Trip and Trip Weapons, Must they Go Together? (Looking for Clarification)


Rules Questions

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Quandary wrote:

But Shields can, and can have the entire range of weapon-specific bonuses to do so.

Oops, missed that, but that's only specifically through Feats. Otherwise, even a +3 bashing heavy spiked shield gains no specific bullrush bonus, or does it?


Regarding 'weapon' vector' / non 'weapon' vector', there seems some other issues connected with it:

if trip doesn't use unarmed as a vector, what is it's threat range? it seems like at minimum it has SOME of the characteristics of unarmed strike, which in my mind strengthens the case for it to use unarmed strike. or are you supposed to threaten your surrounding area (inherited from unarmed strike range) with trip attacks if you have improved trip even without improved unarmed strike? (i.e. you could not make normal Unarmed Strike AoO's, but you COULD make Trip AoO's) It seems at minimum that even if it does not use "Unarmed Strike" per se as a vector (e.g. for Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike), that Trip, and Bullrush and Grapple and Over-Run, all count as a Natural Weapon because that defines their threat range.

likewise, if it DOES use unarmed strike as a vector (like 3.5), then it also probably needs something like 3.5's wording "This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks." meaning if you have improved unarmed you don't provoke when tripping (that is in 3.5). I don't know what the intent in this area is for PRPG, but if unarmed strike IS the vector for trip, and it is desired from trip to provoke it's OWN AoO distinct from unarmed, it may be desirable to add a bit to the description of the improved trip feat saying it also negates the AoO from (un-improved) unarmed strike, even if you don't have IUS (though the current wording for ImpTrip could in fact mean exactly that)

Treelynx wrote:
Oops, missed that, but that's only specifically through Feats. Otherwise, even a +3 bashing heavy spiked shield gains no specific bullrush bonus, or does it?

Per RAW, I don't think so, but I would houserule it so you could, in other words the Feat SHOULD be allowing you to do this on top of a normal shield bash attack, but giving up normal attacks ONLY to do a bullrush with the shield seems reasonable (and easier than bullrushing somebody without such a shield).


TreeLynx wrote:

Oops, missed that, but that's only specifically through Feats. Otherwise, even a +3 bashing heavy spiked shield gains no specific bullrush bonus, or does it?

When using the shield slam feat, the shield is explicitly used to perform the bull rush. It would therefore benefit from the enchantments. Otherwise it would not, since Bull Rush has no specified vector.

The Exchange

2 Parts of note from the 3.5 trip that is missing in the PRPG wording.
"Tripping with a Weapon
Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity. "
"Making a Trip Attack
Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks."

Those two phrases allow me to understand what a trip is.

Jacob's Take on this---
"My take:
When you want to trip a foe, you don't normally use a weapon. Similarly, you don't normally use a weapon to bull rush, grapple, or overrun a foe. You just lash out with a leg sweep or whatever and try to trip the foe. Doing so is an attack, but that doesn't mean you need a weapon to make the attempt.
Now... SOME weapons (not all) allow you to use the weapon to trip a foe, thus giving you a slight advantage since if you mess up the trip attempt, you can just drop the weapon to "counter" the trip that comes back at you. "
and---
"In order to trip with reach, you either need to have reach on your own as a virtue of your race, or you need to be wielding a reach weapon with the trip ability.
Being able to trip with any long-hafted weapon like a spear or pole arm is a neat idea, but that's better handled as a specific feat rather than allowing any long-hafted weapon to gain the trip ability."

Mirror,mirror wrote:

Hmm. Apparently my response was deemed inappropriate. I was actually joking in that last bit, but I think it got taken seriously...

So, take 2:
Real solution - Combat in D&D is an abstraction, which means we only take into account vectors when it is called for. You use your weapon to trip someone, but you are NOT making an attack, and you are using the weapon in a manner that it is not built for (not a trip weapon). Therefore, you do not get the bonuses from feats and/or weapon enhancements. If the weapon WAS designed for tripping, you WOULD get those bonuses.
Test - Does this solution conflict with any of the existing rules? Does this solution run counter to the official ruling from Paizo?
The answer is no on both counts, therefore the solution is valid.
If the solution is NOT valid, why? If you agree it IS valid, why are we arguing, since it will also be valid in org-play and no eratta is needed to generate it, as RAW supplies all the needed info? If you do NOT feel RAW supplies all the needed info, which parts are not supplied?

