Why do people keep saying monks are underpowered?


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Sovereign Court

Monks are fun - but are a bit weak, difficult to build/play well, and are definitely fifth wheel characters. (much like bards - they're useful to the group - but don't fill any of the four classic roles)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Monks are fun - but are a bit weak, difficult to build/play well, and are definitely fifth wheel characters. (much like bards - they're useful to the group - but don't fill any of the four classic roles)

I thought bards made fantastic skill monkeys and party faces? Perform is nifty, but I always had the most fun with spell casting and skills with a bard. At worst I have trouble figuring out what to do in combat with one, but I think that's a personal problem.

Monks on the other hand I feel are much more of a 5th wheel. Not much of a skill monkey. Not the best fighter around. They also take a lot of system mastery to make fantastic. I have much more trouble playing a monk than a bard. They feel highly situational sometimes too, which doesn't help.


Right, we are comparing core book classes(i.e. no archetypes), but still allowing feats/items/etc from all the paizo books.


Kimera757 wrote:
Ciretose wrote:
I personally would have gone with grapple and something else rather than spring attack and mobilit
Feel free to switch it out. Spring Attack is pretty much a "trap option" for a monk.

I was trying to stay away from maneuvers, as the idea is an unarmed monk to fight. Since quite a few of the sample monsters posted were incorporeal, being maneuver focused will hurt you bad when things like that show up. And the higher level you go, the less maneuvers are likely to hold their own.

As far as spring attack, change it out if you want. No worries there. I'm wondering why we are fixed at level 8 instead of 10 like most build comparisons.


The first "proper" monk in this thread was 8th-level, IIRC, and I think someone said that's when unique class abilities start appearing.

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:
Ciretose wrote:
I personally would have gone with grapple and something else rather than spring attack and mobilit
Feel free to switch it out. Spring Attack is pretty much a "trap option" for a monk.

I was trying to stay away from maneuvers, as the idea is an unarmed monk to fight. Since quite a few of the sample monsters posted were incorporeal, being maneuver focused will hurt you bad when things like that show up. And the higher level you go, the less maneuvers are likely to hold their own.

As far as spring attack, change it out if you want. No worries there. I'm wondering why we are fixed at level 8 instead of 10 like most build comparisons.

We can go up to Level 10. Leveling is easy once you have the baseline. Any comment on what I posted?


Artanthos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Still waiting on a build and instructions on how to play this monk.

The instructions are simple:

1. Your opponent gets to define what is legal for your build. He also gets to define what is legal for his build.

2. If you find anything that works, your not allowed to use it.

3. Math does not matter, only the size of certain numbers. Single large attacks are always more impressive than lots of mediocre attacks.

4. If, by some chance, there is a danger of proving your opponent wrong, he gets to change the rules.

The commonly held point of view is that monks suck. Nothing, including good builds or math, will be permitted to challenge that point of view. It might mean people are wrong.

Actually as I am stating for the 1000th time monks suck barring certain archetypes.

So ONCE AGAIN we agree that certain archetypes make a monk playable.
If you agree press type "1" in your next response.

The point being made is that most monk archetypes to include the core monk suck.
If you agree type "2" in your next response.

If you disagree type "0" and show us a build that proves us wrong, and provide tactics.

Also we don't expect any monk to match the fighter or barbarian for DPR. <--read this 3 times if you have to.

We do expect that if you can't match a certain DPR that you can contribute in other ways, that I can't just easily say, "well why not use class X since it does more damage and ____ also"

Those bolded areas are ones of primary concern. They have been made every monk thread. I am failing to see why you have not noticed them.

But now you know about them. Now you might want to accuse me of just making this up, but I can find quotes from other monk threads if needed.

If you need such quotes type "3".

Now do you understand the criteria? If you do then type "4".

If the not type "0" and explain so I can go into more detail if needed.

Scarab Sages

Kimera757 wrote:
soupturtle wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:
I almost feel like I need to build a monk then :( But I've not done one before. Unfortunately, no one else seems willing to build a core-only monk.
That's because core-only unarmed monks kinda suck.
That was the whole point of the thread. Anyway, Ciretose seems to be doing something similar. It's not exactly core-only, but close enough. I think we need to steer clear of archetypes for these comparisons. A fighter "out of the box" seems stronger without any such thing.

The point of the thread was "are monks underpowered?"

The criteria was changed to unarmed, core only monks after viable builds were posted.

I can build perfectly viable monks without using the sohei archetype. Quinggong, Maneuver Master, Weapon Adept, Druken Master and Flowing Monk all have perfectly viable builds. Some will use monk weapons (yes, that is allowed under core rules, though people are pushing to disallow core rule options that threaten their preconceptions). Some will have non-DPR solutions (will be dismissed out of hand as they are not subject to numerical analysis). Some will simply be ignored.

The important lesson to be learned from this thread to date is, the popular opinion will not be permitted to be proven wrong. No matter how good the builds, the goalpost will be moved, the conditions altered, and even core rule book abilities are barred at the posters discretion.

Liberty's Edge

I think Quiggong is almost a core choice for monk users, but I stuck to core for the purposes of debate.


ciretose wrote:
I think Quiggong is almost a core choice for monk users, but I stuck to core for the purposes of debate.

