Is Craft really that slow?


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Nosferatu, we are talking about the spell because it's a game-breaker.

the suspension of disbelief that the economy of a magical world works cracks and shatters as soon as you apply Fabricate to it.

That's why the discussion is happening. Sure, if the player is never going to abuse it, you can ignore it, and the DM says it doesn't happen. Buuuuuut as soon as your level 9 wizard or sorc wants to make a little money on the side...it opens a really bad can of worms, and then the other effects of the spell start to be revealed, especially how it sidelines crafters.

as for the 50% rule and demanding to sell at 90, great, just wait around for the buyer, and don't go adventuring.

The 50% rule assumes you are selling to middlemen, who turn around and sell to final customers. If you want to BE a middleman, give up adventuring and get into being a merchant, I'm sure your party can adventure without your character. The DM will take him and make an NPC, explain how he's getting into merchant politics and making and using a lot of gold, and the rest of the party is killing monsters and being heroes.

It's all good.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:

The 50% rule assumes you are selling to middlemen, who turn around and sell to final customers. If you want to BE a middleman, give up adventuring and get into being a merchant, I'm sure your party can adventure without your character. The DM will take him and make an NPC, explain how he's getting into merchant politics and making and using a lot of gold, and the rest of the party is killing monsters and being heroes.

It's all good.

==Aelryinth

This is exactly what I would do with a PC that was that devoted to crafting to the point of no longer adventuring. I would deem the PC "retired" from adventuring, at which point they become an NPC. Hurray, your PC successfully became a successful crafter/merchant and future games might have equipment with a little "Made by Previous PC Here" sticker on the armor they buy at magi-mart.

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:

Cool. You're thinking about it, rather than handwaving it. If I play in a game world, I want it to make sense. Even though I made that point several times, I don't think many people really thought about it.

Now...I would insist that a guild of wizards would stomp over just about any opposition, if they were numerous and active enough...and it wouldn't take many...especially seeing as they'd be rich, too.

Now...why would there really be that much opposition to the wizards, really? I admit, I've come up with some extreme scenarios in defense of my concept...but frankly, 9 of 10 adventurers will LOVE the wizard who cranks out in...

Do you put this much effort into thinking about how the general stuff is crafted in your game world? Honestly, I handwave all of that. Why? Because it isn't worth the time. Does the book address why fabricate does or does not impact economies? No? Then it isn't important enough to waste time deciding.

You go ahead and feel free.

I have people who actually have character concepts like 'great dwarven smith/warrior'...and you just handwaved him into insignificance.

I don't do that.

Because I don't spend time figuring out which NPC in town makes a living spinning hemp rope, I have now handwaved your dwarven smith into insignificance?

Really, what does he lose out on? He still made his armor. He spent time in it. If anything, I would say the armor he made himself has more sentimental value for him and for someone he made it for than any armor a wizard fabricated on the spot would.

He could also just go to a shop and BUY that armor he wants. It is the players choice that he wants the character to be a smith and make his own things. Does having fabricate exist mean that there is nobody in the game world that crafts things by hand? No, it isn't stated. That is for you as the GM to decide and make appropriate if you want to. You control all the NPCs. You decide if they all use...

No.

No, he can't, because there is no shop in existence that stocks adamantite plate, and it does take ages to create. Fabricate being able to do that would mean that every suit of 'dwarven' plate in existence would in fact be made by a wizard...because the dwarves couldn't compete with that.

Get it?

No?

I didn't think so.


EldonG wrote:

No.

No, he can't, because there is no shop in existence that stocks adamantite plate, and it does take ages to create. Fabricate being able to do that would mean that every suit of 'dwarven' plate in existence would in fact be made by a wizard...because the dwarves couldn't compete with that.

Get it?

No?

I didn't think so.

Really?

Dwarven plate costs 16,500gp.

Metropolis by default have a 75% chance availability of items up to 16,000gp. If you take the game mastery guide (now available on the Game Reference Document) and the example City-State of Intrigue (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mastery/settlements.html)

Base Value 27,200 gp; Purchase Limit 200,000 gp;

There is a 75% chance you can find a suit of dwarven plate in this example metropolis. Any metropolis with a bonus to its base value amount would be a likely place to buy dwarven plate.

What if it is dwarven wizards/clerics (artifice domain)/other casters fabricated the dwarven plate armor instead? Does that make it less dwarven? What if, in the world, all the "master smiths" are casters who fabricate?

You are deciding that wizards use fabricate this way. And if you want all goods in your world to have been made by wizards, that's fine. If you don't, you don't need them to. Make up whatever reason you want for it. Maybe there is 1 wizard who does it, and he is now level 20 and never dies, and powerful enough that he will steal the spell from any other wizard who researches it unless they pay him a percentage of profit? You can decide how your game world works. I'm sorry you can't imagine a world where fabricate does not destroy the economy. I can.

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:

No.

No, he can't, because there is no shop in existence that stocks adamantite plate, and it does take ages to create. Fabricate being able to do that would mean that every suit of 'dwarven' plate in existence would in fact be made by a wizard...because the dwarves couldn't compete with that.

Get it?

No?

I didn't think so.

Really?

Dwarven plate costs 16,500gp.

