I've been looking for some different ideas on how to map out dungeons.
1. We have the wet erase grid we can always draw on. that is the easy quick solution, but its not that pretty and can't be done in advance.
2. We have some dungeon tiles, but not enough. I could buy more, but they are somewhat limited and you have to buy more all the time.
3. The DMcraft on youtube has some neat looking gridless tiles made out of cardboard, but that looks a little too time consuming and they have no grids, which I guess I would prefer to have grids.
4. I could draw them on big graph paper, but that is crinkly and can get crushed. I might end up doing this.
5. We do have some cool 3d terrain we sometimes use, but it doesn't work for caverns and dungeons and most indoor situations.
Thanks for your ideas?
I just use a dry-erase battlemat for tactical encounters, and a rough sketch of the area on regular paper for overland types of stuff. I rarely, if ever, do anything resembling a 'dungeon' anymore.
My wife and I have been utilizing Worldworks Games' Terraclips line for dungeon/sewer/streets/buildings terrain in the PFS sessions that we have GM'd.
I've been using MapTool and two or more laptops (one for me, others for the PCs) for about two years. It's going quite well!
Overhead transparencies
Perfect to predraw something and then lay on the gridmap when needed. They can be re-used and are easy to store away
Anything involving a complex map is usually done on transparencies at our table
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I use a ceiling-mounted projector with a 45-degree hanging mirror to project my dungeons onto the game table. Affixed to the table is smooth whiteboard paper (almost like contact paper but removable) to make the colors vivid. I typically project maps I make in MapTool (by RP Tools) but also use any available vivid dungeon map. With the grid projected from above, I'm also able to draw freely with dry erase pens on the table.
I mix it up with dungeon tiles for special occasions but use black shelf liner to enable the tiles to stay affixed in place when doing so.
At times I build 3-d terrain using Terraclips 3D sets. When going 3d I accessorize the setting with a collection of miscellaneous rocks, barrels, trees, crystals, or other collected terrain features.
In time I plan to hack a Wiimote and mount it on the ceiling, allowing players to move their digital character tokens about with RF pens, but haven't yet done that. For now, I use Pathfinder minis, D&D minis, Pathfinder Pawns, and my own tokens as needed.
FYI: "going digital" is easier than you think. I will say that I most enjoy the combination of digital and miniatures the best.
Good gaming,
Pax
So you are saying the Ceiling mounted projector idea is easier than I think?
Do you have a picture of your setup? How would I do this?
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I could draw them on big graph paper, but that is crinkly and can get crushed. I might end up doing this.
With the pads, they are usually cardboard-backed and easy to store in a closet. I'm a fan of these.
I tend to run a lot of AP content, where some of the scenes are so unique, there's no pre-printed maps or 3D terrain that will quite communicate the scene.
The Glassworks.
The Shadow Clock.
I hit up a local Staples and get big pads of aisle-sized graph paper. They are conveniently already drawn in 1" by 1" squares.
Then, also from Staples, I get to work with thick colored sharpies (black, brown, green and blue get the most work-out) in tandem with color pencils. A ruler helps a lot, too.
It takes about 15-20 minutes a map, but the end result is fully in color, and if you're decent at shading it can look fairly impressive.
Fixed elements that can be used for cover (like crates, barrels, beds, tables, chairs), I use Dwarven Forge accessories
In other cases, the large glossy Gamemastery maps are great (i.e. Oleg's Trading Post in Kingmaker)
I think I may glue the big graph paper from Staples to poster board and make my own tiles that way. I like the idea of different color markers and pencils to jazz the map up a bit.
Thanks for the suggestions. Post more if there are any other good ones.
Welp, I use a variety of tools.
I don't have much money, so I can't afford a fancy projector like the others here.
I have two wet erase mats, and several watercolor markers. I use lots of minis I gathered over the years, particularly the non Medium sized ones. Quick tip, never buy a duplicate of ANY mini, even if you need lots of them. That way even if they look inappropriate, the players can target specific individuals.
I also use these little foam cubes that are 2" by 2", which are perfect for any swarm or ooze that can envelop, or raised terrain. I have a castle set from Mageknight I use on rare occasions, siege engines and the like, collect every normal animal mini I can find (harder than it looks), and just recently commissioned a painter to take a pewter Conestoga wagon and paint it right for my PC group.
