Otsego's page

I would say to go for your original choice - I prefer speed to strength, really, and while strength may be optimal for dishing out damage, at higher level you are going to be using more from dice than from bonuses still.

That said, I would recommend Vital Strike feat tree as it will offset your inability to use your flurry of blows with your movement.

I'm going to have to disagree with this advise. Strength is way wore important than dex. My lvl 5 monk has a damage bonus of +11 for single attacks and +9 for FoB. Even at lvl 20 2d10 averages to only 10 points of damage, I'm already doing more than that at a fraction of the lvl.

Str also helps determine CMB and CMD, which you will need if you wish to perform any manuovers.

Wisdom is actually more important than dex also, it adds to AC and CMD, as well as your stunning fist DC.

I'm not saying completely disregard dex, but 12 or maybe 14 should be good enough. You still want a reflex save bonus.

Manacles have a set DC for Escape Artists checks. I wouldn't think the material would make a difference for Escaping them, but would make a difference for breaking them, modifying the hit points and hardness as per the material.

That's exactly why I want to make them from a stronger material. The lowest DC to get out of the manacles is by attempting to break free via a str check.

After a successful grapple check, two actually, can a character use manacles instead of ropes to "tie up" his opponent?

If we can, are the mechanics any different?

Would it be easier or harder to use manacles? Seems to me manacles would be like using a crude version of handcuffs and might be easier to apply.

Can the manacles be made of a better quality material to increase the DC to break free? Like adamantine or maybe even mithiral?

Any thoughts?

Thanks to your input, I have an concrete answer for all of this, I was more or less going along your line of thinking...but one question remains, does a Large Greataxe (3d6 damage) increase to 4d6 when the whole character is "Enlarged"?, reading the old 3.5 DMG it seems so.

I believe the next increment would be 3d8 not 4d6 judging from the weapons damage chart in the equipment section.

The game implodes.

There aren't any rules to handle what happens under these circumstances.

How 'bout this.

If the grappler isn't grabbing the wings and hindering flight the first round, what if he attemps to pin the vrock in the second round by making a successful grapple check to pin one or both wings down. That would end the flight.

How much does this character weigh? Would the vrock be able to carry him off or be stuck there furiously flapping its wings?

You could have an otherwise impenetrable set of doors with 2(or however many you wish) depressions either on the door or along side. Each with either a symbol or dwarven writing above them giving a clue as to the 'key' each depression needs. One could be a certain sized, very heavy, stone found only at the bottom of a body of water. Or a weapon shaped depression that needs a particular weapon found in the smith with the appropriate rune inscribed on it.

They could be found in the mountain or perhaps outside. Depending on how much time you'd like to spend on one puzzle, they could be placed in obscure places. Like the weapon might be with a dwarven smith in a nearby town. The party would have to talk him into giving the weapon up.

And a holy symbol of whatever god these dwarves prayed to. Lots of things could be 'keys' for this.

Can you give an example of how this would come up?

One reason it shouldn't stack is that SR is very similar to AC.

And you usually stack bonuses/modifiers. SR isn't a bonus, it's a base stat. Would an item that gives you an 18 Str give you Str 36 if you already had Str 18? Do 2 suits of plate armor stack if you put one over the other?

I could come up with several, here's one.

A monk gets SR as a class ability at 13 then someone casts the spell resistance spell on said monk, all the while wearing a mantle of spell resistance. 3 different sources, what would his SR be? Would only the highest SR be active?

Oh, AC from different sources do stack.

No, they do not. However, in later 3.5 books, there are a few items and feats that allowed you to add to existing SR. Usually very rare/restrictive/costly, though.

Any idea where it would state that? Not that I don't trust you, I just like to see stuff in writing. 8^)

Is having a spell resistance of 23 at level 13 low? Seems low to me. The caster would have to roll a 7 or higher to overcome the SR right?

Also, would SR from different sources stack?

And yeah, trying to grapple something with good physical stats and/or a good Base Attack Bonus is a risky proposition, even with Improved and Greater Grapple feats. But you just have to use your head. Don't try to grapple things like Ogres or raging Barbarians. Grapple wizards and commoners and weak looking clerics and smaller creatures.

and gnomes and cute furry bunnys and grasshoppers and butterflies and...

