How does the Paladin's detect evil ability really work?


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Grand Lodge

46 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

How does the Paladin's detect evil ability really work?

It has been suggested that the Paladin's detect evil ability can work one of two ways as listed in the core rulebook.

Here is what is listed in the book...

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as
the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on
a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine
if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having
studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual
or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other
object or individual within range.

One of my players says that a Paladin's detect evil gives them the ability to detect evil as the spell as a standard action normally and would take 3 rounds to gain all the benefits of that spell. He also says that as a separate use a paladin can as a move action focus on one individual, and only one individual, to gain all the benefits of the spell for that one individual. So he would as a move action detect evil on one individual to see if the individual is evil, then use his swift action to use smite evil, and then use his standard action to attack the individual if possible.

Another of my players says that a paladin can as a standard action detect evil, normally, but then could focus on one individual as a move action to gain all the benefits for that one individual. In other words, the second play is saying that you have to use your standard action to use detect evil and then your move action to focus on one individual to gain all the benefits for that individual which would require that the standard action use of detect evil is active before you can use the move action use of detect evil.

Which of these is the correct way to use this ability.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

In one turn,
Detect Evil - Standard Action
(Focus on target) - Move Action
Smite - Swift Action

And that's your turn

Since Detecting Evil and Attacking are both standard actions, you can't do both in one turn. However you can split it up over the course of two turns.


tough call, could go either way, faq'd it


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Not necessary to FAQ.

The paladin can either:

1) As a standard action Detect Evil as per the spell; or

2) As a move action Detect Evil on one creature.

The first player's right.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

No where in the spell description does it ever mention what happens when you move, according to the way it reads, one is lead to believe that it only affects the area you cast it upon. Meaning you'd have to cast it again after moving 60 feet, unless you look back at the area you just scanned, but that seems a little restrictive for a spell that lasts 10 minutes a level.


I would agree with that assumption, if detect evil was already running, as it is a concentration duration spell. Using it as a move action seperate to casting detect evil is a little counter intuitive. More language is needed to clearly define the actions represented there.

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as
the spell.
As well a paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on
a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine
if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having
studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual
or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other
object or individual within range.

As they are connected it is difficult to see if this is an addition to the already cast detect evil.

Lastly, spell-like abilities are usually standard actions.

Like I said I can see both ways, and flagged it. As a player I would grossly prefer detect evil as a move action for sure.


Kais86 wrote:
No where in the spell description does it ever mention what happens when you move, according to the way it reads, one is lead to believe that it only affects the area you cast it upon. Meaning you'd have to cast it again after moving 60 feet, unless you look back at the area you just scanned, but that seems a little restrictive for a spell that lasts 10 minutes a level.

It's duration is 'Concentration'.

p.216 of Core RB describes this in more detail: Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when
casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration on page 206.

So you cast it (Standard) and move (Move)

Next round you concentrate (Standard) and move (Move)

The paladin however can concentrate as a move action

Grand Lodge

This is why I tend to rely on my judgment (and not the Inquisitor ability), though in questionable circumstances I will use it. However most of the time it's see evil, smite evil.

@Tanis: They can concentrate for detect evil only.


@ Glutton: But the bit you bolded explains it, doesn't it?

Detect Evil:Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. As wella paladin can, as a move action...

As well means the Paladin can do either.

You're right that Spell-like Abilities are usually standard actions, but this specifically states that it is an exception.


Ah you see the bolded text was added by yours truly to showcase what was needed in there, read the actual description it doesn't exist, making it murky :). I'd gladly quit my job to be a proof-reader sometimes.


lol m'bad :/

Just so we're on the same page, here's why i think it's adequately explained:

At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

It states that the Paladin can use Detect Evil as per the spell. As stated before, this is a Spell-Like Ability.

It also says it can as a move action, focus on an individual or object, learning all strengths as if having studied it for 3 rnds.

At the very least, even if you didn't interpret that to meaning s/he can do either, it would read that you activate Detect Evil as a move action.

I'm a bit confused by the confusion, to be honest.


Where does he/she get the ability that he/she is concentrating from? :)

I just wonder if they mean it it as a)can be cast as a move action or b)can be concentrated on in its limited ability as a move action.

To be honest the very fact 6 people have been intrigued enough by this question to post on it in the dead of night is enough to let me drop it and flag it for faq, and then sleep. Appears I'm the only one who felt a good faq'in was in order though.

