build would let you have a +5 AoMF and keep you from having to take Agile Maneuvers if you were using maneuvers.
I mean like what part about that in particular are you referring to. You were kinda vague before.It was that people don't seem to realize a poison doesn't always just hit you once and then you deal with it after combat if the cleric memorized the right spell.
Jason said its expected to carry around a few scrolls to help that out, or even a wand! Wands and scrolls are great for things you expect to use once in a long while or often with no DC.
|
|
Could you give me some reasons why straight Strength would be better? The only things that occurred to me were that a Strength build would let you have a +5 AoMF and keep you from having to take Agile Maneuvers if you were using maneuvers.Really? People don't even recommend DEX rogue for combat. How do you expect anyone to make a DEX monk?If Agile is available then low strength + high dex is very valid for melee, especially for the Monk who now has one less stat to worry about.DEX + agile is very good for defensive monk builds (which people on the forum claim is under powered since it fails the only non-subjective test available.)
For offensive builds, there are very good reasons to go STR based.
1. Feats allow 1.5 STR bonus applied to unarmed attacks. Not an option for DEX.
2. Lower to-hit and damage. It is only 1 point but it lowers DPRAt the level range we have been discussing, a monk will only have enough gold to purchase either an agile AoMF or a +1 AoMF.
1. Feats allow 1.5 STR applied to unarmed attacks. Not an option for DEX.
2. Lower to-hit and damage. It is only 1 point but it lowers DPRAt the level range we have been discussing, a monk will only have enough gold to purchase either an agile AoMF or a +1 AoMF.
Why does dex force a lower to-hit?
As a bonus, your ranged weapons have the same to-hit.
|
|
The most expensive item, by far, is the belt of dexterity (36,000gp)Only 2 problems I have with this build being posted for comparison. 1) You blow WBL for level 10, should be 62,000. 2) The belt costs 36,000. Which is more than 50% of your WBL, blowing WBL guidelines again.
In that case, just knock it down to a +4 version; that takes 20K off the total. He's only just picked up the upgrade (when he made level 9 he still only had the +4 belt). It's a PFS character, and he's got the appropriate amount of fame to buy the item, so AFAIK it's PFS-legal.
That takes 1 off the to hit, damage, and AC.
|
|
1. Feats allow 1.5 STR applied to unarmed attacks. Not an option for DEX.
2. Lower to-hit and damage. It is only 1 point but it lowers DPRAt the level range we have been discussing, a monk will only have enough gold to purchase either an agile AoMF or a +1 AoMF.
Why does dex force a lower to-hit?
As a bonus, your ranged weapons have the same to-hit.
If your purchasing the agile property, your giving up a +1 enhancement bonus.
1. Feats allow 1.5 STR bonus applied to unarmed attacks. Not an option for DEX.
The way Agile is worded could possibly mean that you get the 1.5 Dex to damage with Dragon Style, though it is ambiguous; Dragon Style gives you 1.5 times Strength for damage and Agile replaces Strength for damage with Dexterity.
As for the original post, underpowered is a point of perspective. Monks can have the spotlight too, but only if the GM shares it. (Then again, the game being played is only as good as the GM running it).
I can see how some folks probably never have the thought of "Man, we could really use a monk right now." But at the table, you should be a team (unless blatantly roleplaying otherwise). If someone is performing up to par, help him out and get him up to speed! Things look and feel much better when working as a team. Nobody remembers the A-Guy, but they remember the A-Team
Here is the level 10 monk I came up with. Strategy is of course to trip using ki throw to help reposition them for the party fighter to get a full-attack off. Vicious stomp is just gravy. I spent all gold to the last drop. You could drop the headband and buy some magic shurikens or something to deal with fliers/other things you can't melee.
Edit: I think this guy meets (as best as possible) Mikaze's criteria.
Edit2: Not sure how it is giving me a +16 for my Unarmed, but then a +17 for flurry. Anyone enlighten me?
Reposting this with correct stats: Apparently PCGen has bugs with flurry. These stats should all be correct.
Race: Human
Classes: Monk10
Hit Points: 58
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Speed: Walk 60 ft.
