Is Craft really that slow?


Rules Questions

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I believe you can keep adding 10 to increase speed.

You can also take 10.

there are limits to being aided. Also, again, the feat cooperative crafting. cuts time in half

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

It also means that if you make a wooden shield, it's worse then a metal shield. And a rope of hemp is of different quality then a rope of silk. Don't go reading extraordinary materials into common crafting. Extraordinary materials have their own rules.

Masterwork and higher quality items are not the same thing. Full plate is higher quality then plate mail, even without having to be masterwork, and plate is higher quality then chain.

That's all fluff stuff.

The spell clearly allows only one Craft check. Masterwork clearly calls for two. And there are certain items that must be forged as masterwork, and cannot be made so after the fact, and adamantine armor is one of them.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

It also means that if you make a wooden shield, it's worse then a metal shield. And a rope of hemp is of different quality then a rope of silk. Don't go reading extraordinary materials into common crafting. Extraordinary materials have their own rules.

Masterwork and higher quality items are not the same thing. Full plate is higher quality then plate mail, even without having to be masterwork, and plate is higher quality then chain.

That's all fluff stuff.

The spell clearly allows only one Craft check. Masterwork clearly calls for two. And there are certain items that must be forged as masterwork, and cannot be made so after the fact, and adamantine armor is one of them.

==Aelryinth

"Create Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield, see Equipment for the price of other masterwork tools) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials."

Why can fabricate not be used for the initial craft check, and the craft skill be used for the masterwork component check? Alternately, why can't 2 fabricate spells be used to cover both checks? The "masterwork component" is treated as a separate item after all.


Pendin Fust wrote:
PRD - Masterwork wrote:


A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
PRD - Fabricate wrote:


You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

I dunno...it certainly looks to me like they are referring to same thing.

Says right in the masterwork weapon section:

PRD wrote:
You can't add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill).

The Craft skill calls this out specifically:

PRD wrote:
In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved. You must still make an appropriate Craft check when using the spell to make articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Now I get what you are saying that you'd have to choose which thing you use fabricate on...the item or the masterwork component...but why is masterwork different than "high degree of craftsmanship".

Dictionary definition of masterwork: "an outstanding work, achievement, or performance". Sounds like something that is "high degree of craftsmanship" to me.

This is my own interpretation and I can't see how anyone could see it otherwise.

You don't even need a Craft Check unless it's masterwork.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

?? I don't follow you.

To make anything with Fabricate, you have to make a craft check or the spell fails to spin your raw materials together properly. To make anything masterwork, you have to make an additional check WHILE YOU ARE MAKING THE ITEM...but Fabricate does not allow you to do this. It's treated as two seperate items, but the item isn't finished until both are done. Fabricate automatically completes the item, which doesn't allow for masterwork to even be attempted. Ergo, no adamantine armor.

And you can't cast two Fabricate spells at the same time the same way you can't cast two fireballs at the same time. Casting them one after the other doesn't work. Fabricate also can't be used to add Masterwork to an item after it's made...there's a seperate spell for that.

==Aelryinth


Ok, lets go with this. Say you are trying to craft a masterwork spear. You successfully make your checks to craft the spear part of the crafting. You fail the check for masterwork by more than 5. You decide to give up on it, because your craft still isn't high enough. What do you have at this point? A spear? Nothing? Raw materials that are "waiting" for a "masterwork component" to be crafted to them that will suddenly become a masterwork spear when that is done?

"You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."

If your item is not requiring a high degree of craftsmanship, you do not need to make a check. Period.

Also, just because adamantine says, "Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below." It would not force the PC to craft it as masterwork would it? If they go out, and buy the actual adamantine, they now own it. They can now decide to craft it into a mundane normal suite of full-plate could they not? Could a crafting wizard then not decide to fabricate it to full-plate, and then masterwork transformation it?

I think the sentence is more descriptive, saying that normal NPC's of the world will not waste adamantine on non-masterwork items so any for sale would be Masterworked already. Not that a PC is incapable of crafting adamantine into something not masterworked.

An alternate reading, is that when crafting adamantine armor, because the cost is already included in the price, there is no secondary check for masterwork. Either you succeed with the full price, and create MW adamatine armor, or you fail (or really fail and ruin half the components.)