So you are saying that a trip is done with my weapon(bolded) in my previous posts and yet Jacobs clearly states that only trip weapons can be used to trip someone. The only qualifier as to if I can trip is my ability to make a melee attack as a trip is an action the "takes the place of a melee attack". If I have no limbs free to do a trip, then how does it happen......"it just does" isn't an answer. 3.5 had an answer, PRPG left out some of the wording and left some things to question.

I only want errata to clear this up. I don't care which answer is right or wrong, only that the answer is clear in the book. Right now I don't believe it is and a good number of people agree. Those that don't see a clear answer are not stupid or uneducated as has been tossed around previously on the thread.

My patience on this matter is gone so I am done with this. I hope we see errata.


Quandary wrote:
if trip doesn't use unarmed as a vector, what is it's threat range? it seems like at minimum it has SOME of the characteristics of unarmed strike, which in my mind strengthens the case for it to use unarmed strike. or are you supposed to threaten your surrounding area (inherited from unarmed strike range) with trip attacks if you have improved trip even without improved unarmed strike? (i.e. you could not make normal Unarmed Strike AoO's, but you COULD make Trip AoO's)

Trip has no specific vector, so you threaten normally, as per standard combat rules. If you have IUS, you can threaten even while unarmed. Otherwise, you threaten as per your normal threat reach. If you are using a weapon with 10' reach that is not a trip weapon, you cannot trip with that weapon, so are ineligable to trip at 10'...

AHA! Now I get where the IUS is coming in! You can threaten with a reach weapon at 10', but you cannot trip them without a reach weapon. Since you also cannot use the weapon to threaten adjacent squares, can you trip an adjacent opponent while wielding a reach weapon? Is fo, is it therefore an unarmed strike, and therefore provokes an AoO unless you have IUS?

FakeHealer, I apologize. I did not understand what you were asking earlier. In this case I CAN see why you would want a vector applied detailing trip as an unarmed strike. The rules are indeed unclear.

And I can see why you would want clarification on Bull Rush. Can you Bull Rush while unarmed, and if so, do you provoke an AoO without IUS, assuming you already have ImpBullRush.

I respectfully suggest this specific example is best taken to a new thread. The answer to this specific case will determine the outcome of all other questions, and possibly need an eratta to address


Mirror, Mirror wrote:

...

I respectfully suggest this specific example is best taken to a new thread. The answer to this specific case will determine the outcome of all other questions, and possibly need an eratta to address

Trip and Spiked Gauntlet posted yesterday posed the question.


Caineach wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:

...

I respectfully suggest this specific example is best taken to a new thread. The answer to this specific case will determine the outcome of all other questions, and possibly need an eratta to address
Trip and Spiked Gauntlet posted yesterday posed the question.

Ah, I see. Thanks.


James Jacobs,

I appreciate the rule clarification!

Sovereign Court

Wow, get sick for a few days and the thread explodes.

Yay, we got official clarification and it mirrors my interpretations of the rule. Smiles abound, well off to the next thread.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

For the paizo answer, please return to page 7 of this thread. Thank you, and have a lovely evening.


From the PRD: "Trip: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped."

Okay, as an experienced GM, I think the wording is obvious, you can attempt a trip COMBAT MANUVER with any weapon, but you can only make a "TRIP ATTACK" with a trip weapon. That is, a trip weapon is a weapon that maintains full functionality when applied as a tripping implement (i.e. a scythe).
The down-side to doing this is that you have to hit their AC or you get no trip attempt, ergo, it is less useful against highly armored opponents whereas, if you only attempt a trip, you just do the manuver check which is statistically much easier than having to beat both their AC and CMB. So the give and take is that if you really want to trip you forego the attack and just do the manuver, but if you like your odds, you can do a "trip attack" instead and potentially do damage too.
Essentially trip weapons work like a wolf's trip ability.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Enduin-

I'm no expert, but I'm not aware of a difference between a trip-combat-maneuver and a trip-attack. My understanding is that when you use a weapon to trip, you forgo the damage and just try to knock someone down. It doesn't, AFAIK, work like a wolf's trip, where you do a damage attack, and if it hits, you get to try a take-down as well.Cool idea, but I've never heard of it working like that.