Languages: Celestial, Common, Protean
Stat Score Mod
STR 10 (+0)
DEX 24 (+7)
CON 10 (+0)
INT 14 (+2)
WIS 16 (+3)
CHA 10 (+0)
-------------------------- Skills --------------------------
Skill Total Rnk Stat Msc
Acrobatics 20 10.0 7 3
Acrobatics (Jump) 42 10.0 7 25
Escape Artist 20 10.0 7 3
Perception 16 10.0 3 3
Sense Motive 16 10.0 3 3
Stealth 20 10.0 7 3
Survival 13 10.0 3 0
-------------------------- Feats ---------------------------
In order:
Agile Maneuvers
Bonus: Combat Reflexes
Bonus: Dodge
Combat Expertise
Vicious Stomp
Bonus: Improved Trip
Ki Throw
Greater Trip
Bonus: Improved Critical(Unarmed)
-------------------- Traits ---------------------
Adopted(Elf):Elf Trait: Warrior of Old
Bullied
-------------------------- Combat --------------------------
Total / Touch / Flat Footed
AC: 28 / 25 / 21
Initiative: +9
BAB: +7/+2
Melee tohit: +7/+2
Ranged tohit: +14/+9
Fortitude: +10
Reflex: +17
Will: +13
Unarmed attack:
to hit: +15/+10
damage: 1d10+8
critical: 19-20/x2
Flurry of Blows:
to hit: +16/+16/+11/+11
damage: 1d10+8
critical: 19-20/x2
CMB +17 (+22 trip); CMD 24 (28 vs. trip)
------------------------- Equipment ------------------------
Name QTY LBS
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1(Agile) 1 0lbs
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 1 1lbs
Bracers of Armor +3 1 1lbs
Ring of Protection +2 1 0lbs
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4 1 1lbs
Cloak of Resistance +3 1 1lbs
Total weight carried:
Current load: Light
Encumbrance
Light: 33
Medium: 66
Heavy: 100
The way Agile is worded could possibly mean that you get the 1.5 Dex to damage with Dragon Style, though it is ambiguous; Dragon Style gives you 1.5 times Strength for damage and Agile replaces Strength for damage with Dexterity.1. Feats allow 1.5 STR bonus applied to unarmed attacks. Not an option for DEX.
That way agile is worded it does not replace str for all cases, and it does not give you 1.5, even thought it is a reasonable house rule. I think it should have been written that way, but it does not per RAW and most likely RAI. I think they were worried about it becoming the default method.
TLDR---The core monk suffers against AP's and stock monsters. It either hurts for defense or offense.
If it brings the pain it gets smacked in the face. If it can not be hit the monster goes for a target that is easier to hit. Finding a middle ground is hard to do. <---Issues with unarmed strike based monks.
So what is your acceptable balance where the monk is considered a good class at 8th level.
I need numbers. No moving the goalpost.
Sighs. I don't move goalpost. I have been saying the same thing for the past few pages.
You just get those numbers as high as you can if you plan on playing a frontliner with the monk.
If you plan on being an all around monk which I dont think you are then you have more leeway to not hit as hard.
If all you insist on number then we should go to level 10 because I have number for level 10 availible. I don't have that data on level 8 builds.
Your target numbers are AC 22 with a DPR of 80+
OR maybe an AC of around 28 to 30 while doing 65ish points of damage.
Now each attack has to be able to keep a target's attention even when dealing with DR. So getting 20000 attacks that add up to big number, but are negated by DR won't do you much good.
With all of this being said if you can't handle will and fort saves that will also be looked at. I chose those two because failing a will or fort save can take you out of the fight.
Having a 70 percent chance of passing one and a 60 percent chance of passing the DC for an ability used against you from an APL=CR level opponent should be possible. I prefer higher, but I think 60 is ok.
For these numbers we will use the monster creation chart before we put the builds up again actual monsters. Passing the math test means nothing if you can't perform in the game.
See and you thought we were all about the numbers. :)
Now since you are insisting on a DPR build you wont be expected to do a whole not else. If you miss the target numbers then you will be expected to make up for it somewhere else.
As for the original post, underpowered is a point of perspective. Monks can have the spotlight too, but only if the GM shares it. (Then again, the game being played is only as good as the GM running it).
I can see how some folks probably never have the thought of "Man, we could really use a monk right now." But at the table, you should be a team (unless blatantly roleplaying otherwise). If someone is performing up to par, help him out and get him up to speed! Things look and feel much better when working as a team. Nobody remembers the A-Guy, but they remember the A-Team
If the class performed well and the GM runs a balanced game he wont have to create chances for it to shine.
How exactly would one get the monk up to speed?
Zen Archer is clearly the best Monk Archetype. it can flurry from over 110 feet away with very few penalties.
well, an archery focused Sohei can get more attacks at much lower bonuses.
|
|
The way Agile is worded could possibly mean that you get the 1.5 Dex to damage with Dragon Style, though it is ambiguous; Dragon Style gives you 1.5 times Strength for damage and Agile replaces Strength for damage with Dexterity.1. Feats allow 1.5 STR bonus applied to unarmed attacks. Not an option for DEX.
Previous rulings on DEX to damage have gone the other way.
I've got a big enough argument in this thread without going into rules interpretations..
i'd give the monk
7 Cha 13 int 14 Con 11 Str
but then
i would have preferred the following 20 point array with a monk
Str 17 (15+2)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 7
If Onispawn were allowed
Wis 16 (14+2)
Cha 5 (7-2)
i don't care that my DM would reject the 5 charisma, i would look for an excuse to play it up as a wise jerkass who quotes proverb on the fly insultingly.