I would like to point out that adamantine doesn't say it must beade masterwork. It's masterwork by virtue of being adamantine.

Cost Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given.


Aelryinth wrote:

It also means that if you make a wooden shield, it's worse then a metal shield. And a rope of hemp is of different quality then a rope of silk. Don't go reading extraordinary materials into common crafting. Extraordinary materials have their own rules.

Masterwork and higher quality items are not the same thing. Full plate is higher quality then plate mail, even without having to be masterwork, and plate is higher quality then chain.

That's all fluff stuff.

The spell clearly allows only one Craft check. Masterwork clearly calls for two. And there are certain items that must be forged as masterwork, and cannot be made so after the fact, and adamantine armor is one of them.

==Aelryinth

You have it the wrong way around. Full plate being of a higher quality than chain mail is fluff you just made up. Masterwork is actually referred to as a quality in the rules.

Also, the phrase "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship" is one that requires interpretation, because there's no rules definition of "a high degree of craftsmanship".

Anything that can potentially be crafted by any random person picking up a hammer, such as a chain shirt for example, obviously doesn't require a "high degree of craftsmanship". Thus, no crafting check would be necessary, as allowed by the crafting rules. ("In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved.") That frees up the one check allowed by the Fabricate spell for covering the check required to make a masterwork item.


Okay lets go by the text line by line. I feel that's the best way to do this:

Quote:
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.

Whole point of the spell, make stuff out of other stuff.

Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell.

This section calls out what cannot be made via the spell. No people or magic items, got it. Strange they wouldn't call out masterwork items if that was the intent.

Quote:
The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication.

Ah so you can make better items out of better materials and crappy items out of crappy materials got it. So far I don't see anything that excludes masterwork materials, in fact it infers that masterwork materials(adamantine) would commensurate masterwork items.

Quote:
If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

Okay cool, not super important for the topic at hand.

Quote:
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Okay, so I make an appropriate craft check for the level of craftsmanship. So, if I'm making a Masterwork Item, wouldn't the appropriate check be the Craft 20 check for Masterwork? Or better yet, in what situation do you think you wouldn't make a check? Cause it only says you have to make a check if it's a "high degree of craftsmanship".

Quote:
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.

Okay, cool, casting time. Straight forward.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

What part of 'always of masterwork quality' is unclear? The level of skill required to work adamantine is such that any armor made of adamantine is going to be masterwork, or you are going to fail at making usable armor...the scale is simply set that high. What you are proposing is a house rule, nothing more and nothing less.

Furthermore, it is a House Rule that any wizard could use to absolutely destroy your economy. Consider that every day a 9th level wizard could walk outside, cast Fabricate from his 4500 gp of raw components, make 13,500 gp worth of adamantine full plate, and profit 9,000 gp for casting one spell.

Every day. It's bad enough he can spend 500 gp and get 1500 gp of full plate instantly...1000 gp/day profit for casting one spell and waiting for some guy to come along who wants to equip all his soldiers. Who needs to go adventuring?

If you try to make a masterwork quality spear and fail, you have a non-functional item. You don't get to 'come up short' and walk off with a spear. You goofed, and the spear is unusuable. Them's is the rules. YOu shoot for the best and fail, you start over.

==Aelryinth


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Forseti wrote:

.

Also, the phrase "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship" is one that requires interpretation, because there's no rules definition of "a high degree of craftsmanship. Anything that can potentially be crafted by any random person picking up a hammer, such as a chain shirt for example, obviously doesn't requite a "high degree of craftsmanship". Thus, no crafting check would be necessary, as allowed by the crafting rules. ("In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved.") That frees up the one check allowed by the Fabricate spell for covering the check required to make a masterwork item.

A chain shirt doesn't require a high degree of craftsmanship? My interpretation would be that it does. Something that wouldn't might be sheets of metal, horseshoes, maces, or crowbars rather than armor or swords, basic bookshelves or tables rather than glide rockers or puzzle boxes.


Aelryinth, the quote is, "Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below."