Metropolis by default have a 75% chance availability of items up to 16,000gp. If you take the game mastery guide (now available on the Game Reference Document) and the example City-State of Intrigue (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mastery/settlements.html)

Base Value 27,200 gp; Purchase Limit 200,000 gp;

There is a 75% chance you can find a suit of dwarven plate in this example metropolis. Any metropolis with a bonus to its base value amount would be a likely place to buy dwarven plate.

What if it is dwarven wizards/clerics (artifice domain)/other casters fabricated the dwarven plate armor instead? Does that make it less dwarven? What if, in the world, all the "master smiths" are casters who fabricate?

You are deciding that wizards use fabricate this way. And if you want all goods in your world to have been made by wizards, that's fine. If you don't, you don't need them to. Make up whatever reason you want for it. Maybe there is 1 wizard who does it, and he is now level 20 and never dies, and powerful enough that he will steal the spell from any other wizard who researches it unless they pay him a percentage of profit? You can decide how your game world works. I'm sorry you can't imagine a world where fabricate does not destroy the economy. I can.

No, I'm assuming they aren't so stupid as to not do it.

You can play with whatever magical means you like, the whole point is that the smiths would not be the ones who made it.

Oh, and that suit of armor you have a 75% chance of finding? Sure, no problem...it belonged to Redmon's uncle, and it's just collecting dust. It's in the basement, under lock and key...of course, it'll have to be refitted, and that will mean finding a smith that can actually work it, and even refitting will take a good bit of time.

Redmon can probably be talked into selling it...

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

The 50% rule assumes you are selling to middlemen, who turn around and sell to final customers. If you want to BE a middleman, give up adventuring and get into being a merchant, I'm sure your party can adventure without your character. The DM will take him and make an NPC, explain how he's getting into merchant politics and making and using a lot of gold, and the rest of the party is killing monsters and being heroes.

It's all good.

==Aelryinth

This is exactly what I would do with a PC that was that devoted to crafting to the point of no longer adventuring. I would deem the PC "retired" from adventuring, at which point they become an NPC. Hurray, your PC successfully became a successful crafter/merchant and future games might have equipment with a little "Made by Previous PC Here" sticker on the armor they buy at magi-mart.

You see, I play in games meant to emulate great fantasy.

None of them feature Magi-Mart.


If you haven't, check out this product by Spes Magna Games. It makes the (mundane) Craft rules make sense for players, and I can't recommend it enough.


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Cheapy wrote:
If you haven't, check out this product by Spes Magna Games. It makes the (mundane) Craft rules make sense for players, and I can't recommend it enough.

Agreed. I picked this up and, while I still believe it has some flaws, it is far better suited to a game where you're going to allow crafting and adventuring, and it rather simply addresses (by throwing out) the ridiculous Pathfinder concept of "time to craft equals cost".


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
EldonG wrote:


You see, I play in games meant to emulate great fantasy.

None of them feature Magi-Mart.

And you're worried about fabricate and 9th+ level wizards obsoleting dwarven smiths? How does that fit in with emulating great fantasy? It seems more of an irrelevant question given that parameter.

Liberty's Edge

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Bill Dunn wrote:
EldonG wrote:


You see, I play in games meant to emulate great fantasy.

None of them feature Magi-Mart.

And you're worried about fabricate and 9th+ level wizards obsoleting dwarven smiths? How does that fit in with emulating great fantasy? It seems more of an irrelevant question given that parameter.

...and 'dwarven armor' is just the name brand, in the fantasy you know, I guess.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

The problem with the grand scheme of a wizard becoming fabulously wealthy by mass producing adamantium full plate (or any expensive item) is that it makes the following assumptions:

1. There is infinite demand at any price level. Just how many people in a given setting have both the wealth and the need for items costing a 1000+gp at a given point in time? My guess for most campaigns is very few. That suit of adamantium plate might take months or years to sell at full price.

2. The prices in a given setting for a given item are fixed regardless of supply. The price of item is mostly based on the cost it takes to produce it in terms of materials (raw materials, time, skill, etc.) and relative scarcity. If some wizard starts churning out suits of armor why wouldn't the price crash to the cost of materials plus a modest fee for the 6 seconds it costs to cast the spell?

3. No other 9th level wizard in the entire history campaign world has figured this out yet. Because if one has suits of full plate would be so common that people would be selling them for scrap just to keep them from cluttering up the place.

I think the key is to remember that Pathfinder is a game about dungeons & dragons and not papers & paychecks. The economic system is easy to break simply because it is based around getting PCs phat loot to kill monsters rather than trying to model an actual functioning economy.

Liberty's Edge

The_Hanged_Man wrote:

The problem with the grand scheme of a wizard becoming fabulously wealthy by mass producing adamantium full plate (or any expensive item) is that it makes the following assumptions:

1. There is infinite demand at any price level. Just how many people in a given setting have both the wealth and the need for items costing a 1000+gp at a given point in time? My guess for most campaigns is very few. That suit of adamantium plate might take months or years to sell at full price.

2. The prices in a given setting for a given item are fixed regardless of supply. The price of item is mostly based on the cost it takes to produce it in terms of materials (raw materials, time, skill, etc.) and relative scarcity. If some wizard starts churning out suits of armor why wouldn't the price crash to the cost of materials plus a modest fee for the 6 seconds it costs to cast the spell?

3. No other 9th level wizard in the entire history campaign world has figured this out yet. Because if one has suits of full plate would be so common that people would be selling them for scrap just to keep them from cluttering up the place.