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Personally I've pretty much given up on grappling. If it only really works reliably on the weak and the small, I'm out. I'd rather just flurry them, maybe disarm the wizard and beat him with it. That would be fun.

@ Kae Yoss

Since Monks don't use shields, a monk has little reason not to select a two handed weapon, like a greatsword. Until he reaches 16th level, the sword outdamages the fist.

Unless the monk is using amulet of mighty fists and wearing a monk's robe. Then I think unarmed strikes out-damage the current monk's weapon damage much earlier, like around 10 or 11.

Spend one feat and get the temple sword, enchant it, use power attack and save up for those other previously mentioned items(among others of course) for 7 or so levels.

So in other words, get a + whatever strength bow but skip the special quality enchantments like flaming or shock, since the AA can imbue the arrows at will. Right?

How about a ramp or incline of some sort? Even though they don't have stair steps they are, or can be, the same grade as a flight of stairs. Would they also use the same mechanic? No running up ramps either? And to which degree do we take this? I realize I'm nit-picking here but I kind of need to know. Thanks

Anyone have an idea how long it would take to magically burn through the thorns? Or what constitutes magic fire?

Here's why I ask. What if, enemies are caught in the wall and are trying to escape. We could facilitate that by magically burning the thorns, and the creatures inside, since it takes so long to get through.

This of course only works if it takes more than a few rounds for the thorns to burn.

Not only would they be burning but they would also be taking thorn damage as they try to escape the enferno. Like wall of throns and then wall of fire right on top of that.

just a thought.

I can't seem to find how movement works for stairs, ramps and ladders.

Ladders I suppose is a climb check with a low DC.

The other two probably have something to do with grade or something.

Any info would be great, thanks

The Black Horde wrote:

Does disarm work like trip then?

Do you have to have a weapon with disarm to use a weapon to disarm someone like trip is?

No. You can disarm with any weapon (or none at all). "Disarm" weapons grant a bonus to the disarm attempt.

Attempting to disarm while "unarmed" though will give you a -4 bonus to your CMB. So it's better to have a weapon, it's even better to have a weapon that has the disarm quality, or be a monk and attempt it unarmed.

There are no iterative attacks for flurry. The number of attacks for flurry are based solely on your number of monk levels.

Gotta go, kids are up.

Otsego wrote:

So what your saying is, fighter 4 monk 4 would have a combined BAB of +7 for regular attacks and +6/+6 for flurry right?

So where did the 3rd attack come from?

+6 Bab? when you get an extra attack anyhow?

35 minutes ago you posted this was correct.

Flurry would be 2 attacks at +8(combined BAB remember?), -2 for TWF for each primary attack, leaving +6/+6. There is no 3rd attack when flurrying at monk level 4.

So what your saying is, fighter 4 monk 4 would have a combined BAB of +7 for regular attacks and +6/+6 for flurry right?

So where did the 3rd attack come from?

Normally I try not to get flustered on these boards, but really, did you read the post?

Per Paizo, from an exact quote from their text your BAB is now equal to the value present in 3-10 from the Core Rulebook PLUS "your base attack bonus from other classes." It doesn't matter if the OP is converting or not; Paizo's specific example is given in terms of conversion because the flurry BAB for monks changed.

Frankly, your value of +2/+2 (or even +4/+4) is flat out wrong. Monks Flurry improves with level, even if you're a level 1 Monk, Level 19 fighter, you're not going to be stuck with a -1/-1.

I must have an un-errated book because mine does not say that, I've read it 5 times. What page are you looking at? I'm on 57 under Flurry of Blows(Ex). Qoute "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifiing..."

From the above math the attacks would be as follows:

Base Attack Bonus for a Monk with Flurry = Monk Level
Add Fighter Level

4 + 4 = 8

Subtract out two-weapon penalty

8 - 2 = 6

A score of +6 means your basic bonus is +6/+1.

You get a second attack at your highest BAB per Flurry turning it into +6/+6/+1.

No, they are explaning how they got the numbers they did. There is no math left for us to do.