Not adamantine must be masterwork. Just that it is so EXPENSIVE everyone makes masterwork stuff with it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

And yet, there's that 'always' in there. Which seems to imply that you don't have a choice, no? Which means either it's so difficult to work that you make it masterwork or don't make it at all, or it's so pricey, and the results so good, that it's going to have to be masterwork quality simply because of what it is.

In either direction, you don't have a choice with 'always'.

==Aelryinth


Bill Dunn wrote:
A chain shirt doesn't require a high degree of craftsmanship? My interpretation would be that it does. Something that wouldn't might be sheets of metal, horseshoes, maces, or crowbars rather than armor or swords, basic bookshelves or tables rather than glide rockers or puzzle boxes.

A chain shirt only requires DC 14 checks. Practically anyone can make one, given some patience.

Since most people included in "practically anyone" aren't the sort of people capable of a high degree of craftsmanship, this item that all of them could create can obviously not be an item requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Of course, this just means that the DC to craft a chain shirt is too low to make sense when dealing with fuzzy turns of phrase in related rules such as those for the Fabricate spell. Phrases like "high degree of craftsmanship" are pretty useless if you want hard and fast rules.


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Aelryinth wrote:

Furthermore, it is a House Rule that any wizard could use to absolutely destroy your economy. Consider that every day a 9th level wizard could walk outside, cast Fabricate from his 4500 gp of raw components, make 13,500 gp worth of adamantine full plate, and profit 9,000 gp for casting one spell.

Every day. It's bad enough he can spend 500 gp and get 1500 gp of full plate instantly...1000 gp/day profit for casting one spell and waiting for some guy to come along who wants to equip all his soldiers. Who needs to go adventuring?

I disagree with your interpretation.

How exactly does he do this? The material cost is: the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created which means it doesn't save you any money to craft these items, an item still costs 1/3 to make. Unless your DM lets you break the rules and sell for more than 1/2 price, you only make 1/6th price profit. And since you can't increase the margins by making magical goods, it's not game breaking.

And more importantly, it's not something that would happen all the time even with NPCs. These materials are precious, once used up they'd be gone. Sure, the NPC wizard with an armory shop flooded the economy with a bunch of Mithral armors, make a good junk of change, they'll be out of the stuff. The reason it costs so much is that it's hard to come by. There won't be a constant inflow of it forever.


Ok, so because they are always masterwork, and the cost is already included, there is no secondary check to make them masterwork, as the cost was already included in the initial crafting check.

Which way do you think it works?

Full-plate: 1,500gp
Adamantine: 15,000gp
Subtract cost of masterwork: -150gp
Total: 16,350 gp

First method:
1) Silver cost: 163,500 sp
2) DC: 19
3) Pay 1/3rd: 54,500 sp
4) Craft checks until you reach a net total of 163,500 sp

Masterwork armor: 150gp
5) Silver cost of masterwork: 1,500 sp
6) DC: 20
7: Pay 1/3rd: 500 sp
8: Craft checks until you read a net total of 1,500 in sp.

Second method:
1) Silver cost: 165,000 sp
2) DC: 19
3) Pay 1/3rd: 55,000 sp
4) Craft checks until you reach a net total of 165,000 sp

The item is now done because adamantine armor is ALWAYS masterwork and the cost was already included in the item pricing.

The problem with the first method, is you either 1) have to subtract out the included price of masterwork to do the 2 separate craft checks, or 2) double charge for the masterwork (the craft rules don't say you can not pay for it). Both of these are less than obvious and requires twisting to read the rules that way. The more obvious read is that the cost is included, and the item comes out as masterwork, because all adamantine is always masterwork.


Aelryinth wrote:

Furthermore, it is a House Rule that any wizard could use to absolutely destroy your economy. Consider that every day a 9th level wizard could walk outside, cast Fabricate from his 4500 gp of raw components, make 13,500 gp worth of adamantine full plate, and profit 9,000 gp for casting one spell.

Every day. It's bad enough he can spend 500 gp and get 1500 gp of full plate instantly...1000 gp/day profit for casting one spell and waiting for some guy to come along who wants to equip all his soldiers. Who needs to go adventuring?

Wizards messing up the world around them through their magic is parr for the course. Similar abuse can arise from another 5th level spell: Wall of Stone.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You're trying to twist the wording, Tarantuala.