I mean, even if you are correct, or I am correct, other people far in the future might wonder the same thing, isn't it best to leave them a legacy? :)


middle of the night? damn time difference! lol


Tanis wrote:

middle of the night? damn time difference! lol

11:42 Pm -"}}}><


I would subscribe to the ruling to Ion Raven's ruling and is how I run it with my games and Paladin PCs. The ability reads:

Paladin's Class Feature wrote:
"Detect Evil (SP): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell."

Additionally:

Spell-like abilities wrote:
"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."

With the definition of a SLA in mind, the meaning of "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate..." becomes a bit more clear. With a standard action, the paladin gets a sense of if evil is present or not in a 60 foot cone (round 1 of Detect Evil). By using her move action, she gains the information of the spell as though she had been concentrating for 3 rounds (power of the aura). But, if they focus on an item/creature/person who is not evil, they must spend another move action to re-focus.

Hope this helps. :)


Squeeks wrote:


With the definition of a SLA in mind, the meaning of "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate..." becomes a bit more clear. With a standard action, the paladin gets a sense of if evil is present or not in a 60 foot cone (round 1 of Detect Evil). By using her move action, she gains the information of the spell as though she had been concentrating for 3 rounds (power of the aura). But, if they focus on an item/creature/person who is not evil, they must spend another move action to re-focus.

Hope this helps. :)

I tend to agree with this^. Still means old boy is out of action for a round, but when he gets to go again, something is getting whumped upon :)


The paladin's ability does not let her generally Detect Evil in a cone. The paladin's ability lets her use Detect Evil as a move action against a specified target; that's it.

Shadow Lodge

AvalonXQ wrote:
The paladin's ability does not let her generally Detect Evil in a cone. The paladin's ability lets her use Detect Evil as a move action against a specified target; that's it.

Umm... No. Read the ability: At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as

the spell.

Notice the period at the end? If they couldn't use the spell normally, there would be an exception added to that sentence. The rest of their Detect Evil ability gives an addition to the power as others have mentioned. Once the spell is activated they can concentrate on one individual as a move action to learn if they have an evil aura and how strong it is if so. If they couldn't use it normally they would have written it something like:

Detect Evil: As a move action a paladin can focus on an individual and detect their evil aura as if they had used Detect Evil for three rounds.

The way it is currently written shows they can use it normally, but they can then focus on one target instead of seeing everything in the cone and learn things about that target faster.

Grand Lodge

Tanis wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
No where in the spell description does it ever mention what happens when you move, according to the way it reads, one is lead to believe that it only affects the area you cast it upon. Meaning you'd have to cast it again after moving 60 feet, unless you look back at the area you just scanned, but that seems a little restrictive for a spell that lasts 10 minutes a level.

It's duration is 'Concentration'.

p.216 of Core RB describes this in more detail: Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when
casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration on page 206.

So you cast it (Standard) and move (Move)

Next round you concentrate (Standard) and move (Move)

The paladin however can concentrate as a move action

I thought about this a little more, yes you can concentrate to keep it on, but what that really means is you can keep that 60 foot cone going, the one you started with. That still makes the spell kind of crappy, even for a level 1 spell.


(Casts "Resurrect Thread")

Has no Paizo game designer answered this?!? This FAQ business seems to be going very slowly - which is quite annoying, as I have PF paladins in two of the groups which I'm running.


Huh.


Tanis wrote:

Not necessary to FAQ.

The paladin can either:

1) As a standard action Detect Evil as per the spell; or

2) As a move action Detect Evil on one creature.

The first player's right.

I agree with this.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Know what would be cool? If Paizo sold the time required to answer FAQs.

Pause.

Seriously, if we could say... tentatively invest a few bucks each towards threads we really want a developer answer on, we might get somewhere.

This thread has 14 people who marked it. I haven't because... well... to a degree why bother? But imagine if each of us had agreed to donate $3. There'd be $45 in profit available to Paizo. Now I recognize that someone like Jason or Sean makes the company much more per hour of their labour, but at least at $45 we'd be covering an hour or two of their wages.

I work in a technical field and we bill a good $100/hr. Okay, so what's the billing rate we can pay a Paizo developer to answer a question? Maybe we need to donate more than $3 each, maybe we need more people willing to donate.

