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If you are playing morlocks and drow true to their nature, NO player character, from the spectrum of LG to CE should have any qualms about killing them. They are monsters, worshippers of a host of cruel gods, demon-consorts and worse. The drow are the epitome of evil, but thanks to the damage caused by Drizzt Do'Urden, people seem to think that drow are "misunderstood", rather than realizing that what makes him such an unlikely hero is that he comes from the worst of the worst sorts.
This is all irrelevant if you are playing a happy go lucky My Little Pathfinder edition, where there is no real evil, only victims of circumstance and tragic figures who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A magical world of rainbows and sunshine, where every villain can be turned to serve good, given the time and understanding that it was deprived of as a child.
The canon setting of Golarion has some horrifying stuff, just read up on the bestiary entries for ogres and goblins for confirmation, and the paladin has a holy mission to go forth and combat the terror that lurks out there, serving gods that embody the worst of sins, whose desire is to see the world filled with pestilence, death and ruin.
If the paladin shows mercy, and allows someone to keep their lives, HE becomes responsible for every act of evil that creature does from that point onward. In my game, letting an irredeemably evil creature live for any other purpose than being taken to a rightful trial, and subsequently imprisoned or magically atoned, would fall. It is a willful evil act to give aid to someone who will use said aid for evil.
"My Little Pathfinder"...LOL!
I love the tragic villain, and in my eyes, they ALL are. It's a tragedy that they're evil. It's horrific that they have a society based on the worst traits man has ever known. It's true that their culture made them the way they are...and it's a damn shame that genocide is the only real answer...well, maybe a few will rise above...but they damn well better get to it, 'cause though it may weigh heavy upon the conscience, those monsters need to friggin' die, so that those that actually live good and respectable lives can live.
*shrug*
It's a dirty job...but the bards write the tales of those that took it on.
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This is all irrelevant if you are playing a happy go lucky My Little Pathfinder edition, where there is no real evil, only victims of circumstance and tragic figures who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A magical world of rainbows and sunshine, where every villain can be turned to serve good, given the time and understanding that it was deprived of as a child.Counterpoint: Sarenrae, Goddess of Redemption. Her very existence in the Pathfinder setting demonstrates that "evil is evil by nature" is not 100% true.
I'm going to be playing a paladin of Sarenrae soon, here.
Let me give you a scenario. You're a paladin of Sarenrae. You've made the knowledge roll - these are morlocks. You understand their culture. Response?
There is a point made in here that is very valid in my opinion: There is no better judge than a paladin. No other person can ever hope to be given the same level of trust to give a fair judgment.
Think about it:
- The paladin can detect evil. Evil is the fruit of evil acts. People with an evil aura are guilty by their very nature, unless you make evil not really evil in your game.
- The paladin is also held responsible for his actions. He will NEVER be corrupt, or he will lose his powers, which a third party can easily identify by asking him to use lay on hands or similar.
- He will ensure that justice is done, if someone brings you in on false charges, he will likely want to look into it and catch whomever is doing the real evil acts.
- He will show mercy to those who REALLY are victims of circumstance; non-evil people who happened to get mixed up in something bad.
Heck, I would go so far as to say that in a perfect LG scenario, ONLY paladins should be allowed to mete out death penalties.
Pretty sure this is straw man in the other direction.Actually I will. What is it when the Paladin decides to show mercy to said evil critters(assuming they are detecting as evil)and lets them go. Then they regain their health and kill innocents and destroy the lives of good people? It's called foresight when you stop it before it can happen.
Just my opinion.
To be fair, that side has yet to answer my question: What would they have done? Without that, it's hard to avoid strawmanning. :P
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You attempt to redeem them at least once. Only followers of the Rough Beast get no chance to be redeemed.This is all irrelevant if you are playing a happy go lucky My Little Pathfinder edition, where there is no real evil, only victims of circumstance and tragic figures who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A magical world of rainbows and sunshine, where every villain can be turned to serve good, given the time and understanding that it was deprived of as a child.Counterpoint: Sarenrae, Goddess of Redemption. Her very existence in the Pathfinder setting demonstrates that "evil is evil by nature" is not 100% true.
I'm going to be playing a paladin of Sarenrae soon, here.
Let me give you a scenario. You're a paladin of Sarenrae. You've made the knowledge roll - these are morlocks. You understand their culture. Response?
...and how do you do that? I need specifics here. How long do you waste?
I told myself last night I was done with this thread... I guess I can't help myself when I see so much going on. A lot of good points being made and a lot of arguing just for the sake of arguing.
What's so funny about this thread is that we are still circling each other with our opinions on whether a paladin would be justified in doing what the paladin in the OP's group did.
I said it before a few pages ago and I'll say it again, it depends on the kind of paladin you are playing. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer here. There is no end-all be-all end to this debate other than to play the paladin to the best of your abilities.