The extra cost of adamantine subsumes the additional cost of masterwork, in effect replacing it.

Nowhere does it say you don't use the masterwork rules. Just because you can't find the +150 gp masterwork component does not mean that suddenly you don't make a masterwork roll. It says right in the item description that masterwork is INCLUDED in the extra costs, so you don't add them in twice.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Darth Grall wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Furthermore, it is a House Rule that any wizard could use to absolutely destroy your economy. Consider that every day a 9th level wizard could walk outside, cast Fabricate from his 4500 gp of raw components, make 13,500 gp worth of adamantine full plate, and profit 9,000 gp for casting one spell.

Every day. It's bad enough he can spend 500 gp and get 1500 gp of full plate instantly...1000 gp/day profit for casting one spell and waiting for some guy to come along who wants to equip all his soldiers. Who needs to go adventuring?

I disagree with your interpretation.

How exactly does he do this? The material cost is: the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created which means it doesn't save you any money to craft these items, an item still costs 1/3 to make. Unless your DM lets you break the rules and sell for more than 1/2 price, you only make 1/6th price profit. And since you can't increase the margins by making magical goods, it's not game breaking.

And more importantly, it's not something that would happen all the time even with NPCs. These materials are precious, once used up they'd be gone. Sure, the NPC wizard with an armory shop flooded the economy with a bunch of Mithral armors, make a good junk of change, they'll be out of the stuff. The reason it costs so much is that it's hard to come by. There won't be a constant inflow of it forever.

Sorry, Darth, I can't agree with you.

A mightily talented level 20 smith with +40 to his check, taking 10 for a 50 check, and raising the 19 DC for this armor to 49 so he works 4 times as fast as a normal person, will do 2450 sp of work/day, or 245 gp. This is probably the finest smith on the planet. It will take him 68 days to complete his armor, working 4 times as fast as a normal man with incredible skill.

A suit of masterwork adamantine plate is 16,500 gp (oops on the 13,500). 1/3 material cost = 5,500 gp. Sell at 1/2 == 8,250 gp.

net profit= 2,750 gp PER SPELL by a 9th level wizard who can arrange for a +10 to his Craft Armor skill, likely by putting on a +2 Headband with the Skill inset.

He will complete 68 suits in the time it takes a 20th level awesomely skilled smith to make 1, and if he only sells at half price to a middle-man instead of putting his suits out for bid, he will make 187,000 gp during the same time period.

Yeah, I think not.

And unfortunately there's no rules for economic shortages in the basic game. If you're willing to fork over the money, someone somewhere is going to dig the ore out of the ground and get it to you.

==Aelryinth


Wizards are overpowered, is this news? A Wizard could just go into a timeless realm created with Create Demiplane, and craft till they run out of materials.

And to make these things, they still need a craft skill. They aren't just crafters, they're crafters enhancing their crafting with magic to shortcut production times. Why wouldn't the Wizard do it better than the mundane?

Though honestly Aelryinth, I think you're in the minority on this. Clearly we can't convince you you're wrong so till we get an FAQ we're at an impasse. Hiding this thread now, cheers.

Liberty's Edge

Well, nobody's denying they can do it faster...heck, look at the profit if all they do is standard full plate, assembly-line style. How many castings of fabricate can they do in a day?

How many pearls of power can they have?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Trying to argue that armor requiring higher DC's to make is not higher quality crafted goods does not fly as an argument. Heavy armor is higher quality armor then medium, which is higher quality then light. Ask ANY smith about the challenges in building such a suit...there is considerably more skill involved in heavier armors.

And while Chain mail may seem easy to make, I'm absolutely positive that until you try making a functional one yourself, you're not going to see the difference between a real suit and a crappy suit, and how much easier it would be to just tap some studs onto a leather breastplate and call it a day.

----------
Actually, I doubt I'm in the minority, as this has been rehashed in several threads, and most of the people in them did realize that the masterwork and base crafting checks were seperated, and Fabricate didn't do them both.

it's a clear change from 3.5, another subtle nerfing of an abusable spell.

And going into a timeless realm might stop time for you, but doesn't stop time outside the realm. A smith could use the same realm and do the same thing, after all. There's one in the desert AP, where you visit one of Nex's demiplanes, who is doing exactly that!

