| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm starting this thread not so much to debate this issue, as its come up in a lot of other threads, but to see if either anyone has run across an official statement from one of the Paizo crew or if one of the Paizo crew would like to officially answer.
To clarify, I'm wondering if you need to have a weapon with the trip quality in order to use the trip action with a weapon, and if, when you don't have trip weapons, do you automatically trip unarmed?
Once again, I'm not really looking to debate this so much as I'm just wondering if anything official has been said at this point. Thanks all.
If you trip with a trip weapon you do not provoke.
That is all the trip property does for you:
From the PRD:
"Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped."
Tripping with improved trip also doesn't provoke, no matter what you use to do it.
Using a trip weapon with improved trip does nothing for you.
I'm starting this thread not so much to debate this issue, as its come up in a lot of other threads, but to see if either anyone has run across an official statement from one of the Paizo crew or if one of the Paizo crew would like to officially answer.
To clarify, I'm wondering if you need to have a weapon with the trip quality in order to use the trip action with a weapon, and if, when you don't have trip weapons, do you automatically trip unarmed?
Once again, I'm not really looking to debate this so much as I'm just wondering if anything official has been said at this point. Thanks all.
It came up before, but with no clear answer. Bringing it up again is not a bad idea though since Jason or James may not have seen it the first time.
Yes, I have read the relevant portions of the rules. I also know that some people have interpreted the phrase, "you can use a trip weapon to make a trip attempt" as meaning you cannot use a weapon that does not have the trip property to make a trip attempt.
I'm not saying one way or another how this should work, I'm saying I've seen this come up enough times and seen people read it both ways that I would like an official comment on it, if one is forthcoming. If its not, I know how I will rule it in my campaign, and I understand that not every rule can be officially commented on, so if it doesn't happen, I understand.
However, again, my point wasn't to gather opinions or how other people would rule, but if there has been an official ruling or clarification, or if someone would care to do so. Thanks for posting, however.
Yes, I have read the relevant portions of the rules. I also know that some people have interpreted the phrase, "you can use a trip weapon to make a trip attempt" as meaning you cannot use a weapon that does not have the trip property to make a trip attempt.
I'm not saying one way or another how this should work, I'm saying I've seen this come up enough times and seen people read it both ways that I would like an official comment on it, if one is forthcoming. If its not, I know how I will rule it in my campaign, and I understand that not every rule can be officially commented on, so if it doesn't happen, I understand.
However, again, my point wasn't to gather opinions or how other people would rule, but if there has been an official ruling or clarification, or if someone would care to do so. Thanks for posting, however.
Nothing official yet.
If you trip with a trip weapon you do not provoke.
Could you direct me where in PRPG it says this?
Obviously it worked this way in 3.5, but that wording doesn't appear in the analagous section in PRPG. (I'll be happy to be corrected if it IS in the rules somewhere.)...And add me to the horde demanding an official explanation. :-)
Normally I would assume no restrictions (on weapon to 'apply'/'deliver' attack roll) unless a restriction is given (i.e. 3.5 Trip specifically worked using Unarmed attacks unless otherwise enabled, i.e. thru Trip weapons). The wording in Trip weapon is REALLY bad and unclear if it is meant to be a restriction or just superfluous, not to mention it's not a very good place to indicate such a general restriction IF that is the intent (the basic Trip rules would be the correct place, i.e. like 3.5 Trip was described). If it's not a restriction, the line is just superfluous and should probably be excised to stop the confusion.
Given the changes from 3.5, I don't have any confidence in using 3.5 as precedent here (likewise for Trip weapons avoiding AoO's or not, which I don't see in PRPG).
If you trip with a trip weapon you do not provoke.Could you direct me where in PRPG it says this? Obviously it worked this way in 3.5, but that wording doesn't appear in the analagous section in PRPG. (I'll be happy to be corrected.)
...Add me to the horde demanding an official explanation.
Normally I would assume no restrictions (on weapon to 'apply' attack roll) unless a restriction is given (i.e. 3.5 Trip specifically worked using Unarmed attacks unless otherwise enabled, i.e. thru Trip weapons). The wording in Trip weapon is REALLY bad and unclear if it is meant to be a restriction, not to mention it's not a very good place to indicate such a general restriction (the basic Trip rules would be the correct place, i.e. like 3.5 Trip was described).