But really, while there's been a handful of FAQ answers in the last two weeks, I suspect there are dozens of threads like this one that everyone's given up on.

Maybe there could be a FAQ subscription. Just bill me $15 a month and let's get some ambiguously worded rules clarified.

Just a thought.

Grand Lodge

This question comes up 50% of the time I play my paladin in PFS. Half the GMs I play with tell me I can't use detect evil as the spell and can only focus on a single thing.


Narl wrote:
This question comes up 50% of the time I play my paladin in PFS. Half the GMs I play with tell me I can't use detect evil as the spell and can only focus on a single thing.

Now, this is direct contradiction to the very first sentence of the ability description.

.

CRB wrote:
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

Which means, you have Detect Evil as an at-will spell-like ability.

The rest of the entry defines optional uses.

The only open question is whether or not the Pally needs to have his Detect Evil up and running to be able to use a move action to focus, as opposed to being able to fire up a focused Detect Evil from standby.


"While focusing on one individual
or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other
object or individual within range."
This implies that Detect Evil must be active in order to focus, which means the second player is correct.


Honestly, I always read the way the 1st player does. The paladin's Detect is not the same as the regular version. It's something special.

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as
the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on
a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine
if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having
studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual
or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other
object or individual within range.

When I see the words "at Will' I take it just as that AT WILL. No components, no casting time, no rule nitpicking 'spell like abilities' I read 'As the spell' to mean they don't want to type it all out again.

Read the Detect Evil spell, that's the definition of what the spell does.

So by my reading, At will, a paladin can Detect evil 'as the spell' in a general area and take 3 rounds to track things down...

or As a move action he can concentrate on one creature/thing... and the spell works differently.

Needing to use a Standard action to turn it on, then a move action to focus is severly nerfing the ability...


'At will' means there is no limit to the number of times per day that the ability can be used. 'Spell-like ability' means it has no components and requires a standard action to use (among other things). These are both defined game terms, no interpretation necessary.

I don't see how needing a standard action to activate it is a severe nerf. It means he has an at will SLA that works just like every other SLA, except with the bonus move action ability over top of the normal benefits.


I was kinda hoping this thread would be a discussion on exactly how does a Paladin DETECT this evil...

Does he see an aura around the bad guy (everyone else has no aura but a blue/black cloud seems to hover about the snake oil salesman)? Does the bad guy appear differently to the Paladin under the effect (to everyone else the shopkeeper seems to be a little old man in a vest, but the Paladin sees a leering demon with a forked tongue), is there a sonar ping that goes out and only pings back if evil (volume denoting the level of evil), Is there a giant bouncing arrow of evil over the head of bad guys?
Does a HUD like display come up on the Paladin's vision with a annotated breakdown of all beings in line of sight? Do bad guys get an effect like all of Frodo's visions when he puts on the ring in the LOTR movies? Do they pop up similar to infra red signatures?

Lots of options and I see it in my head a little differently for each character I've played....

What do you guys envision going on here?


I have always understood it as modifying the *usage* of the spell, not the *initiation* of the spell. Note it doesn't say, "In addition..." and doesn't even begin a new paragraph. So, in a game I'm GMing, the paladin can cast Detect Evil as a spell like ability, and while that spell is already active, can use a move action to do what would ordinarily take 3 rounds.


Anguish wrote:

Know what would be cool? If Paizo sold the time required to answer FAQs.

Pause.

Seriously, if we could say... tentatively invest a few bucks each towards threads we really want a developer answer on, we might get somewhere.

This thread has 14 people who marked it. I haven't because... well... to a degree why bother? But imagine if each of us had agreed to donate $3. There'd be $45 in profit available to Paizo. Now I recognize that someone like Jason or Sean makes the company much more per hour of their labour, but at least at $45 we'd be covering an hour or two of their wages.

I work in a technical field and we bill a good $100/hr. Okay, so what's the billing rate we can pay a Paizo developer to answer a question? Maybe we need to donate more than $3 each, maybe we need more people willing to donate.

But really, while there's been a handful of FAQ answers in the last two weeks, I suspect there are dozens of threads like this one that everyone's given up on.

Maybe there could be a FAQ subscription. Just bill me $15 a month and let's get some ambiguously worded rules clarified.

Just a thought.

