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Seriously, if it takes a week for a given object, and he has 2 slots and 4 pearls of power, he's just done the work that 6 craftsmen lived off of...for a week...and if you think he can't undercut them 20% and sell like crazy...you're amazingly wrong.It depends on the items. Weapons and armors are not sold very quickly by themselves (and you need to craft the good ones).
Other items are quickly made by smiths/crafters, and your common wizard will not upset the market enough to make crafter in the city unsafe.
But I repeat : he will make much better profit by casting spells without components for the merchants (he will even have a little discount with those !), the lord (for favors, in addition to gold), the militia (to be seen with good views by the militia and people, instead of seen as the jerk that craft unlimited sets of adamantine armor to make smiths ridiculous, or the wizard that can destroy cities if he woke up moody), or nobles (for influence).
Yes I thought it through. And no, it is less attractive to craft armor with fabricate that to do anything else. It is interesting though to accept a crafting demand from an NPC and craft it if needed, but it won't be the same (you will ask the NPC to provide the component, and he will pay the normal cost for casting a spell, 5x10xCL of your wizard).
If the craftsmen can sell them, he can.
What's more, rather than wait weeks...or maybe even months, he does it on the spot. Tell me he won't get all the business he can handle. In short order, it'll be all the high-end crafting in the city, if he wants it.
If the craftsmen can sell them, he can.
What's more, rather than wait weeks...or maybe even months, he does it on the spot. Tell me he won't get all the business he can handle. In short order, it'll be all the high-end crafting in the city, if he wants it.
Sounds like a good way to end up with a knife in your belly.
Does anything in the rules forbid that the work is split up?
I mean yes if you make a horse shoe there can only be 1 person working on one particular item.
But for a suit of armor with dozens of separate pieces it should be possible to split the time for each person working on it (within reason).
Lets assume this:
An old experience Smith (Human, Age 40, Level 3 expert) and his oldest son (Age 21, Human Level 2 expert) work together to make 1 suit of armor. The smith's wife and his younger son (Level 1) assist them during the day.
Now since the old guy is much better he does the delicate and difficult stuff (the glove and the underlying chain mail). The young son who still has all his strength, but still has not yet reached his dad's skill does the big armor pieces (Chest, Back, Shins, Bracers, etc...) that involve mostly a lot of hammer swinging.
As 2 people can work side by side each on individual pieces (consider crafting piecemeal armor parts and in the end adding it together to form a full plate) you can cut the time in half (maybe add 10% for the final assembly).
I'm not gonna regurgitate the math part but according to previous posters if the smith is somewhat optimized the crafting time would be 8-10 weeks or so. Now split in half it would 4-5 weeks. And those are not really super awesome smiths. Just father and son working together.
I could imagine that in a kingdom the royalty has a whole crew of smiths, each focusing on a single part of a full plate. If it's 10 smiths with an assistant each you could craft 1 or 2 fullplates a week.
As 2 people can work side by side each on individual pieces (consider crafting piecemeal armor parts and in the end adding it together to form a full plate) you can cut the time in half (maybe add 10% for the final assembly).
Except it doesn't work like that in the rules : you can help other (to add +2 to the craft check), but not make each craft checks and add results (as you wrote they did).
That's why crafting rules are bad, as it's quicker to 2 smiths to make each their own set of armors than make 2 armors while the 2 work together.
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Sounds like a good way to end up with a knife in your belly.If the craftsmen can sell them, he can.
What's more, rather than wait weeks...or maybe even months, he does it on the spot. Tell me he won't get all the business he can handle. In short order, it'll be all the high-end crafting in the city, if he wants it.
...and that sounds safer than a dragon.
Mind you, if the wizard can't fabricate masterwork, the world goes back to normal. I'm just explaining why you don't want wizards to be able to fabricate masterwork items.
That's why crafting rules are bad, as it's quicker to 2 smiths to make each their own set of armors than make 2 armors while the 2 work together.
Then just make piecemeal armor for real. Each part has its own price and thus can be crafted as individual part. Problem solved.
Mind you, if the wizard can't fabricate masterwork, the world goes back to normal.
The stone masonry guild would beg to differ.
...and that sounds safer than a dragon.
But, when you're seeking to loot its horde, the dragon doesn't come to you. You find it and decide when to fight it on your terms. The hired assassin, on the other hand, well that comes to you on its terms.
Also, with Masterwork Transformation, all that an inability to craft masterwork items does is prevent you from making items of certain materials if your interpretation of the item makes it a necessity. Add in Blood Money(which might be open to interpretation) or False Focus(which would only apply to masterwork tools but still make an obscene profit) and you're making pure profit off that portion as well.