Given the changes from 3.5, I don't have any confidence in using 3.5 as precedent here (likewise for Trip weapons avoiding AoO's or not, which I don't see in PRPG).
He is not saying it actually says that. He is saying that is an interpretation.
Yeah, I have seen many opinions on this, and many really well reasoned both directions. That having been said, yeah, I was kind of hoping (and greatly appreciating, as I don't mean to be demanding) to see if we can get an official comment.
Using a trip weapon with improved trip does nothing for you.
I think it still gives a +2 bonus to CMB to trip, doesn't it?
I think it still gives a +2 bonus to CMB to trip, doesn't it?
Using a trip weapon with improved trip does nothing for you.
No it doesn't state that it gives a bonus to the trip attempt... however the bonus for being masterwork (or magical) would apply.
No it doesn't state that it gives a bonus to the trip attempt... however the bonus for being masterwork (or magical) would apply.I think it still gives a +2 bonus to CMB to trip, doesn't it?
Using a trip weapon with improved trip does nothing for you.
In the equipment section (weapons) in the decriptions like monk, reach, and the like I thought it gave you a +2 to the trip attempt. I'm at work right now and don't have the rule book in front of me. I could be wrong, maybe it's the improved feat I'm thinking of.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's the feat that gives the bonus now. (well only the feat, the bonus from magical or masterwork only get added with a weapon that is such just like any other CMB based maneuver)
If you fail badly, using a weapon also lets you not be tripped in return.
If you fail badly, using a weapon also lets you not be tripped in return.
Alright, I'm home and checked the book. I was wrong about a trip weapon giving a bonus. However, a trip weapon will allow you to drop the weapon instead of being tripped yourself, something the trip feats won't allow. So a trip weapon is more useful at lower levels but not completely useless at higher levels. Highly situational though.
It doesn't have anything to do with failing a trip attempt.
PF Core:
If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead.
How is that not failing a trip attempt?
PF Core:If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead.How is that not failing a trip attempt?
Your right, I miss-read your post
No problem. I'm pretty sure I've done that once or twice...or a hundred times.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As far as I've interpreted the rules, you can trip with ANY MELEE weapon, but doing so constitutes an AoO unless its specifically a Trip weapon or you have Improved Trip feat. You would also incur not being able to drop a weapon if you fail unless its a designed to do it.
Improved Trip (Combat)
You are skilled at sending your opponents to the ground.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to trip you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver.
Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
The way I see it, you can trip with a staff, a sword, a club. Within reason. I mean a rapier I can't really see, but yeah a falchion maybe. They aren't designed persay to be used that way, but its possible that you could have the strength (and luck) to hit someone in a knee cap or thigh or something to throw them off balance. Its just harder to do.
Just my 2c.
As far as I've interpreted the rules, you can trip with ANY MELEE weapon, but doing so constitutes an AoO unless its specifically a Trip weapon or you have Improved Trip feat. You would also incur not being able to drop a weapon if you fail unless its a designed to do it.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
The way I see it, you can trip with a staff, a sword, a club. Within reason. I mean a rapier I can't really see, but yeah a falchion maybe. They aren't designed persay to be used that way, but its possible that you could have the strength (and luck) to hit someone in a knee cap or thigh or something to throw them off balance. Its just harder to do.
Just my 2c.
Nothing in the description of the trip weapon hints at a free trip. The only advantage as written is that you get to drop the weapon if you fail really badly while trying.
As far as I've interpreted the rules, you can trip with ANY MELEE weapon, but doing so constitutes an AoO unless its specifically a Trip weapon or you have Improved Trip feat. You would also incur not being able to drop a weapon if you fail unless its a designed to do it.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
The way I see it, you can trip with a staff, a sword, a club. Within reason. I mean a rapier I can't really see, but yeah a falchion maybe. They aren't designed persay to be used that way, but its possible that you could have the strength (and luck) to hit someone in a knee cap or thigh or something to throw them off balance. Its just harder to do.
Just my 2c.