I kind of like this idea, though modified. I saw it used on feature requests on a programming project once. When FAQing a question, let people set a "bounty" on it. Wouldn't even have to be a set amount - one person might value the answer at 1 cent, another at $5. In any case, the more important the question, the higher the bounty on it will be just because more people will be paying. When the question gets answered, Paizo gets the bounty. Or heck, maybe the staff member who answered it gets the bounty as a bonus, so they compete to answer the highest priced questions the fastest. And since they are racing to answer questions, the FAQ questions get answered more swiftly. Everyone wins.

Shadow Lodge

Moglun wrote:

'At will' means there is no limit to the number of times per day that the ability can be used. 'Spell-like ability' means it has no components and requires a standard action to use (among other things). These are both defined game terms, no interpretation necessary.

I don't see how needing a standard action to activate it is a severe nerf. It means he has an at will SLA that works just like every other SLA, except with the bonus move action ability over top of the normal benefits.

What you're looking for here is the "unless otherwise noted" part in the spell-like ability definition. The paladin's second use of detect evil as a (Sp) is a move action, because it says it's a move action.


Serum wrote:


What you're looking for here is the "unless otherwise noted" part in the spell-like ability definition. The paladin's second use of detect evil as a (Sp) is a move action, because it says it's a move action.

Yes, but as Derek indicated it is described as something you do after the Detect Evil ability has been activated.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:
Anguish wrote:

Know what would be cool? If Paizo sold the time required to answer FAQs.

Pause.

Seriously, if we could say... tentatively invest a few bucks each towards threads we really want a developer answer on, we might get somewhere.

This thread has 14 people who marked it. I haven't because... well... to a degree why bother? But imagine if each of us had agreed to donate $3. There'd be $45 in profit available to Paizo. Now I recognize that someone like Jason or Sean makes the company much more per hour of their labour, but at least at $45 we'd be covering an hour or two of their wages.

I work in a technical field and we bill a good $100/hr. Okay, so what's the billing rate we can pay a Paizo developer to answer a question? Maybe we need to donate more than $3 each, maybe we need more people willing to donate.

But really, while there's been a handful of FAQ answers in the last two weeks, I suspect there are dozens of threads like this one that everyone's given up on.

Maybe there could be a FAQ subscription. Just bill me $15 a month and let's get some ambiguously worded rules clarified.

Just a thought.

I kind of like this idea, though modified. I saw it used on feature requests on a programming project once. When FAQing a question, let people set a "bounty" on it. Wouldn't even have to be a set amount - one person might value the answer at 1 cent, another at $5. In any case, the more important the question, the higher the bounty on it will be just because more people will be paying. When the question gets answered, Paizo gets the bounty. Or heck, maybe the staff member who answered it gets the bounty as a bonus, so they compete to answer the highest priced questions the fastest. And since they are racing to answer questions, the FAQ questions get answered more swiftly. Everyone wins.

....

On the SURFACE, this sounds like a really nice idea and a way to tell the Paizo staff we appreciate them.

However, I think thats really a TERRIBLE idea in the 'big picture' way. To understand this fully... You're suggesting that we pay $50 for a book... and $3-$15 everytime we have a question about that book????

I was just discussing Kickstarter with a friend, and the same concept came up...

When did companies want US to finance their work? The Reaper one is awesome... since it's basically a presale. and what we're getting is WAY over the value of what we have to donate to get it... ( Seriously... go there and get us all more stuff ;) )

Reaper Kickstarter

However, As much as I enjoyed the Gamers movie... and as much as I hope there is another one... I want to buy the movie, not produce it.

I think if a gaming company (not just Paizo) were to charge for clarifications to their books... we could expect to see a lot more vaguely written books!!

FAQs and stuff are intended to plug up the holes that slipped through during editing/playtesting... not as a seperate line of income.


phantom1592 wrote:
Derek Vande Brake wrote:
...

....

On the SURFACE, this sounds like a really nice idea and a way to tell the Paizo staff we appreciate them.

However, I think thats really a TERRIBLE idea in the 'big picture' way. To understand this fully... You're suggesting that we pay $50 for a book... and $3-$15 everytime we have a question about that book????

I was just discussing Kickstarter with a friend, and the same concept came up...

When did companies want US to finance their work? The Reaper one is awesome... since it's basically a presale. and what we're getting is WAY over the value of what we have to donate to get it... ( Seriously... go there and get us all more stuff ;) )

Reaper Kickstarter

However, As much as I enjoyed the Gamers movie... and as much as I hope there is another one... I want to buy the movie, not produce it.