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Essentially, if they can do it, every smith in the world that isn't magical should simply give up. 1 wizard per 100 sq mi could supply enough...for everyone. Forever.

Economy? What's that?


Aelryinth wrote:
Actually, I doubt I'm in the minority, as this has been rehashed in several threads, and most of the people in them did realize that the masterwork and base crafting checks were seperated, and Fabricate didn't do them both.

My point is that because both "the base item" and the "masterwork component" are treated as 2 separate items, you can craft those 2 items with 2 separate castings of the fabricate spell. Fabricate makes items. It does not say it is unable to make the "masterwork component" for an item. The craft rules say to treat them as separate items. If you make the craft check, you can do it. Takes 2 castings for a masterwork something.

The Exchange

Heres something to throw a spanner on the works. Mithril chainmail and adamantine full plate are both listed in the magic item section, under specific armours.

That means you can't amke either of them from the fabtricate spell since they're magic.

Cheers

edit - Check the PRD, under core rule books and magic armour. Specific magic items. Adamanine Breastplate, Elven chainmail and Dwarven full plate. All of those are specificall listed in magic items section. None of those have magic qualities apart from what they're made of.

By this reasoning, the material itself must be considered magical in nature in terms of the Fabricate set of spells.


I bolded the important parts. They are listed so people won't argue about the cost/benefits of those specific armors. They also are specifically stated to be not magical.
"Mithral Shirt

Price 1,100 gp; Aura no aura (nonmagical); CL —; Weight 10 lbs.

This extremely light chain shirt is made of very fine mithral links. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 10%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, and no armor check penalty. It is considered light armor."

"Adamatine Breastplate

Price 10,200 gp; Aura no aura (nonmagical); CL —; Weight 30 lbs.

This nonmagical breastplate is made of adamantine, giving its wearer damage reduction 2/—."

"Dwarven Plate

Price 16,500 gp; Aura no aura (nonmagical); CL —; Weight 50 lbs.

This full plate is made of adamantine, giving its wearer damage reduction 3/—."

The Exchange

FABRICATE
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.

I bolded the part above.

Since the items I listed are in the magic items section of the book, they can't be crafted. Being non magical means nothing, its all about the Noun use in PAthfinder rules, as it was in DnD before it. They are specifically named magic itmes, therefore cannot be "Fabricated" by the spell.


I'm not crafting Dwarven Plate. I'm crafting a suit of Masterwork Full-Plate made out of adamantine.

The Exchange

Tarantula wrote:
I'm not crafting Dwarven Plate. I'm crafting a suit of Masterwork Full-Plate made out of adamantine.

Which is known as Dwarven plate in Pathfinder

Edit - Remember in Pathfinder, the specific always overrules the general.

As such, the only time you'll find an item that is adamantine full plate in the rules, it is Dwarven Plate.


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To be fair, the armor is listed under "Specific Magic Armor" not "Specific Magic Items". Also, in the Magic Items crafting rules, to craft magic armor requires the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Crafting masterwork adamantine full-plate does not require this feat. Ergo it is not a magic armor.

Edit: Also the non-magic items listed as specific armors do not have their construction requirements listed. As they do not need to be created like magic items.


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Aelryinth, I can respect your stance on this and for the most part you have some solid information. However, you have a hard stance that you claim is from a strict RAW angle and that "any other reasoning is a house rule". However, you seem to imply that every use of the Fabricate spell requires a craft check.

Aelryinth wrote:
To make anything with Fabricate, you have to make a craft check or the spell fails to spin your raw materials together properly.

This is not in the spell description. The spell description specifically says that a craft check is required on items requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. If it does not require such a high degree, no check is made. What can be debated is what constitutes "high degree" (as someone else mentioned).

You also take a stance that Plate is of higher quality than Chainmail. Can you show me where this is stated in the rules? I'm not asking for the DCs either, the DC defines how hard the item is to make...not it's quality. If DC defined quality, then our only point of references would be that anything of DC 15 or higher is considered "high quality" as per the Craft rules that point out "high quality item (bell)" as having a DC 15.