You have to take into account all of the below:
1) Race of the Paladin
a) Who/what are their people's enemies if any?
b) Archetype of the Paladin - Different ones have different goals.
2) Deity of the Paladin - Different ones have different domains that they hold holy.
a) Dogma of the deity - are you a redeemer or a vanquisher of evil?
b) Codes/Tenets of the deity
3) Personal experiences of the paladin
a) Knowledge that detect evil is a tool to be used, but not the only thing to rely upon when issuing your judgement.
b) Every situation is different and sometimes sh*t happens where you are caught in the no-win/catch-22 where you have to make the best choice available.
4) Who the Player is
5) Who the GM is
I personally believe in this specific case that the Paladin in question actually adhered to the tenets of a Torag-following Dwarf Stonelord perfectly. You can agree or disagree as you see fit, but again your argument should be based in whole upon the facts of what happened in the scenario with all of the factors that determine what this particular paladin would be most likely to do.
Don't take it out of context and say "what if this was a Paladin of Sarenrae?" That doesn't cut it is all I'm saying. That makes it a straw-man as you replace one type of character with another, one with completely different goals/tenets/etc etc.
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I told myself last night I was done with this thread... I guess I can't help myself when I see so much going on. A lot of good points being made and a lot of arguing just for the sake of arguing.
What's so funny about this thread is that we are still circling each other with our opinions on whether a paladin would be justified in doing what the paladin in the OP's group did.
I said it before a few pages ago and I'll say it again, it depends on the kind of paladin you are playing. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer here. There is no end-all be-all end to this debate other than to play the paladin to the best of your abilities.
You have to take into account all of the below:
1) Race of the Paladin
a) Who/what are their people's enemies if any?
b) Archetype of the Paladin - Different ones have different goals.
2) Deity of the Paladin - Different ones have different domains that they hold holy.
a) Dogma of the deity - are you a redeemer or a vanquisher of evil?
b) Codes/Tenets of the deity
3) Personal experiences of the paladin
a) Knowledge that detect evil is a tool to be used, but not the only thing to rely upon when issuing your judgement.
b) Every situation is different and sometimes sh*t happens where you are caught in the no-win/catch-22 where you have to make the best choice available.
4) Who the Player is
5) Who the GM isI personally believe in this specific case that the Paladin in question actually adhered to the tenets of a Torag-following Dwarf Stonelord perfectly. You can agree or disagree as you see fit, but again your argument should be based in whole upon the facts of what happened in the scenario with all of the factors that determine what this particular paladin would be most likely to do.
Don't take it out of context and say "what if this was a Paladin of Sarenrae?" That doesn't cut it is all I'm saying. That makes it a straw-man as you replace one type of character with another, one with completely different goals/tenets/etc etc.
I'm cool with it being a paladin of Sarenrae, though it was not...and that IS a huge difference.
As I stated, I'll be playing a paladin of Sarenrae. How am I supposed to handle this exact situation? I'm on a quest...I know what morlocks are...these have already pinged as evil. Now...by my tenets, I have to redeem the redeemable...I think it's an utter strawman to say I have to take them in and babysit them 24/7...so...knowing morlocks, how do I redeem them?
Heck, lets go one step farther...make them human. What, exactly, do I NEED to do?
Just leaving the morlock in the cell is probably the best choice. The paladin is certainly not obliged to rescue evil monsters, and he was not responsible for its imprisonment in the first place. The creature might starve, but probably won't - other wandering monsters (friendly or not) could easily find it first. So the morlock has a chance of surviving, if its lucky.
That's no better than the paladin pulling a Terezi, flipping a coin, and using that to decide whether to send in Rocky or not. Either the morlocks will die or they won't, and it is the paladin's duty as the only present representative of Torag to decide--not nature's.
His god has sent him in to defend dwarfkind. Since these are enemies of dwarfkind, he must either show them mercy in their wretched state or give them a clean and sure death. His duty is not to just leave them to either die or get free to kill again.
In other words, leaving them is nothing but cowardice. It's trying to avoid the dilemma, but all it does is take both choices at once. By doing so, he simultaneously leaves several sentient creatures to die slowly and gives them a chance at escaping to murder more of his people--probably now inspired by vengeance.
He frees them or he doesn't. To try to seek a halfway between "murder" and "murder by negligence" (to use the two sides' arguments) is the least paladin-like thing said in this thread yet. It makes killing with an earth elemental look like glorious battle by comparison.
This is all irrelevant if you are playing a happy go lucky My Little Pathfinder edition, where there is no real evil, only victims of circumstance and tragic figures who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A magical world of rainbows and sunshine, where every villain can be turned to serve good, given the time and understanding that it was deprived of as a child.
Hey now, My Little Pony has plenty of truly evil villains. Don't make me bring out the cotton candy clouds.
