| 15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
After a fairly long thread about the subject, the original question was marked as answered in the FAQ... except it wasn't. When I commented, someone suggested they had marked it to clear it from the queue, but couldn't determine the actual question. So I thought I'd simply ask again and clarify.
Please mark this for the FAQ so we can get a response.
Question:
Does the paladin have to cast the Detect Evil SLA normally before he can use the move action version on a single target, or is the latter an independent use that can be done on its own?
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After a fairly long thread about the subject, the original question was marked as answered in the FAQ... except it wasn't. When I commented, someone suggested they had marked it to clear it from the queue, but couldn't determine the actual question. So I thought I'd simply ask again and clarify.
Please mark this for the FAQ so we can get a response.
Question:
Does the paladin have to cast the Detect Evil SLA normally before he can use the move action version on a single target, or is the latter an independent use that can be done on its own?
Bump.
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I have no idea what the official rule on this would be, but I've never required it. Nothing in the class ability or the spell which indicates one must be used prior to initiating the other. Detect Evil may either be used as the spell (as indicated in the description), or as a move action to concentrate on a single target within 60 feet (as indicated in the description).
Lol, you should read the linked thread, Dust Raven. Apparently there are people on both sides who had never even considered it could be interpreted the other side's way. Essentially the discussion stalemated, as both sides conceded that it could be interpreted both ways.
I counted five resurrections of that initial thread, btw, looking at the time stamps. So it's apparently an issue that comes up often enough for people to go hunting the rules.
Hard to say. I await their response!
Interesting, I also didnt think there was a second way to read the ability. I have always interpreted it as two separate things.
I have always read it as: either the paladin uses Detect Evil as the spell OR the paladin uses a move action to determine if a target is evil.
- Gauss
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An official ruling seems to be necessary, as RAI vs RAW is again in question. But honestly I feel common sense can be applied here.
Another way to look at this rule is to compare it to the known abilities of Bo Duke, of Dukes of Hazard Fame.
True, he's not a paladin, but the Detect Evil ability works much like the Dukes 'Get in the Car' ability works.
First:
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
vs
At will, Bo Duke can open a car door and sit on the seat, as the action.Then:
A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
vs
Bo Duke can jump through the window of the car door(which will be conveniently open) and land on the seat.You do one or the other. One is not a prerequisite for the other.
A finer analogy was never written! : )
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An official ruling seems to be necessary, as RAI vs RAW is again in question. But honestly I feel common sense can be applied here.
Another way to look at this rule is to compare it to the known abilities of Bo Duke, of Dukes of Hazard Fame.
True, he's not a paladin, but the Detect Evil ability works much like the Dukes 'Get in the Car' ability works.
First:
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
vs
At will, Bo Duke can open a car door and sit on the seat, as the action.Then:
A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
vs
Bo Duke can jump through the window of the car door(which will be conveniently open) and land on the seat.You do one or the other. One is not a prerequisite for the other.
I am Dust Raven, and I approve this message.
This has once again been marked as being answered in the FAQ, and I still don't see it. Can anyone find it? Am I just missing it?
That is frustrating, you spelled out the question specifically as asked. It most certainly is not covered in the FAQ. Detect Evil is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the CRB FAQ.
- Gauss
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They mark things as answered in FAQ if it's also an obvious answer, as far as they're concerned. Maybe this is one of those things.Well, seeing as people disagree on what the "obvious" answer is, maybe it isn't so obvious:)
That's because some people see some very odd things in the rules which don't appear to be there.
Short form:
Paladins can, at will, use Detect Evil. Detect Evil requires a Standard action to use.
Paladins can, at will, use a move action on a single target within the area of their Detect Evil, jump their information on that target to the third round. I see nothing in this that says that they don't have to have Detect Evil already running to use this ability.
Obviously, others feel that, even though it only changes two rounds of concentration, two standard actions, to a single move action, that it isn't already strong enough, but that their Paladin can, as a move action, determine from a standing start if someone is evil, and how evil they are, and still have a standard action left to attack them.