Assuming that DC 15 = High Quality is what is intended, then Fabricate could still create Masterwork items....but only if the original item was less than a DC 15. A chain shirt is a DC 14, so Fabricate could be used to create one of masterwork quality, requiring a single craft check on the DC 20 masterwork component.

If DC 15 != High Quality, then the only point of reference we have for quality is masterwork which means that Fabricate could create any masterwork item requiring a craft check for the masterwork component.

I happen to be of the opinion (though not a fan of the idea) that Fabricate can create Masterwork items and that this constitutes the "high degree of craftsmanship" that would then require the DC 20 masterwork check. Economy breaking? Yeah. But that's magic, it has a tendency to screw everything up.

I think no matter how we look at this...it's a good candidate for a FAQ. Someone care to write up a post that has information clear enough (not this debate) for FAQing?


I'm actually fine with mithril and adamantine taking a long time to craft. They are supposed to be rare metals that are difficult to work with to everyone except the finest smiths.

The Exchange

Tarantula wrote:

To be fair, the armor is listed under "Specific Magic Armor" not "Specific Magic Items". Also, in the Magic Items crafting rules, to craft magic armor requires the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Crafting masterwork adamantine full-plate does not require this feat. Ergo it is not a magic armor.

Edit: Also the non-magic items listed as specific armors do not have their construction requirements listed. As they do not need to be created like magic items.

Only according to you. Since specific magic armour is a subheading in the section labelled Magic Items, then by definition those items are considered magic items.

I don't recall a rule anywhere that says its only a magic item if it has creation requirements. That's just you making stuff up.

Now, having said all of that, I was merely pointing out the inconsistency in the rules at the moment which makes crafting difficult.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Actually... the fabricate spell doesn't say you're limited to just one craft check. It just says you must make a craft check for an article of high degree of crastsmanship. Nothing in there says you can only make one craft check with this spell, hell it doesn't even limit itself to one item in the spell description:

--------------

Fabricate
School transmutation Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none
Spell Resistance no

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.

--------------

Based on my reading of the spell, nothing, except the maximum size limit of the target, is stopping a person from mass producing a bunch of items with a single spell. Get some wood and some stone 1/3 the cost of a quiver of arrows(20) or several quivers and bam! All of the arrows you might want with a single casting as limited by your materials. So I don't see why I couldn't get together the necessary materials for an Adamantine plate armor and fabricate it.... and I think the only reason why I probably couldn't mass produce a few is due to the 1 cubic foot per level clause when working with mineral. FINALLY this a is 5th level spell. Is it out of the power range for it to make some special armor with this spell??? Really?!

Liberty's Edge

xevious573 wrote:

Actually... the fabricate spell doesn't say you're limited to just one craft check. It just says you must make a craft check for an article of high degree of crastsmanship. Nothing in there says you can only make one craft check with this spell, hell it doesn't even limit itself to one item in the spell description:

--------------

Fabricate
School transmutation Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none
Spell Resistance no

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.

--------------

Based on my reading of the spell, nothing, except the maximum size limit of the target, is stopping a person from mass producing a bunch of items with a single spell. Get some wood and some stone 1/3 the cost of a quiver of arrows(20) or several quivers and bam! All of the arrows you might want with a single casting as limited by your materials. So I don't see why I couldn't get together the necessary materials for an Adamantine plate armor and fabricate it.... and I think the only reason why I probably couldn't mass produce a few is due to the 1 cubic foot per level clause when working with mineral. FINALLY this a is 5th level spell. Is it out of the power range for it to make some special armor with this spell??? Really?!

Yes.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
EldonG wrote:
xevious573 wrote:

Actually... the fabricate spell doesn't say you're limited to just one craft check. It just says you must make a craft check for an article of high degree of crastsmanship. Nothing in there says you can only make one craft check with this spell, hell it doesn't even limit itself to one item in the spell description:

--------------

Fabricate
School transmutation Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none
Spell Resistance no

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.