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You attempt to redeem them at least once. Only followers of the Rough Beast get no chance to be redeemed.This is all irrelevant if you are playing a happy go lucky My Little Pathfinder edition, where there is no real evil, only victims of circumstance and tragic figures who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A magical world of rainbows and sunshine, where every villain can be turned to serve good, given the time and understanding that it was deprived of as a child.Counterpoint: Sarenrae, Goddess of Redemption. Her very existence in the Pathfinder setting demonstrates that "evil is evil by nature" is not 100% true.
I'm going to be playing a paladin of Sarenrae soon, here.
Let me give you a scenario. You're a paladin of Sarenrae. You've made the knowledge roll - these are morlocks. You understand their culture. Response?
I would say, you examine the morlock closely, ask them some questions, determine if you believe they seek redemption. If you are convinced that they do, you attempt to aid in their redemption. If you are not convinced that they seek redemption, you kill them swiftly and mercifully. Such is Sarenrae's creed. Any creature who truly seeks redemption should be given help in his quest. Any creature who remains unrepentant should be put to the sword. Now, within that you still have a lot of lee-way on how your paladin will decide if the creature is redeemable based on race, backstory, gullibility, and how far is "too far to be redeemed".
As stated, this was not a paladin of Sarenrae, but of Torag. And Torag thinks Sarenrae is kind of a sissy with that redemption stuff. Torag and Sarenrae are pretty good examples for showing how different the "right" actions for a paladin can be based solely on deity, though as ub3r_n3rd and I have said, there are a lot of different factors at play.
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You attempt to redeem them at least once. Only followers of the Rough Beast get no chance to be redeemed.This is all irrelevant if you are playing a happy go lucky My Little Pathfinder edition, where there is no real evil, only victims of circumstance and tragic figures who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A magical world of rainbows and sunshine, where every villain can be turned to serve good, given the time and understanding that it was deprived of as a child.Counterpoint: Sarenrae, Goddess of Redemption. Her very existence in the Pathfinder setting demonstrates that "evil is evil by nature" is not 100% true.
I'm going to be playing a paladin of Sarenrae soon, here.
Let me give you a scenario. You're a paladin of Sarenrae. You've made the knowledge roll - these are morlocks. You understand their culture. Response?
I would say, you examine the morlock closely, ask them some questions, determine if you believe they seek redemption. If you are convinced that they do, you attempt to aid in their redemption. If you are not convinced that they seek redemption, you kill them swiftly and mercifully. Such is Sarenrae's creed. Any creature who truly seeks redemption should be given help in his quest. Any creature who remains unrepentant should be put to the sword. Now, within that you still have a lot of lee-way on how your paladin will decide if the creature is redeemable based on race, backstory, gullibility, and how far is "too far to be redeemed".
As stated, this was not a paladin of Sarenrae, but of Torag. And Torag thinks Sarenrae is kind of a sissy with that redemption stuff. Torag and Sarenrae are pretty good examples for showing how different the "right" actions for a paladin can be based solely on deity, though as ub3r_n3rd and I have said, there are a lot of different factors at play.
I'm cool with that.
It's a morlock. It pings evil. I'm not taking it with me, I'm questing, and I assume this quest is more important than the morlock. What are my choices, here? I can free it, and let it return to morlock society. Redemption chance? Approaching zero, rapidly. Leave it chained? Approaching zero again.
In the long run, if it's already pinging evil...and not on the way to redeeming itself, the best I could possibly give it is to leave it for now, and come back for it later...assuming there is somewhere I could take it where it MIGHT be redeemed. If I'm there unknown to begin with, and possessed of any wisdom, I also realize that it's evil at this point...and if I leave it alive to tell others that I'll be back...and unless I know I can face whatever will be there when I return, I'm taking a serious risk.
It had better be damn convincing...and for some reason, I find that unlikely.
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This is all irrelevant if you are playing a happy go lucky My Little Pathfinder edition, where there is no real evil, only victims of circumstance and tragic figures who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A magical world of rainbows and sunshine, where every villain can be turned to serve good, given the time and understanding that it was deprived of as a child.
The canon setting of Golarion has some horrifying stuff, just read up on the bestiary entries for ogres and goblins for confirmation, and the paladin has a holy mission to go forth and combat the terror that lurks out there, serving gods that embody the worst of sins, whose desire is to see the world filled with pestilence, death and ruin.
If the paladin shows mercy, and allows someone to keep their lives, HE becomes responsible for every act of evil that creature does from that point onward. In my game, letting an irredeemably evil creature live for any other purpose than being taken to a rightful trial, and subsequently imprisoned or magically atoned, would fall. It is a willful evil act to give aid to someone who will use said aid for evil.
Please, play My Little Pony Fantasy 6, a Ff6 version, and say that about evil.
Heck, watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and see the episode with Discord.Evil is not nice and willing to be turned.