Totally agree.


It seems we are not on the same page with what criteria we are expecting Artanthos to use, or not use. <---serious comment.

Personally I want to see a core monk 20 point buy with any the UM, Ultimate combat, and Ultimate magic books good for use , along with the CRB.

He can use any level between 8 and 13 with no more than 50% of WBL spent on any one item.


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Artanthos wrote:
The point of the thread was "are monks underpowered?"

I think the thread should have used clear criteria in the first place. Every build thread runs into that problem.

Ciretose is building a competent core-only monk, and I don't think that's threatening anyone's perceptions, at least not those who are willing to engage in a debate.


Artanthos wrote:
The criteria was changed to unarmed, core only monks after viable builds were posted.

Was it? At best I remember people saying that if you had to use an archetype that people already stated was good it was kind of a moot point. The fact you have to use archetypes does of course suck and I don't think its a good thing. Archetypes are poor fixes to core problems.

The most unique thing the monk gets as far as I can tell is two weapon fighting with one weapon, which is admittedly pretty cool. Now we just need monk clothes so he can get cool enchants without a bracer and amulet slot being eaten up.

Personally, I always thought the monks problem was a lack of good class features and support for his unarmed/unarmored fighting style. Also Lawful only. That's just silly.


Kimera757 wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
The point of the thread was "are monks underpowered?"

I think the thread should have used clear criteria in the first place. Every build thread runs into that problem.

Ciretose is building a competent core-only monk, and I don't think that's threatening anyone's perceptions, at least not those who are willing to engage in a debate.

Agreed. Here is an example of the problem with Artanthos..

Crowd: All Fords are suspect except for the Mustang, and Taurus.

Aranthos: Hey I have a Mustang that runs well enough. See Fords are nice cars.

Crowd: Ok. You just said what we already said before you even spoke.

Aranthos: Hey I have a Mustang that runs well enough. See Fords are nice cars. You said Fords are no good.

Crowd: We did not say all Fords are no good. We said most of them are not good. Yeah there are some decent ones, but the majority of them are no good, and the original model over there is one that is not good. The owner's manual says it can do _____, _____, and ____, but it can't, and when it can another car does it better.


Artanthos wrote:
I can build perfectly viable monks without using the sohei archetype. Quinggong, Maneuver Master, Weapon Adept, Druken Master and Flowing Monk all have perfectly viable builds. Some will use monk weapons (yes, that is allowed under core rules, though people are pushing to disallow core rule options that threaten their preconceptions). Some will have non-DPR solutions (will be dismissed out of hand as they are not subject to numerical analysis). Some will simply be ignored.

Fantastic! Please post those builds so we can look at them and see how they stack up/improve upon them. Do not take criticism of a build personally, or critiques about "well, if you fight naga you are screwed because you chose to be a trip master". All builds have weaknesses to something. Those will come up. We are not insulting you, we just want to see the builds and improve them as much as possible to see how good a "perfect" monk could be.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:

The point being made is that most monk archetypes to include the core monk suck.

If you agree type "2" in your next response.

Most archetypes for most classes suck. System master means separating the chaff from the wheat.

Quote:
If you disagree type "0" and show us a build that proves us wrong, and provide tactics.

Using an extremely narrow set of parameters. I can make any class appear to suck if I place enough build restrictions on them.

Quote:
Also we don't expect any monk to match the fighter or barbarian for DPR. <--read this 3 times if you have to.

To date, within this thread, every non-dpr option has been labeled trivial or irrelevant.

Quote:
We do expect that if you can't match a certain DPR that you can contribute in other ways, that I can't just easily say, "well why not use class X since it does more damage and ____ also"

Because posting a build that can grapple a giant at 8th level while maintaining respectable DPR simply results in the grapple being ignored and the unarmed DPR being labeled as sub-par.

(Refer to the drunken master posted upthread.)

Quote:
Now do you understand the criteria? If you do then type "4".

The criteria are as I have paraphrased them.

I am not permitted to use any source material that might result in a viable build, even if that material is from the core rulebook. I am bound to your preconceived notion of what a monk is, even if those preconceived notions have no basis in reality or in available options.

These heavily restricted builds will then be compared to builds from other classes using the full range of available rules.


Tarantula wrote:
Right, we are comparing core book classes(i.e. no archetypes), but still allowing feats/items/etc from all the paizo books.

We have a concensus on this.

What about the 20 point buy?

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Right, we are comparing core book classes(i.e. no archetypes), but still allowing feats/items/etc from all the paizo books.

We have a concensus on this.

What about the 20 point buy?

Core rulebook monk is permitted to flurry with weapons.


wraithstrike wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Right, we are comparing core book classes(i.e. no archetypes), but still allowing feats/items/etc from all the paizo books.

We have a concensus on this.

What about the 20 point buy?

While 15 point buy is probably the way Pathfinder was playtested, I doubt anyone uses it. 20 point buy should be fine, as it's pretty common. Ciretose's monk is probably built to that anyway; I couldn't get a +2 to Dex and Wis at 15 point buy.

