Hang on there. Only twice your barbarian level can be converted to nonlethal. For you that's a hard cap of 22. After making 22 damage vanish you apply normal DR of 18 (I assume you're fighting defensively) for a total of 40 damage negated. Remember that energy attacks will stil bypass half of this no problem.
How the DR is applied vs. lethal and non-lethal is also up for interpretation. I do agree with Writer's interpretation, since it is two different types of damage being applied against the barbarian, then both his regular DR and his DR vs. non-lethal should apply against each damage type. Why shouldn't the DR be applied twice?
You misunderstand. It's a questions about when you have Guarded Life kick in. If it kicks in after you've already applied your regular DR, then it splits your damage up and lets it pass through your DR again. Technically that might mean applying your DR/- twice and your DR/lethal once. That's what I meant by applying twice. Spreading it across DRs is not a problem. You've got the right interpretation there.
The problem I just ran into is that when raging at level 12, Guarded Life bumps Sven's effective DR up to 40. The question is when does it kick in. His DR 18/- is already reducing hits, so does the additional damage have to drop him below 0 for it to kick in the other DR 24/lethal, or does he get to start using his DR 40/- immediately?
It matters when he's at 20hp and somebody hits him for 22 lethal damage. With his DR 18/-, he's taking 4 damage. That doesn't let him use Guarded Life. If it applies before, then 22 damage is enough to flip the Guarded Life switch and make him take no damage. Which is it? 4 damage or no damage?
The only way this works in my head is if it's the 'no damage' option but that just seems so strong.
I interpret it as he would take no damage. This will keep him at 20 if he was to take 22 damage, since all 22 damage is converted to nonlethal. But it also means the DR 18/- can't be factored in twice. : / i didn't think people though such a thing is possible. 40 is insane enough.
I am confused say I am using all my damage reduction from Stalwart I take I have dr 18/- I have 20 hp left. I take 50 damage from a longsword applied against my dr 18/-
that is 32 damage left I then start to "die" then 22 damage of that is converted to non lethal which applies against my DR/26 non lethal. then i in reality only take 10 damage and am only down to 10 HPs left. correct?
my HP math may be off but you get the idea.
I am confused say I am using all my damage reduction from Stalwart I take I have dr 18/- I have 20 hp left. I take 50 damage from a longsword applied against my dr 18/-
that is 32 damage left I then start to "die" then 22 damage of that is converted to non lethal which applies against my DR/26 non lethal. then i in reality only take 10 damage and am only down to 10 HPs left. correct?
my HP math may be off but you get the idea.
While the initial concept might be off the end result is indeed correct.
While the initial concept might be off the end result is indeed correct.I am confused say I am using all my damage reduction from Stalwart I take I have dr 18/- I have 20 hp left. I take 50 damage from a longsword applied against my dr 18/-
that is 32 damage left I then start to "die" then 22 damage of that is converted to non lethal which applies against my DR/26 non lethal. then i in reality only take 10 damage and am only down to 10 HPs left. correct?
my HP math may be off but you get the idea.
why is that so terrible? it seems fair to me I dont understadn how people are saying I apply dr/18- 2 x
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
While the initial concept might be off the end result is indeed correct.I am confused say I am using all my damage reduction from Stalwart I take I have dr 18/- I have 20 hp left. I take 50 damage from a longsword applied against my dr 18/-
that is 32 damage left I then start to "die" then 22 damage of that is converted to non lethal which applies against my DR/26 non lethal. then i in reality only take 10 damage and am only down to 10 HPs left. correct?
my HP math may be off but you get the idea.
I hate to step back in and further muddy the waters but I don't think that's accurate either. Let's have a look at the relevant text:
Guarded Life (Ex)
Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points, 1 hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage. If the barbarian is at negative hit points due to lethal damage, she immediately stabilizes.
Guarded Life, Greater (Ex)
Benefit: When using the guarded life rage power, 1 additional hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage.
Invulnerable Rager
At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage.
Now the way I read this (and I'm certainly open to it needing to be FAQ'ed) is that the benefits of Guarded Life don't kick in until you would actually be reduced below 0 hit points and the conversion takes place at a 1 for 1 rate.
For instance, let's say I'm a 20th level Invulnerable Rager with Improved Stalwart and Greater Guarded Life. I have DR 20/- from various sources, I'm at 25 hit points and I get hit for 60 points of lethal damage.