I think the key is to remember that Pathfinder is a game about dungeons & dragons and not papers & paychecks. The economic system is easy to break simply because it is based around getting PCs phat loot to kill monsters rather than trying to model an actual functioning economy.

I have never assumed infinite...but rather definite demand, based on the relative percentage of martial PC classes on the population, and levels per population...which leads to 2...destroying the economy...taking all the actual smiths that produced this completely out of the picture.

And no, the established price doesn't drop for that rare good that you can suddenly produce in the twinkling of an eye...especially if it's only you doing it. You can even charge MORE. Yes, you can get it from the dwarven smiths, maybe in 6 months, or you can have it...now.

Pony up.

Your 3 is pretty meaningless, as 'suits of full plate' are not anywhere near a big enough draw...there's not that much profit in it. There's MASSIVE profit in adamantite plate.


Frankly, the implications of the Fabricate spell for the game world's economy and the well-being of its mundane crafters are not really worth considering, given how useless the crafting system is to begin with.

Why would I be worried about wizards upstaging master armorers, when the crafting system is profoundly unrealistic to begin with? Who would want to go into the business of crafting armor anyway, when you can generate the same wealth by carving pegs out of driftwood?

I'll worry about Fabricate messing up the economy as soon there is an actual non-messed-up economical system to begin with.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
EldonG wrote:
There's MASSIVE profit in adamantite plate.

My point exactly. Let's say some high level fighter type wants a suit of adamantine plate. So...he begins to ask around about where to get one and for the best price. Due to the large amounts of potential profit involved before long he receives a dozen sendings from across Golarian offering to teleport him his armor within the day. Now with multiple wizards bidding for his business that fighter can sit back and wait for the lowest bid which is mostly likely going to be far below the 16,000 asking price.

Basically, what I am saying is that if it was that easy for a single wizard to earn massive profits then all of them would be doing it and the profits would vanish. Seriously, this is kind of a pointless argument anyway since any GM with half a brain would not let this fly.


oooo imagine a world where almost every high level wizard is trying to kill every other high level wizard so they can get a leg up on the crafting racket.

Magic battles would just break out in the streets, there would be reward posters everywhere for the heads of every wizard in the area.

Towns would have intense screening for arcane caster because they don't want any trouble in their town, and people who buy Fabricated armor are hunted down and killed for buying from a rival wizard.

Then one day everyone realized that the drwarven empire, who forge their armor by hand, and was ignored and laughed at for their slow crafting process, has been biding their time and now that the rest of the world is crippled from everyone of any significant strength having been killed in the silly wizard armor wars.....they can start expanding.


:P Maybe instead of attempting to apply realistic economics to a fantasy game world, we should assume that each of our games operate in a microcosm centered on our characters, and assume that we can sell our goods for the 50% the book mentions (unless our characters buy a storefront, in which case we can set the price).


Heresy! Someone must be right!


Maybe the rival wizards merely teleport in, and disintegrate the enemy wizards plate that they had fabricated preventing its sale.


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Aelryinth wrote:

Nosferatu, we are talking about the spell because it's a game-breaker.

the suspension of disbelief that the economy of a magical world works cracks and shatters as soon as you apply Fabricate to it.

That's why the discussion is happening. Sure, if the player is never going to abuse it, you can ignore it, and the DM says it doesn't happen. Buuuuuut as soon as your level 9 wizard or sorc wants to make a little money on the side...it opens a really bad can of worms, and then the other effects of the spell start to be revealed, especially how it sidelines crafters.

as for the 50% rule and demanding to sell at 90, great, just wait around for the buyer, and don't go adventuring.

The 50% rule assumes you are selling to middlemen, who turn around and sell to final customers. If you want to BE a middleman, give up adventuring and get into being a merchant, I'm sure your party can adventure without your character. The DM will take him and make an NPC, explain how he's getting into merchant politics and making and using a lot of gold, and the rest of the party is killing monsters and being heroes.

It's all good.

==Aelryinth

Hold on. I think that this conversation is taking things a bit far. Fabricate doesn't break the economy because the economy is in the GM's capable hands. There is no guarantee that a wizard using fabricate to make suits of armor is going to have buyers. This is a meta-game concept that we all usually take for granted when unloading all the spoils of the last adventure. But any GM worth their salt is not going to let a PC flout Wealth guidlelines because they have fabricate. That just assumes too much.

The craft rules have always been borked since 3E, and no one fixes them because the game is not called "Merchants and Moneylenders" (although there are some nice 3rd party products out there). Fabricate is also NOT an exploit to get rich. Its a spell you use when you need to craft a specific item right now. Its also a 5th level spell, like teleport or dominate person or baleful polymorph. A 9th level wizard is already breaking physical laws left and right in very dramatic ways.

Wizards and economics already don't mix. If a 9th level wizard sold the castings of all his spells, its would net him something in the thousands of gold pieces range, per day. But that doesn't automatically ruin the economy, in most people's games, now does it?


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I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but Making Crafting Work is a low cost 3rd party pdf that is highly recommended if crafting is big part of your games.


Tarantula wrote:
Maybe the rival wizards merely teleport in, and disintegrate the enemy wizards plate that they had fabricated preventing its sale.

Especially because the crafting wizard used his 5th level spell slot on fabricate and not mage's private sanctum. Wizard chess FTW!


