This is not a paladin alignment thread. This thread is how to deal with a perceived violation of the paladin code of honor. Some back ground
My character is a chaotic neutral ninja.
We are on book 5 of serpents skull we cleaned out a fortress and in the basement we found several cells against the wall and in those cells there were bodies and a few barely breathing drows, ulfins and morlocks.
Our paladin walks in detects evil and decides that because they are evil he should send his earth elemental in to the cell to kill every one. me and the good barbarian say wait a minute let’s just let them go they aren't a threat to us. The paladin refuses and kills all of them except a drow giving this big speech about how evil is a choice and he is not going to let a potential threat live let alone waste resources arming our enemies.
Well we decided to back down so it didn't get into PVP.
I have decided my ninja will not aid the paladin in any way during combat.
In character my main problem with it is that he is acting holy than though but when it comes to being a selfish jerk who will kill prisoners. In my mind he is no better than me. I have decided to write a letter to his superiors in game and make a case for a formal complaint. Has anybody ever done this successfully?
I have had an offline conversation with the player and we resolved any personal conflict.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sounds like grounds for falling.
I hate the Paladin class and that stupid code with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns that have had white phosphorous dropped in them ...
But yes, that's definitely an evil act. Evil is a choice, yes, but so is good. A simple act of kindness could redeem any and all of them. He committed cold-blooded murder.
Honestly, this would be one of the few situations where I would resort to PvP, as he'd have to go through my guy to get to them, and I'd be willing to bet the barbarian would join in.
Congratulations, you have a Lawful Stupid paladin on your hands.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not trying to open a can of worms or poke any bears...but just curious, why is your chaotic neutral ninja so up in arms about this? If alignment is being taken as seriously as you seem to be taking it with this paladin, why is your character so involved, given that he should be taking a much more free wheeling stance on such things? Are you certain you as a person dont object and are projecting that into the situation? Just a question I ask...not judging.
Beyond that
It seems like the Paladin's behaivor is an issue to be taken up between that player and the DM if your looking for a tangible result vis a vie falling. After all the moral issue is between that man and his god. Your personal objection is a nice RP and all but sending a letter to his superiors doesnt really mean anything tangible. They are not the ones who pass judgement..his powers are derived straight from his connection to his deity...and I would imagine that a few too many of these type incidents and it will take care of itself? Maybe if you want to petition someone you should pray? It's a more direct route to the one you want to lodge you complaint with.
1) yes the prisoners are evil, but do they detect as evil?
2) they are helpless and defenseless
3) did not even give them a trial, or offer redemption
In my game, fallen paladin.
|
Depends on cultural background and what is in his paladin's code. If his code specifically addresses treatment of prisoners (most do), then most likely he has committed a violation and is in danger of falling. If the code does not address this, the culturally accepted definition of good will most likely apply. If killing enemy prisoners is culturally acceptable and not considered evil, then everything is OK. Otherwise we're looking at the same situation as violating the paladin's code.
Sounds like your GM should be involved in discussion, BTW.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is not a paladin alignment thread...
Our paladin walks in detects evil and decides that because [the prisoners] are evil he should send his earth elemental in to the cell to kill every one. Me and the good barbarian say wait a minute let’s just let them go they aren't a threat to us. The paladin refuses and kills all of them except a drow giving this big speech about how evil is a choice...All right. This is not a paladin alignment thread: you just want to know how you, as a fellow player, should react to the paladin's actions.
My advice - given your alignment and class - is to use the gambit TVTropes refers to as "Your Approval Fills Me With Shame." Congratulate the paladin often on having the foresight to murder a bunch of helpless people. Be sure to mention that even you - a trained killer with no pretensions toward lawfulness or benevolence - thought that was "ruthless" and "pragmatic." If any situations come up where information the prisoners could have told you would have been useful, say, "I sure wish you'd allowed me to torture information out of those prisoners before you had them smashed to death." Mind you, a little of this goes a long way. If he loses his paladin powers, be sympathetic and supportive.
I like it.