I also have a yardstick I use for measuring. An ice cream bucket and a old washcloth serve as an eraser, and I have a magnetic battleboard I use to keep track of the game rounds. I even do initiative in a better way than is presented in the core book, a way that actually keeps the players watching all through the round, and makes initiative more important.
So I guess I do battles really well, but I really need to learn how to imitate voices!
I also have a few of those map tiles Paizo sells, like the farmland, village market, etc. I want to get the army camp one, as that seems useful. I keep a Nerf blaster to nail stupid or inattentive players with. Having a laser printer is really nice for printing out character sheets on the fly! That said, if I had more money, I would buy one of those electronic tablets so I could read pdfs much easier than mucking about on my PC. I could save moolah that way....
One thing I learned, female minis are much rarer than males, and minis that aren't Large or Medium are rarer still.
Forgot to add, I use an old army men set and some cowboys n' indians plastic sets to add cheapo terrain features, like walls and the like. I got them over at Walgreens once.
I run my games on a budget, and on my mother's dining-room table. I just use a Chessex gridded mat (the largest one I could find - I think it's about 34x44"), and wet-erase markers. Since I'm running the Legacy of Fire adventure path, I just draw the maps onto my mat. I've bought the bestiary box of tokens, and I make my own out of foamboard and art I find on the 'net (and rip from pdfs when I'm not feeling so lazy). I've borrowed my mother's backup iPad and keep the pdfs I need on there, keep a link to the d20SRD open, and keep the book handy as well, in case I need to flip to a particular statblock quickly.
I've run into a few problems, though, particularly with larger dungeons. I'm considering getting some of the gaming paper you can buy - glossy paper for wet/dry-erase markers with 1" grids drawn on it already - drawing the rooms on it, cutting them out, and putting them on the table as my players explore. If I had a dedicated gaming room, I'd go the projector route in a heartbeat.
I have a transparent grid (about 32" x 40") that I used to lay over maps drawn and/or painted on craft paper.
This was great for pre-drawing encounter locations and dungeons, and for doodling on the map without ruining the real map underneath. I also used to "hide" section with some layering tricks. This was cool.
Unfortunately it was a square grid and I *much* prefer hex. To this day I haven't found any sizable transparent hex grid :(
'findel
Quick tip, never buy a duplicate of ANY mini, even if you need lots of them. That way even if they look inappropriate, the players can target specific individuals.
Take a post-it note and write along the top edge some letters from A to J or symbols or whatever. Cut that strip of numbers off and then cut in between the numbers to get little squares. Stick the squares onto the base of your minis. Then your players can say, "I hit zombie Q for 9 points of damage."
I pre-draw maps onto flip-maps (the blank basic ones or the blank sides of some of the older flip-maps), gaming paper, and a gridded plexiglass board. Even using dry erase markers on the flip-maps, I find that they hold up for two or three gaming sessions. I'll stack the flip-maps on the table ahead of time and everything works out just fine.
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Some of the GMs in my area have taken to using 1-inch light blue grid paper from staples spray-glued onto foam core board (Credit to Lance if he's reading this). The foam-core is super cheap from any "dollar-store" type place. Use an exacto knife to cut the rooms out once down. Quick to make and since you can lay down room by room, you have a nice fog of war exploration effect going on. You could even print your map, glue and cut should you desire not to hand draw.
Good ol' Paint tool Sai
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8385/8675515693_4631719177_h.jpg
Mind you I mostly dabble in play-by-posts, this works just as well for games.
Quick tip, never buy a duplicate of ANY mini, even if you need lots of them. That way even if they look inappropriate, the players can target specific individuals.Take a post-it note and write along the top edge some letters from A to J or symbols or whatever. Cut that strip of numbers off and then cut in between the numbers to get little squares. Stick the squares onto the base of your minis. Then your players can say, "I hit zombie Q for 9 points of damage."
They aren't as visible as simply having different minis. It's a nice idea though, but ultimately just having different minis that are of the same size works better for targeting and generally differentiating between monsters.
