For some reason, I was thinking of Monte Cook (who WAS a pathfinder game designer) when he said Skip Williams (who ISN'T a Pathfinder game designer).
I withdraw my previous statement.
And here we can see the specifically clear wording in 3.5 was removed, so one could probably assume there IS an intended change in functionality, since otherwise Jason could have simply cut and pasted the OGL SRD wording. Of course, he COULD have intended to work exactly like 3.5, but that intent wasn't conveyed by the words he chose.
Indeed. I think in some cases they tried to "improve" the wording in some places (by shortening it, for instance), but just succeeded in muddling it.
For instance:
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
The first one is very clear and narrowly defined, but the second one allows for strange interpretations (like a dwarven child running around with an elephant on her back). Sigh.
Definitely.
And incidentally, I think Razz's scenario that Jason AT ONE POINT changed the functionality,
and later decided not to (but didn't change the wording back completely) is EXTREMELY plausible.
The wording DOES need to be fixed though, and it'd be nice to get both confirmation that it will be, and a synopsis of how it's supposed to work.
~bump~
For the record, the way Skip Williams says it works is different from the way I think it should work. I'd think that using a trip weapon wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity, but whatevs.
And I was referring explicitly to Pathfinder when I asked, so.. yeah.
Kindly and politely, I'd still love to see a direct clarification from Paizo. No disrespect to Skip or 'Rixx or those who agree with their interpretation, but this has been a contentious issue for a long time, with good rock solid arguments on both sides.
I'd like to see it buried once and for all, preferrably by Paizo when they have the time.
Is it me or is this going to be a "Bump"y ride?
Here's my 2 cents...
According to the actual page for the trip maneuver, it is never described -what- your character uses to make the trip attempt, provided it is a melee attack. It could be your foot, a stick, a banana, or some exotic weapon you picked up off the ground.
Weapon bonuses do not figure into trip attempts. Whether I "use" a +5 holy avenger or a stick of butter to make a trip attempt, the cmb is still BAB + Str Modifier + Special Size Modifier.
Weapon proficiency doesn't figure into trip attempts either. The only thing that matters to figuring attacks of opportunity is whether or not you have the improved trip feat. This is also thanks to the trip maneuver's vagueness. At no point does it ask if you are proficient in the weapon you are using (because, again, it never specifies if you are using one or not!)
Trip weapons are special in that they are the only weapons that specify that they can be used for trip attacks, and offer bonuses for doing so. There is nothing stopping you from using other weapons, but it hardly matters-you get nothing and suffer nothing from doing so.
Edit: had to make a couple changes. There are benefits to tripping with non tripping weapons, like a Glaive or a Lance. Reach. These weapons are still melee weapons, so can be used to trip.
So ultimately what makes a weapon a good tripping weapon is it's reach, not necessarily whether or not it has the trip ability, though that may help against high CMD opponents.
But that's just my opinion, so ignore it if you like.
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It's not about agreeing with a poster's version or thoughts or not. It's about getting an official ruling for official Pathfinder Society and regular play. A rule that can be interpreted in 2 or more manners that make a huge difference in the ability could be a problem in a the Society game where you may have different DMs running the show with different ideas on the rules.
Bump
Weapon bonuses do not figure into trip attempts. Whether I "use" a +5 holy avenger or a stick of butter to make a trip attempt, the cmb is still BAB + Str Modifier + Special Size Modifier.
That's not what the prd says.
One problem a katana or axe used to trip becomes more like a "called shot" which would actually "hamstring" someone or to cut the achelles tendon....
Uh... no? Not by neccessity. That'd be an attack with them. Trip attempts just involve forcing a character to the prone position. There are a bunch of ways to do that with any arbitrary weapon that don't involve doing any damage at all. The easiest is thrusting it between the legs as someone is moving rapidly and not watching their feet, which can be done with any weapon with a significant reach (not a Reach Weapon, just not a dagger or sap).
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I failed my trip attempt any chance I cut anything off my opponent....
In the example of the katana it makes more sense to attempt the trip attempt with the scabbard than with the blade (especially if there is a chance you may have to let go of something all of a sudden.
I think the PF guys were trying to be deliberate in this process.
you left out the seting a whip for a charge,
I prefer the wet noodle it does triple damage when set for a charge and also has bonuses to trip an opponent.
So you couldn't use the return swing with the back of a Katana to trip someone? It's curved much like a scythe blade and yet the sharp blade of the scythe can be used to trip with without causing any cutting damage somehow....weird.
And BUMP!!!
trip is weird like that.
I don't recall the samurai using trip alot, unless you count severing the lower limb as a trip attempt.
It's probably the senility kicking in, since the last samurai died over a century ago.
Weapon bonuses do not figure into trip attempts. Whether I "use" a +5 holy avenger or a stick of butter to make a trip attempt, the cmb is still BAB + Str Modifier + Special Size Modifier.That's not what the prd says.
** spoiler omitted **
Allright. good to know.
bump
Bumpity bump.
In my wife's iaijutsu training, some of it is involved in draw techniques, with one hand on the saya, and the other on the katana, and using the tsuka (handle) to catch a joint (wrist or elbow) to bring the opponent to the ground. Likewise, a single edge knife like a k-bar can also be used to apply a lock and bring an opponent to ground. Typically, it is more effective to jam the knife in your opponent's collar bone, and bring your opponent down that way, but some of these things are opportunity techniques. An axe with a fixed, unsharpened edge, like a tomahawk, can be readily used for hooking techniques.