"When Satan thinks you've gone too far ... you've gone too far." -- Michael J. Nelson, MST3K (episode uncertain)| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The prisoners are bound/helpless. The Paladin's Code likely prevents him from murdering them (which is what he'd be doing in this scenario). This would be specific to the Paladin's order, the actual makeup of the code, and the DM's ruling. In my game, as well, it would result in a Fallen Paladin. Or at least the threat thereof.
That being said, I have a major issue with your scenario: It seems like you're metagaming to me.
Your Ninja is CN. Why would he care enough to write a letter to the Paladin's superiors? Would he even know how, when, or where to accomplish this? Where exactly did he learn the protocol? Why would he even care enough to stop working with him? Does it affect your Ninja personally that the Paladin killed some random prisoners? Wouldn't the duality of a goody-two-shoes murdering someone in cold blood when the rage/desire struck APPEAL to your chaotic nature?
The real tell here is the statement "I have decided that my Ninja will not aid the Paladin..."
YOU decided this. Based on metagaming principles and a misapplication/misunderstanding of your own alignment.
NOT your Ninja. NOT his principles. NOT his experience. Yours.
Be careful treading this path. Although I'm glad you and the Paladin's player have no beef and have talked offline about the in-game drama. Good call on your part.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sounds to me like the Paladin acts holier-than-thou in word and attitude, but not in deed, and the Ninja wants to knock him off his high horse.
Memo - Me: If I ever run PF, ban Paladins.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
A Paladin of Torag is literally commanded to kill all his enemies with the exception of killing them later if they could be useful for information.
Against my people's enemy I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them and scatter their families.
Torag is not a god of mercy, and clearly not to be trifled with.
This shows that if he is a follower of Torag, not only is the Paladin justified at killing these beings (if they are evil), but he is commanded by Torag to do so, and failure to do so could cause him to lose his powers.
Ultimately, it's up to the Paladin's diety (the GM) to decide whether or not this would cause him to fall. If the GM didn't bat an eye at it, you should probably just let it go.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some gods are more pragmatic than others, and evil is evil. It might not break a code, after all.
That's an extreme case, but it's one the DM could certainly take, if the paladin's god was that sort.
At any rate, if I was playing a CN and a paladin did this sort of thing, I'd be buying his drinks.
I'm not seeing anything in code of conduct or LG that opposes what happened. It depends on how you play your paladin.
BUT: you have to actually have an evil aura to detect as evil, so how did he know they were evil?
In the end, it's the GM's decision, but, as a player, I would totally guilt trip him anyway.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, what is everyone's preoccupation with, "Hey look, it's a Paladin. Wait...HE DID SOMETHING! LET'S MAKE HIM FALL!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The prisoners are bound/helpless. The Paladin's code prevents him from murdering them (which is what he'd be doing in this scenario). In my game, as well, it would result in a Fallen Paladin.
That being said, I have a major issue with your scenario: It seems like you're metagaming to me.
Your Ninja is CN. Why would he care enough to write a letter to the Paladin's superiors? Would he even know how, when, or where to accomplish this? Where exactly did he learn the protocol? Why would he even care enough to stop working with him? Does it affect your Ninja personally that the Paladin killed some random prisoners? Wouldn't the duality of a goody-two-shoes murdering someone in cold blood when the rage/desire struck APPEAL to your chaotic nature?
The real tell here is the statement "I have decided that my Ninja will not aid the Paladin..."
YOU decided this. Based on metagaming principles and a misapplication/misunderstanding of your own alignment.
NOT your Ninja. NOT his principles. NOT his experience. Yours.
Be careful treading this path. Although I'm glad you and the Paladin's player have no beef and have talked offline about the in-game drama. Good call on your part.