I think if a gaming company (not just Paizo) were to charge for clarifications to their books... we could expect to see a lot more vaguely written books!!

FAQs and stuff are intended to plug up the holes that slipped through during editing/playtesting... not as a seperate line of income.

That's a very good point. I don't agree with all of what you said, mind you, but there is definitely a moral hazard in incentives for clarifying previous work. It's like a mechanic fixing a problem on your car, but loosening a hose or bolt so you have to go back and pay him to fix that, too.


The Paladin's detect evil is spell-like, meaning it follows the spell's normal cast time unless stated otherwise (or standard action if it's not like any actual spell).

Detect evil is standard action.

The "move action" line gives an additional ability. You still have to cast the spell-like, but you can concentrate on a single object as a move.

If this altered the cast time, it would be stated as a cast time.

Another spell that functions similarly and uses pretty much the same language: Arcane Sight.

Detect evil only lasts as long as concentrating. So you have to keep using standard actions to keep it up.

Silver Crusade

The language of the ability does not have one kind of use (the move action thing) depend on the other kind of use (the 'as the spell 'thing).

The first player is correct. 'A paladin can, as a move action,...etc.' is a statement that stands by itself. The last part just means that while using the cut-down move action version that you don't also get the normal, cone-shaped emanation.

Also, for the spell-like version or the actual spell (NOT the move action variety) it is an Emanation. These '...continue to emanate from the point of origin...' and, since the point of origin is the paladin (or spellcaster) then it moves with him.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:


Also, for the spell-like version or the actual spell (NOT the move action variety) it is an Emanation. These '...continue to emanate from the point of origin...' and, since the point of origin is the paladin (or spellcaster) then it moves with him.

With all due respect, this cannot be the case. It would make the cone-shape effect meaningless...there being otherwise no facing.


Detect Evil and its wording seem to suggest the Paladin has an option to do one of two things. The Paladin can either:

A. Cast the Detect Evil Spell at-will as a Standard Action, following the guidelines and mechanics of the spell itself.

B. Use the clause noted within the Paladin's Detect Evil.

Detect Evil ([i wrote:

SP[/i])]At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

All Emphasis Mine.

I don't see how it's that difficult. The RAW says the Paladin has two options, meaning he has an At-Will Detect Evil Spell, as well as a special ability to use its effects on a single target completely as a move action.

The only other argument is that the RAW also supports the wording of the Paladin using the spell as a Standard Action, and that the concentration count can be compressed to that of a move-action if only focusing on one target (which is pretty lame, and somewhat contradicts the last part of the ability's statement).

It's up to the GM to houserule it and/or make a call until it's errata'd. I say it's the first type, but one can argue that Paladins are broken as it is and that they need less action economy to make up for how broken they are, and say the other is more appropriate.

Silver Crusade

Why are paladins broken?

As for the cone-shaped emanation moving with the paladin/spellcaster, when the paladin spends the (usually) standard action to concentrate to keep Detect Evil going, he chooses which way to detect; which way to orient the cone bearing in mind his position at that moment.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Why are paladins broken?

As for the cone-shaped emanation moving with the paladin/spellcaster, when the paladin spends the (usually) standard action to concentrate to keep Detect Evil going, he chooses which way to detect; which way to orient the cone bearing in mind his position at that moment.

By broken, I mean overpowered. If Paladins were broke, nobody would play them (or could, since they'd not even be viable).


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Detect Evil and its wording seem to suggest the Paladin has an option to do one of two things. The Paladin can either:

A. Cast the Detect Evil Spell at-will as a Standard Action, following the guidelines and mechanics of the spell itself.

B. Use the clause noted within the Paladin's Detect Evil.

Detect Evil ([i wrote:

SP[/i])]At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

All Emphasis Mine.

I don't see how it's that difficult. The RAW says the Paladin has two options, meaning he has an At-Will Detect Evil Spell, as well as a special ability to use its effects on a single target completely as a move action.

The only other argument is that the RAW also supports the wording of the Paladin using the spell as a Standard Action, and that the concentration count can be compressed to that of a move-action if only focusing on one target (which is pretty lame, and somewhat contradicts the last part of the ability's statement).