--------------

Based on my reading of the spell, nothing, except the maximum size limit of the target, is stopping a person from mass producing a bunch of items with a single spell. Get some wood and some stone 1/3 the cost of a quiver of arrows(20) or several quivers and bam! All of the arrows you might want with a single casting as limited by your materials. So I don't see why I couldn't get together the necessary materials for an Adamantine plate armor and fabricate it.... and I think the only reason why I probably couldn't mass produce a few is due to the 1 cubic foot per level clause when working with mineral. FINALLY this a is 5th level spell. Is it out of the power range for it to make some

...

Why? It can make a catapult just fine. Just walk out into the forest.

EDIT: Don't forget the rope.

Liberty's Edge

xevious573 wrote:
EldonG wrote:
xevious573 wrote:

Actually... the fabricate spell doesn't say you're limited to just one craft check. It just says you must make a craft check for an article of high degree of crastsmanship. Nothing in there says you can only make one craft check with this spell, hell it doesn't even limit itself to one item in the spell description:

--------------

Fabricate
School transmutation Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none
Spell Resistance no

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.

--------------

Based on my reading of the spell, nothing, except the maximum size limit of the target, is stopping a person from mass producing a bunch of items with a single spell. Get some wood and some stone 1/3 the cost of a quiver of arrows(20) or several quivers and bam! All of the arrows you might want with a single casting as limited by your materials. So I don't see why I couldn't get together the necessary materials for an Adamantine plate armor and fabricate it.... and I think the only reason why I probably couldn't mass produce a few is due to the 1 cubic foot per level clause when working with mineral. FINALLY this a is 5th level spell. Is it out of the power range

...

Why?

One high level wizard or sorcerer and suddenly every single armorer in the city is out of work, and there's a glut of high-quality full plate on the market (or ANYTHING else the wizard decides to pick up a few ranks in.)

Yes, one high level wizard can effectively put every craftsman in the city out of business.


22 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

The question asked before, clarified for FAQ purpose :

Can Fabricate be used to craft a Masterwork item (weapon, armor, tool) ? And can it be used to craft items out of special materials (adamantine, mithral, darkwood, ...) ?

Other question :
What is the definition of "high degree of craftsmanship" as it's defined in the spell ?


Quote:
Yes, one high level wizard can effectively put every craftsman in the city out of business.

Yes, but why would he do it ? I mean, he could create dozens of armors a day, but how many of those will he be able to sell ?

And with his charisma (not good) and his diplomacy score (not good), he might be able to sell those cheaper than the material costs... :)

Liberty's Edge

Avh wrote:
Quote:
Yes, one high level wizard can effectively put every craftsman in the city out of business.

Yes, but why would he do it ? I mean, he could create dozens of armors a day, but how many of those will he be able to sell ?

And with his charisma (not good) and his diplomacy score (not good), he might be able to sell those cheaper than the material costs... :)

Why?

More gold in a month than he could make adventuring in a year, maybe? *shrug*.


Nah, adventuring is FAR more lucrative. A single dragon's horde can potentially found kingdoms or set one's family to be rich for generations to come. You can come across several of these adventuring in a year.

Liberty's Edge

Buri wrote:
Nah, adventuring is FAR more lucrative. A single dragon's horde can potentially found kingdoms or set one's family to be rich for generations to come. You can come across several of these adventuring in a year.

...or kill you.

But seriously, at...let's just assume 6 grand...of profit a pop...you buy up all the adamaintite, and make as many as you can sell in a single day...undercutting all the smiths...then move on to mithral. In a month, you will have made a few hundred thousand in a good metropolis, and undercut all the smiths.


Quote:
More gold in a month than he could make adventuring in a year, maybe? *shrug*.

If he find someone to sell his magic-made armor, and if he is good enough to sell this to have profit by selling this. It's full of random and lose for a wizard.

Quote:
Nah, adventuring is FAR more lucrative. A single dragon's horde can potentially found kingdoms or set one's family to be rich for generations to come. You can come across several of these adventuring in a year.

I agree with you.


My master summoner can easily solo a single monster. He cleared out an island infested with undead all by himself. A dragon isn't difficult when you can bring the powers of heaven, hell and the various planes to bear.

Other classes may not be as soloable but an adventuring party will encounter far more than enough treasure to share.

Just thought of my MS duo-ing with a cleric. Dayam!

Liberty's Edge

Avh wrote:
Quote:
More gold in a month than he could make adventuring in a year, maybe? *shrug*.