Tarantula wrote:
Maybe the rival wizards merely teleport in, and disintegrate the enemy wizards plate that they had fabricated preventing its sale.

I'm sure that's where it would start, but things would escalate pretty quickly

Liberty's Edge

The_Hanged_Man wrote:
EldonG wrote:
There's MASSIVE profit in adamantite plate.

My point exactly. Let's say some high level fighter type wants a suit of adamantine plate. So...he begins to ask around about where to get one and for the best price. Due to the large amounts of potential profit involved before long he receives a dozen sendings from across Golarian offering to teleport him his armor within the day. Now with multiple wizards bidding for his business that fighter can sit back and wait for the lowest bid which is mostly likely going to be far below the 16,000 asking price.

Basically, what I am saying is that if it was that easy for a single wizard to earn massive profits then all of them would be doing it and the profits would vanish. Seriously, this is kind of a pointless argument anyway since any GM with half a brain would not let this fly.

And my point is that I don't...by not allowing masterwork to be Fabricated.


Anburaid wrote:


I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but Making Crafting Work is a low cost 3rd party pdf that is highly recommended if crafting is big part of your games.

It is good, and it's been mentioned, and I think ignored, several times. :)

Liberty's Edge

R_Chance wrote:
Anburaid wrote:


I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but Making Crafting Work is a low cost 3rd party pdf that is highly recommended if crafting is big part of your games.
It is good, and it's been mentioned, and I think ignored, several times. :)

I'd have a copy of it right now if I wasn't stoopid broke. Mark is good people, and he thinks things through...sadly, I have more bills than bucks. :p


The_Hanged_Man wrote:

Now with multiple wizards bidding for his business that fighter can sit back and wait for the lowest bid which is mostly likely going to be far below the 16,000 asking price.

Basically, what I am saying is that if it was that easy for a single wizard to earn massive profits then all of them would be doing it and the profits would vanish. Seriously, this is kind of a pointless argument anyway since any GM with half a brain would not let this fly.

Assuming unlimited Wizards, yeah this is what will happen. The cost will be materials cost + 450gp, the standard cost for casting a 5th level spell.

Assuming limited Wizardry, OTOH, the Wizard will charge more than the market rate, because of convenience. It really depends on the number of Wizards around.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Anburaid, the sell rules at 50% exist simply so that you can sell whatever you have.

There's no difference between selling a suit of salvaged full plate or selling one you just fabricated. You can still sell it.

Your 'DM controls the buyers' thus isn't a factor. Using Fabricate, you can guarantee yourself income every day that you can cast the spell.

You can't guarantee that there are going to be buyers every day for your cast spells. Fabricate is based on what YOU want to do, and spells for hire on what the DM allows. Do you see the difference?

If suddenly the DM starts restricting buyers of Fabricated gear, he's going to need a reason, or justify why you can't sell it vs selling loot gear.

And it's that conflict of interest which breaks the spell.

==Aelryinth


I would expect (or hope, anyway) that the upcoming Ultimate Campaign (or whatever they are calling it) might flesh out the "Manufacturers and Markets" rules a bit, personally.

Liberty's Edge

Xaratherus wrote:
I would expect (or hope, anyway) that the upcoming Ultimate Campaign (or whatever they are calling it) might flesh out the "Manufacturers and Markets" rules a bit, personally.

Absolutely. Man, I hope so.


Aelryinth wrote:

Anburaid, the sell rules at 50% exist simply so that you can sell whatever you have.

There's no difference between selling a suit of salvaged full plate or selling one you just fabricated. You can still sell it.

Your 'DM controls the buyers' thus isn't a factor. Using Fabricate, you can guarantee yourself income every day that you can cast the spell.

You can't guarantee that there are going to be buyers every day for your cast spells. Fabricate is based on what YOU want to do, and spells for hire on what the DM allows. Do you see the difference?

If suddenly the DM starts restricting buyers of Fabricated gear, he's going to need a reason, or justify why you can't sell it vs selling loot gear.

And it's that conflict of interest which breaks the spell.

==Aelryinth

The DM also controls the purchase of the components.

How much adamantium is in your world? How much does that city have? Those are limits the DM can impose without effecting fabricate itself directly.

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Anburaid, the sell rules at 50% exist simply so that you can sell whatever you have.

There's no difference between selling a suit of salvaged full plate or selling one you just fabricated. You can still sell it.

Your 'DM controls the buyers' thus isn't a factor. Using Fabricate, you can guarantee yourself income every day that you can cast the spell.

You can't guarantee that there are going to be buyers every day for your cast spells. Fabricate is based on what YOU want to do, and spells for hire on what the DM allows. Do you see the difference?

If suddenly the DM starts restricting buyers of Fabricated gear, he's going to need a reason, or justify why you can't sell it vs selling loot gear.

And it's that conflict of interest which breaks the spell.

==Aelryinth

The DM also controls the purchase of the components.

How much adamantium is in your world? How much does that city have? Those are limits the DM can impose without effecting fabricate itself directly.

This is definitely true...but it still doesn't mean that the dwarves will ever actually lovingly, painstakingly craft dwarven plate. Some wizard will snatch up every friggin' contract for it.

I've actually taken it a step farther, by the way...it's a secret technique that only the dwarves know...and they don't share well. (Actually, there's backstory to it...others do know, but they aren't common on the prime...the dwarves paid dearly for the knowledge...and it's been a problem they don't like talking about...ever since. Even most dwarves don't know the truth of it...)