Dark Archive

I think this thread has proven that they at least CAN be competitive. The keys are:

*While competitive, they are usually going to be better both in combat and out of combat alone.
*There are a few weapon classes (Sohei, Zen Archer) that largely bypass this problem; but the Zen Archer especially is mostly overshadowed by the ranger.
*They make excellent splash classes; but most of the "Good" you can get out of monks come from the first 2 levels (or 4 in the case of a few prestige classes).

But I think you can have fun with them, even a "base book" one, as long as you know what you are doing. Still, they will always be considered weak until their powers get consolidated. They've gotten BIG boosts from style feats and the kits, but they still have a ways to go.

Scarab Sages

Kimera757 wrote:
Who told you that?

About half the naysayers in this thread when they restrict build options to unarmed monks only.

Core rulebook monks are not restricted to unarmed.


I agree on 20pt buy. Lets stick with that, as it is what I used in my builds.


Artanthos wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:
Who told you that?

About half the naysayers in this thread when they restrict build options to unarmed monks only.

Core rulebook monks are not restricted to unarmed.

I might say its awkward that the monk is best when not unarmed, but I don't see anyone restricting the monk to unarmed.


Artanthos wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:
Who told you that?

About half the naysayers in this thread when they restrict build options to unarmed monks only.

Core rulebook monks are not restricted to unarmed.

Use weapons then, if you're doing your own build. Not using weapons isn't part of the consensus.

(Yes, you'll get complaints that "unarmed monks suck", but there's also complaints that "Dex monkeys suck" too, so just roll with it.)


EldonG wrote:

Just for fun, I built a monk. Now, it's been a while since I built one...I'd like him critiqued. He's 20 points, should be PFS legal...a half-orc drunken master. Tons of flavor.

Sorch the Sot:** spoiler omitted **...

Ok, lets compare the drunken master to the beasties posted upthread.

Quick rehash of the character:
Spoiler:
Male Half-Orc monk 8
LG medium humanoid (orc, human)
Init +6; Senses Darkvision (60 ft.), Perception +15,
Languages Common, Orc
AC 22, touch 20, flat-footed 20
hp 56 (8HD)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +10
Defensive Abilities Evasion,
Speed 50 ft. (10 squares), Fast Movement, High Jump, Slow Fall
Melee flail +1 (heavy) (two handed) +12/+7 ((two handed) 1d10+8/19-20)
Melee masterwork aklys (medium) +12/+7 (1d8+5)
Ranged masterwork aklys (medium/thrown) +9/+4 (1d8+5)
Ranged shuriken +8/+3 (1d2+5)
Melee flurry of blows +11/+11/+11/+6 (1d10+5)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +6; CMB +13 (+15 bullrush) (+17 grapple); CMD 33 (35 vs bullrush) (35 vs grapple)
Atk Options Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Ki Pool,
Special Actions Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Abilities Str 20, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Special Qualities AC Bonus, Chain Fighter, Darkvision, Drunken Ki, Drunken Strength, Fast Movement, High Jump, Maneuver Training, Orc Blood, Orc Ferocity, Scavenger, Slow Fall, Wholeness of Body,
Feats Defensive Combat Training, Deflect Arrows, Greater Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Scorpion Style, Stunning Fist
Skills Acrobatics +18, Acrobatics (Jump) +34, Bluff -1, Climb +10, Diplomacy -1, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +7, Fly +2, Heal +4, Intimidate -1, Perception +15, Perform (Untrained) -1, Ride +2, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +10, Stealth +18, Survival +4, Swim +5,
Possessions amulet of natural armor +2; headband of inspired wisdom +2; flail +1 (heavy); ring of protection +2; belt of giant strength +2; cloak of elvenkind; boots of elvenkind; masterwork aklys (medium); shuriken (x6); flurry of blows; AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, you add +4 to your AC and your CMD. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to AC and CMD. These bonuses apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.
Bullied You were bullied often as a child, and you are now constantly ready to defend yourself with your fists when an enemy comes near. You gain a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity attack rolls made with unarmed strikes. Note that this trait does not grant the ability to make attacks of opportunity with your unarmed strikes.
Chain Fighter Some half-orcs have escaped from slavery and reforged the chains of their imprisonment into deadly weapons. Half-orcs with this racial trait are proficient with flails and heavy flails, and treat dire flails and spiked chains as martial weapons. This trait replaces the weapon familiarity racial trait.
Child of the Streets You grew up on the streets of a large city, and as a result you have developed a knack for picking pockets and hiding small objects on your person. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Sleight of Hand checks, and Sleight of Hand is always a class skill for you.
Darkvision (Ex)
Darkvision
Drunken Ki (Su) At 3rd level, a drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain one temporary ki point. The act of drinking is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The monk can have a maximum number of drunken ki points equal to 1 plus one additional point for every two levels thereafter (5th, 7th, and so on). The monk can gain this temporary ki even before he gains a ki pool at 4th level. These drunken ki points last for 1 hour or until spent, whichever is shorter. As long as he has at least 1 drunken ki point, the monk can spend 1 ki point as a move action to move 5 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces still mind.
Drunken Strength (Su) At 5th level, a drunken master can spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to inflict 1d6 extra points of damage on a single successful melee attack. The monk can choose to apply the damage after the attack roll is made. At 10th level, the monk may spend 2 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 2d6. At 15th level, the monk may spend 3 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 3d6. At 20th level, the monk may spend 4 drunken ki points to increase the extra damage to 4d6. The monk must have at least 1 drunken ki point to use this ability. This ability replaces purity of body.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can only be used if you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex) Your gain a +20 feet enhancement bonus to your land speed. If you wear armor or carry a medium or heavy load, you lose this extra speed.
Flurry of Blows (Ex) You can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, you may make two additional attacks using any combination of unarmed strikes or attack with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feats. For the purpose of these attacks, your base attack bonus is equal to your monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, you use your normal base attack bonus.
High Jump (Ex) You can adds +8 to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, you always count as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action, you gain a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a pool of 8 ki points, supernatural energy you can use to accomplish amazing feats. As long as you have at least 1 point in your ki pool, you can make a ki strike. Ki Strike allows your unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. By spending 1 point from your ki pool, you can make one additional attack at your highest attack bonus when making a Flurry of Blows attack. In addition, you can spend 1 point to increase your speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, you can spend 1 point from your ki pool to give yourself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each use of these powers is activated as a swift action. The ki pool is replenished after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Maneuver Training (Ex) A monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his combat maneuver bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.
Monk Bonus Feat
Orc Blood (Ex) Half-orc count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Orc Ferocity (Ex) Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points, but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Scavenger Some half-orcs eke out a leaving picking over the garbage heaps of society, and must learn to separate rare finds from the inevitable dross. Half-orcs with this racial trait receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks and on Perception checks to find hidden objects (including traps and secret doors), determine if food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste. This racial trait replaces the intimidating racial trait.
Slow Fall (Ex) If you are within arm's reach of a wall, you can use it to slow your descent. You takes damage as if the fall were 40 feet shorter than it actually is.
Stunning Fist (Ex) You gain Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. You can choose to make the target of your Stunning Fist fatigued, or sickened for 1 minute. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. You must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves, but additional hits do increase the duration.
Wholeness of Body (Su) You can heal your own wounds as a standard action. You can heal 8 hit points of damage by using 2 points from your ki pool.