Luna was an exception as she was once good, but turned evil.
I'm cool with it being a paladin of Sarenrae, though it was not...and that IS a huge difference.
As I stated, I'll be playing a paladin of Sarenrae. How am I supposed to handle this exact situation? I'm on a quest...I know what morlocks are...these have already pinged as evil. Now...by my tenets, I have to redeem the redeemable...I think it's an utter strawman to say I have to take them in and babysit them 24/7...so...knowing morlocks, how do I redeem them?
Heck, lets go one step farther...make them human. What, exactly, do I NEED to do?
I'd go with the below as answered by Scaevola77
I would say, you examine the morlock closely, ask them some questions, determine if you believe they seek redemption. If you are convinced that they do, you attempt to aid in their redemption. If you are not convinced that they seek redemption, you kill them swiftly and mercifully. Such is Sarenrae's creed. Any creature who truly seeks redemption should be given help in his quest. Any creature who remains unrepentant should be put to the sword. Now, within that you still have a lot of lee-way on how your paladin will decide if the creature is redeemable based on race, backstory, gullibility, and how far is "too far to be redeemed".
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This is all irrelevant if you are playing a happy go lucky My Little Pathfinder edition, where there is no real evil, only victims of circumstance and tragic figures who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A magical world of rainbows and sunshine, where every villain can be turned to serve good, given the time and understanding that it was deprived of as a child.
The canon setting of Golarion has some horrifying stuff, just read up on the bestiary entries for ogres and goblins for confirmation, and the paladin has a holy mission to go forth and combat the terror that lurks out there, serving gods that embody the worst of sins, whose desire is to see the world filled with pestilence, death and ruin.
If the paladin shows mercy, and allows someone to keep their lives, HE becomes responsible for every act of evil that creature does from that point onward. In my game, letting an irredeemably evil creature live for any other purpose than being taken to a rightful trial, and subsequently imprisoned or magically atoned, would fall. It is a willful evil act to give aid to someone who will use said aid for evil.
Please, play My Little Pony Fantasy 6, a Ff6 version, and say that about evil.
Heck, watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and see the episode with Discord.
Evil is not nice and willing to be turned.Luna was an exception as she was once good, but turned evil.
ACK!
Torture! That's against ALL good codes! Noooooo!!! Please make it stop! ;)
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I'm cool with it being a paladin of Sarenrae, though it was not...and that IS a huge difference.
As I stated, I'll be playing a paladin of Sarenrae. How am I supposed to handle this exact situation? I'm on a quest...I know what morlocks are...these have already pinged as evil. Now...by my tenets, I have to redeem the redeemable...I think it's an utter strawman to say I have to take them in and babysit them 24/7...so...knowing morlocks, how do I redeem them?
Heck, lets go one step farther...make them human. What, exactly, do I NEED to do?
I'd go with the below as answered by Scaevola77
I would say, you examine the morlock closely, ask them some questions, determine if you believe they seek redemption. If you are convinced that they do, you attempt to aid in their redemption. If you are not convinced that they seek redemption, you kill them swiftly and mercifully. Such is Sarenrae's creed. Any creature who truly seeks redemption should be given help in his quest. Any creature who remains unrepentant should be put to the sword. Now, within that you still have a lot of lee-way on how your paladin will decide if the creature is redeemable based on race, backstory, gullibility, and how far is "too far to be redeemed".
Cool.
Paladins of Sarenrae are not required to be gullible. ;)
As I stated, I'll be playing a paladin of Sarenrae. How am I supposed to handle this exact situation? I'm on a quest...I know what morlocks are...these have already pinged as evil. Now...by my tenets, I have to redeem the redeemable...I think it's an utter strawman to say I have to take them in and babysit them 24/7...so...knowing morlocks, how do I redeem them?
And this is the grand question that often goes unanswered. It is very easy to say "he should redeem them", but figuring out how might be tricky. It is not as simple as kill vs. redeem. Redemption is often much harder to do.
Do you release them and trust that they will do good from now on? Well, in all likelihood that is condemning them to fail in their quest for redemption. They are currently evil, all their friends are evil, being evil is all they know. You generally can't just say "go and be good now", because it is extremely likely they will lapse.
Do you have them follow you, even if it is just in the short term? Sure, this is a decent solution in some cases, but if you continually amass people seeking redemption, and are amassing people faster than you are successfully redeeming them/dropping them off with someone else, soon your party will include a ton of hangers-on from all the people you are looking out for. Do paladins of Sarenrae basically get Leadership for free from all those followers?
Do you drop them off in someone else's care? Sure, if there is a place available. What if you are days/weeks travel from any town, and are on a tight timeline to save the world? What if all the nearest towns have intense hatred for morlocks and lack your perspective regarding redemption?
Leave it as it is and come back later? Probably an ok plan, as long as you don't think leaving it will cause you future problems, at which point you have to weigh the potential threat of leaving the morlock behind versus killing it or taking it with you.