EldonG wrote:

This is definitely true...but it still doesn't mean that the dwarves will ever actually lovingly, painstakingly craft dwarven plate. Some wizard will snatch up every friggin' contract for it.

I've actually taken it a step farther, by the way...it's a secret technique that only the dwarves know...and they don't share well. (Actually, there's backstory to it...others do know, but they aren't common on the prime...the dwarves paid dearly for the knowledge...and it's been a problem they don't like talking about...ever since. Even most dwarves don't know the truth of it...)

Why not? Just because a company can build a wooden boat in a few days doesn't stop people building them in their basements/garages over months/years for themselves.

I think the armorsmiths would still make armor. Just for a much more sentimental/personal reason than for love of money.

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:

This is definitely true...but it still doesn't mean that the dwarves will ever actually lovingly, painstakingly craft dwarven plate. Some wizard will snatch up every friggin' contract for it.

I've actually taken it a step farther, by the way...it's a secret technique that only the dwarves know...and they don't share well. (Actually, there's backstory to it...others do know, but they aren't common on the prime...the dwarves paid dearly for the knowledge...and it's been a problem they don't like talking about...ever since. Even most dwarves don't know the truth of it...)

Why not? Just because a company can build a wooden boat in a few days doesn't stop people building them in their basements/garages over months/years for themselves.

I think the armorsmiths would still make armor. Just for a much more sentimental/personal reason than for love of money.

I can see one making his own...but that's about it. Seriously.

I mean, really...every suit done for someone else is done for that particular individual...and who do you go to? The guy who will lovingly work on it for a minimum of 6 months...or the guy that will watch you put it on that day?

In Pathfinder, 6 months is huge...


EldonG wrote:

I can see one making his own...but that's about it. Seriously.

I mean, really...every suit done for someone else is done for that particular individual...and who do you go to? The guy who will lovingly work on it for a minimum of 6 months...or the guy that will watch you put it on that day?

In Pathfinder, 6 months is huge...

You don't think the dwarf king would want to have a handcrafted suit of armor instead of something the court wizard whipped up?

What about handed down armor, generations old, that is just refit each year to the new king? I don't think fabricate can "refit" armor as plate requires. Still need smiths for that.

Does it require an in-game numerical bonus of some kind for you to have characters attach more sentimental value to an item? Why can't the fact that it was hand made, specifically for that person, be an important qualifier for the decision of who to make it from.

I know I would rather buy something like armor, from someone who spent time getting to know me, how I would use it, tweaking little things here or there along the way to get it just right. Rather than buy from that a****le wizard, who says "abracadabra, that will be 16,950gp please."

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:

I can see one making his own...but that's about it. Seriously.

I mean, really...every suit done for someone else is done for that particular individual...and who do you go to? The guy who will lovingly work on it for a minimum of 6 months...or the guy that will watch you put it on that day?

In Pathfinder, 6 months is huge...

You don't think the dwarf king would want to have a handcrafted suit of armor instead of something the court wizard whipped up?

What about handed down armor, generations old, that is just refit each year to the new king? I don't think fabricate can "refit" armor as plate requires. Still need smiths for that.

Does it require an in-game numerical bonus of some kind for you to have characters attach more sentimental value to an item? Why can't the fact that it was hand made, specifically for that person, be an important qualifier for the decision of who to make it from.

I know I would rather buy something like armor, from someone who spent time getting to know me, how I would use it, tweaking little things here or there along the way to get it just right. Rather than buy from that a****le wizard, who says "abracadabra, that will be 16,950gp please."

"Where's Dolan?"

"Waiting for his armor"

"Still? I got mine done by that wizard...it's EXACTLY THE SAME. He's 5 levels behind, now...and the Lich King has destroyed yet another village because we're behind him, already! Gee, that'll be nice armor for an 8th level...when we're all 15th, facing the terror of the world!"

Nah, I think most adventurers would choose the quick and easy route...or at least go on about their business as it was being crafted. Most parties hardly take enough downtime for magic item crafting...which goes a lot faster.

Now...the dwarf king? Sure...I'll grant that one...but it's also probably more than just adamantite full plate.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Anburaid wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Nosferatu, we are talking about the spell because it's a game-breaker.

the suspension of disbelief that the economy of a magical world works cracks and shatters as soon as you apply Fabricate to it.

That's why the discussion is happening. Sure, if the player is never going to abuse it, you can ignore it, and the DM says it doesn't happen. Buuuuuut as soon as your level 9 wizard or sorc wants to make a little money on the side...it opens a really bad can of worms, and then the other effects of the spell start to be revealed, especially how it sidelines crafters.

as for the 50% rule and demanding to sell at 90, great, just wait around for the buyer, and don't go adventuring.

The 50% rule assumes you are selling to middlemen, who turn around and sell to final customers. If you want to BE a middleman, give up adventuring and get into being a merchant, I'm sure your party can adventure without your character. The DM will take him and make an NPC, explain how he's getting into merchant politics and making and using a lot of gold, and the rest of the party is killing monsters and being heroes.

It's all good.

==Aelryinth

Hold on. I think that this conversation is taking things a bit far. Fabricate doesn't break the economy because the economy is in the GM's capable hands. There is no guarantee that a wizard using fabricate to make suits of armor is going to have buyers. This is a meta-game concept that we all usually take for granted when unloading all the spoils of the last adventure. But any GM worth their salt is not going to let a PC flout Wealth guidlelines because they have fabricate. That just assumes too much.