Focus will be on grapple, since that is what the drunk is optimized for.

Clockwork soldier:CMD is 31. So drunk can grapple on a 14. Same initiative. Clockwork hits him on a 4/9 (6/11 while grapppled) and will drop him in 3 hits. Chances are, drunk is going down.

Legion Archon: Much lower CMD of 22. But he can fly. This limits the monk to his ranged attacks. Aklys at +9/4 or shuriken at +8/3. Those will hit on a 14 or 13 respectively. Shuriken can never break the DR, adn the aklys can do up to a whopping 3 damage/round. Archon can hit him with its javelin on a 12. Monk is effectively incapable of fighting this.

Ogre Mage Oni: Another flyer and has a longbow. Hits the monk on a 12. Monk can use aklys or shuriken and hit on a 12/11. With regen however, monk is going to go down again.

Greater Shadow: Probably the best case for the monk. Except its incorporeal, and so cannot be grappled. Monk hits on a 6/11 with flail/aklys, or 7/7/7/12 for flurry. Shadow touches on a 9. Monk will slowly lose due to strength drain before he makes a big dent in hp.

Dire Tiger: All attacks hit on a 4. If the tiger pounces, the monk is probably going down in one shot. If the monk can go first, he can grapple on a 14. And that opens him up to 2 more attacks from rake.

Yuki-onna: More incorporeal and she touches on a 10. Blur and fly means she dictates when the encounter happens and can't be grappled. Monk needs a 13 to save on her stagger. She also has spring attack, letting her move in and out slowly killing the monk.

Scarab Sages

I raised the point because every previous mention of monk build in this thread post sohei has placed the unarmed restriction on the monk.

The only major difference in damage between a sohei and core rulebook monk using a weapon is the +1/+1 from weapon training. There are at least two 2-handed monk weapons matching the bardiche in damage.


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I just got back. My first attempt at a core monk. The saves are nice.

My idea was to craft my own items, and buy my way into a decent build.

Core Monk:

monk 1
Dwarf Monk 8
LN Medium Humanoid (dwarf)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +20
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 21, flat-footed 17 (+3 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 65 (8d8+22)<---using PFS average
Fort +11, Ref +12, Will +14; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities<---Steel Soul boost these by 4, in most cases
Defensive Abilities defensive training, evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +14/+9 (1d10+7/x2)
Ranged +1 Light crossbow +10/+5 (1d8+1/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +14/+14/+9/+9, hatred, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 7
Base Atk +6; CMB +13; CMD 32 (32 vs. Bull Rush, 32 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Craft Wondrous Item, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Master Craftsman (Profession [architect]), Mobility, Steel Soul, Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 18), Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+18 jump, +22 to jump), Appraise +1 (+3 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Climb +9, Perception +20 (+22 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Profession (architect) +17, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +14, Swim +9
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ ac bonus +6, fast movement (+20'), greed, hardy, high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow and steady, slow fall 40', stability, stonecunning +2, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10), wholeness of body
Other Gear +1 Light crossbow, aomf 8000, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Cloak of resistance +3, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +1, 915 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +6/+6/+1/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
High Jump (+8/+28 with Ki point) (Ex) +8 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Master Craftsman (Profession [architect]) +2 to chosen craft skill, its ranks count as CL for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Slow Fall 40' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 18) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (8 Hp/use) (Su) Use 2 ki to heal own wounds as a standard action.