My character doesn't like the paladin plain and simple because of his actions in the past we have had to fight more bad guys than we needed instead of letting me run in there and kill sleeping guys. a Drow showed up and held a knife to his throat and tried to reason with him in undercommon. Because the paladin didn't speak the language and he said he can detect evil he decided to attack waking up the whole compound and forcing us to fight 30+ guys for no reason. putting me in danger because I was in a bunk full of sleeping bad guys.
my character is a ninja but even he has rules and has been in jail has part of his back story. He is sympathetic to the criminal element if you will he was going to let these prisoners go because quite simply because he could. And then along comes a dwarf stone lord paladin who just passes judgment with out even asking questions. Yeah normally I would not care but you know what this guy pretends to be all holy but deep inside he is just like me a cold blooded killer. Proving to me there is no such thing as a good person deep inside we are all selfish killers. He challenged my authority plain and simple now I plan to get him kicked out of his paladin club not because I care that he killed a few guys but because I can. I don't follow a creed or rule I do not pretend to hide behind a code he does. That makes him a hypocrite and now I will destroy him because we don't need him in the party he does not bring any value except for condescension ( all how my character thinks)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, what is everyone's preoccupation with, "Hey look, it's a Paladin. Wait...HE DID SOMETHING! LET'S MAKE HIM FALL!"
I think it stems from the old editions where Paladins got lots of nice bonuses for being so goody-good. So the "One strike and you're out" attitude carries over. But in Pathfinder, a Paladin's abilities are much more balanced against the other classes, rendering this thinking inert.
But, as everyone (including the OP) has said, this is not a Paladin Should Fall thread. This is a How Should My Ninja React thread.
And, I maintain that the Ninja's player is metagaming. I honestly don't think a CN Ninja is going to care about some prisoners' deaths other than a sarcastic ribbing or a mental note to not project as evil else risk Death By Paladin.
Unless the prisoners are related to him by blood, by race, or the Ninja suffered some kind of torture in captivity, triggering some kind of PTSD situation, I don't think the reaction is very "accurate".
|
|
The prisoners are bound/helpless. The Paladin's code prevents him from murdering them (which is what he'd be doing in this scenario). In my game, as well, it would result in a Fallen Paladin.
That being said, I have a major issue with your scenario: It seems like you're metagaming to me.
Your Ninja is CN. Why would he care enough to write a letter to the Paladin's superiors? Would he even know how, when, or where to accomplish this? Where exactly did he learn the protocol? Why would he even care enough to stop working with him? Does it affect your Ninja personally that the Paladin killed some random prisoners? Wouldn't the duality of a goody-two-shoes murdering someone in cold blood when the rage/desire struck APPEAL to your chaotic nature?
The real tell here is the statement "I have decided that my Ninja will not aid the Paladin..."
YOU decided this. Based on metagaming principles and a misapplication/misunderstanding of your own alignment.
NOT your Ninja. NOT his principles. NOT his experience. Yours.
Be careful treading this path. Although I'm glad you and the Paladin's player have no beef and have talked offline about the in-game drama. Good call on your part.
My character doesn't like the paladin plain and simple because of his actions in the past we have had to fight more bad guys than we needed instead of letting me run in there and kill sleeping guys. a Drow showed up and held a knife to his throat and tried to reason with him in undercommon. Because the paladin didn't speak the language and he said he can detect evil he decided to attack waking up the whole compound and forcing us to fight 30+ guys for no reason. putting me in danger because I was in a bunk full of sleeping bad guys.
my character is a ninja but even he has rules and has been in jail has part of his back story. He is sympathetic to the criminal element if you will he was going to let these prisoners go because quite simply because he could. And...
All well and good, but if he's a Dwarf Stone Lord, that letter will probably get him a commendation.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just giggle at the notion of a CN ninja adventuring with a LG paladin in the first place. Comedy gold at nearly every turn...
I see two separate issues in the event the OP described:
1. How do the Ninja and the Paladin handle their personal differences? Obviously these two characters don't see eye-to-eye on many things. They should work this out in-character so that they either find the middle ground where they can work together, walk away and no longer associate with each other, or come to blows and let "might make right and the gods can sort it out" be their best answer. But if there is any chance for this part of characters to succeed, these characters need to resolve their differences now - even if that means one of the players might have to roll up a new character (assuming the in-character differences are too big to be resolved, in which case one of the characters would probably leave, voluntarily or not).