The craft rules have always been borked since 3E, and no one fixes them because the game is not called "Merchants and Moneylenders" (although there are some nice 3rd party products out there). Fabricate is also NOT an exploit to get rich. Its a spell you use when you need to craft a specific item right now. Its also a 5th level spell, like teleport or dominate person or baleful polymorph. A 9th level wizard is already breaking physical laws left and right in very dramatic ways.

Wizards and economics already don't mix. If a 9th level wizard sold the castings of all his spells, its would net him something in the thousands of gold pieces range, per day. But that doesn't automatically ruin the economy, in most people's games, now does it?

I think your onto something here. I mean lets look at the economics of a given region where a wizard even capable of casting such a spell would exist.

So smallest sized settlement where you can get a caster with the capability of casting 5 level spells is a large town with a MAXIMUM PURCHASE LIMIT of 10,000 gp. Now for the sake of argument we assume that the vast majority of the population does not just have 10,000 gp floating around in their pockets and this number is most likely relegated to the ultra rich and large merchantile collectives in the area that may have much of this cash tied up in various investments that aren't necessarily gp (magic items, gems, land, etc.).

Now lets assume for the sake of argument that in this particular town said wizard is not only a wizard but functions as an actual crafter, most likely creating all different kinds of items both magical and mundane to accrue coin ranging from cast iron cook wear to magical armor. Now first off if this guy is entrenched in any way in the local economy he knows both the value of a service like fabricate and how quickly he could destabilize his current home if he were to flood the market with a bunch of what would be regular goods on the cheap. Now what this guy probably does what most craftsmen would do, run his business like a normal blacksmithing but offer up fabricate as an add on to speed up the creation process on custom armors he's already working on. Think of it like adding an express shipping cost for those who really want that full plate now. In this way he satisfies his customers needs, get's paid the full amount for the armor he was going to make anyways, and makes a little more in overhead because someone with a lot of scratch decided they needed said armor in 10 minutes rather then 10 weeks. Remember that your fabricator has to have some level of preexisting skill in the craft he is trying to fabricate otherwise he's not going to be able to make the checks so there is no way he's going to just offer to fabricate a suit of plate for you for 950 and miss out on at least the other 550gp he could have made had he just made the armor himself let alone the extra he could tack on thanks to paying for his spellcasting services.

So we have this figure of 1950 gp for a fabricated suit of full-plate, now lets figure out who the hell can pay for it. Now assuming normal hireling prices and costs of personal upkeep the vast majority of townsfolk just wouldn't be interested in spending that as they either can't use it or just can't afford it (assuming the average warrior makes 3 sp per day, 2.1 gp a week, and 5.4 gp per month after factoring out living expenses (3gp per month using poor living), it would take him the better part of 7 years to be able to put down the money for it). Now with all that in mind if we assume a standard distribution of wealth (bell curve) this puts stuff like this well outside the reach of most professional warriors and becomes really only the purview of either the ultra rich or the uncommon adventurer. Pile onto this relative low demand for such items even amongst those groups (not all adventurers wear plate, those that do often don't need to buy a second set, etc.) and it could very easily take months if not years to actually sell something like that if they just decide to wait on a buyer. So in reality fabricates ability to destabilize a regions economy and let a player cheat the game for easy money is pretty much trounced if you just take a minute to look at the base assumptions the game makes about the world and the people that live in it.


doc the grey wrote:
Anburaid wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Nosferatu, we are talking about the spell because it's a game-breaker.

the suspension of disbelief that the economy of a magical world works cracks and shatters as soon as you apply Fabricate to it.

That's why the discussion is happening. Sure, if the player is never going to abuse it, you can ignore it, and the DM says it doesn't happen. Buuuuuut as soon as your level 9 wizard or sorc wants to make a little money on the side...it opens a really bad can of worms, and then the other effects of the spell start to be revealed, especially how it sidelines crafters.

as for the 50% rule and demanding to sell at 90, great, just wait around for the buyer, and don't go adventuring.

The 50% rule assumes you are selling to middlemen, who turn around and sell to final customers. If you want to BE a middleman, give up adventuring and get into being a merchant, I'm sure your party can adventure without your character. The DM will take him and make an NPC, explain how he's getting into merchant politics and making and using a lot of gold, and the rest of the party is killing monsters and being heroes.

It's all good.

==Aelryinth

Hold on. I think that this conversation is taking things a bit far. Fabricate doesn't break the economy because the economy is in the GM's capable hands. There is no guarantee that a wizard using fabricate to make suits of armor is going to have buyers. This is a meta-game concept that we all usually take for granted when unloading all the spoils of the last adventure. But any GM worth their salt is not going to let a PC flout Wealth guidlelines because they have fabricate. That just assumes too much.

The craft rules have always been borked since 3E, and no one fixes them because the game is not called "Merchants and Moneylenders" (although there are some nice 3rd party products out there). Fabricate is also NOT an exploit to get rich. Its a spell you use when you need to craft a specific item right now. Its also a 5th

...

That is how I see it too :)


EldonG wrote:

"Where's Dolan?"