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I did catch some herolab errors that were not in my favor, but I only saw obvious one. There may be more errors.


Again, we would prefer to see an unarmed monk, as that is what people think of when they think of the stereotypical monk. If monks weren't designed for unarmed to be a viable style, then why even give them bonuses to it in the first place? IUS should be a viable monk style, the same that wild shape is a viable druid style, or spells are a viable way to play for a wizard.

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:

Just for fun, I built a monk. Now, it's been a while since I built one...I'd like him critiqued. He's 20 points, should be PFS legal...a half-orc drunken master. Tons of flavor.

Sorch the Sot:** spoiler omitted **...

Ok, lets compare the drunken master to the beasties posted upthread.

Quick rehash of the character:
** spoiler omitted **...

Do we have to keep comparing them to these cherry picks or can we expand elsewhere. I don't want to be accused of ducking goal posts, but all of the classes have had trouble matching up to these picks.

Hilariously, the monk actually does better because of the touch AC.


I agree those picks are pretty hard, and yes, the fighter loses to most of them too. We can change the beasties, as long as we use the same set for the builds.


Just remember to throw some real beasties in there. The world has more than just medium sized opponents.

So what are we proving now?


MrSin wrote:

Just remember to throw some real beasties in there. The world has more than just medium sized opponents.

So what are we proving now?

Couldn't we use the Bestiary I's monsters, CR 7 through 9? There should be a variety there.


Artanthos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

The point being made is that most monk archetypes to include the core monk suck.

If you agree type "2" in your next response.

Most archetypes for most classes suck. System master means separating the chaff from the wheat.

Quote:
If you disagree type "0" and show us a build that proves us wrong, and provide tactics.

Using an extremely narrow set of parameters. I can make any class appear to suck if I place enough build restrictions on them.

Quote:
Also we don't expect any monk to match the fighter or barbarian for DPR. <--read this 3 times if you have to.

To date, within this thread, every non-dpr option has been labeled trivial or irrelevant.

Quote:
We do expect that if you can't match a certain DPR that you can contribute in other ways, that I can't just easily say, "well why not use class X since it does more damage and ____ also"

Because posting a build that can grapple a giant at 8th level while maintaining respectable DPR simply results in the grapple being ignored and the unarmed DPR being labeled as sub-par.

(Refer to the drunken master posted upthread.)

Quote:
Now do you understand the criteria? If you do then type "4".

The criteria are as I have paraphrased them.

I am not permitted to use any source material that might result in a viable build, even if that material is from the core rulebook. I am bound to your preconceived notion of what a monk is, even if those preconceived notions have no basis in reality or in available options.

These heavily restricted builds will then be compared to builds from other classes using the full range of available rules.

You are NOT bound by MY notion of anything. The restrictions are in place because of all the times I have suggest that someone ignore the unarmed fighting and use a temple sword, and THEY insisted on going with an unarmed monk because that is the vision most people have.

IF I am playing a monk it gets a temple sword, but I am in the minority.

The idea is to get a viable unarmed strike build. We already agree that a decent monk build can be made. That is not in question. I don't know this idea is so hard for you to grasp despite my constantly repeating it.

You keep trying to make builds that we already agree work. The OP asked a question, and the basic answer was yeah you can make a decent monk only with certain archetypes or by multiclassing.

If we agree on this then we are really on the same side. The only problem is that for you if less than half of the archetypes to include the core monk work, and that if unarmed strikes, which is what people envision also dont work well, you still want to try to say the monk is ok.

If you think that is ok then fine, but a higher than 50% success rate, and failing to do what most people want is considered a fail to many others.

In the end we just have a different definition of "success".

Now it seems by your responses that you do agree with me when I asked you to type a number in.

Thanks for cooperation.

This thread can end now.


Well after looking at Tarantula's monk I see my monk is no better than his is over all. My only real advantage is the better saves.


Kimera757 wrote:
MrSin wrote:

Just remember to throw some real beasties in there. The world has more than just medium sized opponents.

So what are we proving now?

Couldn't we use the Bestiary I's monsters, CR 7 through 9? There should be a variety there.

Works for me:

CR 7

aboleth, air elemental (huge), black dragon (young), black pudding, brass dragon (young), bulette, chimera, chuul, dire bear, dracolisk, drider, earth elemental (huge), elasmosaurus, elephant, fire elemental (huge), flesh golem, ghost, greater barghest, hill giant, invisible stalker, lillend, medusa, nymph, remorhaz, shadow demon, shaitan, spectre, stegosaurus, succubus, water elemental (huge)

CR 8

behir, copper dragon (young), dark naga, dire tiger, efreeti, erinyes, giant octopus, giant slug, gorgon, greater shadow, green dragon (young), intellect devourer, mohrg, nabasu, ogre mage, sphinx, stone giant, treant, triceratops

CR 9

air elemental (greater), blue dragon (young), bone devil, bronze dragon (young), dire crocodile, dire shark, dragon turtle, earth elemental (greater), fire elemental (greater), frost giant, giant squid, marid, mastodon, nessian warhound, night hag, roc, spirit naga, tyrannosaurus, vampire, vrock, water elemental (greater)

Liberty's Edge

If all you guys understand is pure damage, here's a damage build. You'll probably balk at his use of wands, but he uses them himself, and he's paid for them. He has enough gold left over to buy a few more, or some one-use items, or what have you. This is him, fully buffed. Again, I'm no super-optimiser, but again, this character is fully playable.