I don't have an answer for how to redeem the morlocks. So much is variable based on what the morlocks say, what my particular paladin's backstory and view on life are, and what else is going on in the AP, etc. I think it is appropriate to want an answer, and I think those who argue for redemption at all costs (for any tricky paladin scenario) should be willing to ponder whether there is a feasible way to enact said redemption and accept that there may very well not be a practical way to redeem the prisoners.
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As I stated, I'll be playing a paladin of Sarenrae. How am I supposed to handle this exact situation? I'm on a quest...I know what morlocks are...these have already pinged as evil. Now...by my tenets, I have to redeem the redeemable...I think it's an utter strawman to say I have to take them in and babysit them 24/7...so...knowing morlocks, how do I redeem them?And this is the grand question that often goes unanswered. It is very easy to say "he should redeem them", but figuring out how might be tricky. It is not as simple as kill vs. redeem. Redemption is often much harder to do.
Do you release them and trust that they will do good from now on? Well, in all likelihood that is condemning them to fail in their quest for redemption. They are currently evil, all their friends are evil, being evil is all they know. You generally can't just say "go and be good now", because it is extremely likely they will lapse.
Do you have them follow you, even if it is just in the short term? Sure, this is a decent solution in some cases, but if you continually amass people seeking redemption, and are amassing people faster than you are successfully redeeming them/dropping them off with someone else, soon your party will include a ton of taggers-on from all the people you are looking out for. Do paladins of Sarenrae basically get Leadership for free from all those followers?
Do you drop them off in someone else's care? Sure, if there is a place available. What if you are days/weeks travel from any town, and are on a tight timeline to save the world? What if all the nearest towns have intense hatred for morlocks and lack your perspective regarding redemption?
Leave it as it is and come back later? Probably an ok plan, as long as you don't think leaving it will cause you future problems, at which point you have to weigh the potential threat of leaving the morlock behind versus killing it or taking it with you.
I don't have an answer for how to redeem the morlocks. So much is...
Just to add in the fun...what are the odds we don't share a common language? :)
Seriously, I'll give damn good odds that my far less rigid paladin of Sarenrae will end up killing them within a minute.
stuff...
We did argue the points, the three of us, in character. With the ninja and Balto pointing out that killing helpless individuals was the antithesis of 'good' and doing so without any due process or even evidence they'd committed 'evil' acts was the opposite of 'lawful'.
We did not prevail. The paladin reasoned that they (three morlocks and a drow) detected evil, they would perform evil acts if released, and it was therefore his duty to slay them (though he offered to do it in combat if we wanted to give them weapons; since it hardly could have been a fair fight, we didn't bite).
We backed down instead. I can't speak for the ninja, but Balto decided the consequences were on the head of the paladin and walked away.
In the end, the drow was spared because he bargained with the paladin - his life for information (so in fact, we, the party, finally have an inkling of what is going on in the module). The morlocks were killed out of hand without even being...
There was due process, the Paladin detected evil. That's enough. They are priests, or 5HD+. The got the evil aura from committing evil acts. His detection confirms it, and the law demands justice (execution). Now it didn't happen in a courtroom with a lawyer, but this isn't a CG society trying to live with each other.
The Paladin doesn't need some secular local beuracrat to empower him to enforce justice....his divine patron gives him that authority. He should work with them when they are available, and rendering justice as the Paly's god sees fit. But in their absence, or their malingering malfeasance, the Paly's god demands that his champion takes action.
IMO, most players tend to put modern day attitudes (and modern Western values of individual freedom) on their characters, which pushes most players' perception of morality closer to CG. We may live in modern rule-of-law societies, but they are societies that promote protection of individual freedoms like Andoran.
Singapore would be much...
I disagree 100%.
Detect Evil only reads in black and white, you don't know why something is evil.
Because it has a certain number of hit dice tells you nothing either. NPCs don't gain levels or HD through experience so saying that it committed all these evils acts is guess work. Those HD could have been gain through fighting off other monsters. You just don't know so telling people to smite first and ask questions later is not good advice.
This is not a paladin alignment thread. This thread is how to deal with a perceived violation of the paladin code of honor. Some back ground
My character is a chaotic neutral ninja.We are on book 5 of serpents skull we cleaned out a fortress and in the basement we found several cells against the wall and in those cells there were bodies and a few barely breathing drows, ulfins and morlocks.
Our paladin walks in detects evil and decides that because they are evil he should send his earth elemental in to the cell to kill every one. me and the good barbarian say wait a minute let’s just let them go they aren't a threat to us. The paladin refuses and kills all of them except a drow giving this big speech about how evil is a choice and he is not going to let a potential threat live let alone waste resources arming our enemies.Well we decided to back down so it didn't get into PVP.