First, I apply my DR to lethal, reducing that 60 points by 20 to a total of 40 points of damage that gets through. Then I take 25 points of damage, bringing me to 0 with 15 points of damage left over that would normally bring me to -15. That's when Greater Guarded Life kicks in, converting those extra 15 points of damage to non-lethal damage. Now here's the rub - the language used in Invulnerable Rager says 'this damage reduction', insinuating that ONLY this damage reduction is doubled, not the DR granted from other sources (though presumably the Rage Power Increased DR would apply as well). So 10 points of my DR come from Invulnerable Rager and those 10 points are doubled to 20, giving me DR 20 non-lethal which is more than enough to absorb that extra 15 and keep me at 0 where I am Disabled and still able to act.
Another point to be debated is whether or not the damage taken from making a standard action while disabled (at 0 hit points) can be converted to non-lethal and as such ignored.
Now in the interest of complete disclosure, I originally read Guarded Life/Greater Guarded Life as saying 'if the barbarian would be takened below 0 hit points', which if worded that way would work exactly as you have described above... and re-reading it now, while I see it as a nice way to stay alive, I'm not sure it is as useful as a means of continuing to fight on as if uninjured. It appears instead that it is a way to stay perpetually at 0 hit points and thus perpetually staggered but still able to act until you are healed.
This is my interpretation of how it would all work, but I'm open to being wrong and think it should probably be FAQ'd, if it hasn't already been.
I'm operating on what would work best for the game. Looking at the various ways of interpreting the combo, either Guarded Life sucks because it just keeps you from dying( As in the damage that would have taken you below 0 is converted to non-lethal and you're on the floor unconscious but not bleeding out.) or it's amazing because it more than doubles your DR when you're low on health.
Strictly speaking, the only time Guarded Life is a good Rage Power is if you're an invulnerable rager. If you're not, then it is just a mediocre ability that lets you be the first party member to go down, but not have to be resurrected later. What other class/feat/race has a monster amount of DR/lethal besides that archetype?
Even more strictly speaking, this line:
While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points, 1 hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage. If the barbarian is at negative hit points due to lethal damage, she immediately stabilizes.
clearly states that this conversion takes place after you've already taken damage and thus a strict reading of the rules says that your DR/lethal doesn't get to apply. The damage has already passed through your DR. It doesn't get to loop back around for a second pass now that it's a different type. Especially considering that it's not two different sets of DR. It's the same DR that is simply doubled for non-lethal damage.
Needs an FAQ for sure because after mulling it over all morning, I'm leaning towards Guarded Life being only as good as the other Rage Powers and generally being a trap. It would be more clear if they said "if the barbarian would take damage that reduced them to below 0..." or "if an opponent would deal damage greater than the barbarians current life total...", then we would have precedence to apply DR, but it simply looks like you already took the damage and thus it's already had your DR applied.
Edit: Lets look at another interpretation real quick. Say you're at 8hp. You're still raging and dangerous and somebody slams you for 20 lethal damage. Your 12th-level-appropriate Invulnerable Rager DR 8/- reduces that damage to 12. Then, with Guarded Life, 12 of that is converted to nonlethal. You take that nonlethal damage normally. This means you still have 8hp, but your 12 nonlethal damage exceeds that, so now you're unconscious. This means, that in 4 hours, you get up and walk away all by yourself since that's how long it takes to heal nonlethal damage. The power also states that if you take more damage than it can mitigate so that you actually drop below 0 hp, you automatically stabilize. So even though you won't wake up on your own, you aren't going to bleed to death. That seems pretty nifty as a rage power if your character is like that. And it doesn't seem broken.
why is that so terrible? it seems fair to me I dont understadn how people are saying I apply dr/18- 2 xWhile the initial concept might be off the end result is indeed correct.I am confused say I am using all my damage reduction from Stalwart I take I have dr 18/- I have 20 hp left. I take 50 damage from a longsword applied against my dr 18/-
that is 32 damage left I then start to "die" then 22 damage of that is converted to non lethal which applies against my DR/26 non lethal. then i in reality only take 10 damage and am only down to 10 HPs left. correct?
my HP math may be off but you get the idea.
I'm not saying it is. I'm the kind of guy who cares more about end result and less about how it's achieved. Whether you apply the DR 18/- first and then if the rest would bring you below 0 apply Guarded Life or add it all together. So long as the differences between lethal and nonlethal damage are understood and kept to their seperate pools I'm fine. Regardless if you convert to nonlethal first or apply lethal DR first I really don't care too much.