This is Kondor...the wand freak.

Spoiler:

Male Human monk 8
LG medium humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +15,
Languages Common
AC 23, touch 19, flat-footed 20
hp 72 (8HD)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +10, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Still Mind,
Immunities Disease,
Speed 50 ft. (10 squares), Fast Movement, High Jump, Slow Fall
Ranged crossbow +1 (light) +9/+4 (3d6+1/19-20)
Melee flurry of blows [magic weapon] +14/+14/+14/+9 (3d8+8)
Melee flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8 (3d8+7)
Melee flurry of blows [magic weapon, lead blades] +14/+14/+14/+9 (3d8+8)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +6; CMB +15; CMD 33
Atk Options Stunning Fist, Ki Pool,
Special Actions Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Abilities Str 24, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
Special Qualities AC Bonus, Bonus Feat, Fast Movement, High Jump, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Skilled, Slow Fall, Wholeness of Body,
Feats Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Combat Reflexes, Gorgon's Fist, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Scorpion Style, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Stunning Fist, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills Acrobatics +14, Acrobatics (Jump) +30, Climb +7, Escape Artist +10, Fly +3, Heal +6, Knowledge (Religion) +5, Perception +15, Ride +3, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +12, Survival +4, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +15,
Possessions ring of protection +1; flurry of blows; flurry of blows; flurry of blows; Crossbow +1 (Light) ; AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, you add +4 to your AC and your CMD. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to AC and CMD. These bonuses apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.
Bonus Feat Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Dangerously Curious You have always been intrigued by magic, possibly because you were the child of a magician or priest. You often snuck into your parent's laboratory or shrine to tinker with spell components and magic devices, and often caused quite a bit of damage and headaches for your parent as a result. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Use Magic Device checks, and Use Magic Device is always a class skill for you.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can only be used if you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex) Your gain a +20 feet enhancement bonus to your land speed. If you wear armor or carry a medium or heavy load, you lose this extra speed.
Flurry of Blows (Ex) You can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, you may make two additional attacks using any combination of unarmed strikes or attack with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feats. For the purpose of these attacks, your base attack bonus is equal to your monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, you use your normal base attack bonus.
High Jump (Ex) You can adds +8 to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, you always count as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action, you gain a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.
Immunity to Disease (Ex) You are never subject to disease effects.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a pool of 8 ki points, supernatural energy you can use to accomplish amazing feats. As long as you have at least 1 point in your ki pool, you can make a ki strike. Ki Strike allows your unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. By spending 1 point from your ki pool, you can make one additional attack at your highest attack bonus when making a Flurry of Blows attack. In addition, you can spend 1 point to increase your speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, you can spend 1 point from your ki pool to give yourself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each use of these powers is activated as a swift action. The ki pool is replenished after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Maneuver Training (Ex) A monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his combat maneuver bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.
Monk Bonus Feat
Purity of Body (Ex) You are immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Reactionary You were bullied often as a child, but never quite developed an offensive response. Instead, you became adept at anticipating sudden attacks and reacting to danger quickly. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Skilled Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Slow Fall (Ex) If you are within arm's reach of a wall, you can use it to slow your descent. You takes damage as if the fall were 40 feet shorter than it actually is.
Still Mind (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (Ex) You gain Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. You can choose to make the target of your Stunning Fist fatigued, or sickened for 1 minute. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. You must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves, but additional hits do increase the duration.
Wholeness of Body (Su) You can heal your own wounds as a standard action. You can heal 8 hit points of damage by using 2 points from your ki pool.

Unbuffed, not all that impressive:

Spoiler:

