How is this feat not broken?!?
For a -5 penalty everyone one of your melee attacks has the chance to stun an opponent with a Fort save equal to 10 + your BAB.
So for a minimum qualifying user that means a DC 26 Fort save every time an opponent gets hit.
Then look at the effects of being stunned. No actions for 1 round and drop everything in your hands. So even if you save next round you're weaponless and have to rearm.
Plus stun is one of the hardest conditions to get rid of.
This feat is so broken. Every combatant with a +16 BAB and Power Attack should be taking this, including monsters. And that's how you know the feat is broken!
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It's not broken because melee is allowed to get nice things once in awhile.
...Have you actually seen the Dazing Spell metamagic feat? And the various area/multi-target no SR spells it can be applied to, to target various saving throws?
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Just because something else may be broken doesn't mean this feat isn't...
Yea but at this point spellcasters rule anyway and it is a extremely high level to where it doesn't really matter.
I actually greatly prefer the Dazing Assault feat. It's a weaker effect, but unlike stunning there's nearly NOTHING immune to it and you can get it 4 levels earlier. Not sure I'd ever even get Stunning Assault; it feels redundant w/ Dazing Assault and no way would I give up the trick that works on everything.
If you want to do damage, you need to take power attack. Is power attack broken? Should power attack be banned or reworked?
It's actually best on an AoO build, especially Come and Get Me barbarian.
In fact, Dazing/Stunning Assault is basically the only thing that currently exists that even makes a reach-based warrior worth playing, as far as I'm concerned...
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It's like witnessing how the universe was created.
You're seeing it here first, folks. The start of the chain reaction that leads to innumerable nerfs put upon noncaster classes by Paizo at the behest of its fans, while broken caster feats and spells remain unchanged forever and always.
I'm going to call it now. Within a year, Stunning and Dazing Assault will have been nerfed into near uselessness, yet Dazing Spell will still exist as will dozens of other save or lose spells. Someone please thread necro next year to see if my prediction held true.
Dazing spells is banned at my table, and this is too.
Again, your talking about 16th level here. That's not too far away from level 20 or epic levels. What else do you want melee pcs to do? More damage? They do enough as is, and spellcasters get nice things EVERYTIME a new book, splat book,or the sort comes out, while combat oriented melee/range fighter types, have to skim and skim to find good things, even at such a high level like 16th.
This is in no way a broken feat. And as mentioned, many things are capable, at that level and beyond to get around, or to not be stunned.
Edit: plants, constructs, undead, oozes, inevitable subtype, and elementals are all immune to stun. the behemoth subtype can remove various conditions, one of which is stunned, at the end of its turn.
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It's actually best on an AoO build, especially Come and Get Me barbarian.
In fact, Dazing/Stunning Assault is basically the only thing that currently exists that even makes a reach-based warrior worth playing, as far as I'm concerned...
Works pretty nicely on my WWA Weaponmaster too... between Dazing Assault and Critical Mastery, he's actually able to lay down some conditions in addition to killing things outright.
As to the OP, to gain the benfit 1) you have to hit and 2) your foe has to fail his save. Have you seen the Fort saves for creatures at that level? And that's assuming of course that the target isn't immune...
I'm going to have a hard time saying anything you can't even get until level 16 is broken.
The save is inconsequential for melee monsters at that level. Lowest fort save on a cr 16 monster in the bestiary is +18. Fails 35% of the time.
Same monster has +13 will and a wizard can SOS it at dcs upwards of 30 by then or 80% chance to fail.
But keep complaining about the OP melee.
Not broken.
I played a Ranger variant with it in a pathfinderized version of Savage Tide, and for the five levels that he had it in gameplay, its use was extremely situational. Here's why:
-As mentioned, the DC isn't high enough that most singular foes of the same level only need to roll a 2 or higher to succeed against it. This uselessness didn't occur in every fight, but against most of the foes we faced (Demons of CR 17 and higher), the stun ability rarely got off. While the couple times that it did was huge, it never happened against any of the 'end bosses' of the modules. Of course, against human opponents that aren't melee types, this feat will shine, but that's kind of the point, right?
-The -5 to attack can be a big deal in some fights, especially if you're more concerned about hitting your opponents with your iterative attacks. Sometimes, the extra damage is better than forcing a save against stun. Against a Balor, I'd rather be piling on the Favored enemy and Power Attack damage than hitting less at the cost of an unlikely save.
-Monks get a similar ability, and when was the last 'Monks are Broken" thread that you saw?
-It does combine well with Dastardly Finish (Lets you Coup-de-Grace stunned opponents), but that's more about group synergy than a singular feat.
Stunning assault is equivalent to any of the many save or suck spell that wizard or sorc have. The main difference is that said wizard can do it at most 3 or 4 times per day, while you can use stunning assault 5 or more times per round all day long. It's like giving sorc or wiz infinite level 5 slots. You just don't do that, not even at level 16.
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At high levels, a caster can use MANY save or lose spells. They get a ton of spell slots.
Also, there is the witch with Slumber, Ice Tomb, and (to a lesser extent but still quite nasty) Misfortune and Retribution hexes. Which can all be used all day long.
Stunning Assault is a melee effect, casters apply conditions at range. The -5 to hit will affect later iterative attacks. If the martial is applying it "hundreds of times in a session" then he is fighting low level mooks, who likely are dazed/rimed already dead from AOE spells.
It is a nice toy for Fighters and a great one for those classes built for 'pounce' type full attacks.
No not broken.