I have decided my ninja will not aid the paladin in any way during combat.In character my main problem with it is that he is acting holy than though but when it comes to being a selfish jerk who will kill prisoners. In my mind he is no better than me. I have decided to write a letter to his superiors in game and make a case for a formal complaint. Has anybody ever done this successfully?
I have had an offline conversation with the player and we resolved any personal conflict.
He is a fallen paladin. No question about it. He should lose all class features until he pays the atonement fee. I would also change his alignment to lawful stupid.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
You don't kill helpless creatures just because they are evil. You are required to take them prisoner and hand them over to proper authorities.
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This is not a paladin alignment thread. This thread is how to deal with a perceived violation of the paladin code of honor. Some back ground
My character is a chaotic neutral ninja.We are on book 5 of serpents skull we cleaned out a fortress and in the basement we found several cells against the wall and in those cells there were bodies and a few barely breathing drows, ulfins and morlocks.
Our paladin walks in detects evil and decides that because they are evil he should send his earth elemental in to the cell to kill every one. me and the good barbarian say wait a minute let’s just let them go they aren't a threat to us. The paladin refuses and kills all of them except a drow giving this big speech about how evil is a choice and he is not going to let a potential threat live let alone waste resources arming our enemies.Well we decided to back down so it didn't get into PVP.
I have decided my ninja will not aid the paladin in any way during combat.In character my main problem with it is that he is acting holy than though but when it comes to being a selfish jerk who will kill prisoners. In my mind he is no better than me. I have decided to write a letter to his superiors in game and make a case for a formal complaint. Has anybody ever done this successfully?
I have had an offline conversation with the player and we resolved any personal conflict.
He is a fallen paladin. No question about it. He should lose all class features until he pays the atonement fee. I would also change his alignment to lawful stupid.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten
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..... umm no he isn't, not by a long shot. Especially because of what kind of paladin he is. He's a follower of Torag, he's a Dwarf Stonelord. Read up on the tenets, read up on what morlocks are, and read the rest of the thread.
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I think sometimes it's just pure laziness.
"Oh I don't want to have to do a side quests to bring them to justice or I simply couldn't be bothered trying to figure out what to do so I will just kill them and claim I am preventing evil from happening in the future."
...This is not a paladin alignment thread. This thread is how to deal with a perceived violation of the paladin code of honor. Some back ground
My character is a chaotic neutral ninja.We are on book 5 of serpents skull we cleaned out a fortress and in the basement we found several cells against the wall and in those cells there were bodies and a few barely breathing drows, ulfins and morlocks.
Our paladin walks in detects evil and decides that because they are evil he should send his earth elemental in to the cell to kill every one. me and the good barbarian say wait a minute let’s just let them go they aren't a threat to us. The paladin refuses and kills all of them except a drow giving this big speech about how evil is a choice and he is not going to let a potential threat live let alone waste resources arming our enemies.Well we decided to back down so it didn't get into PVP.
I have decided my ninja will not aid the paladin in any way during combat.In character my main problem with it is that he is acting holy than though but when it comes to being a selfish jerk who will kill prisoners. In my mind he is no better than me. I have decided to write a letter to his superiors in game and make a case for a formal complaint. Has anybody ever done this successfully?
I have had an offline conversation with the player and we resolved any personal conflict.
He is a fallen paladin. No question about it. He should lose all class features until he pays the atonement fee. I would also change his alignment to lawful stupid.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who
Now its already been proven that they can be read either way. There is no 100% RAW proof as to which way is the correct way.
I would bet you money that if he did that in most PFS games he would either fall or come very close.
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I think sometimes it's just pure laziness.
"Oh I don't want to have to do a side quests to bring them to justice or I simply couldn't be bothered trying to figure out what to do so I will just kill them and claim I am preventing evil from happening in the future."
A paladin *is* justice. Incarnate.
Just to add in the fun...what are the odds we don't share a common language? :)
Seriously, I'll give damn good odds that my far less rigid paladin of Sarenrae will end up killing them within a minute.
Indeed. As I said, it is entirely possible that redemption is not feasible, or that a paladin of Sarenrae will not be convinced the creature is seeking redemption. In which case, killing them may make the most sense, a fact that may very well distress some paladins.
At a certain point with the complexities of some of the paladin alignment challenge situations, there needs to be a realization that the paladin was given his power because his deity believes in his ability to act in accordance with their will. Sarenrae is not giving divine powers to any old schmuck, she is choosing someone who espouses many of the same views as her to act on her behalf. She is not watching the paladin like a hawk making sure everything goes perfectly, but trusting the paladin to do his best to act in her name appropriately. Falling is reserved for when the paladin is clearly doing something evil, not serving as a good representative (being dishonorable), and/or is clearly acting against her wishes. Sometimes there is no ideal answer for a situation, but the paladin is expected to do his best and should not be punished when his best falls short of a sparkly ideal resolution.