But this is a friendly local bump.
Is it just me or has this thread not been bumped in, like, ages?
Well, it's me.. So Bump!!
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So I haven't read the entire thread. I started at the beginning then read the first page then noticed "holy crap there's almost 300 comments, I ain't reading that entire thing, let me cut to the end to see how this was resolved" only to find that... still nothing??
Almost 300 comments and no official response? This thread was started almost two months ago and no response?
Ok, if someone responded between page 1 and my comment I apologize because I'm jumping to the conclusion that since people are still bumping this there's been no response.
You can't tell me no one has seen this thread in 2 months. What is going on?
My guess... we've fallen victim to the office betting pool of death.
oh yeah
bump
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So I haven't read the entire thread. I started at the beginning then read the first page then noticed "holy crap there's almost 300 comments, I ain't reading that entire thing, let me cut to the end to see how this was resolved" only to find that... still nothing??
Almost 300 comments and no official response? This thread was started almost two months ago and no response?
Ok, if someone responded between page 1 and my comment I apologize because I'm jumping to the conclusion that since people are still bumping this there's been no response.
You can't tell me no one has seen this thread in 2 months. What is going on?
Yeah, exactly. No official comment. It's f&%*ing ridiculous.
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Yeah, exactly. No official comment. It's f*&*ing ridiculous.So I haven't read the entire thread. I started at the beginning then read the first page then noticed "holy crap there's almost 300 comments, I ain't reading that entire thing, let me cut to the end to see how this was resolved" only to find that... still nothing??
Almost 300 comments and no official response? This thread was started almost two months ago and no response?
Ok, if someone responded between page 1 and my comment I apologize because I'm jumping to the conclusion that since people are still bumping this there's been no response.
You can't tell me no one has seen this thread in 2 months. What is going on?
I will admit that even a "We're aware of the issue and talking about how to resolve it." would probably shut us up, so the fact that they seem to be intentionally ignoring it that they can't even say that does seem just a wee bit frustrating. However in their defense, they also have the RPG superstar, and the APG playtest, and they're actually also writing a bunch of other stuff. So I don't know what to think.
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I will admit that even a "We're aware of the issue and talking about how to resolve it." would probably shut us up, so the fact that they seem to be intentionally ignoring it that they can't even say that does seem just a wee bit frustrating. However in their defense, they also have the RPG superstar, and the APG playtest, and they're actually also writing a bunch of other stuff. So I don't know what to think.Yeah, exactly. No official comment. It's f*&*ing ridiculous.So I haven't read the entire thread. I started at the beginning then read the first page then noticed "holy crap there's almost 300 comments, I ain't reading that entire thing, let me cut to the end to see how this was resolved" only to find that... still nothing??
Almost 300 comments and no official response? This thread was started almost two months ago and no response?
Ok, if someone responded between page 1 and my comment I apologize because I'm jumping to the conclusion that since people are still bumping this there's been no response.
You can't tell me no one has seen this thread in 2 months. What is going on?
This thread has been going on for a month and a half+...since Christmas.
No excuse for that. This is just rude now.
Relax, everyone, please.
Paizo employees have repeatedly stated that they are behind in their schedule, and that they have been working overtime for I don't know how long in order to fix this (as delayed products are guaranteed to garner a round of complaints).
In an ideal world, they'd be doing both that and answering every fan question out there. However, they have to set certain priorities. The business side must come first, which means, getting new product done. No one is saying that customer service isn't a part of business; it's just not the highest priority. And I bet that if Paizo had found a way to reduce their workload enough to answer rules questions here, they would have already done so.
So:
Relax.
It's only a game. Heck, it's only a single rule in a game. Use it the way you understand the rules (which, by the way, seem pretty clear to me). If and when Paizo issues an offical ruling, change the way you handle Trip et al. in your games. Not a big thing. Surely not worth insulting each other and/or Paizo over. Also, not worth bumping this thread every 5 minutes and being even more angry that HOW DARE THEY! THEY HAVE STILL NOT ANSWERED ME! It will probably not change a thing, except ruin your day.
The fact of the matter though is if you search by username for the various paizo folks you will see some pretty inane, random, pointless comments, done in a casual conversational sense. Such as talking about how busy they are going to be at upcoming cons, 4 paragraph posts on playing pcs of the opposite gender, etc, yet not one simple "hey sorry folks, yes we're aware of this thread/problem/question and we're trying to get something for you soon. We'll post back here periodically to let you know we haven't forgotten about you."
They have time to chat online for hours on end every tuesday night but not to answer rules questions that have been getting bumped sometimes several times a day for months.
How does one interpret that?
Edit: I deleted the remainder of my post because it was very inflammatory. I am continually biting my tongue because I don't want to tick people off. The reality though is that this is really getting old.
It's just another Bump-track... I think there's someone 'upstairs' just sitting there and giggles at how tenacious we are... :)
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bump
BTW- I posted this question in the Pathfinder Society forum as well and will try to trip someone in a Pathfinder Society game this weekend using a spear. We'll see what happens...
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Oh well, guess it's back to bump and hope...
Sorry, man. Rules board, please. :-) I'm not opening that pandora's box in this thread.
Seriously though, Paizo folks, can somebody please just post "We're undecided at the moment and will make an official decision in the next 30 days" or something like that?