No, that is way out of the ballpark, IMO.
Show me another PF ability that moves three rounds of actions to less than half a round, please?
The closest thing I can think of, and that still essentially requires both a move and a standard, is a potion of Lesser Restoration.
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Agreed. Detect evil on a paladin is a spell-like ability (Sp) and such abilities require a standard action to use (unless otherwise noted in the description). Paladin's caster level for said detect evil is his paladin level, so a 7th level paladin can maintain his detect evil for 70 minutes if he were to concentrate the whole time. The at will part simply means he can use such an ability as many times as he wants, just as a druid 20 can wild shape as many times as she wants; still takes a standard action (without Quick Wild Shape).
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Yes, I understand how other can interpret this as needing a Standard Action to get the ability started, and then a move action to use the second half, but that's not how I read it.
This is the first I've seen this interpretation.
I don't see any reason to abandon the two ways I shall continue to allow:
1) Standard as spell.
2) Move as round three of spell on one target.
So in one round you can Move to determine evil and use your standard for something.
This will never get answered in FAQ, because I don't think a lot of people use the alternative interpretation.
I agree with James and Zahir:
-Move to study one creature
-Standard as spell w/ cone, requiring concentration rounds
I agree with James and Zahir:
-Move to study one creature
-Standard as spell w/ cone, requiring concentration rounds
This is the best answer you'll find.
If it was ONLY as per the spell, why include the 2nd (and beyond) sentences? Why not just leave the first sentence and let it stand alone?
Im guessing the paladin can find out if a single target is evil in 1 round and give up the chance to see if anything else is evil instead of using 3 rounds to see if everything in the cone is evil.
it seems the move action is a speed up of just 1 round to see if a single target is evil but again u give up seeing if anything else is evil unless u do again and focus for 3 rounds.Seems pretty balanced imo.
Well, I'm going to throw my two coppers in, just based on the text in the class ability and standard Spell-like Ability rules.
But I really don't mind the way it is considered in the majority of this thread, and the Duke's example is mega-boss.
So yeah, as has been pointed out, using a Spell-like Ability is a standard action unless stated otherwise.
The first sentence of the ability is "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell." Since it ends there, this is how it is brought into being. At will (but a standard action as per SA abilities), as the spell.
Second sentence "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds." Which indicates that once activated then the paladin can do this.
So in one round a paladin can activate detect evil as a standard action, then as a move action concentrate on an individual person or object and gain all the information about that individual as if they had been concentrating on them for 3 rounds as per standard spell rules. Then as a free action the paladin can yell out "EVIL, PURE AND SIMPLE, FROM THE 8TH DIMENSION! GET 'EM!"
This gives a nice buffer for the paladin player to think long and hard (until his/her next turn) about what action should be taken.
But gain, I wouldn't consider it broken if the paladin just needed to move action to bring the spell-like-ability into action and have a standard to rush into something they may not have taken the time to think through. Works for me, either way, but if one of my players makes a paladin I'll let them know I'm going with the standard+move interpretation...barring any future errata, FAQ, better-arguments/etc., of course. :)
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The first sentence of the ability is "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell." Since it ends there, this is how it is brought into being. At will (but a standard action as per SA abilities), as the spell.Second sentence "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds." Which indicates that once activated then the paladin can do this.
I don't think the second sentence indicates anything. Lacking indication that the second sentence is tied to the first, to me, says that the second sentence stands on it's own.
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It never occurred to me that there was another interpretation. But, having re-read it, I can certainly see how other people interpret it differently. Up to now, and until there is clarification, I have always interpreted it:
Use detect evil as a standard action per the spell
or
Use detect evil as a move action per the unique paladin ability
But, never that you had to do the first to accomplish the second.
I don't think the second sentence indicates anything. Lacking indication that the second sentence is tied to the first, to me, says that the second sentence stands on it's own.The first sentence of the ability is "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell." Since it ends there, this is how it is brought into being. At will (but a standard action as per SA abilities), as the spell.