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Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
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Just to add in the fun...what are the odds we don't share a common language? :)
Seriously, I'll give damn good odds that my far less rigid paladin of Sarenrae will end up killing them within a minute.
Indeed. As I said, it is entirely possible that redemption is not feasible, or that a paladin of Sarenrae will not be convinced the creature is seeking redemption. In which case, killing them may make the most sense, a fact that may very well distress some paladins.
At a certain point with the complexities of some of the paladin alignment challenge situations, there needs to be a realization that the paladin was given his power because his deity believes in his ability to act in accordance with their will. Sarenrae is not giving divine powers to any old schmuck, she is choosing someone who espouses many of the same views as her to act on her behalf. She is not watching the paladin like a hawk making sure everything goes perfectly, but trusting the paladin to do his best to act in her name appropriately. Falling is reserved for when the paladin is clearly doing something evil, not serving as a good representative (being dishonorable), and/or is clearly acting against her wishes. Sometimes there is no ideal answer for a situation, but the paladin is expected to do his best and should not be punished when his best falls short of a sparkly ideal resolution.
On...the...MONEY. :)
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Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
It can't. The paladin's powers are granted by said deity.
This is not a paladin alignment thread. This thread is how to deal with a perceived violation of the paladin code of honor. Some back ground
My character is a chaotic neutral ninja.We are on book 5 of serpents skull we cleaned out a fortress and in the basement we found several cells against the wall and in those cells there were bodies and a few barely breathing drows, ulfins and morlocks.
Our paladin walks in detects evil and decides that because they are evil he should send his earth elemental in to the cell to kill every one. me and the good barbarian say wait a minute let’s just let them go they aren't a threat to us. The paladin refuses and kills all of them except a drow giving this big speech about how evil is a choice and he is not going to let a potential threat live let alone waste resources arming our enemies.Well we decided to back down so it didn't get into PVP.
I have decided my ninja will not aid the paladin in any way during combat.In character my main problem with it is that he is acting holy than though but when it comes to being a selfish jerk who will kill prisoners. In my mind he is no better than me. I have decided to write a letter to his superiors in game and make a case for a formal complaint. Has anybody ever done this successfully?
I have had an offline conversation with the player and we resolved any personal conflict.
He is a fallen paladin. No question about it. He should lose all class features until he pays the atonement fee. I would also change his alignment to lawful stupid.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten
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No.
Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
No.
It can't. The paladin's powers are granted by said deity.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Even so, when you look at the rules, a paladin must follow their code or lose all class features.
Deities grant the power for following them and the code. If you can't do both you fall. Actually there is no rule stating that displeasing your deity while following the code makes you fall.
Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Dude, there is no "one way" to play a paladin. You have to take into account everything that makes that paladin up. Don't be close-minded about it is what I'm saying. Every single paladin would handle the situation differently.
Each deity also has different codes, go read Faiths of Purity starting on page 26. Each one has paladin codes and tenets which go into much more detail as to what each specific god/goddess is about and what they expect out of their holy warriors. Just coming in here spouting the first page of the core RAW doesn't make you right. It doesn't make the paladin a cookie-cutter class with everyone playing the exact same way. Why do you think this thread and so many others like it have gone into well over 300+ posts? I'll tell you: it's because there are variants on how paladins can and SHOULD be played. Period.
It can't. The paladin's powers are granted by said deity.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Even so, when you look at the rules, a paladin must follow their code or lose all class features.
Deities grant the power for following them and the code. If you can't do both you fall. Actually there is no rule stating that displeasing your deity while following the code makes you fall.
No.
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It can't. The paladin's powers are granted by said deity.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Even so, when you look at the rules, a paladin must follow their code or lose all class features.
Deities grant the power for following them and the code. If you can't do both you fall. Actually there is no rule stating that displeasing your deity while following the code makes you fall.
The code varies as per the deity. We've been over that.
No.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
The rules state that if you break your code you fall. It makes no mention of exemptions granted by your deity. Those do not exist.
The code varies as per the deity. We've been over that.It can't. The paladin's powers are granted by said deity.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Even so, when you look at the rules, a paladin must follow their code or lose all class features.
Deities grant the power for following them and the code. If you can't do both you fall. Actually there is no rule stating that displeasing your deity while following the code makes you fall.
Not in the class rule section. No where does it mention that your code can change based on your deity.
Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Dude, there is no "one way" to play a paladin. You have to take into account everything that makes that paladin up. Don't be close-minded about it is what I'm saying. Every single paladin would handle the situation differently.
Each deity also has different codes, go read Faiths of Purity starting on page 26. Each one has paladin codes and tenets which go into much more detail as to what each specific god/goddess is about and what they expect out of their holy warriors. Just coming in here spouting the first page of the core RAW doesn't make you right. It doesn't make the paladin a cookie-cutter class with everyone playing the exact same way. Why do you think this thread and so many others like it have gone into well over 300+ posts? I'll tell you: it's because there are variants on how paladins can and SHOULD be played. Period.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
Do you see any mention of that changing because of the Paladin's deity?