The real problem is that if the world somehow allows wizards to spend all their time fabricating anything, they'd destroy the market of everything except high end goods of specific materials and things that are too inexpensive to bother using the spell for, regardless of masterwork or no. Since that hasn't become a problem, there is another factor preventing it. Either a social contract, a problem of economics or simply more profitable ways to spend their time.
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...and that sounds safer than a dragon.But, when you're seeking to loot its horde, the dragon doesn't come to you. You find it and decide when to fight it on your terms. The hired assassin, on the other hand, well that comes to you on its terms.
Also, with Masterwork Transformation, all that an inability to craft masterwork items does is prevent you from making items of certain materials if your interpretation of the item makes it a necessity. Add in Blood Money(which might be open to interpretation) or False Focus(which would only apply to masterwork tools but still make an obscene profit) and you're making pure profit off that portion as well.
The real problem is that if the world somehow allows wizards to spend all their time fabricating anything, they'd destroy the market of everything except high end goods of specific materials and things that are too inexpensive to bother using the spell for, regardless of masterwork or no. Since that hasn't become a problem, there is another factor preventing it. Either a social contract, a problem of economics or simply more profitable ways to spend their time.
At least Masterwork Transformation takes an hour. Of course, the real deal is using fabricate to produce masterwork items...that's where it becomes obscene...dwarven plate being the big one...and maybe I'm silly, but I think it should take a dwarven smith to make dwarven plate...otherwise it's just an imitation. ;)
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When I posted my thread a couple days ago about crafting mundane and not so mundane, besides understanding the rule, which still need clarification from official sources in my mind (at least when you add in Fabricate, adamantine, and other extraordinary factors), I just wanted to save a few gold pieces in cost since I had just spent nearly 9000 gold on various things.
Why wouldn't the spell description for Fabricate use the term "masterwork"? Is that a legacy oversight or deliberate choice?
I really don't think it is an oversight. I think they needed to rule it out.
From earlier posts:
There is no language in Fabricate where 'a check' means 'make as many checks as you need.'
There is no language in Fabricate that references allowing you to make a check for masterwork purposes.
You cannot cast two fabricate spells at the same time, the same way you cannot cast ANY two spells at the same time. Fabricate makes and finishes an item. A Masterwork crafting check is made DURING the process of creation, not afterwards.
There is nothing in Fabricate that allows you to make a normal item a masterwork item. If you take normal plate mail, and use Fabricate on it, it counts as raw materials for another suit of plate mail. That's how the spell works. It doesn't work any other way.
Masterwork transformation allows you to make a normal item masterwork. Fabricate does not have the Masterwork Transformation language as a part of the spell. It cannot do that. It allows you to take raw materials, make ONE crafting check, and get a completed item in seconds.
'Low quality items not requiring a check' means that there are items out there that are of so low difficulty to make, you don't need to make a skill check. A torch. Poles. A club. Rough rope. Normal candles. A crude dagger or hand axe. A crude raft.
High quality items are those that have a DC higher then 10, meaning you can only take 10 with skill ranks in the skill. Normal Full plate requires a craft check of 19...just less then Masterwork. It's a normal item, and yet undoubtedly of high quality. All armors are increasingly better and more demanding as they go up in protective ability, so their quality increases. 'High Quality' is not DC 15, it's anything more then DC 10 that a normal person cannot reliably do, and higher DC to make indicates a higher quality item.
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The wizard needs only invest in a headband of int that gives him the Craft Armor skill. 4000 gp. He doesn't need to make ANY personal investment above and beyond that. After speed-producing a few sets of armor, he can invest in Pearls to increase his spells/day and increase his capacity, and basically only cost himself personally a level 5 slot.
The market assumes that you can sell anything you make to a middleman for half normal value. However, this is an NPC and a smith, and he can sell things for full value when people come calling. He can make a suit of full plate a day, 31x faster then another NPC smith who also has a +15 skill check, a master of his trade.
In short, one wizard casting one Fabricate a day does more work then 30 master smiths as far as producing new goods go. If you include masterwork in the ability of Fabricate, that is now 33x better. If you include adamantine armor, it is now 347x faster (yes, it's going to take 347 days for a +15 check to make adamantine full plate).
The money he earns over time is going to be much, much greater then a dragon hoard, and he doesn't have to worry about being eaten by a dragon. While assassins might be a threat, remember he's a wizard, he's got all his other slots available, and he has a LOT of money he can invest into his defenses.
After all, selling 30 suits of adamantine full plate at full market value is going to net him 330,000 gp net profit. That's one month of work. He can buy a LOT of stuff with that much money, including someone with Skill Focus (diplomacy & Bluff) to sell stuff for him and take a small cut or wage.
330,000 gp is the WBL of a level 18 character. This NPC will be able to gear out to the NINES. I pity the assassin who comes after his CR 9 ass.
And really, why would any wizard who could do so not follow the exact same path? You need one spell, one headband, and a month, and you are SET FOR LIFE.