The monk flurries as if using 2 weapon feat, meaning a -2 penalty to all primary attacks, which is BAB of +1 (monk level) -2 (TWF)= -1/-1 for a first level monk.

That's nice, however, the OP didn't say he was converting a character from another system.

I wish I could find that post, because I was right the first time it would be +2/+2. The reason they say we use the monk's level for FoB is that is the way they calculated it and came up with +2/+2.

Now where in the core rule book under Flurry of Blows does it state you can add BABs from different classes.

Otsego wrote:

I can't disagree more. While the monk's BAB may be equal to their level for the purposes of flurry (minus the 2-weapon fighting penalty), that bonus will still stack with other BABs. I personally believe the basic rules of BAB calculation are the same regardless of class and monk's flurry is not treated any differently than any other BAB stacking. If you didn't do this, you're looking at that level 5 monk/level 10 monk-based PrC without flurry as only having attacks at +3/+3.

In this instance the bonuses would be as follows:

+6 (Initial blow at +2 Monk, +4 Fighter)
+6 (Additional flurry of blows attack at +2 Monk, +4 Fighter)
+1 (Second iterative attack for having a BAB of +6).

Ah your right, it would be +4/+4 for FoB.

But no, don't add BABs for FoB. If you did it would be +8/+8 to flurry.
That's exactly why it's a terrible idea to take levels of monk and not stick with it.

I can't find it but there are at least two threads here with this exact discussion. One of which I was involved with and was corrected because I thought something similar.

An 8th level fighter has a +8/+3 regular attack. So what your saying is multiclassing into an inferior melee class should boost the fighters output somehow?

Monk 4/ fighter 4 has a FoB attack bonus of +4/+4.

The more I think aout it, the more I'm wondering if cleric is the way to go with this guy. Since undead are no longer immune to sneak attack damage, I'm thinking rogue might be a better way to go flavorwise. Besides, our group already has a cleric and I do't want to step on toes.

I bet there's room for two clerics. What type does the other play? Having a dedicated healer/group buffer and a battle type cleric in one group would be cool.

And it may be completely plausible for your character to seek out another like minded undead killer, like the other cleric, to adventure with.

Two clerics in one party, ouchy for the undead.

This is mainly for Attacks in the Flurry, If I have 4 levels of fighter, 4 levels of monk, are my flurry of attacks

+6/+6 or
+6/+6/+1/+1

Mainly, do I get to follow the monks flkurry progression with BAB

Neither.

It would be +2/+2, with out any other bonuses like strength.
Fighters can't flurry so their lvls don't count toward FoB.

Your regular attack would be at +6 because you can add BABs together, FoB attack bonuses don't combine with regular BAB.

I wanted to give her fire immunity because I figure it will surprise those enemies who retaliate with fire after she hurls ice spells everywhere. I'm actually not too concerned with defenses against ice as (1) she already gets it from her class, (2) it isn't as common as fire, and (3) she is somewhat of a villainous character and I like the potential prospect of her own powers somehow getting turned against her.

Is this a homebrew game or in the Society?

If it's at home you could houserule that she is immune to fire and ice and vulnerable to two other energy types, like shock and acid for example. Or maybe even holy and lawful or something along those lines.

Edit...
I just looked it up in the rule book. Page 562 states if you are immune to fire then you are vulnerable to cold and vice versa.

I think finding a way to become resistant will be the only way to get protection from both fire and cold.

Protection from energy looks like the best bet so far. Too bad it doesn't stack with resist energy.

It's just too bad it has the trip quality and not something more useful to a monk like disarm. While monks can qualify for the greater trip feat, its's cost to the rest of the monk build is huge.

I'm not saying the trip isn't useful because it is, I would like to see disarm instead.

At what level do you think it would be better to use unarmed attacks instead of the temple sword? I'm guessing 8th level, or 12th if the sword has the flaming, shock, etc. weapon enchantment.

Would the ability to obtain an enchanted amulet of mighty fists play a factor in when to make the switch? Kind of swapping one for the other?

Otsego wrote:

Majuba wrote:

I'm not sure where you added things up to 3000 or 28000.

AoMF +1 = 5,000, upgraded to +2 = 15,000, holy quality = 8,000. all added together is 28,000.