Second sentence "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds." Which indicates that once activated then the paladin can do this.
I agree there. I'm just defaulting to; since the second sentence doesn't explicitly say something like;
"Instead," which would refer to the first sentence, "a paladin can activate this ability and then" which would change the default of the standard action needed for spell-like abilities "a paladin can, as a move action..."
...that it means the paladin has to spend a standard action to activate and then, at any time while it is activated, the paladin can make a move action against a single target to detect evil as if they've concentrated for 3 rounds on it. It's a separate, self-contained, second sentence that isn't worded as to override the first sentence nor the inherent standard-action requirement of spell-like abilities.
But it's vague enough that the alternate interpretation seems valid.
It never occurred to me that there was another interpretation.
Yeah, I've never DM/GM'd a paladin in 3.0 through Pathfinder, and have only played with one in a current Pathfinder game, so it never crossed my radar until I read through this thread (no need to rule-layer the paladin at the table, hehe). Then was semi-surprised that I interpret it differently and I figure some clarification will prove me wrong at some point, but till then just "shrug" and do my best to pleasantly discuss the topic while avoiding "arguing" about it.
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If the second sentence said, "A paladin can then, as a move action..." this wouldn't be in dispute. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the second sentence that refers back to the first sentence.
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As per page 221 of the Core Rulebook, a spell-like ability takes a standard action to activate, unless otherwise noted in the description. In all other ways, the spell-like acts as per the spell.
On page 60 of the Core Rulebook, a paladin can, as a MOVE ACTION concentrate on "a single item or individual within 60 ft. and determine if it is evil, learning the strengths of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds." No where in the description, does it say that the ACTIVATION takes a move action, just the concentration and study.
Therefore....
Standard action to activate.
Move action to focus.
It takes a full round of actions to put the "stink eye" on a bad guy and see if they're really a bad guy.
As per page 221 of the Core Rulebook, a spell-like ability takes a standard action to activate, UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE DESCRIPTION. In all other ways, the spell-like acts as per the spell.
On page 60 of the Core Rulebook: "A paladin can, AS A MOVE ACTION, concentrate on "a single item or individual within 60 ft. and determine if it is evil, learning the strengths of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds."
Therefore....
You emphasized the wrong parts of your post. I cleaned it up a bit for you. =)
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You emphasized the wrong parts of your post. I cleaned it up a bit for you. =)As per page 221 of the Core Rulebook, a spell-like ability takes a standard action to activate, UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE DESCRIPTION. In all other ways, the spell-like acts as per the spell.
On page 60 of the Core Rulebook: "A paladin can, AS A MOVE ACTION, concentrate on "a single item or individual within 60 ft. and determine if it is evil, learning the strengths of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds."
Therefore....
:D
LOL! Thanks!
@Bizbag - I can see both interpretations but your theory is debunked because, even after taking a standard and a move, the paladin could still smite as a swift action.
Actually, he cannot.
Ha can activate his smite as a Swift action... but for doing anything that actually smites the target (i.e. attacking), he'll need to use a standard action or better.
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@Bizbag - I can see both interpretations but your theory is debunked because, even after taking a standard and a move, the paladin could still smite as a swift action.Actually, he cannot.
Ha can activate his smite as a Swift action... but for doing anything that actually smites the target (i.e. attacking), he'll need to use a standard action or better.
Activating smite and attacking are two different things. I was only clarifying that the paladin could still smite after a standard and a move. Bizbag didn't mention attacking, only smiting. And, as William already mentioned, the paladin would still benefit from the AC bonus.
I am on the side of the either/or interpretation and that's how I run it so this argument is moot with me.