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Now, let's abide by the rules and just go with full plate.
At 1500 gp a pop, and selling to a middleman for 750 gp, the wizard will profit 250 gp per spell.
That's still 7500 gp/month for casting one spell a day. That's an extraordinary amount of income.
and yet, he can probably cast teleport 1/day for someone who wants to travel, and make more money charging them for the spell. A 9th level spell generally runs 450 gp/casting, right?
The difference is that spells cast that others pay for are reliant on others wanting them. If nobody wants you to teleport them, you make no money.
Fabricate is PRODUCTION. You are guaranteed to make money as long as someone, anytime, wants to buy your product, and the rules say you can always sell at half full price. You are NEVER going to waste the spell. Sure, you can make MORE money, per spell, by teleporting...but Fabricate will be easy, steady money, and one year of production at 7500 gp/month is more money then an NPC level 9 has for WBL (90,000 gp!).
and you know what? It doesn't require you slaving away making a scroll of Fly for some fool adventurer for eight hours, either. Cast the spell, done, profit.
Fabricate is intensely lucrative, and a complete economy breaker as written. If it can do masterwork and special materials, Gods help your sense of realism being completely suspended.
Wizards are not stupid. In our own world, the smart math guys stopped becoming engineers and computer designers and started becoming high frequency traders and finance guys, because that was where the money is. A wizard will Fabricate an expensive item, sell it, and have the rest of his day free to do what he pleases with his lucrative and steady income, leaving it to lower level wizards to make the scrolls and take orders for magic items.
===Aelryinth
I share Aelryinth's viewpoint that there are no and cannot be any non-masterwork special material armors. I believe this is both RAW and RAI. However, I do not think that necessarily means that the rules require you to craft them as masterwork items; another interpretation that is possible (but unlikely) is that they have masterworkiness as a special ability but are no harder to craft than normal armors.
I would say that one interpretation of Fabricate's "high degree of craftsmanship" clause would be looking at the craft skill, which lists:
"High-quality item (bell) DC 15"
Of course this is just one possible interpretation of many, but if it comes up in my games, that's what I'll go with.
So, as it's vague and much open to interpretation, these are how I'll use the rules:
- Stuff with DC <15 doesn't require check.
- Stuff with DC 15+ requires check.
- Items that require several checks (including masterwork items) cannot be crafted with the spell.
So, as it's vague and much open to interpretation, these are how I'll use the rules:
- Stuff with DC <15 doesn't require check.
- Stuff with DC 15+ requires check.
- Items that require several checks (including masterwork items) cannot be crafted with the spell.
So a greatclub, which is really nothing more then a big stick, is a high-quality item? It has a craft DC of 15.
A net, which can be made by any fisherman, is a high-quality item? It has a DC of 18.A sap, which is generally nothing more then lead shot in a leather pouch, is a high-quality item? Its a DC 15 to craft.
There is no language in Fabricate that references allowing you to make a check for masterwork purposes.
Nor is there any language in the fabricate spell that DOESN'T allow you to make the check for masterwork.
You cannot cast two fabricate spells at the same time, the same way you cannot cast ANY two spells at the same time. Fabricate makes and finishes an item. A Masterwork crafting check is made DURING the process of creation, not afterwards.
You are kind of going back and forth on how you are saying masterwork creation works. You say that it is like crafting 2 separate items. Now you are saying that yes, it is like 2 items but it happens concurrently. If I make a metal club, which does not need a check to make, and I want to make it masterwork while I am crafting, why can't I use fabricate for the masterwork portion? There is no such restriction.
There is nothing in Fabricate that allows you to make a normal item a masterwork item.
Agreed, that's a different spell.
If you take normal plate mail, and use Fabricate on it, it counts as raw materials for another suit of plate mail. That's how the spell works. It doesn't work any other way.
Conversely, if you make a masterwork plate mail, and cast fabricate, since the materials are masterwork...why wouldn't the fabricated ones be?
Masterwork transformation allows you to make a normal item masterwork. Fabricate does not have the Masterwork Transformation language as a part of the spell. It cannot do that. It allows you to take raw materials, make ONE crafting check, and get a completed item in seconds.
But what if the materials are already masterwork?
'Low quality items not requiring a check' means that there are items out there that are of so low difficulty to make, you don't need to make a skill check. A torch. Poles. A club. Rough rope. Normal candles. A crude dagger or hand axe. A crude raft.
This is a houserule. I see no such language in RAW. Now I am with you on this, to a degree. Fabricate allows you to mass produce these without a check. But it specifically calls out needing to make a check for higher quality items, which if low quality is crude, then high quality would be masterwork. By definition almost.
High quality items are those that have a DC higher then 10, meaning you can only take 10 with skill ranks in the skill.
Again, where is this in the RAW? This sounds like something that it was back in the old days or maybe something that's been assumed.