End result is this: DR 18/- plus 22 points of lethal damage converted into a nonlethal 22 damage vs DR 26/lethal should result in soaking up to 40 damage no problem.
The fact of the matter is simple. If you were hit by a flaming burst longsword for 16 damage and 3 fire damage both your DR 18/- and Fire Resistance 3 apply, just as if you were hit by a greataxe doing 22 nonlethal damage and 8 lethal damage both your DR 18/- and DR 26/lethal would apply. Sure it's messy, but thems the RAW. Take it or leave it.
EDIT: yea a better rewording should be considered.
maybe I will post int he rules thread asking for rules clarification.
I'm confused here.
"Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points..."
How in the world are you guys coming up with all of this DR business resulting in being at anything greater than -1 hit points?
Guarded life only does anything at all when reduced below 0 hit points. So take your damage, apply your DR, if that drops you below 0, then covert. It's only purpose is to keep you from death due to loss of raging Constitution.
Now I will, however, concede that I'm not exactly keen on how it works if you were already below 0 hit points prior to the attack, such as from using diehard.
I'm confused here.
"Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points..."
How in the world are you guys coming up with all of this DR business resulting in being at anything greater than -1 hit points?
Guarded life only does anything at all when reduced below 0 hit points. So take your damage, apply your DR, if that drops you below 0, then covert. It's only purpose is to keep you from death due to loss of raging Constitution.
Now I will, however, concede that I'm not exactly keen on how it works if you were already below 0 hit points prior to the attack, such as from using diehard.
It stops working after you're reduced to below 0. That's the drawback of Guarded life, it's awesome until someone gets through it, then it's all over very quickly.
Writer, you focused on the part that wasn't really my main point.
I was referring to this:
I interpret it as he would take no damage. This will keep him at 20 if he was to take 22 damage, since all 22 damage is converted to nonlethal. But it also means the DR 18/- can't be factored in twice. : / i didn't think people though such a thing is possible. 40 is insane enough.
If he is at 20 damage after the attack, how in Gorum's name did Guarded Life do anything? Guarded Life only does something if you are brought below 0 hit points, which in this case he wasn't.
Either he is brought below 0 hit points or he isn't. If he was brought below 0 hit points, how did he heal back up to 20 hit points? I don't see anything about healing lost hit points?
Because it's an "if" clause. Think of it like a Ring of Featherfall. If you would take falling damage, the ring activates and negates it. If you would be brought below 0 Guarded Life activates and attempts to negate it.
Except that is not how damage reduction works.
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su)
The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.
Format: DR 5/silver; Location: Defensive Abilities.
You ignore the damage, thus someone with DR 10/- that takes 20 points of damage ignores 10 of it, and only takes the remaining 10 points.
In this example, if this character only had 15 hit points, he would ignore 10 damage and take the other 10, thus leaving him at 5 hit points.
This same character never dropped below 0 hit points.
Also, you don't understand how Feather Fall works. It doesn't trigger off of falling damage. The ring activates upon falling 5 feet while the spell is cast as an immediate action.
Short of this, it seems as though I lack the ability to explain the way it works in a way that you would understand. I wish you the best of luck and hope that you have a DM that doesn't mind house rules.
Featherfall activates when you fall more than 5 feet. It doesn't activate "if you would take falling damage". I believe that's a critical difference. It's totally possible for the featherfall ring to run out while you're still a long way from the ground.
More importantly the Guarded Life rule does not say "If the barbarian would be reduced below 0". This is the crux. Either that's a typo that was always meant to give huge DR bonuses or it means what it means and it simply keeps you from taking lethal damage when you go unconscious.
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm spamming you. I'm taking advantage of a small window of time I have for being a huge dork right now.
Writer, making statements without any backing is otherwise known to be an opinion. This is "your" currently accepted interpretation.
Edit: Response to a deleted post.
Yea I know how the ring works. I was trying to make an analogy based on a common explination I hear in PFS.
Guarded Life (Ex)
Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points, 1 hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage. If the barbarian is at negative hit points due to lethal damage, she immediately stabilizes.
Alright, let's try using the SRD definition. WHen at 0 or below, any time you would take hitpoint damage convert your barbarian level in damage to nonlethal damage. For Greater Guarded Life, it's twice this. That means twice your level in damage is converted to nonlethal damage. And of course your DR is doubled vs lethal damage. Once converted, it is no longer apart of the same attack, because this is a rule that is not unless it says it is, much like a spell ends after you cast it unless it says it doesn't. This is crucial, as it allows your DR to apply to the remaining lethal damage.