I think you only trip with a weapon if it is a trip weapon...otherwise, you just trip with your body/leg/whatever. Also, no free trip with the weapon but you can drop it, in case of a counter-trip.
Nothing offical. I'd love to see something offical too.
I think you only trip with a weapon if it is a trip weapon...otherwise, you just trip with your body/leg/whatever. Also, no free trip with the weapon but you can drop it, in case of a counter-trip.
I'm of the same opinion.
edit:
Nothing offical. I'd love to see something offical too.
On that too.
|
If you can only trip with a trip weapon, then you can't trip with a foot, and that's just silly. I'm on the side that says you can trip with anything, but if it's a trip weapon and you fail, you can just drop it to avoid getting tripped yourself. I don't see anything about avoiding the AO because of a trip weapon; I think you only get that with the feat.
I'll third the request for an official ruling on this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm confused about...the confusion. It seems pretty straight forward to me.
If you try to trip an opponent, you trigger an AoO. If the AoO hits, the amount of damage is added to the CMD of the person being tripped. If you beat the targets CMD, he/she/it is knocked prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone (Note there is nothing in the rules for trip about needing a weapon to perform it).
If you try to trip an opponent and you have Improved Trip, you do not incur an AoO. If you beat the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone.
If you have a weapon with the Trip special quality, then, if your attack fails by 10 or more, you may drop the weapon instead of being knocked prone.
I just don't see where all the confusion is coming from.
I'm confused about...the confusion. It seems pretty straight forward to me.
If you try to trip an opponent, you trigger an AoO. If the AoO hits, the amount of damage is added to the CMD of the person being tripped. If you beat the targets CMD, he/she/it is knocked prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone (Note there is nothing in the rules for trip about needing a weapon to perform it).
If you try to trip an opponent and you have Improved Trip, you do not incur an AoO. If you beat the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone.
If you have a weapon with the Trip special quality, then, if your attack fails by 10 or more, you may drop the weapon instead of being knocked prone.
I just don't see where all the confusion is coming from.
That is how I see it also. I am sure if ability was restricted to "trip" weapons it would say so explicitly.
Not confusion but implications.
If you use a trip weapon and it has an enhancement bonus, it applies to your roll vs CMD.
If you do not use a trip weapon but you have another magically enhanced weapon in your hands two things can happen:
1) you're using that other weapon to trip and get the bonus but mysteriously you cannot drop it to avoid being knocked prone.
Just silly IMO.
2) you do not use the non-trip weapon to actually trip but your body weight or whatever and thus you cannot apply the weapon's enhancement to the roll, making it less effective obviously.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To clarify what I'm hoping to have clarified, from what I have heard regarding alternative opinions on this matter, its not that you must have a trip weapon to perform a trip, its that, without a trip weapon, you use your normal CMB to attempt a trip, without any bonuses that you would get from a weapon.
Under this interpretation, trip would work this way:
Trip Without a Trip Weapon and Without Improved Trip
If you attempt to trip without Improved Trip and without a trip weapon, you roll your attack plus your CMB against CMD, and if you fail by 10 or more, you are prone, if you are successful, they are prone. Attempting to trip provokes an AoO and if successful, the damage is added to the CMD of the opponent.
Trip Without Improved Trip but With A Trip Weapon
If you attempt to trip with a trip weapon but without Improved Trip, you make a CMB roll, with any bonuses that would apply to the weapon since you are using a trip weapon (so if its a +2 weapon, you would get a +2 bonus, for example), and if you fail by 10 or more, you can drop your weapon to avoid going prone. If successful, your opponent is prone, and if the AoO you provoke is successful, you add the damage to the CMD of your opponent.
Trip With Improved Trip but Without A Trip Weapon
You can attempt to make a trip attack, using you CMB against the opponents CMD. There is no AoO, but if you fail by 10 or more, you fall prone. You get a +2 bonus on the CMB roll due to the feat.
Trip With Improved Trip and With A Trip Weapon
You can attempt to make a trip attack, and you do not provoke an AoO. You roll your CMB against your opponents CMD, and you can add any bonuses that the weapon has (for example, if the weapon is a +2 weapon, as an example), and if you fail by 10 or more, you can drop your weapon to not fall prone. You gain +2 to the CMB from the feat.