Male Human monk 8
LG medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +13,
Languages Common
AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 15
hp 72 (8HD)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +8, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Still Mind,
Immunities Disease,
Speed 50 ft. (10 squares), Fast Movement, High Jump, Slow Fall
Ranged crossbow +1 (light) +9/+4 (1d8+1/19-20)
Melee flurry of blows [magic weapon] +12/+12/+12/+7 (1d10+5)
Melee flurry of blows +11/+11/+11/+6 (1d10+4)
Melee flurry of blows [magic weapon, lead blades] +12/+12/+12/+7 (1d10+5)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +6; CMB +12; CMD 27
Atk Options Stunning Fist, Ki Pool,
Special Actions Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Abilities Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Special Qualities AC Bonus, Bonus Feat, Fast Movement, High Jump, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Skilled, Slow Fall, Wholeness of Body,
Feats Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Combat Reflexes, Gorgon's Fist, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Scorpion Style, Skill Focus (Use Magic Device), Stunning Fist, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Acrobatics (Jump) +29, Climb +4, Escape Artist +9, Fly +2, Heal +4, Knowledge (Religion) +5, Perception +13, Ride +2, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +11, Survival +2, Swim +4, Use Magic Device +15,
Possessions ring of protection +1; flurry of blows; flurry of blows; flurry of blows; Crossbow +1 (Light) ; AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, you add +2 to your AC and your CMD. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to AC and CMD. These bonuses apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.
Bonus Feat Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Dangerously Curious You have always been intrigued by magic, possibly because you were the child of a magician or priest. You often snuck into your parent's laboratory or shrine to tinker with spell components and magic devices, and often caused quite a bit of damage and headaches for your parent as a result. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Use Magic Device checks, and Use Magic Device is always a class skill for you.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can only be used if you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex) Your gain a +20 feet enhancement bonus to your land speed. If you wear armor or carry a medium or heavy load, you lose this extra speed.
Flurry of Blows (Ex) You can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, you may make two additional attacks using any combination of unarmed strikes or attack with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feats. For the purpose of these attacks, your base attack bonus is equal to your monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, you use your normal base attack bonus.
High Jump (Ex) You can adds +8 to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, you always count as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action, you gain a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.
Immunity to Disease (Ex) You are never subject to disease effects.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a pool of 6 ki points, supernatural energy you can use to accomplish amazing feats. As long as you have at least 1 point in your ki pool, you can make a ki strike. Ki Strike allows your unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. By spending 1 point from your ki pool, you can make one additional attack at your highest attack bonus when making a Flurry of Blows attack. In addition, you can spend 1 point to increase your speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, you can spend 1 point from your ki pool to give yourself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each use of these powers is activated as a swift action. The ki pool is replenished after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Maneuver Training (Ex) A monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his combat maneuver bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.
Monk Bonus Feat
Purity of Body (Ex) You are immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Reactionary You were bullied often as a child, but never quite developed an offensive response. Instead, you became adept at anticipating sudden attacks and reacting to danger quickly. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Skilled Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Slow Fall (Ex) If you are within arm's reach of a wall, you can use it to slow your descent. You takes damage as if the fall were 40 feet shorter than it actually is.
Still Mind (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (Ex) You gain Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. You can choose to make the target of your Stunning Fist fatigued, or sickened for 1 minute. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. You must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves, but additional hits do increase the duration.
Wholeness of Body (Su) You can heal your own wounds as a standard action. You can heal 8 hit points of damage by using 2 points from your ki pool.

Wands: longer term - (3 min, except mage armor, 1 hour) Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, and Mage Armor; shorter term (1 min) Magic Weapon, Lead Blades, and Enlarge


For upcoming encounters, how much prep time do the PCs have? I'm thinking we could do it randomly, so sometimes the monsters get to make a Stealth check, to sometimes the PCs knowing they're about to invade a nest of monsters.


Sorry, I don't see the wands listed. What DC does he need to hit to successfully use them? Which buffs are used specifically? How many actions does it take to buff up before a fight, and how long do they all last?

Scarab Sages

Tarantula wrote:
Again, we would prefer to see an unarmed monk, as that is what people think of when they think of the stereotypical monk. If monks weren't designed for unarmed to be a viable style, then why even give them bonuses to it in the first place? IUS should be a viable monk style, the same that wild shape is a viable druid style, or spells are a viable way to play for a wizard.

The consensus reached just a few posts earlier allowed armed monks.

Are we back to barring core rulebook options for the monk?

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
Sorry, I don't see the wands listed. What DC does he need to hit to successfully use them? Which buffs are used specifically? How many actions does it take to buff up before a fight, and how long do they all last?

For some reason, PCGen doesn't list the wands. His UMD is +15. He has a few he can use in advance: Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, and Mage Armor. They last long enough for him to use them as they go to a place he knows he'll be fighting in...if he knows in advance.

The others are Magic Weapon, Lead Blades, and Enlarge. He'll hand off at least one to an arcane caster in advance, to save a round's buffing, if he has the opportunity.

Without the wands, he gets chewed up bad.


Artanthos wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Again, we would prefer to see an unarmed monk, as that is what people think of when they think of the stereotypical monk. If monks weren't designed for unarmed to be a viable style, then why even give them bonuses to it in the first place? IUS should be a viable monk style, the same that wild shape is a viable druid style, or spells are a viable way to play for a wizard.

The consensus reached just a few posts earlier allowed armed monks.

Are we back to barring core rulebook options for the monk?

Prefer. As in, like to. Not required. You can post whatever you type into the box on the page.

If we don't like a build you post, don't take it personally. Make the best build you can. We are not trying to insult you. They're just numbers on a page.


Artanthos wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Again, we would prefer to see an unarmed monk, as that is what people think of when they think of the stereotypical monk. If monks weren't designed for unarmed to be a viable style, then why even give them bonuses to it in the first place? IUS should be a viable monk style, the same that wild shape is a viable druid style, or spells are a viable way to play for a wizard.

The consensus reached just a few posts earlier allowed armed monks.

Are we back to barring core rulebook options for the monk?

The point isn't barring options. Its just explaining people prefer unarmed because its more stereotypical, and its sort of what the books advertise.