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Paladin's are always put into the Lawful "Stupid" catagory, thanks to early days of roleplaying. Pathfinder makes them much more tactical. If I were a paladin, and entered a room, I'd to the snapshot detect and bring up my defenses, calling on my God to protect me while I bring the whooping on the evi bad dude in front of me. Smite is offensive and defensive. The paladin is entering into a holy quest to strike down something evil. The God's give them tools to hand out that can of whoop [you know what], and stay alive while they do so.
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I don't think the second sentence indicates anything. Lacking indication that the second sentence is tied to the first, to me, says that the second sentence stands on it's own.
The first sentence of the ability is "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell." Since it ends there, this is how it is brought into being. At will (but a standard action as per SA abilities), as the spell.Second sentence "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds." Which indicates that once activated then the paladin can do this.
You don't consider that the secopnd sentence refers to the first, since the normal way Detect Evil works is that you can cast it/use it as a standard action, and then spend three rounds concentrating, to modify just the then spend three rounds concentrating part?
Normal:
Cast/Use Detect Evil (burn standard) - is there evil in the cone? Yes/No
Concentrate (burn standard) for another round - number of evil sources?
Concentrate (burn standard) for another round - location and strength of evil auras
Paladin:
Use Detect Evil (burn standard) - is there evil in the cone? Yes/No
Move on creature in cone of Detect Evil (burn move) - is this creature the source of the evil feeling, and what strength is their evil aura, if they are the one with it?
As it should be interpreted, IMO, it is a good bonus for locating the evil a bit more quickly, if you are lucky. As some of you want it to work, it is OP and not in-line with very many other abilities from Core.
I'm joining this thread a bit late, but after glancing through it and the link, why exactly does this need to be FAQ'd?
(Sp): "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell."
What are the rules of this? (Sp), so doesn't provoke to use. Unlimited uses per day. "As the spell" means 1 Standard Action to cast and a Duration of Concentration. Concentration rules say Standard Action must be spent to maintain.
Now the rest of the text:
"A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or single individual..."
This is not a separate ability. The SLA is not giving the Paladin the ability to "cast" Detect Evil as a Move Action. This text is describing the change to the Concentration rules. Once he has activated it as normal, he can choose to either use a Standard Action to scan the cone like a normal Detect Evil round after round or to use a Move Action to auto-scan a single target "as if having studied it for 3 rounds."
Seems straight forward enough.
Obviously it's not that straight forward if there are so many people on both sides of the fence.
And, FYI, spell-like abilities do provoke AoOs.
Yes, you are correct. I misspoke there. I should proof read before I post. heh
As for straight forward, I agree it is not. I was saying the rules would seem to be. But hence, why else are we on this part of the message boards. ;)
No need for Touche'. I'm not sparing with you...yet. :)
As for the text, if it was talking about a separate ability, it would say something like "A paladin can also, as a move action..."
Or "A paladin can instead, as a move action..."
There is no indication of this. The text is referring to the change of the regular concentration cost to a shortcut. But both require the spell to be active first before you get to the concentration part.
(I'm Elbedor and I 'aproofread' this message)
As per page 221 of the Core Rulebook, a spell-like ability takes a standard action to activate, unless otherwise noted in the description. In all other ways, the spell-like acts as per the spell.
On page 60 of the Core Rulebook, a paladin can, as a MOVE ACTION concentrate on "a single item or individual within 60 ft. and determine if it is evil, learning the strengths of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds." No where in the description, does it say that the ACTIVATION takes a move action, just the concentration and study.
Therefore....
Standard action to activate.
Move action to focus.It takes a full round of actions to put the "stink eye" on a bad guy and see if they're really a bad guy.
I wanted to add onto to ur post about studying. HOW is the paladin able to study the aruas unless detect evil is already activated? Like u pointed out the move action says nothing about activating, only studying. If theres no activation how is the paladin able to see and study the aruas if detect evil isnt up?
I agree its a standard to use detect evil and then a move action afterwards to see if that one person is evil or not.
Unless someone can explain how as a move action someone can study aruas and be ae yo identify evil aruas without having detect evil up