'High Quality' is not DC 15, it's anything more then DC 10 that a normal person cannot reliably do, and higher DC to make indicates a higher quality item.
DC 10 would mean anyone could take their time and reliably do it. DC 15 on the other hand would require some ranks. But again, this isn't defined in RAW that I can see.
I think we're reading waaaaaay too much into this. High quality isn't synonymous with but is at least partly interchangeable with masterwork as a definition. Fabricate fabricates items based on materials given it. If I use materials that were pieces of a masterwork plate mail, why wouldn't the fabricated new set be masterwork?
@Jeraa and Pendin Fust : +1
There are 4 things that are of "high quality" (or better) amongst the rules :
- Masterwork weapons and armor (whatever the material, a masterwork weapon is "a finely crafted version of a normal weapon", by the rules)
- Masterwork tools and skill kits (they are of better quality than standard items, so we can assume they are of "High quality")
- Arts [artwork, jewelry, gemstones, sculptures, ...] and other items of great craftsmanship [bells, locks, masterwork manacles, ...] (in the GM part of the rules, some of them are listed as "High quality", and it's the only part of the game it is written)
- Magic items (but outside the range of Fabricate, so let's ignore that part)
By those examples I provided above, I would assume that an Adamantine full plate would need a check, and that will be certainly a DC 20 craft (armor) check. Not because of the material by itself, but because it will be Masterwork.
It doesn't need a second check, contrary to normal Crafting, you only make a check when the item you're "fabricating" is of High Craftsmanship (not when its beyond low craftsmanship, the difference is great between the two).
Fabricate makes and finishes an item. A Masterwork crafting check is made DURING the process of creation, not afterwards.
The crafting rules themselves state: "To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item."
Why are you not able to use fabricate for the "standard item" and your Craft(Armor) check for the "masterwork component"?
The crafting rules themselves state: "To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item."Why are you not able to use fabricate for the "standard item" and your Craft(Armor) check for the "masterwork component"?
The masterwork component is actually abstract. It's not literally a separate thing to be made, rather, it represents the extra materials and effort going into making the standard item masterwork and is part and parcel of the crafting of the item. This is why I don't necessarily have a problem with using a fabricate spell to make a masterwork item - I just require skill checks for quite a bit more than that as well.
The masterwork component is actually abstract. It's not literally a separate thing to be made, rather, it represents the extra materials and effort going into making the standard item masterwork and is part and parcel of the crafting of the item. This is why I don't necessarily have a problem with using a fabricate spell to make a masterwork item - I just require skill checks for quite a bit more than that as well.
Sure, its abstract. The rules state to treat it as a separate item. So that's what we need to do.
So, as it's vague and much open to interpretation, these are how I'll use the rules:
- Stuff with DC <15 doesn't require check.
- Stuff with DC 15+ requires check.
- Items that require several checks (including masterwork items) cannot be crafted with the spell.So a greatclub, which is really nothing more then a big stick, is a high-quality item? It has a craft DC of 15.
A net, which can be made by any fisherman, is a high-quality item? It has a DC of 18.
A sap, which is generally nothing more then lead shot in a leather pouch, is a high-quality item? Its a DC 15 to craft.
Well, in my games greatclub is a simple weapon (because who the frakk made _that_ martial? :S) so that's not an issue in my home games. And the others, of course there are exceptions, and if a player asked to fabricate a sap I'd say nothing against it.
No ruling ever is perfect - setting the limit at DC18 would mean objects clearly denoted as "high quality" wouldn't be treated as such. 15 seems a good average.
The game itself defines high-quality items as having DC15, so that part's also not really on me.
@Jeraa and Pendin Fust : +1
There are 4 things that are of "high quality" (or better) amongst the rules :
- Masterwork weapons and armor (whatever the material, a masterwork weapon is "a finely crafted version of a normal weapon", by the rules)
- Masterwork tools and skill kits (they are of better quality than standard items, so we can assume they are of "High quality")
- Arts [artwork, jewelry, gemstones, sculptures, ...] and other items of great craftsmanship [bells, locks, masterwork manacles, ...] (in the GM part of the rules, some of them are listed as "High quality", and it's the only part of the game it is written)
- Magic items (but outside the range of Fabricate, so let's ignore that part)
The Craft skills specifically says high-quality items take a DC 15 to craft, exemplifying with a bell. So a bell is definately a high-quality item.