I use small chips (from an old CLR game) and number the chips on one side. This way I can identify which one is which, the players know which one is which and when they die, they simple get flipped over so their location is there in the rare event of that misplaced channel.
bigger critters get bigger chips, ect ect
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Some of the GMs in my area have taken to using 1-inch light blue grid paper from staples spray-glued onto foam core board (Credit to Lance if he's reading this). The foam-core is super cheap from any "dollar-store" type place. Use an exacto knife to cut the rooms out once down. Quick to make and since you can lay down room by room, you have a nice fog of war exploration effect going on. You could even print your map, glue and cut should you desire not to hand draw.
I like this idea, I will give it a try...thanks for posting.
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I have two wet-erase battlemats that I use. The largest one I use to draw out the dungeon as it is explored, typically at 10' per square. I have a smaller one I use to draw out the current room or section if a fight is taking place.
For multi-session dungeons, I have a 1" gridded easel-pad of paper that I'll use to draw out the dungeon. I can pre-draw some of the rooms to speed things along.
Instead of minis, I like to use a couple of dozen 1" wooden discs from a craft store with some 1/2" circle labels on them. I write PC names on theirs, and M1 to M20 for the monsters with a couple for bosses. Put a label on the other side for being prone, and you just flip the disc when a monster goes down.
To run the battle I use Combat Manager on a laptop. (http://combatmanager.com/ : Excellent program)
I found some foam board at staples that already has a grid on it. The grid is 1/2 in but it worked out ok. I thought using this would be easier than gluing the paper to the foam board or poster board.
It took a few hours to cut out a 12 room dungeon. I didn't cut out ever hallway, those will be easy enough to draw in on the battlemat.
Does anyone know where I can print out some map images that I can print out and put on my map?
Thanks,
John
At the high end, Dungeon Forge, 8 boxes. Yeah, I don't travel with those.
Well equipped groups usually have their own map or 4, so dry erase works. I also have a number of the Golem's Map Packs and several of the D&D sets as well. Easy to move and expanding files make it easy to organize.
Come the fall, I'm going to have over $400 sunk into DF's new portable stuff.
I was just thinking that printing out some 1 inch grid paper on card stock might be a good way to go for custom rooms if you don't have the dungeon tiles already.
Anyone else do this?
I was just thinking that printing out some 1 inch grid paper on card stock might be a good way to go for custom rooms if you don't have the dungeon tiles already.
Anyone else do this?
I have (except they were hexes...), then proceeded to paint them with water colours. Works with laser printed sheets, but not so well with inkjets. Also, I had to use particularly thick/absorbent stock otherwise the paper warped beyond control with the application of watercolours, which my household laser printer would not accept.
The "problem" is that unless you're ready to pay extra, you're maxed to 11x17 format and need to tile maps together. I wish I could easily do that with larger sheets.
...now that I think of it, going to an industrial blue-print shop might be cheap enough to consider. Since blueprints are no longer blue, they'd be able to print hex grid of 30" wide by 60" long. I wonder if they have non water-resistant papers (otherwise it defeats the purpose of water painting it)
hummm, this deserves a trip to the industrial boulevard in town...
Typically we use the wet erase mat. It you take your time before hand a little effort can make a decent map. I have about 50 or 60 antique cloth napkins that can be pulled away as the dungeon is explored little by little. Other tricks for the battle mat is arrange for the PCs to find a map through, interrogation, diplomacy, research or just plain plot device. This way you only add secrets and furniture to the map.
I am prepping now for a turn DMing Skull and Shackles. I have been using PDFs, map packs and pics from the internet altering the size so that I can print them to scale, once printed glueing the finished map to cardboard or card stock. This AP has a number of ships and you are on ships for long periods of the AP. My only expenses for this is glue and printing which I have a great discount on.
Anything you can do with foamcore you can do with cardboard and cardboard can be free.
Anything you can do with cardstock you can do by gluing regular paper to cereal box grade cardboard. Again free.
After I make the ships I am thinking of using some of the toys my kids have out grown or the old Castle Greyskull I picked up from a garage sale as well some paint or decopage glue or hot glue and just about anything can be done with time.
Awhile back we had a fight set in town. My friends wife had one of those dickens era Christmas village about the right scale so I just moved it to the table for the encounter.