BTW, just noticed this on the FAQ...

From the FAQ: "If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?

No. Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all--for example, you can trip when you're unarmed, even though unarmed strike isn't listed as a trip weapon.
There are advantages to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver. One, if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone. Two, you can apply the weapon's enhancement bonus, weapon-specific attack bonuses such as Weapon Focus, and so on to your trip combat maneuver roll.
For example, you'd add the enhancement bonus from a +5 whip to your trip combat maneuver roll because a whip is a trip weapon. You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.

—Sean K Reynolds, 03/15/11"

James Jacobs wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Honestly, I really want a response from Jason Buhlman on this issue...

Kind of like how if as a kid you ask Mom if you can do something and she says no so instead you go ask Dad if you can do the same thing hoping to get the answer you want?

Honestly, I don't think the problem is a problem. It seems pretty clear to me, but since this thread's 7 pages long it's obviously NOT clear.

But basically... when you trip a foe you don't use a weapon. If you want to use a weapon, you have to use one that lists "trip" under its Special category.

;)


The idea that you can't use a weapon to trip someone unless that weapon has some special property designed to aid with tripping, is just a little bit silly. There are all kinds of real world examples of both eastern and western martial arts using weapons to leverage an opponent to trip or throw them.

And then when we start getting into the realm of pathfinder feats, which commonly allow a character to do something fantastic and/or not normally possible in the real world....the logic of not being able to use any weapon to help trip people gets even weaker.

I realize that Pathfinder and 3.5 are games with arbitrary rules made to maintain balance, but this particular ruling doesn't seem to make much sense. If anything, weapons with the Trip attribute should be adding a bonus to trip attempts, not preventing trip attempts from weapons without the attribute.

Thank god for house rules. :)


Necro-ing a 6 year old thread, that's gotta be some kind of record lol

Grand Lodge

HeHateMe wrote:
Necro-ing a 6 year old thread, that's gotta be some kind of record lol

It's only 4 years old, and there is an answer in an FAQ and a blog post, now.


God...yeah. I'm so sorry! I completely misread the year. All I saw was Jul 14th.....

/facepalm of +10 embarrassment.

Grand Lodge

So, just FYI, Sir Cowdog:
Any weapon an be used to trip, and any feats, enhancements, etc., that are appropriate wiukll apply to the trip attack.

Unlike Disarm, the Trip keyword does not give a bonus to making trips, its main use is that yu can drop such a weapon if you fail a trip attack by 10 or more so you don't get tripped yourself.

The Blog post adds that the Trip keyword allows the weapon to be used for Reposition and Drag maneuvers, as well as trips.


Yeah, I saw that after I posted. I went and did research on the topic(which I SHOULD have done before typing). Glad to see trip turned out this way. :)


KnightErrantJR wrote:

I'm starting this thread not so much to debate this issue, as its come up in a lot of other threads, but to see if either anyone has run across an official statement from one of the Paizo crew or if one of the Paizo crew would like to officially answer.

To clarify, I'm wondering if you need to have a weapon with the trip quality in order to use the trip action with a weapon, and if, when you don't have trip weapons, do you automatically trip unarmed?

Once again, I'm not really looking to debate this so much as I'm just wondering if anything official has been said at this point. Thanks all.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-TRIP


pseudonyme13 wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:

I'm starting this thread not so much to debate this issue, as its come up in a lot of other threads, but to see if either anyone has run across an official statement from one of the Paizo crew or if one of the Paizo crew would like to officially answer.

To clarify, I'm wondering if you need to have a weapon with the trip quality in order to use the trip action with a weapon, and if, when you don't have trip weapons, do you automatically trip unarmed?

Once again, I'm not really looking to debate this so much as I'm just wondering if anything official has been said at this point. Thanks all.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-TRIP

I'm not sure if the Original Poster will see your response since they asked their question 9 years ago.....

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