Writer, making statements without any backing is otherwise known to be an opinion. This is "your" currently accepted interpretation.
Edit: Response to a deleted post.
Feel free to ask other people. There are a lot more people a lot more reputable than either of us who see it this way.
. . . Eh, not worth my time.
. . . Eh, not worth my time.
Thanksvforbthe advise I appreciate your help remember haters are going hate
We aren't hating. I think we've been super polite actually. Not that this needs to get any more dramatic, but it's clear that we have problems with the rules you're using to get monster bonuses to DR. I don't know if there is a better way to discuss how we both came to completely difference conclusions after reading the same rules.
It's not personal. I hope you don't see it that way.
No I was quoting a rap song the lyrical rhyme busting doesn't come across via text. I am kinda a smart ass
@ lobolusk
Damage Reduction (Ex)
At 7th level, a barbarian gains damage reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the barbarian takes each time she is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack.
Invulnerability (Ex)
At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and damage reduction.
Damage Reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Guarded Life (Ex)
Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian is reduced below 0 hit points, 1 hit point of lethal damage per barbarian level is converted to nonlethal damage. If the barbarian is at negative hit points due to lethal damage, she immediately stabilizes.So if I understand the argument, the claim is that the converted damage is subject to damage reduction of the invulnerable rager. This rager takes damage and ignores the appropriate amount from the normal DR/-.
Now after this, if the rager is then still reduced below, not at, but below 0 hit points, guarded life then converts an appropriate amount of the remaining lethal damage into nonlethal damage.
So the real question is, what is the source of the nonlethal damage? If the source is guarded life, then it is not a "normal attack" as stated...
Alright, according to the rules concerning Damage Reduction, it is applied after you take the damage from an attack. Therefore, let us assume Guarded Life takes effect before your damage reduction does. This means you convert twice your level to nonlethal damage and then apply damage reduction. I see the nonlethal damage as seperate from the actual attack. Others obviously see this differently.
You have two possibilities. If it doesn't work, you still get twice your barbarian level as damage reduction through guided life, still making it pretty appealing to take. If it does work, you get to negate additional damage equal to your normal damage reduction, which would be awesome. Either way, it shows that your initial investment in Guarded Life and Greater Guarded Life as well as Damage Reduction wasn't a waste.
Does this help?
The Damage Reduction rules disagree with you, I think.
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk's stunning, and injury-based disease.
Wouldn't this imply that Damage Reduction applies before the attack has any effect on you?
I stopped caring along time ago. I will run it by my DM but I may just pick a few different rage powers.
though I ...meh sleepy
What... what makes you think this has anything to do with you? Nobody here is trying to make you do anything. God, this is the internet, how would we even know? You could be a cat walking across a keyboard.
We're discussing the rules. Hashing out the different interpretations of a combo has value beyond you and your game.
I just found your dismissive attitude incredibly rude to people who are putting time and effort and thought into solving a problem.
What... what makes you think this has anything to do with you? Nobody here is trying to make you do anything. God, this is the internet, how would we even know? You could be a cat walking across a keyboard.
We're discussing the rules. Hashing out the different interpretations of a combo has value beyond you and your game.
I just found your dismissive attitude incredibly rude to people who are putting time and effort and thought into solving a problem. [/QUOTE
I assume that is directed at me
this is my thread about my character build so it has a bt to do with me. I am not rude nor dismissive I just find the arguing at this point well pointless. you are not "solving a problem" you are arguing on the internet about a fake ability in a fake game. I think you are wrong I agree with writer so further discussion is pointless so I will ask my dm a real person get his pov and decide to use it.I think you are upset because I said haters gonna hate that may of come across wrong let me say it in non street verse.
ahem " don't worry writer I think you are right but remember it is a free country and people will disagree with you from time to time nobody agrees on every thing"
and I am not a cat I am a human being who has heard both sides and made up my mind if you must argue about it please use the other thread I necroed. has I no longer need advise.
Nah. You're just a guy who will listen to whoever can justify the biggest bonuses for them.
See, now I'm hatin'. Before I was just telling you something you didn't want to hear. Albeit to be helpful. You just proved I was wasting my time.
Nah. You're just a guy who will listen to whoever can justify the biggest bonuses for them.
That is what she said