I actually greatly prefer the Dazing Assault feat. It's a weaker effect, but unlike stunning there's nearly NOTHING immune to it and you can get it 4 levels earlier. Not sure I'd ever even get Stunning Assault; it feels redundant w/ Dazing Assault and no way would I give up the trick that works on everything.
This. Daze affects everything.
Fort saves are easy to make for a good chunk of monsters. Practically anything large sized or larger is going to have a good fort save, and if you're fighting appropriately CRed enemies then they could probably make a DC26 on a 5.
If used against any fighter type they'll make the save more often then they won't, and good luck hitting them with the -5 to hit it imposes. It works on casters, who are probably flying 60 feet in the air, so that's off the list. So I guess it comes down to working on rogue types, who are already weak against melee brawlers anyway.
So no, it's not broken.
Stunning assault is equivalent to any of the many save or suck spell that wizard or sorc have. The main difference is that said wizard can do it at most 3 or 4 times per day, while you can use stunning assault 5 or more times per round all day long. It's like giving sorc or wiz infinite level 5 slots. You just don't do that, not even at level 16.
+1
Bingo
Also, a CR 16 monster has an average save modifier of +14 or +19 (and a CR 16 NPC with class levels will be much lower, either +5 or +10 base saves) so passing potentially multiple saves EVERY ROUND is unlikely.
And again, once you fail once you drop any weapons you might have so that makes you even less effective in the rounds that you may actually pass.
I've read the replies but I haven't seen anything convincing. I agree that the concept isn't entirely flawed but the implementation leaves much to be desired. This is just too obviously a MUST HAVE feat for any melee combatant that meets the pre-reqs and that's the sign of a broken feat.
IMO it should have some kind of limits on it because having the opportunity to stun (one of the most powerful effects in the game) on EVERY attack, EVERY round, all day long is way over the top.
Somewhere between a monk's stunning fist ability and the Stunning Assault feat as currently written would be more appropriate. I think Stunning Critical is closer to the mark because for that at least you need to score a critical hit.
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IMHO Stunning Assault is strong, but not broken.
I understand why people say things like, "The main difference is that said wizard can do it at most 3 or 4 times per day, while you can use stunning assault 5 or more times per round all day long. It's like giving sorc or wiz infinite level 5 slots." But "Infinite level 5 slots" would barely increase the power level of that character! A 17th level Wizard can cast 4 X 9th level spells, 4 X 8th level spells, 6 X 7th level spells, and 7 X 6th level spells.
Also, with metamagic feats & rods, Spell Perfection, etc. many of those high level spells will be beefed up beyond their normal power level. The last time I played with a character like that, all of the hard fights started with Quickened Time Stop during the surprise round, initiative +10 or more, saving throws around DC 30 (roll twice because of Persistent Spell, +23 vs. spell resistance, etc. All of that happens from range, without having to engage the enemy.
Without Pounce, the fighter with Stunning Assault is only going to get one attempt on the first round of combat, (He'll probably provoke an AOO on the way in.) and he's only stunning one target rather than every target in an area. Yes, on later rounds he can make multiple attempts if he can pull off a full attack, but that's not going to be a sure thing.
It might be reasonable to say that a level 16 barbarian with Combat Reflexes, Come and Get Me, the three ability chain to get Pounce, and Stunning Assault could get enough attempts to be considered broken, but he's risking his life to do it.
opponent casts fly
stunning assault feat
forever alone
It's safe to assume that at level 16+, everyone flies, even the fighters.
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Stunning assault is equivalent to any of the many save or suck spell that wizard or sorc have. The main difference is that said wizard can do it at most 3 or 4 times per day, while you can use stunning assault 5 or more times per round all day long. It's like giving sorc or wiz infinite level 5 slots. You just don't do that, not even at level 16.3 or 4 times a day, you are kidding aren't you?
More like 25-30 times per day with Spell Perfection. At level 16 you can force an enemy to make 4 reflex saves a round or be dazed for 4 rounds with a DC around 24-30 and a level 4 spell slot. Bump it to a level 6 slot with Persistent Spell and force those saves to 8 per round.
Casters also get to target their Daze effects against any of the three saves rather than being stuck on Fortitude which tends to be the highest save at most levels.
It really is amazing the number for people that clearly don't understand how full casters work that try to post on things related to balance.
Not just what you pointed out but they are also able to buy spell slots with s number of items. And since they don't have to spend coin on extremely expensive gear just to do function as their class they have the coin to burn.
The whole "casters have limited resources" thing is vastly over stated. Ether by people with low system understanding or those that personally want to try and hide the power gap between melee and casters.
Stunning assault is equivalent to any of the many save or suck spell that wizard or sorc have. The main difference is that said wizard can do it at most 3 or 4 times per day, while you can use stunning assault 5 or more times per round all day long. It's like giving sorc or wiz infinite level 5 slots. You just don't do that, not even at level 16.3 or 4 times a day, you are kidding aren't you?
More like 25-30 times per day with Spell Perfection. At level 16 you can force an enemy to make 4 reflex saves a round or be dazed for 4 rounds with a DC around 24-30 and a level 4 spell slot. Bump it to a level 6 slot with Persistent Spell and force those saves to 8 per round.
Casters also get to target their Daze effects against any of the three saves rather than being stuck on Fortitude which tends to be the highest save at most levels.
I think i already pointed out that dazing spell is comparable in power. And is also banned at my games. Dazing perfected ball lightning is perfect to have fun for a day theoricrafting his OPness. Then, you go play something else, because autowin is not fun.
It belong to the same ballpark where pun pun and the other eldritch horrors like summoners pouncing with lance mounted on their eidolons with 4 arms dual wielding 2 lance and pouncing. You just don't play some things.