Battlemats are awesome, but I want to have dungeon tiles or roms I can make in advance, so unless I cut up my battle mat into room sized shapes, that won't work for me.
I found that printing the grid on letter sized card stock was good for small rooms, but it is not big enough.
What I really think I want now is poster board with grids pre-printed on it.
The foam core is too think and takes too long to cut. The paper flip charts is too thin. I could glue to poster board, but that is a step I would like to avoid - spray glue seems like it would be messy.
So I am still searching for the solution that works for me....
I can't find poster board sized and thickness paper with a 1" grid printed. You think that would be everywhere!!
I could glue to poster board, but that is a step I would like to avoid - spray glue seems like it would be messy.
Honestly, if you get something like 3M 75 Repositionable spray glue, it isn't. You'll want to use it outside or in a garage or build a spray hood out of a cardboard box (that's what I do) but the stuff is clear, doesn't seep in the slightest, and the lightest dusting of spray is enough to turn any piece of paper into a post-it note, effectively.
If you get chart paper from an office supply store ($25-30 for a pad of 50 sheets), you'll have your 1" grid. Lightly spray it with the adhesive and stick it down to your backing of choice. The paper won't buckle or even feel wet and if you mess up on laying it down, you can un-peel and replace it as many times as you like until you get it right. The stuff is nigh-foolproof.
you can buy sheet sized (8-1/2 x 11) clear transparency sheets (like what they use on overhead projectors). they can be layed over any standard grid battlemat so you can see through to the grid. You can easily predraw on them and if necessary clear tape a few together for things larger than one sheet. Depending on the marker you use, they can be erased and used over again and they are not much thicker than a sheet of paper
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I personally like gamming paper. Its basically sheets of wrapping paper with a grid on it (now comes in different colors and effects, like cobblestone). My girlfriend in particular likes it as she neatly draws maps ahead of time, then rolls it back up for easy storage.
Also for dugneons and indoor settings I have just recently got ahold of some of the terra clips products. They are customizable 3d terrain that are great for buildings, dungeons, sewers etc. They are fairly complex though they are highly customizable, so if you are willing to take the time, you can do ALOT with a couple sets of those products.
They are a bit pricey (you can get a deal on amazon at time though)
Buildings of Malifaux
Please note that their estimates for how many connecter sets you need seems low to me. I used most of 4 sets to assemple just the peices from the streets of malifaux and the builsings of malifaux
you can buy sheet sized (8-1/2 x 11) clear transparency sheets (like what they use on overhead projectors). they can be layed over any standard grid battlemat so you can see through to the grid. You can easily predraw on them and if necessary clear tape a few together for things larger than one sheet. Depending on the marker you use, they can be erased and used over again and they are not much thicker than a sheet of paper
Did this some time back. Suggest drawing on the side tat will be on the bottom to avoid lines getting erased. Lines that will be erased can be made on the top so that a quick wipe vanishes the 'illusionary wall' that hid the goblins (not my game, but a great 'reveal').
On to other things, DrivethruRPG/RPGNow has a number of downloadable systems. Some actually pull 3D duty.
Currently, I'm running the Carrion Crown AP. I picked up Dundjinni when the store reopened. I use it in conjunction with Roll20.net and the flat-screen TV in my living room.
At first I was creating custom maps for pretty much every encounter, but I decided this was too time-consuming; now I am doing full maps for the major 'dungeons' throughout the AP and use a standard blank grid and dry erase markers for random or more mundane encounters.
I would like to eventually find an inexpensive place to do high-quality plotter 'prints' of maps that I create, as I love the Dundjinni maps but the virtual tabletop option available via Roll20 leaves some to be desired in my opinion.
Usually, when I draw it out on graph paper, I'll photocopy the map at my job, then cut up the rooms into little tiles to act as sort of a minimap. I only ever need to draw out the room if there is an encounter there that requires it (combat, trap).
My group also uses a dry-erase grid board. When we need permanent maps, we just use a sharpie instead of a dry-erase marker. When you need to take the sharpie off, you can either mark over it with a dry erase marker or just use rubbing alcohol.
We primarily use a dry-erase grid board as well.