If he find someone to sell his magic-made armor, and if he is good enough to sell this to have profit by selling this. It's full of random and lose for a wizard.

Quote:
Nah, adventuring is FAR more lucrative. A single dragon's horde can potentially found kingdoms or set one's family to be rich for generations to come. You can come across several of these adventuring in a year.
I agree with you.

...because you haven't thought it through.


A high level wizard would have better things to do than make large amounts of armour - he might make the odd suit on the side to pay the bills but lets be honest any wizard whose great ambition was to make normal armour would be a bit odd.

I don't have an issue with the crafting times, I do with the enchanting times - I'd rather that was 8 days per 1,000gp than 8 hours with no ability to enchant whilst travelling/adventuring.

Liberty's Edge

strayshift wrote:

A high level wizard would have better things to do than make large amounts of armour - he might make the odd suit on the side to pay the bills but lets be honest any wizard whose great ambition was to make normal armour would be a bit odd.

I don't have an issue with the crafting times, I do with the enchanting times - I'd rather that was 8 days per 1,000gp than 8 hours with no ability to enchant whilst travelling/adventuring.

The point is it's not normal armor...and it takes almost no effort. He can do it and never miss a day's studying.


Quote:
..because you haven't thought it through

YOU didn't thought it through : you assumed that he would sell any armor he made, and those very quickly. But nothing is sure (and not with items that costs thousands of gold).

Quote:
A high level wizard would have better things to do than make large amounts of armour - he might make the odd suit on the side to pay the bills but lets be honest any wizard whose great ambition was to make normal armour would be a bit odd.

A high level wizard could be recruited to cast spells for the militia, the lord or for merchants, and earn much more money a day than by crafting adamantine armor. And without having to spend a lot of money in costly components.

Just my 2cp.

Liberty's Edge

Avh wrote:
Quote:
..because you haven't thought it through

YOU didn't thought it through : you assumed that he would sell any armor he made, and those very quickly. But nothing is sure (and not with items that costs thousands of gold).

Quote:
A high level wizard would have better things to do than make large amounts of armour - he might make the odd suit on the side to pay the bills but lets be honest any wizard whose great ambition was to make normal armour would be a bit odd.

A high level wizard could be recruited to cast spells for the militia, the lord or for merchants, and earn much more money a day than by crafting adamantine armor. And without having to spend a lot of money in costly components.

Just my 2cp.

Yes, I did 'thought it through'. If he can make masterwork with fabricate, at 9th level he can make a fortune selling masterwork...anything he wants to, and undercut EVERYBODY'S prices. The only material components are exactly what anyone would need for the job, so he can seriously crank them out. Once he has a few thousand gold, a few pearls of power ramps production...if he waits for a few levels after 9th, he has a few base slots (instead of just one)...and no crafter in the city is safe.

Seriously, if it takes a week for a given object, and he has 2 slots and 4 pearls of power, he's just done the work that 6 craftsmen lived off of...for a week...and if you think he can't undercut them 20% and sell like crazy...you're amazingly wrong.

How much does it take to hire a salesman? Hmmm?


Quote:
Seriously, if it takes a week for a given object, and he has 2 slots and 4 pearls of power, he's just done the work that 6 craftsmen lived off of...for a week...and if you think he can't undercut them 20% and sell like crazy...you're amazingly wrong.

It depends on the items. Weapons and armors are not sold very quickly by themselves (and you need to craft the good ones).

Other items are quickly made by smiths/crafters, and your common wizard will not upset the market enough to make crafter in the city unsafe.

But I repeat : he will make much better profit by casting spells without components for the merchants (he will even have a little discount with those !), the lord (for favors, in addition to gold), the militia (to be seen with good views by the militia and people, instead of seen as the jerk that craft unlimited sets of adamantine armor to make smiths ridiculous, or the wizard that can destroy cities if he woke up moody), or nobles (for influence).

Yes I thought it through. And no, it is less attractive to craft armor with fabricate that to do anything else. It is interesting though to accept a crafting demand from an NPC and craft it if needed, but it won't be the same (you will ask the NPC to provide the component, and he will pay the normal cost for casting a spell, 5x10xCL of your wizard).

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