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The Craft skills specifically says high-quality items take a DC 15 to craft, exemplifying with a bell. So a bell is definately a high-quality item.@Jeraa and Pendin Fust : +1
There are 4 things that are of "high quality" (or better) amongst the rules :
- Masterwork weapons and armor (whatever the material, a masterwork weapon is "a finely crafted version of a normal weapon", by the rules)
- Masterwork tools and skill kits (they are of better quality than standard items, so we can assume they are of "High quality")
- Arts [artwork, jewelry, gemstones, sculptures, ...] and other items of great craftsmanship [bells, locks, masterwork manacles, ...] (in the GM part of the rules, some of them are listed as "High quality", and it's the only part of the game it is written)
- Magic items (but outside the range of Fabricate, so let's ignore that part)
I bolded the part you missed.
Oddly enough, I find myself neutral on the position of whether masterwork items can be generated by fabricate: but I do have a question for those who are saying the RaW prevent it:
If a wizard casts fabricate on a pile of mithral bars (or an adamantite chain, or whatever) and compels it into the shape of armor, what happens? Are the materials immune, because they can't turn into armor without becoming "masterwork" armor? Or do they form armor that - although made of the special material - has the stats of ordinary armor of the type specified, since the benefits of the special material require masterwork status? Will the adamantite become softer to avoid providing DR? Will the mithral become heavier to avoid being as good as 'real' mithral armor?
I'm not trying to argue in favor of fabricate granting masterwork status, I swear: I'm just wondering how things work out in-game if the GM rules that it can't.
I think the result should be the same as someone crafting it non-masterwork in the regular way, regardless of how it's interpreted.
I think there are two possible interpretations of this when it comes to the rules; either, being masterwork is an ability of special material armors or you cannot craft special material armors unless you craft them as masterwork.
In the first interpretation, crafting mithril armor do not require any masterwork check and stays at a DC of 10+AC; it isn't harder to craft than regular armor, just takes more time.
- In this case, fabricate could do it just fine.
In the second interpretation, mithril cannot be crafted unless crafted as masterwork. In that case, if you cannot craft the item of masterwork quality you aren't skilled enough to make it into useful armor; if you ask a random teenager to build you a formula 1 car, the teenager might be able to make something that kinda looks like a car, but won't be able to make it useful even as a regular car, much less a F1.
- In this case, fabricate will cause the metal to warp into something that kinda looks like armor, but is too bent and misfitted to be of use to anyone.
It's old, but relevant. Apparently SKR doesn't have a problem with masterwork items being created by Fabricate.SKR response to fabricate questions Copied relevant bits here for convenience.
Irranshalee wrote:
But this still does not explain: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." Apparently it can be magical,
SKR wrote:
The spell says it can't create or transmute magical things. You can't cast the spell on a pile of steel and instantaneously create a stack of +1 longswords. But you can create a stack of masterwork longswords, which you hand to someone with the CMAaA feat to craft into magic weapons.Irranshalee wrote:
but can it be a full plate since full plate takes cloth, leather, and armor?
SKR wrote:
The spell says "material of one sort." Cloth, leather, and metal are three different materials. I'm a lenient GM and would probably let you make a suit of full plate out of the component materials, but as written the spell doesn't let you do that.Everything you've asked about is either answered in the spell description, or answered because there's nothing in the spell description to indicate what you're implying in your interpretation of the spell.
edited for formatting
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Oddly enough, I find myself neutral on the position of whether masterwork items can be generated by fabricate: but I do have a question for those who are saying the RaW prevent it:
If a wizard casts fabricate on a pile of mithral bars (or an adamantite chain, or whatever) and compels it into the shape of armor, what happens? Are the materials immune, because they can't turn into armor without becoming "masterwork" armor? Or do they form armor that - although made of the special material - has the stats of ordinary armor of the type specified, since the benefits of the special material require masterwork status? Will the adamantite become softer to avoid providing DR? Will the mithral become heavier to avoid being as good as 'real' mithral armor?
I'm not trying to argue in favor of fabricate granting masterwork status, I swear: I'm just wondering how things work out in-game if the GM rules that it can't.
I'm perfectly happy with 'nothing happens'. The spell fizzles. *shrug*.
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It's old, but relevant. Apparently SKR doesn't have a problem with masterwork items being created by Fabricate.SKR response to fabricate questions Copied relevant bits here for convenience.edited for formatting
Irranshalee wrote:
But this still does not explain: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." Apparently it can be magical,
SKR wrote:
The spell says it can't create or transmute magical things. You can't cast the spell on a pile of steel and instantaneously create a stack of +1 longswords. But you can create a stack of masterwork longswords, which you hand to someone with the CMAaA feat to craft into magic weapons.Irranshalee wrote:
but can it be a full plate since full plate takes cloth, leather, and armor?
SKR wrote:
The spell says "material of one sort." Cloth, leather, and metal are three different materials. I'm a lenient GM and would probably let you make a suit of full plate out of the component materials, but as written the spell doesn't let you do that.Everything you've asked about is either answered in the spell description, or answered because there's nothing in the spell description to indicate what you're implying in your interpretation of the spell.