I see now that I didn't use the right mechanic to create the item so it doesn't matter now anyway.

But I still don't fully understand. It was stated by Joshua that I first purchase it for 5,000. Ok got it. Second I would upgrade it to +2 for 15,000 but instead of having a +2 AoMF I could get a holy AoMF. If done that way I would be spending 15,000 for an 8,000 upgrade, nearly double! Then I have to up grade it again to get the +1 and then +2 for an additional 20,000? Buying like this would make it a 40,000 gp purchase, 12,000 more than the way I thought it happened!

Josh is correct, having a Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists or a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists both cost the same (20,000gp). You're misreading the section: Holy quality isn't 8000 gold, it's a +2 Price Modifier. For the AoMF, a +2 Price is 20,000gp, as it clearly states in the Wondrous Items section. You're getting the 8000 gold from the weapons section, in which a +2 total Price mod would be 8000, but you would still need a +1 Enchantment on weapons, making a Holy weapon a minimum of 18,000gp. AoMF price mods work as specified (like I just said) in the Wondrous Items section: +1 = 5000, +2 = 20,000....

Here's a menu for you:

• +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists = 5000gp: +1 attack, damage
  
• +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists = 20,000gp: +2 attack, damage
  
• Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists = 20,000gp: Holy enhancement
  
• +1 Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists = 45,000gp: +1 attack,damage, and Holy enhancement
  
• +2 Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists = 80,000gp: +2 attack,damage, and Holy enhancement
  

Unless my calcs were incorrect, that should end the discussion :D

Alright everyone, like the man said, end of discussion.

Thanks for setting me straight everybody. I appreciate it.

I'm not sure where you added things up to 3000 or 28000.

AoMF +1 = 5,000, upgraded to +2 = 15,000, holy quality = 8,000. all added together is 28,000.

I see now that I didn't use the right mechanic to create the item so it doesn't matter now anyway.

But I still don't fully understand. It was stated by Joshua that I first purchase it for 5,000. Ok got it. Second I would upgrade it to +2 for 15,000 but instead of having a +2 AoMF I could get a holy AoMF. If done that way I would be spending 15,000 for an 8,000 upgrade, nearly double! Then I have to up grade it again to get the +1 and then +2 for an additional 20,000? Buying like this would make it a 40,000 gp purchase, 12,000 more than the way I thought it happened!

Keep in mind that the Amulet of Mighty Fists is different from weapons. With a weapon, you have to have at least a +1 to then add weapon qualities. The AoMF specifically says you don't need at least a +1. Keep in mind, though, that the holy weapon quality is +2. So, at minimum, you'd need to buy a +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists in order to have the holy weapon quality on it.

So I have to buy a AoMF at +1, later I can upgrade it to a +2 and then after that I can add the holy quality. All for the low low price of 28,000 gp, ouch.

OK, thanks for the info.

hogarth wrote:

This is too late for you, but if I were playing a monk I would probably take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Temple Sword) at level 3, and use a temple sword until I could afford a really bad-ass Amulet of Mighty Fists.

I don't think you need a feat to wield that sword w/out penalty, its a monk weapon in the decription.

please disregard the above statement I made. =^/

Too late to edit...

So is it ethical and legal to purchase the amulet in this fashion?

This is too late for you, but if I were playing a monk I would probably take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Temple Sword) at level 3, and use a temple sword until I could afford a really bad-ass Amulet of Mighty Fists.

I don't think you need a feat to wield that sword w/out penalty, its a monk weapon in the decription.

I play a monk 3 in the PFS and I may need to purchase the AMF if I can't talk my DM into house ruleing some kind of wraps for my feet and hands that can be enchanted.

My intent is to end up with a holy amulet +1 as soon as I can. In PFS though I have to wait until I have enough prestige to make the purchase. So I was thinking of buying the amulet without the +1 for 3,000 so I can have it sooner, enchanting to +1 and holy when funds allow.

If I wait to purchase a +1 amulet (5,000) I will have to play 9 more scenarios (3 levels), just a plain amulet I can buy after just 4 more scenarios. Then I will have accumulated enough points to buy both a +1 and the holy property seperately.