"Waiting for his armor"

"Still? I got mine done by that wizard...it's EXACTLY THE SAME. He's 5 levels behind, now...and the Lich King has destroyed yet another village because we're behind him, already! Gee, that'll be nice armor for an 8th level...when we're all 15th, facing the terror of the world!"

Nah, I think most adventurers would choose the quick and easy route...or at least go on about their business as it was being crafted. Most parties hardly take enough downtime for magic item crafting...which goes a lot faster.

Now...the dwarf king? Sure...I'll grant that one...but it's also probably more than just adamantite full plate.

Sure, most adventurer's would. Who is buying all that stuff the adventurers sell? Oh yeah, NPC's. Not adventurer's. If adventurer's were buying it, you'd get full price for it.


Tarantula wrote:
Sure, most adventurer's would. Who is buying all that stuff the adventurers sell? Oh yeah, NPC's. Not adventurer's. If adventurer's were buying it, you'd get full price for it.

That's based on the assumption that you are selling to a reseller. My assumption (based on the specific example) was that the wizard would be setting up his own shop, in which case you would be getting full price for it.

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:

"Where's Dolan?"

"Waiting for his armor"

"Still? I got mine done by that wizard...it's EXACTLY THE SAME. He's 5 levels behind, now...and the Lich King has destroyed yet another village because we're behind him, already! Gee, that'll be nice armor for an 8th level...when we're all 15th, facing the terror of the world!"

Nah, I think most adventurers would choose the quick and easy route...or at least go on about their business as it was being crafted. Most parties hardly take enough downtime for magic item crafting...which goes a lot faster.

Now...the dwarf king? Sure...I'll grant that one...but it's also probably more than just adamantite full plate.

Sure, most adventurer's would. Who is buying all that stuff the adventurers sell? Oh yeah, NPC's. Not adventurer's. If adventurer's were buying it, you'd get full price for it.

I seriously missed your point here. Sorry, I'm just not sure what you're saying.


@EldonG: I think Tarantula is arguing from the basis of 'selling to a reseller' - i.e., the 'normal' method of selling recovered treasure, which yields on a 50% return.

My assumption was that in our hypothetical example, the wizard is actually setting himself up as a shop, not just using Fabricate and then taking the goods to the local shopkeeper and 'vendoring' it like a recovered treasure.


EldonG wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Sure, most adventurer's would. Who is buying all that stuff the adventurers sell? Oh yeah, NPC's. Not adventurer's. If adventurer's were buying it, you'd get full price for it.
I seriously missed your point here. Sorry, I'm just not sure what you're saying.

Your point was that adventurer's don't care how their armor is made. And will only buy fabricated armor due to the time savings.

My point was, if your wizard is fabricating lots of armor, they are selling it at 50% price to NPC's per the selling gear rules. Therefore, adventurer's are not buying the equipment, and NPC's aren't constrained on time like adventurers are. This makes it reasonable for the DM to rule that NPC's might prefer handcrafted armor over fabricated armor, for purely fluff reasons and not make fabricated armor sales take over the world.


Xaratherus wrote:

@EldonG: I think Tarantula is arguing from the basis of 'selling to a reseller' - i.e., the 'normal' method of selling recovered treasure, which yields on a 50% return.

My assumption was that in our hypothetical example, the wizard is actually setting himself up as a shop, not just using Fabricate and then taking the goods to the local shopkeeper and 'vendoring' it like a recovered treasure.

If you are setting up as a shop to sell full price. Congrats. You have successfully retired from adventuring and are now an NPC. Make a new character.

Liberty's Edge

Tarantula wrote:
EldonG wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Sure, most adventurer's would. Who is buying all that stuff the adventurers sell? Oh yeah, NPC's. Not adventurer's. If adventurer's were buying it, you'd get full price for it.
I seriously missed your point here. Sorry, I'm just not sure what you're saying.

Your point was that adventurer's don't care how their armor is made. And will only buy fabricated armor due to the time savings.

My point was, if your wizard is fabricating lots of armor, they are selling it at 50% price to NPC's per the selling gear rules. Therefore, adventurer's are not buying the equipment, and NPC's aren't constrained on time like adventurers are. This makes it reasonable for the DM to rule that NPC's might prefer handcrafted armor over fabricated armor, for purely fluff reasons and not make fabricated armor sales take over the world.

Why in the world would they sell something non-salvaged at less than market? They offer a special, premium service...they can charge MORE for it. Adventurers are basically pawning treasure.


Tarantula wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:

@EldonG: I think Tarantula is arguing from the basis of 'selling to a reseller' - i.e., the 'normal' method of selling recovered treasure, which yields on a 50% return.

My assumption was that in our hypothetical example, the wizard is actually setting himself up as a shop, not just using Fabricate and then taking the goods to the local shopkeeper and 'vendoring' it like a recovered treasure.

If you are setting up as a shop to sell full price. Congrats. You have successfully retired from adventuring and are now an NPC. Make a new character.

Or I work out the logistics\costs of owning the shop, hire someone to manage the shop as a salesman (perhaps through the Leadership feat?), fabricate items when I'm in town, and continue adventuring the rest of the time.

Saying, "You can either be an adventure OR a shop owner," is a false dichotomy. This apparent belief that as long as you're adventuring you can only sell anything for 50% regardless of other circumstances is not (as far as I'm aware) actually in the rules anywhere.