Cool, he's saying he's lenient, and that's what he'd allow. I doubt he's thought it through to the logical conclusion.
I would point out that he said he's lenient in regard to making armor from multiple materials. He did not say he was lenient about making masterwork longswords to be crafted into magic weapons.
This thread devolved from crafting being slow to not being able to craft masterwork items with Fabricate. But according to his post, not only CAN you do it, you can create a stack of them. He may not have thought about campaign world ramifications, but there is no questioning WHAT was written. And if you don't want to take his word for it, what would you take?
As to the original topic, yes mundane crafting is slow. When you want something done fast pay a wizard.
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Cool, he's saying he's lenient, and that's what he'd allow. I doubt he's thought it through to the logical conclusion.
The only logical conclusion is that there's no hard and fast rule, because the rules text employs fuzzy definitions without giving numbers or limitations.
My own 'logical' interpretation of "articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship" (the ones needing a check) is, that anything anyone can craft with some patience, without even a single skill point spent on the craft in question, can definitely not be something requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
A quick bump in speed for crafting can be gained by using the Amazing Tools of Manufacture. However they in of themselves have a few FAQ issues as well to sort out.
There's a thread for the FAQ in the rules section for the item, found here. As for the item, it provides a +4 circumstance bonus, and allows you to craft up to 2,000 gp a day in one hours time.
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High quality items are those that have a DC higher then 10
Can you cite the source that states DC 10 is high quality?
'High Quality' is not DC 15
As per the craft rules, a high quality item has a DC 15. This is the only source that I have seen that specifically calls out High Quality and includes a DC. I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I haven't seen them.
As I said before, you've pointed out on a few occasions that any interpretation other than your own is a house rule, yet you aren't giving any credible source for this reason.
For what it's worth...I agree with part of your interpretation of Fabricate. You can't cast it twice for the same item. You can't use it to make a normal item into a masterwork item (i.e. a longsword into a masterwork longsword). I don't see anything in the spell description that denies ANY masterwork item from being created however.
Cool, he's saying he's lenient, and that's what he'd allow. I doubt he's thought it through to the logical conclusion.
Are you saying that since the "logical conclusion" is that Fabricate can ruin an economy that means the rules state it can't create Masterwork items? That's kind of flawed. Balance issues shouldn't factor into a strict interpretation of the rules...they should factor into house ruling the crap out of it so the player wizard doesn't make a fortune.
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As per the craft rules, a high quality item has a DC 15. This is the only source that I have seen that specifically calls out High Quality and includes a DC. I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I haven't seen them.
While the Craft skill calls out high quality items as bells. The Fabricate spell only states: "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
High-quality and high degree of craftsmanship are not the same terms, and therefore up to the GM to define whether they are the same thing.
The GM could also decide that "high degree of craftsmanship" means masterwork, or that it means its own thing that has no relevant application to the rules beyond being descriptive of the item crafted.
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High quality items are those that have a DC higher then 10Can you cite the source that states DC 10 is high quality?
'High Quality' is not DC 15As per the craft rules, a high quality item has a DC 15. This is the only source that I have seen that specifically calls out High Quality and includes a DC. I'm not saying there aren't others, just that I haven't seen them.
As I said before, you've pointed out on a few occasions that any interpretation other than your own is a house rule, yet you aren't giving any credible source for this reason.
For what it's worth...I agree with part of your interpretation of Fabricate. You can't cast it twice for the same item. You can't use it to make a normal item into a masterwork item (i.e. a longsword into a masterwork longsword). I don't see anything in the spell description that denies ANY masterwork item from being created however.
Cool, he's saying he's lenient, and that's what he'd allow. I doubt he's thought it through to the logical conclusion.Are you saying that since the "logical conclusion" is that Fabricate can ruin an economy that means the rules state it can't create Masterwork items? That's kind of flawed. Balance issues shouldn't factor into a strict interpretation of the rules...they should factor into house ruling the crap out of it so the player wizard doesn't make a fortune.
The rules don't offer a straightforward strict interpretation, or this thread would be very short. I prefer to err on the side of logic, planning on having a gaming world that has the sort of economy I want it to have...not some broken, non explicit wording that destroys it.
The RAW rule allows to create any items, without restrictions for Masterwork (while the restriction for magic items is precised).
The RAW allows for any non-magical item to be "fabricated". No limits.
The facts that some people are not satisfied with that for their world economy or whatever does not change RAW.
You can houserule it at your table as you see fit, but don't make statements based on houserules and make it as it would be "RAW".
It's not.
If some of you are not convinced, I re-link the quotation from SKR that appeared above in the page :
HERE
He says EXPLICITLY that you can create masterwork [for the quality] swords [you can even create more than one with each casting].
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The RAW rule allows to create any items, without restrictions for Masterwork (while the restriction for magic items is precised).