EldonG wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Sorry, I don't see the wands listed. What DC does he need to hit to successfully use them? Which buffs are used specifically? How many actions does it take to buff up before a fight, and how long do they all last?

For some reason, PCGen doesn't list the wands. His UMD is +15. He has a few he can use in advance: Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, and Mage Armor. They last long enough for him to use them as they go to a place he knows he'll be fighting in...if he knows in advance.

The others are Magic Weapon, Lead Blades, and Enlarge. He'll hand off at least one to an arcane caster in advance, to save a round's buffing, if he has the opportunity.

Without the wands, he gets chewed up bad.

So those are all 1min/level spells except mage armor. What CL are the wands?

And you need a 5 to activate a wand. So that means you're failing 1/4th the time. Also you have a 1/20 chance of blocking yourself out of that wand for the day.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
You keep trying to make builds that we already agree work. The OP asked a question, and the basic answer was yeah you can make a decent monk only with certain archetypes or by multiclassing.

The basic response, on this thread and most others, is that monks do not work.

Now your moving to, monks work in general but I want a specific build to work.

You want unarmed monks, no archetypes, to match classes with full access to the published material. DPR is the only metric of success.

I want my gnomish shuriken master to work. No archetypes permitted.
If not it does not, fighters are broken and need to be fixed.


Artanthos wrote:
Now your moving to, monks work in general but I want a specific build to work.

No. In general, monks do not work. 3 specific archetypes(zen,sohei,martial artist) can be made to work sometimes. Or they are good for multiclass dips. 3 archetypes is not "in general".

Fighters work, in general.
Rangers work, in general.
Paladins work, in general.

Monks work, if you take one of 3 archetypes, otherwise they don't (which we are trying to prove by getting the best possible monk builds not of the archetypes accepted to work).


As an example:
There are 18 archetypes for monk, plus core. Out of those 19 options, 3(15%) are accepted as working.

There are 22 archetypes for figher, plus core. Out of those 23 options, a majority (>50%) are accepted as working. A few are considered "best", but most can be made to work.


EldonG wrote:

If all you guys understand is pure damage, here's a damage build. You'll probably balk at his use of wands, but he uses them himself, and he's paid for them. He has enough gold left over to buy a few more, or some one-use items, or what have you. This is him, fully buffed. Again, I'm no super-optimiser, but again, this character is fully playable.

This is Kondor...the wand freak.
** spoiler omitted **...

I don't expect for a class to be great at damage unless it does not do anything else, and neither do the rest of us. Basically if the monk find a niche somewhere outside of combat the combat requirements will come down.


Artanthos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You keep trying to make builds that we already agree work. The OP asked a question, and the basic answer was yeah you can make a decent monk only with certain archetypes or by multiclassing.
The basic response, on this thread and most others, is that monks do not work.

They kind of don't. Sohei works. Zen Archer works. Core monk? Yeah, he should probably be able to do some good DPR if he wants to keep up with the other classes. He doesn't exactly have skills or class features going for him.


Artanthos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You keep trying to make builds that we already agree work. The OP asked a question, and the basic answer was yeah you can make a decent monk only with certain archetypes or by multiclassing.

The basic response, on this thread and most others, is that monks do not work.

Now your moving to, monks work in general but I want a specific build to work.

You want unarmed monks, no archetypes, to match classes with full access to the published material. DPR is the only metric of success.

I want my gnomish shuriken master to work. No archetypes permitted.
If not it does not, fighters are broken and need to be fixed.

Let me try this again.

Monks dont work in general. Yeah I am saying that. That is not the same as a monk can not be made to work.

You don't need a DPR focused monk, but if you are not going to do a lot of damage then bring something else to the table. When you post the build tell us what the something(s) else is.

You can use a weapon, but I would prefer an unarmed monk due to the "but I want to go unarmed" counters. For now all I can say is "temple sword".

The monk I posted is good at perception, and hopefully is decent in combat. I did not run any numbers yet so I don't know.

However I am sure I can get a ranger and be pretty close in perception, and have a higher stealth, and DPR, along with utility in other areas.

If I went unarmed I will likely, and be behind the monk for normal attacks, but be ahead when facing a favored enemy.

Now if you agree that going unarmed is a bad move we can let this part of the debate go and move on to armed monks.

edit:had "" in the wrong place

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Sorry, I don't see the wands listed. What DC does he need to hit to successfully use them? Which buffs are used specifically? How many actions does it take to buff up before a fight, and how long do they all last?

For some reason, PCGen doesn't list the wands. His UMD is +15. He has a few he can use in advance: Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, and Mage Armor. They last long enough for him to use them as they go to a place he knows he'll be fighting in...if he knows in advance.

The others are Magic Weapon, Lead Blades, and Enlarge. He'll hand off at least one to an arcane caster in advance, to save a round's buffing, if he has the opportunity.

Without the wands, he gets chewed up bad.

So those are all 1min/level spells except mage armor. What CL are the wands?

And you need a 5 to activate a wand. So that means you're failing 1/4th the time. Also you have a 1/20 chance of blocking yourself out of that wand for the day.

All base level. If there's an arcane caster, he'll have them use the longer term wands on him...unless there's a ranger, he'll always be doing the Lead Blades.

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