That said, I'm a pro fantasy cartography, and when I have time, I create the dungeon/encounter maps with my drawing application, then print as a b/w large format full scale map. I also run a RPG Map Printing service called Gamer Printshop. While I can print high res, glorious color prints - doing so in b/w only runs $3.00 a sheet at 24" x 36", which is pretty reasonable, reasonable enough to throw away when I'm done.
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I used to create reams of highly detailed maps, first drawn by hand, then when computers became commonplace, using computer graphics programs (going all the way back to the original "MacPaint" in fact...)
My first dungeon had an entire loose-leaf binder dedicated just to my maps alone. I still have them, and I frequently find them useful even today.
Probably the zenith of my mapping activity was about ten years ago when I mapped out every single square foot of a massive goblin lair, printed the maps on 8.5x11 paper and taped them all together into a single super-map that was much too big to fit on our gaming table, so it had to hang off the edge. I covered the entire thing with clear contact paper to waterproof and strengthen it, then covered it with masking tape to hide the details until the party explored an area.
It was epic. My gaming group loved it. The final result was about six feet by nine feet, and literally every inch of it was part of the lair.
However it was a logistical and creative nightmare, and I eventually had the pages printed at a Kinkos because I was using up so much printer ink it was costing me a fortune. After that I built a digital gaming table so that I could create virtual maps and just display them on the digital display built into the table. That was (and is) also awesome. I used Dundjinni and MapTools as my primary mapping software.
But lately I've started making 3D terrain out of Hirst Arts plaster casting molds, which is not merely more gritty and detailed, but allows for highly specific three-dimensional modeling of castles, turrets, bridges, etc.
At some point I think I may discover that I have a problem...
My advice to you is get some basic white board, draw your 1" grid in indelible marker ink and use dry erase markers to draw your maps as you go. Seriously, it will save you a fortune in equipment, furniture and luggage, not to mention years of your life you'll have to actually play the game.
I've made a few hallways, some floor tiles and some arches, all with the intention of "someday" making a dungeon out of Hirst arts molds. The reality is it is a patient man's game, one best completed by someone with gobs of free time. Between work, overtime, marriage, 2 kids, school, and all the other things that come along, I'm lucky to have that much!
That being said...DO IT! Go get plastered.
Go pick up some Hirst arts molds. I prefer gothic to fieldstone, but to each their own. Spend the money and buy some, then get yourself some cheap PoP or maybe some craft plaster or something easy for your first few molds, just to try it out.
If you have the time (20-45 minutes per cast, depending on humidity, type of plaster, etc) and the space (at least one decent-sized table covered in something to keep the plaster from getting to the surface) I highly recommend this hobby.
Yeah, when all's said and done you've got to then sand and glue the bricks, then paint them. But y'know what? The first time you assemble a hallway leading into a room with full-on 3d décor and a paint job, then you get down at table level and stare down that hall to see what your character sees...you are HOOKED!
@AD: Plastered 4 life! Ok, maybe that's over the top, but I still like HA molds. Whatever happened to Voidgamers though...
Mark, I've got bins full of cast but unassembled Hirst blocks, a cavern complete with underground lake and various and sundry bridges, towers, rooms, etc. done in Hirst blocks.
It's become a hobby all its own. In spite of my great enjoyment of making stuff out of them I have come to realize that a little bit of it goes a long, long way during an actual game. It can be a real pain to try to assemble a table-sized dungeon out of those blocks.
I'm in the midst of buying a new house. For that past decade all of my gaming has been at other people's houses or gaming stores because I live deep in the mountains and it wasn't practical to have people drive out here. With the new house in town I hope to be able to incorporate much more of my terrain since I won't have to break it down and haul it halfway across the state to play.
Spray adhesive can be a pain. You can use rubber cement or even a glue stick for just getting paper on cardboard or foam core if you get the edges right it will be fine. If you want really easy and last for ever look for Modpodge. It comes in several styles including waterproof. For making your own buildings out of foamcore or cardboard you can slather it on and once it is on put a coat on top too its protected (waterproof if you for the right kind)and looks great.
You can also use good ole fashioned Styrofoam.
Aileen's Tacky Glue.
Best craft glue ever.
@Wolverine's lizard: I have the bins of unassembled bricks too. I also have bits of a gothic dungeon; some painted, some unpainted. I've gotten them on the table a few times but unfortunately they were not as well regarded by my players as by me.