The RAW allows for any non-magical item to be "fabricated". No limits.
The facts that some people are not satisfied with that for their world economy or whatever does not change RAW.
You can houserule it at your table as you see fit, but don't make statements based on houserules and make it as it would be "RAW".
It's not.If some of you are not convinced, I re-link the quotation from SKR that appeared above in the page :
HEREHe says EXPLICITLY that you can create masterwork [for the quality] swords [you can even create more than one with each casting].
...but not as an official statement.
The craft rules, at least when it boils down to materials, are clearly retarded.
For instance, a simple task (say DC 12) of melting down a one pound of silver into a mold to shape a cube of pure silver will take approximately 2 days for an Expert 1 with Craft + 5, since an average (taking 10) of DC 12 * 15 = 180 sp per week can be made, which is about 7 * (50/180) = 1,944... days of work.
The same work in gold would little over 19 days (!), since 7 * (500/180) = 19,444...
This is the main problem with the Craft rules. Not that it takes a lot of time, but that more expensive materials takes longer to craft (see above).
In reality, melting gold or silver and pouring it to a mold to cold, takes more or less the same amount of time.
The solution would be to standardize general time frames for the most common items based upon logic and real world experiences, not on the cost of said items in silver pieces, also since such prices can be a subjective matter (like paintings).
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The craft rules, at least when it boils down to materials, are clearly retarded.
For instance, a simple task (say DC 12) of melting down a one pound of silver into a mold to shape a cube of pure silver will take approximately 2 days for an Expert 1 with Craft + 5, since an average (taking 10) of DC 12 * 15 = 180 sp per week can be made, which is about 7 * (50/180) = 1,944... days of work.
The same work in gold would little over 19 days (!), since 7 * (500/180) = 19,444...
This is the main problem with the Craft rules. Not that it takes a lot of time, but that more expensive materials takes longer to craft (see above).
In reality, melting gold or silver and pouring it to a mold to cold, takes more or less the same amount of time.
The solution would be to standardize general time frames for the most common items based upon logic and real world experiences, not on the cost of said items in silver pieces, also since such prices can be a subjective matter (like paintings).
...but that's not crafting. It doesn't even fall under the crafting rules. That's like pouring ingots. *shrug*.
Now...you do have a good point about the difference between silver and gold. It really shouldn't matter.
...but that's not crafting. It doesn't even fall under the crafting rules. That's like pouring ingots. *shrug*.
The example is chosen for comparison. You could as easily have taken a chiseled spoon, a small sculpture or what have you.
The factor ten for copper vs. silver vs. gold makes it a hundred times more time-consuming to craft a spoon out of gold than out of copper.
That is the major point.
Now, take that to art for instance, which is a subjective matter. A famous artist's work can be worth enormous amounts of money. If such an artist (in Golarion) paints a blue canvas and dots three black spots and a red line (like Mirot) it is still worth tremendous amounts of gold pieces. Compaired to a person painting a cathedral in Michelangelo-style but without the fame or celebrity as the former artist, it would cost much, much less.
The first painting can be done in minutes. The former can take months or even years.
But the crafting rules indicates that the former easily made painting takes a lot more time than the cathedral frescoes, just because of the fact that crafting is linked to the price of the crafted item.
Morhin,
I think the crafting rules were designed around Worth of Item to craft, to build an inherent limit for how much wealth PCs could create. As was shown before, when PCs can reduce the time required from months to rounds, it is fairly trivial for them to inflate their worth.
I don't think it is expected that the NPCs of the world utilize the same crafting rules for creating items. I highly doubt they expected a GM to design their town, roll for the items available, designate who would make them, and then have them all make crafting rolls to see how many +1 longswords and maces that blacksmith has made yet. They just said "roll on the table and that is what is available".
...but that's not crafting. It doesn't even fall under the crafting rules. That's like pouring ingots. *shrug*.
The example is chosen for comparison. You could as easily have taken a chiseled spoon, a small sculpture or what have you.
The factor ten for copper vs. silver vs. gold makes it a hundred times more time-consuming to craft a spoon out of gold than out of copper.
That is the major point.
Now, take that to art for instance, which is a subjective matter. A famous artist's work can be worth enormous amounts of money. If such an artist (in Golarion) paints a blue canvas and dots three black spots and a red line (like Mirot) it is still worth tremendous amounts of gold pieces. Compaired to a person painting a cathedral in Michelangelo-style but without the fame or celebrity as the former artist, it would cost much, much less.
The first painting can be done in minutes. The former can take months or even years.
But the crafting rules indicates that the former easily made painting takes a lot more time than the cathedral frescoes, just because of the fact that crafting is linked to the price of the crafted item.
You're indeed right about crafting skill ruling, and the reason why.