What I want to know is if the above is how this should work, or if weapons always factor into the situation. I have heard both interpretations, so I'm not so much wanting to rehash arguments about this, as to either get an official word, or have someone cite where an official word has been given.
|
I'm confused about...the confusion. It seems pretty straight forward to me.
If you try to trip an opponent, you trigger an AoO. If the AoO hits, the amount of damage is added to the CMD of the person being tripped. If you beat the targets CMD, he/she/it is knocked prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone (Note there is nothing in the rules for trip about needing a weapon to perform it).
If you try to trip an opponent and you have Improved Trip, you do not incur an AoO. If you beat the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone.
If you have a weapon with the Trip special quality, then, if your attack fails by 10 or more, you may drop the weapon instead of being knocked prone.
I just don't see where all the confusion is coming from.
Where does it say that anyone can trip someone without using a weapon unless you are a monk?
Where does it say that anyone can trip someone without using a weapon unless you are a monk?I'm confused about...the confusion. It seems pretty straight forward to me.
If you try to trip an opponent, you trigger an AoO. If the AoO hits, the amount of damage is added to the CMD of the person being tripped. If you beat the targets CMD, he/she/it is knocked prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone (Note there is nothing in the rules for trip about needing a weapon to perform it).
If you try to trip an opponent and you have Improved Trip, you do not incur an AoO. If you beat the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If you fail by 10 or more, you are knocked prone.
If you have a weapon with the Trip special quality, then, if your attack fails by 10 or more, you may drop the weapon instead of being knocked prone.
I just don't see where all the confusion is coming from.
There is no requirement to use a weapon to trip someone, and there is no requirement to be a monk.
Where does it say that anyone can trip someone without using a weapon unless you are a monk?
What has being a monk got to do with it? Anyone can use a combat maneuver. There's no restrictions saying that only monks can use them.
|
|
What has being a monk got to do with it? Anyone can use a combat maneuver. There's no restrictions saying that only monks can use them.
Where does it say that anyone can trip someone without using a weapon unless you are a monk?
Sure, and nowhere in this area does it say that tripping can be done WITHOUT a weapon.
from the PRD "TripYou can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped."
It only states that you can do a trip in place of a melee attack. Now under weapons "Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped." So I can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks......It doesn't say I can use a trip weapon instead of hands or another weapon.....
So where does it state that a trip is able to be done unarmed or that it can't be done with any weapon?
|
|
Now to be fair we could assume that "In place of a melee attack" could mean that you would use whatever weapon you have ready to attempt to trip someone, including unarmed strikes, but that would allow ANY weapon to be used to trip. But unless they are trip weapons or you have Imp. Trip you provoke and can suffer all the ills of failure.
I fully admit that I just want to see this elaborated upon, mainly because I'm probably making this more complicated than it needs to be. Forgive my lack of ability to sort through this, and as I said at the beginning of the post, I know what I'll rule in my games.
Sure, and nowhere in this area does it say that tripping can be done WITHOUT a weapon.
It doesn't say anywhere that you can cast a spell without a bloody chicken claw or a voodoo doll. That doesn't mean you need one. Don't you think that if a weapon was needed to perform a Trip maneuver, that they might have, oh I don't know, mentioned it? They do seem to be pretty smart guys, after all.
I'm pretty certain the "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks." text under the trip weapon property precludes you from tripping without a trip weapon. I maintain that anyone can use the trip maneuver, but not with a weapon without the trip property.
As far as I know, it worked that way in v3.5 as well (which also allowed you to trip while unarmed and with natural weapons).
I'm pretty certain the "You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks." text under the trip weapon property precludes you from tripping without a trip weapon. I maintain that anyone can use the trip maneuver, but not with a weapon without the trip property.
As far as I know, it worked that way in v3.5 as well (which also allowed you to trip while unarmed and with natural weapons).
3.5-TripYou can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip AttackMake an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Tripping with a Weapon
Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
Pathfinder-Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
Pathfinder does not have the some weapons restriction blatantly stated. It could be that the rules transferred and they never thought to clarify it, but as of now there is no restriction
Pathfinder does not have the some weapons restriction blatantly stated. It could be that the rules transferred and they never thought to clarify it, but as of now there is no restriction
"You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks."