HP is rather low for a front liner even with a solid AC(albiet not a fantastic one) which is worrisome, and even worse level 1 HP is very very low. I'd be concerned about his ability to live through the low levels without getting hammered by a lucky high roll although this isn't a monk only problem.
Damage per hit is also concerningly low in the event of DR he has a lot of trouble adding any significant damage.
Against some of those he can rely on tripping/throwing which is a plus but against anything untrippable with DR (say a flying demon, or some sort of serpent/golem) he might have a distinctly unfun time particularly since against fliers he can neither do damage or combat maneuvers.
I'd suggest trading for the shurikens so he has some ranged combat ability and tank Cha to a 7 and knock Int. to a 13 to get a 14 in Con.
I'm not disagreeing with any of your points. Can we make his damage per hit higher without trading something else equally important?
Can we get his HP higher without trading something important?Just was thinking of something, can a monk who takes catch-off guard use improvised arrows with various enhancements to get around DR?
Hmmmm
|
|
Zen Archer is clearly the best Monk Archetype. it can flurry from over 110 feet away with very few penalties.
well, an archery focused Sohei can get more attacks at much lower bonuses.
I posted a sohei that met all stated criteria at that point in the thread.
The criteria was changed to unarmed with no archetypes.
I've got my build meeting the new criteria and have requested people post hard numbers. Without hard numbers posted in advance it does not matter how good my build, the goalpost will be set higher.
Zen Archer is clearly the best Monk Archetype. it can flurry from over 110 feet away with very few penalties.
well, an archery focused Sohei can get more attacks at much lower bonuses.
I posted a sohei that met all stated criteria at that point in the thread.
The criteria was changed to unarmed with no archetypes.
I've got my build meeting the new criteria and have requested people post hard numbers. Without hard numbers posted in advance it does not matter how good my build, the goalpost will be set higher.
everybody always has to move the goalpost
not every class is an Archery Fighter or a Pouncing 2HW Barbarian
some people take slightly inferior options
or want to do stuff other than kill stuff
you don't need to be an ubercharger or archer to kick arse.
|
|
Reposting this with correct stats: Apparently PCGen has bugs with flurry. These stats should all be correct.** spoiler omitted **...
Thanks, gonna give this guy a close look.
Unfortunately due to its lack of appearance in any books outside PFS pdfs and the local perception of it being overpowered, I don't think Agile is something I can't count on getting 100%, but it's certainly something that's been weighing on my mind.
I really wish it had turned up in Ultimate Equipment. I mean, non-monks got Brawling after all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
everybody always has to move the goalpost
not every class is an Archery Fighter or a Pouncing 2HW Barbarian
some people take slightly inferior options
So you agree that it's an inferior option...you just don't care and have no interest in seeing it fixed?
Good to know, but please don't try to ruin it for those of us who DON'T want Monk to stay as an inferior option.
Crap, somehow missed weapon finesse in there at 1st level as the human bonus feat. Correct feat list:
1Level Agile Maneuvers
1Human Weapon Finesse
1Monk Combat Reflexes
2Monk Dodge
3Level Combat Expertise
5Level Vicious Stomp
6Monk Imp Trip
7Level Ki Throw
9Level Greater Trip
10Monk Imp. Crit(Unarmed)
Hard to trade out Imp. Crit when it was received via monk bonus feat. With no method for making enemies shaken medusa's wrath is lackluster, and the rest of the feat options are worthless. Might as well double chances of critting.
Dragon Ferocity will let you make people shaken for 1d4+Str rounds after using Stunning Fist on them (in addition to other effects) but as you're Dex based it won't help you.
everybody always has to move the goalpost
not every class is an Archery Fighter or a Pouncing 2HW Barbarian
some people take slightly inferior options
So you agree that it's an inferior option...you just don't care and have no interest in seeing it fixed?
Good to know, but please don't try to ruin it for those of us who DON'T want Monk to stay as an inferior option.
i do want to see the monk fixed.
i just want to see it fixed in ways besides beefing up the numbers. such as Ashiel's Rewrite.
now, giving it Psionic manifesting like Ashiel did, is plenty a sufficient fix.
just slap over the manifesting progression of the psionic warrior wholesale.
numbers bloat only leads to an unneccessary arms race that never ends and hinders pseudomartials
i would also give the fighter, the manifesting progression of the gifted blade soulknife archetype, 4+int modifier skill points, and the ability to apply it's weapon specific bonuses to all weapons as long as it retains a single power point.
Personally, I LOVE Ashiel's fix but I'd also like to see that as a second class akin to a "Ki Mystic" (not the archetype) alongside a more physical focused bareknuckle brawler character.
If I had to choose between the two though, yeah Ashiel's Psionic Monk thing would be great.