Is this making any sense, is my thinking flawed?

The other thing is if I can only afford one or the other enchantment which would be better for 2 or 3 scenarios, the holy property or a +1 enchantment? 2D6 vs. +1 to attack and damage. I'm leaning towards holy since most fights are against evil doers.

Thoughts, ideas or design changes?

Not for Grapple, Bull Rush, or Overrun (you are not using a weapon to make such moves). Moreover, you have to specifically take Weapon Focus (Grapple) to gain a bonus on Grapple checks on top of that granted by Imp. Grapple or Greater Grapple.
...

Taking weapon focus(grapple) seems like a waste of a feat for just a +1 bonus to CMB to grapple. Except for fighters and maybe monks, feats are hard to come by, of course these two classes would most likely be the only candidates for WF(grapple) anyway, so meh. I play a monk and I don't think I'd take it.

Warp wood and wood shape on wood golems, metal to wood for iron golems, and flesh to stone for flesh golem.

Ah. I figured there was a reason, thanks

In Charender's spoiler it states that there is a 30% chance that a shape simply doesn't work. Have the GM roll the percentile die for a save. Too simple?

This same problem can happen to nearly the whole golem family. Flesh to stone, stone to mud, among others.

Dragonborn3 wrote:

I'd say wait until your unarmed strikes are considered magic, then get someone to inscribe runes and tattoos for the same magical effects one could put on a weapon. I do not suggest getting the throwing weapon special ability.

But this is also a question to ask your DM.

'Throwing hands' would totally rock, but I thing returning is mandatory...

Anyway, why can't you enchant the hands? The wording in regards to what your hands, as a monk, are acts like you can. Is there something else that says no that I don't see?

I don't think enchanting just the hands is enough. Monks can use their whole body as a weapon (elbows, knees, shins, etc.), therefore the body itself needs the enchantment. Semantics really, I guess.

Maveric28 wrote:

Everyone loves the Fighter, and no love for the Monk? Wow, that's actually surprising... true, the average fighter dishes out more damage than the average monk does per strike, but the Monk has a lot more going for him than you might think. A PF Monk now uses his full Monk level as his BAB whenever he uses flurry of blows or any combat maneuvers... this usually means that he does just fine with keeping up with the fighter's to-hit power. True, fighter gets weapon mastery, but monk is very good at taking away those weapons (Improved Disarm is a bonus feat, and he uses his class level to his combat maneuvers, not his usual 2/3 BAB). Plus, as mentioned, said Monk can burn a ki point each round for some extra perks, including an extra attack made using his LEVEL instead of his BAB in a flurry attack sequence... make at least one of those attacks a Stunning Fist when facing off against his Fighter opponent, and your Fighter will be stunned, sucking wind instead of attacking on his next turn... oh yes, and folks with the stunned condition automatically drop whatever they were holding, so he effectively just disarmed himself.

So he can occasionally pretend he has a full BAB (you know, like the Fighter) in specific circumstances and that makes him a comparable choice..?

Wow. Did you only read the parts you wanted to read?

Love all the guides, good stuff.

I was writing up one of my very own switch hitter types the other day, based on what Mr. Treantmonk has writen, and wondered whether or not a fighter with the same concept would work better?

Would the overall character be better or worse (combatively) than a ranger switch hitter? Granted I would'nt get things like track, a pet or favored enemy/terrain etc. but I wonder if a similar fighter build would out way those loses.

I'm at work so I can't look anything up right now.

Thoughts anyone?

does anyone else feel the need to create 'deadliest warrior' stlye threads about a bunch of class pairs, where in this case (cleric vs wizard) we compare some of the marque spells of each class against eachother and then pit them head to head in a series of pbp battles?

Then next week we move on to the barbarian vs the fighter, rogue vs monk, ranger vs paladin erc.

Then we can finish off the season with an old vs new, fighter, clericl wizard, rogue vs cavalier, summoner, oracle, inquisitor in a duel to the death.

And after we tire of one on one combat we could match pairs to duke it out. Two classes acting as a team vs. another 2 member team.

Would it be safe to assume that the higher the level you are the longer the fights take? Generally speaking I mean.