If you can use any weapon to make trip attacks, then the above sentence has absolutely no reason for existing.
Pathfinder does not have the some weapons restriction blatantly stated. It could be that the rules transferred and they never thought to clarify it, but as of now there is no restriction"You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks."
If you can use any weapon to make trip attacks, then the above sentence has absolutely no reason for existing.
The weapons used for tripping had similar verbage in 3.5
3.5: from the SRD
Chain, Spiked
A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.
You can make trip attacks with the chain.
Flail, Dire
A dire flail is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a dire flail in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon— only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
When using a dire flail, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the opposed attack roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).
You can also use this weapon to make trip attacks.
As you can see the same sentence was there. They called out the benefit with the particular weapon, and specified that not all weapons could use it in 3.5
Pathfinder did not say in exact terms that tripping was only restricted to certain weapons. Normally I use 3.5 rules unless otherwise stated, but to remove the sentence that directly limited an ability would not make sense unless they also wish to remove the limites.
I'm not saying anyone has to agree, and again, I'm not advocating one side or another, but I'm kind of hoping that in light of the 3.5 version of the Trip action, maybe people can more easily see where some of the confusion might stem from.
|
|
I'm not saying anyone has to agree, and again, I'm not advocating one side or another, but I'm kind of hoping that in light of the 3.5 version of the Trip action, maybe people can more easily see where some of the confusion might stem from.
That is my stance also. I am not "for" or "against" any ruling, only acknowledging that there is grounds for a number of interpretations.
A Paizo ruling on the matter would be very nice to have, especially for PFSociety play.
In case anyone thinks nobody ever gets persuaded on the forums...
I started out thinking 'well of COURSE you can use any weapon to trip!'
Seeing some of the arguments, though... yeah, I'm thinking they just didn't completely transfer over all the verbiage from 3.5e, and that non-trip weapons cannot be used to trip.
Anyone can make a trip attempt in place of a melee attack through the use of a combat maneuver.
A melee attack can be unarmed, a greatsword, tiny dagger or unarmed it doesn't matter what you have in your hands. If you happen to be wielding a trip weapon then you can drop it instaed of proning out if you fail by 10+.
The improved trip feat just adds bonuses to the maneuver and doesn't provoke, but the feat is not mandatory.
The offical word is in the core rule book.
In case anyone thinks nobody ever gets persuaded on the forums...
I started out thinking 'well of COURSE you can use any weapon to trip!'
Seeing some of the arguments, though... yeah, I'm thinking they just didn't completely transfer over all the verbiage from 3.5e, and that non-trip weapons cannot be used to trip.
Nothing in the description for tripping in the CM section mentions needing a trip weapon to make a trip attempt.
|
|
If you trip with a trip weapon you do not provoke.
That is all the trip property does for you:
From the PRD:
"Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped."Tripping with improved trip also doesn't provoke, no matter what you use to do it.
Using a trip weapon with improved trip does nothing for you.
No-where in that description does it say that using a trip weapon negates the AoO so I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.
Nothing in the description for tripping in the CM section mentions needing a trip weapon to make a trip attempt.
Nothing in the description for tripping in the CM sections mentions being able to use a weapon to make a trip attempt.
Given the precedent of 3.5e and the specific mention of 'trip weapons may be used to trip,' I think the intent is clear.
That they mention 'these weapons may be used to trip' doesn't logically exclude all other weapons, but we're talking about a gamebook, not a legal document.
There's no point in saying 'these weapons may be used to trip' if ALL weapons can be used to trip. And, again, given the origins in 3.5, it becomes clear.
I mean, Bull Rush doesn't specifically say you can't use a weapon, does it? :)
|
|
So, the question is, if I'm wielding a +3 dagger, can I use it to trip my opponent, and if so, do I enjoy a +3 bonus.
Replace "trip" with "disarm". Does it seem weird now? Why not?
Why would one maneuver automatically be assumed to get the benefit of the weapon's enhancement bonuses to the CMB roll, but the other not?
If you could only trip with "Trip weapons", then the Trip Maneuver would almost never be used, since it wouldn't come anywhere near Disarm in terms of utility.