2. The Paladin's standing with his deity. This is up to the DM to figure out, not the other players at the table. The DM should decide whether the Paladin behaved in accordance with his deity's restrictions and act accordingly. As a player, I might privately nudge the DM to remind him to think about it, but that is the farthest I would go.
Finally, As a player, if I had a character who strongly disliked another character, as the Ninja seems to strongly dislike the Paladin, I would resolve this in-character. How I do this depends on what I'm playing. I might just have my character leave. Or I might have my character give a rousing speech to the rest of the group about how dangerous it is to keep traveling with the character I don't like. I might secretly try to sway the rest of the group to my point of view then kick out the character I don't like. I might kill the character I don't like. What I do would be based upon my character's personality and his perception of the rest of the characters in the party.
What I would not do is have my character continue risking his life, day after day in the most dangerous profession imaginable (adventuring), all the while deliberately making decisions that might get him killed. For example, the OP said "I have decided my ninja will not aid the paladin in any way during combat." My characters would never do that - teammates in a life or death situation who let each other die are risking that they will die too. It's not worth it. If my character can't work together with his team, he'll find a new team or get rid of the problem in the team that he already has.
(side note, everything I said refers to "in character" actions - I would not turn this into an issue between players - if I don't like the players at my table, that's an entirely different problem)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
All well and good, but if he's a Dwarf Stone Lord, that letter will probably get him a commendation.
Valid point. We didn't know he was a Stone Lord until later. The Original Post just said "Paladin". More often than not, that means no killing prisoners based solely off of race/detect evil results. His particular faith is much less picky.
My character doesn't like the paladin plain and simple because of his actions in the past we have had to fight more bad guys than we needed instead of letting me run in there and kill sleeping guys.
If your Ninja doesn't know how a Paladin would react to your murdering sleeping people (were those people evil? Did they detect as evil? This Stone Lord that you frequently play with seems to use that as a judgement call. A fellow party member would know this. A Ninja, especially, would be intelligent enough to count on it and either alter tactics or simply do the deed and tell the Paladin later (or not at all, preferably).
a Drow showed up and held a knife to his throat and tried to reason with him in undercommon. Because the paladin didn't speak the language and he said he can detect evil he decided to attack waking up the whole compound and forcing us to fight 30+ guys for no reason. putting me in danger because I was in a bunk full of sleeping bad guys.
To a Paladin, someone babbling in a foreign language and holding a knife to your throat isn't reasoning with him. It's threatening him. Which the Paladin, ESPECIALLY a Dwarven Stone Lord, rightly reacted with an attack. And Paladins don't attack quietly. That wasn't for no reason, that was a battle call to him. Especially if there was no one there to translate for the Pally.
my character is a ninja but even he has rules and has been in jail has part of his back story. He is sympathetic to the criminal element if you will he was going to let these prisoners go because quite simply because he could. And then along comes a dwarf stone lord paladin who just passes judgment with out even asking questions. Yeah normally I would not care but you know what this guy pretends to be all holy but deep inside he is just like me a cold blooded killer. Proving to me there is no such thing as a good person deep inside we are all selfish killers. He challenged my authority plain and simple now I plan to get him kicked out of his paladin club not because I care that he killed a few guys but because I can. I don't follow a creed or rule I do not pretend to hide behind a code he does. That makes him a hypocrite and now I will destroy him because we don't need him in the party he does not bring any value except for condescension ( all how my character thinks)
And I would have believed this as your one valid point except for the "he challenged my authority plain and simple now I plan to get him kicked out of his paladin club not because I care that he killed a few guys but because I can".
That is not the thinking of a CN Ninja. That is the thinking of a player who is frustrated because the Paladin is "interfering" with his chosen play style.
What "authority" does your Ninja have in the party, exactly? What CN character develops long-term plans and then sticks to them instead of acting in the heat of the moment? I will admit that yours is a Ninja, and they are motivated and have a drive and focus to what they do, but what exactly is his attention span? How exactly do you play your definition of CN? Because it seems to vastly differ from mine.
You need to ask yourself how much your Ninja knows about Paladin orders, especially the specific one the Stone Lord belongs to, and the protocol for filing formal complaints. Does he even know if this is against the Dwarf's "code"?