It's up to the GM to houserule it and/or make a call until it's errata'd. I say it's the first type, but one can argue that Paladins are broken as it is and that they need less action economy to make up for how broken they are, and say the other is more appropriate.

All emphasis yours... and also all formatting. There is no line break in the book or on the PRD. Further, the second line says nothing about using detect evil, only about concentrating.

Your opinions of the relative brokeness of the class and the "lameness" of interpretation notwithstanding, I'd say it is far more clear that the second line modifies how a paladin can use an already active detect evil. The move action gives him the info in one move action what would ordinarily take 3 rounds, but at the cost of gaining other information in the area of detection. There is no contradiction here - ordinarily detect evil, when used for three rounds, still registers all sources of evil.

Silver Crusade

I don't think it's 'far more clear' at all. If it were that clear there wouldn't be a debate about it on this thread!

When I first read the paladin entry in the core rulebook (when it first came out) I understood it to mean that, in addition to the spell-like Detect Evil ability that paladins had in 3.5, that the PF paladin could 'check-out' a single target as a move action. It never once entered my head that the full version had to be running in order to use it! In fact, reading the OPs post was my first exposure to the contrary opinion!

Now that the other possibility has been brought to my attention, a re-reading of the ability doesn't solve the dilemma; it can, quite reasonably, be read either way. In the absence of an official response we'll have to use our judgement.

I try to imagine why the devs chose to add that ability. The obvious source of the paladin's need is the strong desire not to waste the single use (to begin with) of his signature combat ability. Therefore the devs made it so Detect Evil could be used in combat, which is when Smite Evil is used. In combat a paladin, like any other warrior-type, should be spending his actions to attack the bad guys. It seems unreasonable to me that the devs intended paladins to spend their standard actions concentrating on Detect Evil instead. Hence the ability to use it as a move action in a more limited but 'useful in combat' kind of way. If you require the Detect Evil to be running, that means both your standard and your move action must be used to do this, and that's not attacking the baddies at all! Why would the devs modify the way Detect Evil is used if the only effect is to make it more action-heavy than it was?

I believe that it is much more credible that the devs modified this ability specifically to allow paladins to be able to check that a target in combat is a viable target for Smite Evil WITHOUT losing attacks to do so. (please forgive the capitals, I can't get the hang if the italics thing).

They didn't want to take away the non-combat utility of Detect Evil, so they didn't replace it for PF, just added a new way to detect evil.

On a separate note, while I'm in no way new to D&D or it's variants (30+ years), I am new to the worlds of computers and fora like these. Is the opinion that PF paladins are 'brokenly' powerful a widely held view? My opinion of 3.5 paladins is that compared poorly in combat compared to the other three warrior-type core classes. That version of Smite Evil was useable on one single attack per day! The fighter, ranger and barbarian combat bonuses either last all day or [con mod+5 rounds] per rage. When I read the PF paladin he now has a smite that lasts a comparable amount of time. The other three classes improved too, so I saw it as 'balancing' rather than 'unbalancing'.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

I don't think it's 'far more clear' at all. If it were that clear there wouldn't be a debate about it on this thread!

When I first read the paladin entry in the core rulebook (when it first came out) I understood it to mean that, in addition to the spell-like Detect Evil ability that paladins had in 3.5, that the PF paladin could 'check-out' a single target as a move action. It never once entered my head that the full version had to be running in order to use it! In fact, reading the OPs post was my first exposure to the contrary opinion!

Now that the other possibility has been brought to my attention, a re-reading of the ability doesn't solve the dilemma; it can, quite reasonably, be read either way. In the absence of an official response we'll have to use our judgement.

This.

Although I always read it the other way to Malachi, now that I've seen this thread it is obvious how ambiguous it is. Since none of my players have ever complained, I'll keep requiring the standard action first, but only because that's what I've previously established.


If the "first line is flavor" (which I remember reading somewhere on these forums) measure is used, then we get:

"A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on
a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine
if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having
studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual
or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other
object or individual within range."

Which suggests that it gives the paladin a single ability instead of two - closely related, but nevertheless distinguishable - abilities.

The main objection I have to this approach is that "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell," would be the least flavorful flavor text available at the time.

Also worth mentioning is that Detect Evil is not on the paladin's spell list, which it really would be, if they couldn't do it perfectly well without casting a spell. This trumps everything else, I think. So it's really two abilities with no flavor.