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The rules state that if you break your code you fall. It makes no mention of exemptions granted by your deity. Those do not exist.No.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Do you not understand that the game is built on 'the specific always overrules the general'?
Not in the class rule section. No where does it mention that your cod e can change based on your deity.The code varies as per the deity. We've been over that.It can't. The paladin's powers are granted by said deity.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Even so, when you look at the rules, a paladin must follow their code or lose all class features.
Deities grant the power for following them and the code. If you can't do both you fall. Actually there is no rule stating that displeasing your deity while following the code makes you fall.
No.
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Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Should he have healed up the morlock, given it a weapon, and then slew it in combat? Why? The morlock likely has absolutely no chance winning, in which case you are setting up a farce combat in order to create a facade of honor. This almost seems evil to me, as you are deliberately setting up the morlock to suffer more.
So tell me, what is intrinsically and indelibly honorable about giving a creature false hope and prolonging its suffering?
Certain paladins may believe strongly that every creature should be given a trial-by-combat, in which case they might believe killing a helpless creature is dishonorable. Others may be more in the lines of thinking that the creature should have a merciful end.
Again, I posit that it can depend a lot on deity:
Torag - probably doesn't care much
Sarenrae - definitely falling from her grace if you kill the creature in any way but a swift execution
Iomedae - probably favors a trial-by-combat
Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
How honorable is it to fight an enemy 4 on 1?
Not in the class rule section. No where does it mention that your code can change based on your deity.The code varies as per the deity. We've been over that.It can't. The paladin's powers are granted by said deity.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Even so, when you look at the rules, a paladin must follow their code or lose all class features.
Deities grant the power for following them and the code. If you can't do both you fall. Actually there is no rule stating that displeasing your deity while following the code makes you fall.
Have you ever heard of errata or splat books? You do know that anything written after the original is supposed to supersede (in most cases) the old and add in more stuff right?
I really suggest you go read the new stuff before coming in and preaching your holier than thou rhetoric using the older RAW. That's not the way to debate or convince people who have read the other books and seemingly have more knowledge than you. Just sayin'.
Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Should he have healed up the morlock, given it a weapon, and then slew it in combat? Why? The morlock likely has absolutely no chance winning, in which case you are setting up a farce combat in order to create a facade of honor. This almost seems evil to me, as you are deliberately setting up the morlock to suffer more.
He should take helpless creatures prisoner and turn them over to the proper authorities. Even if he give the morlock a sword. If the morlock does not try to fight the paladin, he can in no way honorably kill it.
Do you not understand that the game is built on 'the specific always overrules the general'?The rules state that if you break your code you fall. It makes no mention of exemptions granted by your deity. Those do not exist.No.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
So deities have special description saying how paladins who worship them do X instead of Y in Z situation?
He should take helpless creatures prisoner and turn them over to the proper authorities. Even if he give the morlock a sword. If the morlock does not try to fight the paladin, he can in no way honorably kill it.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Should he have healed up the morlock, given it a weapon, and then slew it in combat? Why? The morlock likely has absolutely no chance winning, in which case you are setting up a farce combat in order to create a facade of honor. This almost seems evil to me, as you are deliberately setting up the morlock to suffer more.
No.
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Should he have healed up the morlock, given it a weapon, and then slew it in combat? Why? The morlock likely has absolutely no chance winning, in which case you are setting up a farce combat in order to create a facade of honor. This almost seems evil to me, as you are deliberately setting up the morlock to suffer more.
So tell me, what is intrinsically and indelibly honorable about giving a creature false hope and prolonging its suffering?
Certain paladins may believe strongly that every creature should be given a trial-by-combat, in which case they might believe killing a helpless creature is dishonorable. Others may be more in the lines of thinking that the creature should have a merciful end.
Again, I posit that it can depend a lot on deity:
Torag - probably doesn't care much
Sarenrae - definitely falling from her grace if you kill the creature in any way but a swift execution
Iomedae - probably favors a trial-by-combat
The nurse the morlock plan is even funnier than that. What if it DOES win? Then you've nursed evil back from the brink and unleashed it upon the world, with one less Paladin to defend it.
Good job breaking it, hero!
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So deities have special description saying how paladins who worship them do X instead of Y in Z situation?Do you not understand that the game is built on 'the specific always overrules the general'?The rules state that if you break your code you fall. It makes no mention of exemptions granted by your deity. Those do not exist.No.Killing a helpless opponent is dishonorable. It doesn't matter what your deities tenets are.
"A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features"
Your code supersedes commands from your deity. Even if you follow your deities commands, but break your code, you fall.
Yes.