I've only really been low levels so far but I'm thinking the bigger badder bad guys in the higher levels will take longer to kill or dispatch.

So far, at lvl 2, if it goes longer than 2 rounds it usually means somebody will wind up dead.

And adding a str rating cost 100gp per str rating added, so you might wanna take that into consideration.

I did. It'll be 900gp for a +5 Str bow.

My str will be 20 before I aquire one so no problem with negative bonuses.

Thanks for the clarification

Yes you can. They are called composite bows. The way that I mark a composite bow's rating is to put the strength modifier in brackets. So a +1 composite longbow with a strength rating of +5 would look like this on my character sheet (using obvious short-hand):

+1 comp LB [+5]

Assuming you have the requisite strength, this bow would be a +1 to hit and 1d8+6 damage (assuming medium size longbow).

I couldn't find anywhere in the core rule book that I couldn't do this, I was just hoping I wasn't over looking some rule or another.

Sweet, I can't believe it's so cheap to get that much extra damage. I'm talking about the composite portion not the enchantment. 900 gp for 1D8+5 per shot is pretty nice. Then start stacking enchantments! Woo Hoo!

Can I have a +5 strength bow that is masterworked and upgrade it later to a +1 magical strength bow +5? Or is it one or the other, strength or magical and can't have both?

If I can how do I write it down? +1,+5 strength bow?

Humans are the most common NPC in any game that does not go out of its way to make it otherwise. You will always get a benefit out of your favored enemy either in combat or social encounters. It is the most rational choice for a first favored enemy as the study of man has whole schools devoted to it. As you progress you can choose other races that appear as the antagonists, and let humans remain a +2 that you can always fall back on.

That's kind of what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation!

That will fit with the backstory of my character as well. An abandonded half-elf infant raised and trained by humans would know their weaknessess and strengths just from being around them so much.

Thanks again

I've looked for some info on this subject (including Treantmonk's guide) but couldn't find what I was looking for.

What do you think would be the best favored enemy to take if you only get one choice in the PF society world?

I was thinking either humans or undead, since that's pretty much all we've fought against so far.

Any thoughts, pearls of wisdom or advice?

Otsego wrote:

Then what's the purpose of them mentining in the section under FoB 'for the purposes of these attacks, the monk's BAB is equal to his monk level'?

The monk's BAB for 2nd level is +1, and +0/+0 for FoB. When and why would we apply a BAB that is equal to his levels of monk? Which is +2 btw.

Because it tells you HOW they arrived at the numbers in the FoB section of the chart. They used the BAB of the monk level, and already factored in the -2. So for level 2, for FoB you ARE using a "BAB" of +2, because with the -2 penalty in you get your +0/+0 that you just mentioned.

Aah. Thank you for that explaination. Makes sense now.

BAB is already taken into account in the FoB attacks column. If you 're pure class you just have to add your bonuses(Str, magic, etc) to the values there.

20th level monk's attacks are at +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3, the same as a fighter's with the complete two weapon fighting feat chain.

Then what's the purpose of them mentining in the section under FoB 'for the purposes of these attacks, the monk's BAB is equal to his monk level'?

The monk's BAB for 2nd level is +1, and +0/+0 for FoB. When and why would we apply a BAB that is equal to his levels of monk? Which is +2 btw.

There's a similar thread about this going around and around but they are talking about multiclassing. What I'm wondering is what would my level 2 monk's attack bonus be while using flurry of blows with a +3 str bonus?

Right now I think it's +5/+5, +0/+0 for FoB, +2/+2 for BAB (which is his current monk level), and +3/+3 for the Str bonus.

This number seems right when compared to other melee types, the same level fighter with the same Str bonus would also be at +5.

Why I think this might not be right is because once the monk gets to high levels his attack bonus seems to go through the roof using the same formula. The bonuses scale much faster than the fighters.

A level 20 monk would have an attack bonus something like +33/+33/+28/+23/+18/+13/+8. And that's without any Str or any other bonuses. Seems high.

A level 20 fighter is +20/+15/+10/+5, before any other bonuses.

Any thoughts? How badly am I not understanding the rules?