EldonG wrote:


Why in the world would they sell something non-salvaged at less than market? They offer a special, premium service...they can charge MORE for it. Adventurers are basically pawning treasure.
Xaratherus wrote:

Or I work out the logistics\costs of owning the shop, hire someone to manage the shop as a salesman (perhaps through the Leadership feat?), fabricate items when I'm in town, and continue adventuring the rest of the time.

Saying, "You can either be an adventure OR a shop owner," is a false dichotomy. This apparent belief that as long as you're adventuring you can only sell anything for 50% regardless of other circumstances is not (as far as I'm aware) actually in the rules anywhere.

There are no rules which allow a PC to sell items at full price. Any rules you make up for that are houserules.

"PRD wrote:

Selling Treasure

In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.

Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.

If you want to play a merchant, deal in trade goods, otherwise, things you sell are at half list price.

Who is able to sell at full price? NPC's. That is my way of allowing a PC to sell at full price. He retires, becomes a merchant NPC and now can sell at full price.


I did not recall the particular caveat about it including character-created items. Thank you for pointing that out

I understand that it's probably included for balance purposes; it's also an incredibly kludgey and moronically unrealistic way to balance it (not commenting on what you suggested, but the actual RAW).


Tarantula wrote:

There are no rules which allow a PC to sell items at full price. Any rules you make up for that are houserules.

"PRD wrote:

Selling Treasure

In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.

That's an interesting quote. (With some emphasis added by myself.)

"In general" implies that there may be specific instances where the half price sales are not guaranteed. Now when would that be the case?

There is, obviously intentionally, no rule dealing with the specific, and the situation involves NPC behavior, so the GM decides those specifics.

There's no RAW rule that actually guarantees profit.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Forseti: Traits, feats, and other abilities can change how much you can sell an item for. I'm pretty certain that, that is what "in general" is referring to.


I'm pretty much giving up on this thread.

@Eldong, @Aelryinth, plenty of people have suggested ways to mitigate the "profit" factor from fabricate uses from straight up house rules, to rewording the spell to be more explicit in the RAW. Why have you turned a blind eye to this?

If people are still going to complain about fabricate while simultaneously justifying the existing trade system, somehow, finding one excuse or another is a leap in RAI than bothering to understand the purpose of the spell.

Look here.

PRD wrote:

Selling Treasure

In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.

NOTHING here talks about your fabled middle-men. I can sell my equipment to an NPC adventurer, and he'll pay 50%, unless I have a trait, feat or ability that says otherwise, so quit making up excuses to suit your points.

I also don't care what middle-man justification you have to offer, because if you want to stress realism, that's not even close to how real-world markets work. Anyone who puts in effort in the real world, charges a profit margin when he passes the product along. Pathfinder crafters' best result is to make an item for 50% (sometimes more), and then, also sell it for 50%, max - in your own words:

Aelryinth wrote:
as for the 50% rule and demanding to sell at 90, great, just wait around for the buyer, and don't go adventuring.

...

Right, because compared to every other item in the market, people would rationally choose a more expensive one than mine? Heck, even the merchants who sell gear for 100% would buy them for me, because they'll just resell it, later, and still make a profit from that 10% margin. In most games, the party is selling their gear at 50% straight to the merchant, whose logical action is to give it a spit-shine and hang it up at twice the price he bought it for. There's never been a middle-man.

All this proves that the crafting system is explicitly designed to negate profits from making an actual item, and instead you roll the check for weekly wages, similar to a profession, if you want a profit. Crafting is pretty much a means to pay less than 100% of market price for gear, to a minimum of 50%, which is also the default price at which you're allowed to sell gear. I'll at least respect a game with some market haggling, but oi vey, this is never going to fly in real life. Without a proper trade system, I don't want to talk about magic getting into economics. I'm done with this topic.

I can't honestly see anything wrong with a wizard using Fabricate to create expensive gear, especially if you house rule 0 net profit (pay and acquire the raw material equal to 50% the market price of the final item), and make sure that all craft checks, except negligible ones, still have to be made. Pretty simple stuff.

In my games, a wizard better be able to turn cages, shackles and cell bars into weapons to outfit a mob, given a 5th level spell slot, assuming he knows how to build a weapon in the first place, and should the fighter wish to wear adamantine armour, sure the wizard's ability to cast a spell, and effectively turn a lengthy crafting process into 6 seconds is an insignificant implication on the economy, given an easy house rule to eliminate profit. Worse, it isn't even an effort in RAI, it's simple intuition on what the spell is here for, which I can guarantee you, is NOT intended to make a profit, ergo, eliminate it.

More importantly, this spell is due for any wizard who invests in enough ranks in Craft to be able to make the item, given time, anyway, as well as takes up the role as the party's crafter (which would be going into magical items much sooner than this). Don't forget, that after the item is made, they still have to spend 1 day/1000 gold to enchant it, so it's not like a mundane, mastercraft item, at level 9 (the earliest a PC can cast Fabricate), is going to cut it, when it comes down to what's balanced for that level (at least +3, with up to another +3 in special abilities).

I reiterate, plenty of intelligent fixes to the spell, house-rules, if need be, even RAI, have been proposed, and also 3p crafting variants to better suit-up with. The RAW needs better wording, absolutely, but the problem has been shown to be solvable with minimal effort. Do you still need to bring up the same issue, or do you have an issue that hasn't been addressed, because telling me the spell is broken isn't a problem so much as ignoring the suggested means to fix it.

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