As to HOW it works, a paladins can (literally) smell the presence of evil. THAT is what the missing flavor should have said.

Silver Crusade

What made me even look at this thread in the first place was a belief that it would be about the 'flavour' of magically detecting evil. Imagine my surprise when it turns out that there is another way to interpret the game mechanics!

Do evil things 'smell' evil? Do hairs on the back of your neck stand up in the presence? Do you get a 'head's up display' overlay on your vision highlighting the morally questionable?

At could be described in many different ways. I recommend that your paladin 'picks a lane'. He can describe it how he wants, but it should remain consistent for an individual unless there is some reason for it to 'evolve'. The only thing to bear in mind is that, however it is described, it cannot change the game mechanics.


If he doesn't have to turn on Detect Evil before using the move action to concentrate on one object, then why does it say "While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range"? That would be irrelevant if DE didn't need to be on beforehand.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

I don't think it's 'far more clear' at all. If it were that clear there wouldn't be a debate about it on this thread!

When I first read the paladin entry in the core rulebook (when it first came out) I understood it to mean that, in addition to the spell-like Detect Evil ability that paladins had in 3.5, that the PF paladin could 'check-out' a single target as a move action. It never once entered my head that the full version had to be running in order to use it! In fact, reading the OPs post was my first exposure to the contrary opinion!

Now that the other possibility has been brought to my attention, a re-reading of the ability doesn't solve the dilemma; it can, quite reasonably, be read either way. In the absence of an official response we'll have to use our judgement.

I try to imagine why the devs chose to add that ability. The obvious source of the paladin's need is the strong desire not to waste the single use (to begin with) of his signature combat ability. Therefore the devs made it so Detect Evil could be used in combat, which is when Smite Evil is used. In combat a paladin, like any other warrior-type, should be spending his actions to attack the bad guys. It seems unreasonable to me that the devs intended paladins to spend their standard actions concentrating on Detect Evil instead. Hence the ability to use it as a move action in a more limited but 'useful in combat' kind of way. If you require the Detect Evil to be running, that means both your standard and your move action must be used to do this, and that's not attacking the baddies at all! Why would the devs modify the way Detect Evil is used if the only effect is to make it more action-heavy than it was?

I believe that it is much more credible that the devs modified this ability specifically to allow paladins to be able to check that a target in combat is a viable target for Smite Evil WITHOUT losing attacks to do so. (please forgive the capitals, I can't get the hang if the italics thing).

They didn't want to take away the...

I apologize for the 'far more clear' comment - I was replying to someone who used similar language in the opposite direction and I guess I was mildly annoyed when I posted, which is a bad idea.

But your comment on 3.5 gave me the idea of going to check that... and it turns out the 3.5 paladin doesn't even have the second line. (I knew I was remembering correctly that a 3.5 paladin had to basically stare at someone for 18 seconds to learn if they were evil.) Given that, having to waste a round to make sure your ability will be used seems like an upgrade. Sure, it is still a round not attacking, but you have to give up something for the decreased risk of wasting your smite.

Also note that at 1st level, almost any enemy the paladin faces will NOT register as evil. Only evil outsiders, undead, clerics, and antipaladins will blip on his radar below 4 hit dice and two of those you really don't need the ability. By the time anybody else detects at 5 hit dice, the paladin will have more than one smite per day. So adding the move action part just for the benefit of low level paladins to save on smite-wasting is not very effective.


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StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Tanis wrote:

Not necessary to FAQ.

The paladin can either:

1) As a standard action Detect Evil as per the spell; or

2) As a move action Detect Evil on one creature.

The first player's right.

I agree with this.

same here :-)

Silver Crusade

Moglun wrote:
If he doesn't have to turn on Detect Evil before using the move action to concentrate on one object, then why does it say "While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range"? That would be irrelevant if DE didn't need to be on beforehand.

The answer is that the devs anticipated sneaky players activating the move action version then claiming they get all the info the full version gives.

An analogy is that the full version is like a video camera, constantly going until you fail to use an action to maintain it. The move action version is like a photograph, instant but only examining a single target. What's more, I believe that having the two versions work independently is RAI. I know we can all say that, but if I were a betting man (and I work in a casino so I'm not :p ) then I'd bet that any official errata agrees. We'll have to wait and see, and I'm hoping we don't wait too long!

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