Art often falls under Performance rules, which are entirely based on the Charisma of the maker, as opposed to a crafting check. The example given is clearly the price given because of the fame of the artist and his 'expression' of art, not for his technical skill.
There is no rule that says DC 15 is the breakpoint for high quality. Nor is there a rule that says DC9 is the breakpoint for low quality. We do know that DC 10 is average quality, because it's the average. And a properly made greatclub, like a tetsudo, is much more then a straight branch hacked off and given to a thug.
There is no such thing as masterwork raw materials. If you cast Fabricate on a suit of masterwork armor, you get a normal suit of plate from the raw materials, because that is what the spell does.
A Masterwork item has to be declared that you are making it. You can't make an item, or buy an item, and then declare you are going to make it masterwork. You can only do it with a spell.
as for Fabricate able to make some masterwork...there is a spell that makes stuff masterwork. Spells do exactly what they say they do, and trying to infer they do more is a common tactic of those seeking loopholes. Fabricate doesn't make things masterwork because it doesn't say it makes things masterwork...if it did, it would have the language in it. It makes normally crafted items and uses a single skill check to do it.
Making a masterwork item requires a crafting check and a check for masterwork concurrently. The item is not finished until both are made. If you fail at either one, you fail at making the entire item, you are not left with a normal item as a 'consolation prize'.
Limitations on what magic can and cannot do are all part of the rules. Fabricate has its limits. They only marginally shut down the true power of the spell.
==Aelryinth
I remember reading somewhere that you COULD stack the +10 DC multiple times.
I don't recall where though.
Art often falls under Performance rules, which are entirely based on the Charisma of the maker, as opposed to a crafting check.
Except that typical art forms such as painting and sculpting are crafts and not performances, at least according to the Pathfinder rules. See the Craft skill (emphasis mine):
"The most common Craft skills are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons."
I do not believe you can Charisma-produce a painting (at least not I, and I am an artist).
The example given is clearly the price given because of the fame of the artist and his 'expression' of art, not for his technical skill.
This I could actually see full sense in, weren't it for the fact that Pathfinder itself doesn't (at least not in the rules).
If the design of the Craft skill for Pathfinder (or more precisely the D&D 3.0-3.5 game) was about limiting money-exploding phenomena for the PCs, then why include it at all?
Especially since the new Ultimate Equipment book, introduces even more shenanigans through gemcutting and jewelry where uncut gems are doubled (!) in value when cut, and inflated even more in price when set into jewelry (see the back pages).
There is no masterwork involved, so fabricate can create a stupid amount of fortune through processing gemstones and implode the economy of both the setting and the system, which when taking the later, it was implied, should be hindered by factoring in non-logical time amounts for crafting by coupling time taken to money value in the first place.
The only salvageable solution, is to standardize crafting time, decouple it from price values, which isn't to say that it shouldn't take a long time to build, say a full plate, but instead to make a gold item that do not take a hundred times more time than the very same item made in copper.
And, in any case, it is best to totally eliminate fabricate from the system, if the system is set to hinder PCs from gaining wealth through crafting. That spell is even more wrong than wall of salt and wall of iron was in former editions of D&D.
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...but that's not crafting. It doesn't even fall under the crafting rules. That's like pouring ingots. *shrug*.
The example is chosen for comparison. You could as easily have taken a chiseled spoon, a small sculpture or what have you.
The factor ten for copper vs. silver vs. gold makes it a hundred times more time-consuming to craft a spoon out of gold than out of copper.
That is the major point.
Now, take that to art for instance, which is a subjective matter. A famous artist's work can be worth enormous amounts of money. If such an artist (in Golarion) paints a blue canvas and dots three black spots and a red line (like Mirot) it is still worth tremendous amounts of gold pieces. Compaired to a person painting a cathedral in Michelangelo-style but without the fame or celebrity as the former artist, it would cost much, much less.
The first painting can be done in minutes. The former can take months or even years.
But the crafting rules indicates that the former easily made painting takes a lot more time than the cathedral frescoes, just because of the fact that crafting is linked to the price of the crafted item.
Yes, I do agree with that point. The materials...in a case like that...shouldn't matter at all.
I remember reading somewhere that you COULD stack the +10 DC multiple times.
I don't recall where though.
You can stack the +10 DC to craft faster. It does not make the item any better, just helps you craft faster.
There's nothign in the rules to differentiate between an Item made with a Craft DC of 40 and 20, for prices or anything. All the higher DC does is help you craft faster, not pricier.
Types of painting can be interpreted as fashion, and definitely performance art of a sort. Really, the only difference between expensive jewelry and cheap is the time required to make it.
And I will say that truly expensive gemstones can take a very, very long time to properly cut. read up on gemstones and some of the truly great diamonds that have been cut over time...it can easily take months and months to properly tap apart, break down, and cut some of the legendary diamonds, let alone set them into jewelry.
==Aelryinth