The game shifted and another GM took over for a while. He used dungeon tiles and maps made in GIMP. That worked just as well, so we went that way for a time. Still I enjoyed 3d however and I tried to sneak it in here and there.
Now my HA stuff is mostly used for décor on a 2d plane. For example we might lay out a battlemat, draw out a room, then add an altar, some rubble or a couple arched doorways. I've also used stairwells minis could stand on once or twice.
Still my dream remains the same. A lot of my players are wargamer/boardgamer types who play just for the tactics. This dream of mine is that I complete a sprawling dungeon complex in modular bits, assemble it, then use some method of covering it (paper, a sheet, whatever). As we game and explore the dungeon the areas are uncovered and the party has to deal with whatever's there.
It's a dream. I have no confidence, given my current lifestyle and the intermittent commitment of my players that it will become a reality soon. But these molds last a LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG time. If not now, then later...
@ the rest of you: this is why I feel so strongly about HA. Yes, it is labor-intensive but if, unlike me you have a regular game on a somewhat predictable schedule, these molds allow you to have a lot of versatility while also adding immersion. But the real advantage is the molds themselves will last, so you can always create more stuff.
If you get the basic fieldstone and gothic molds, just floors and walls, and just take the time to mold bricks and glue them a lot, then in a bit of time you've got some nice, basic modular rooms and hallways. Now imagine; with these 2 styles and a bit of modular design you now have the tavern layout, an open plaza, dungeon rooms, a church or many other battle areas.
Put them on a piece of green felt: outdoor ruin. Put them on top of a piece of used sandpaper; you've got a desert/badlands scene.
I've done a lot of these w/my pieces. This is kind of how we use them now; to decorate an already drawn area. But the versatility is worth the investment of time and money IMO.
Best is: if you want to be more advanced, there's always a mold out there that enables your creativity. Or make your own. Either way, with another mold and a bit more time, that basic modular set suddenly has braziers, arched windows, elaborate stairwells.
This is our hobby, and many of us learned it as kids. Do with it what your moms and dads told you to: Go. Play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMhk6eIX29g
So you are saying the Ceiling mounted projector idea is easier than I think?
Do you have a picture of your setup? How would I do this?
I use a ceiling-mounted projector with a 45-degree hanging mirror to project my dungeons onto the game table. Affixed to the table is smooth whiteboard paper (almost like contact paper but removable) to make the colors vivid. I typically project maps I make in MapTool (by RP Tools) but also use any available vivid dungeon map. With the grid projected from above, I'm also able to draw freely with dry erase pens on the table.
I mix it up with dungeon tiles for special occasions but use black shelf liner to enable the tiles to stay affixed in place when doing so.
At times I build 3-d terrain using Terraclips 3D sets. When going 3d I accessorize the setting with a collection of miscellaneous rocks, barrels, trees, crystals, or other collected terrain features.
In time I plan to hack a Wiimote and mount it on the ceiling, allowing players to move their digital character tokens about with RF pens, but haven't yet done that. For now, I use Pathfinder minis, D&D minis, Pathfinder Pawns, and my own tokens as needed.
FYI: "going digital" is easier than you think. I will say that I most enjoy the combination of digital and miniatures the best.
Good gaming,
Pax
I've been thinking about something along this line. Do you happen to know of a relatively cheap (price not quality) projector that can be used with a laptop (maybe via bluetooth) to easily switch out maps, or to mark AoEs & lighted/low-light areas on the table?
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I've used Legos to build dungeon maps/models. It was an interesting experience; a surge of nostalgia of course.
* 3D is actually really easy; you can place flying critters on blocks to indicate height.
* Customizable miniatures! Might distract players though.
* Immersion so-so. Players can get distracted playing with the Legos.
* High clarity.
* Lots of fancy scenery (chests with gold...)
* Some confusion about the grid size; the miniatures don't fit nicely on 2x2 grid (the arms stick out), but 3x3 or 4x4 grid takes up a lot of space.
* Miniatures can be stuck to the map, so less chance of accidental dice rolls moving them across the map.
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Blow up some grid paper and use m&m s and skittles as monsters. We only have one rule among us, "you keep what you kill!"