It's still my belief that you're metagaming and the Paladin is in-character. In fact, I may favorite this thread just to show some of my new players the textbook definition of both and how to avoid these scenarios.
All well and good, but if he's a Dwarf Stone Lord, that letter will probably get him a commendation.
Indeed. As I pointed out, he's doing exactly what he should by killing evil prisoners. Torag would give him a holy high five and make his smites extra smitey the next day.
As for what your CN character should do about it? Nothing, he probably wouldn't care in all reality. Now, your character can be upset about the paladin putting you in danger in other situaiton, and in character, you should say somethign to him about it. Ask him not to do that.
However, in the occasion you describe where an assailant sneaks up behind him and puts a dagger to his neck and starts speaking gibberish he doesn't understand, our faithful paladin has one option. Kill him. It is unfornunate circumstances that your character got caught in crossfire, but that is the risk of being the sneaky one running off on their own.
All well and good, but if he's a Dwarf Stone Lord, that letter will probably get him a commendation.Indeed. As I pointed out, he's doing exactly what he should by killing evil prisoners. Torag would give him a holy high five and make his smites extra smitey the next day.
As for what your CN character should do about it? Nothing, he probably wouldn't care in all reality. Now, your character can be upset about the paladin putting you in danger in other situaiton, and in character, you should say somethign to him about it. Ask him not to do that.
However, in the occasion you describe where an assailant sneaks up behind him and puts a dagger to his neck and starts speaking gibberish he doesn't understand, our faithful paladin has one option. Kill him. It is unfornunate circumstances that your character got caught in crossfire, but that is the risk of being the sneaky one running off on their own.
Exactly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not going to read through the entire thread here so if my comments are redundant, I apologize. But below are my thoughts on what is going on here.
This is not a paladin alignment thread. This thread is how to deal with a perceived violation of the paladin code of honor. Some back ground - My character is a chaotic neutral ninja.
Why do you care? You are a CN ninja, stop meta-gaming. The paladin code is between HIM and his GOD (See: The Paladin's Player and the DM)
We are on book 5 of serpents skull we cleaned out a fortress and in the basement we found several cells against the wall and in those cells there were bodies and a few barely breathing drows, ulfins and morlocks.
Our paladin walks in detects evil and decides that because they are evil he should send his earth elemental in to the cell to kill every one. me and the good barbarian say wait a minute let’s just let them go they aren't a threat to us. The paladin refuses and kills all of them except a drow giving this big speech about how evil is a choice and he is not going to let a potential threat live let alone waste resources arming our enemies.
Again, no idea why you (as a CN) character care about what the Paladin does as long as it doesn't affect your character. If they are evil and he wants to play judge, jury, and executioner that is up to him and what happens is between him and his god. The paladin has his own code to follow and that doesn't involve you and/or the barbarian.
Well we decided to back down so it didn't get into PVP. I have decided my ninja will not aid the paladin in any way during combat.
That's rather selfish of you to do, you are taking a meta-game stance for something that a CN character probably wouldn't care about at all. To me this is just silly.
In character my main problem with it is that he is acting holy than though but when it comes to being a selfish jerk who will kill prisoners. In my mind he is no better than me. I have decided to write a letter to his superiors in game and make a case for a formal complaint. Has anybody ever done this successfully?
The paladin is holier than you, but I get what you are saying he is being arrogant, but you are still meta-gaming to the extreme because you are putting your personal feelings about how to play a paladin's code into your PC's personality.
I have had an offline conversation with the player and we resolved any personal conflict.
It sounds like you still have deep-seeded personal feelings with the other player because of the passive aggressive manner in which you are trying to handle an in-game situation that really wouldn't affect your PC one way or the other. Bottom line is that you need to play your character's alignment and let the other player play his where he is answerable to his church/deity. If you have issues with how that other person is playing their alignment talk to them out of game or bring up the discussion with your GM. There may be some other things you don't know about in-game that the GM and the other Player are doing. Perhaps they are trying to get a fallen paladin or other kind of plot hook going.
|
|
My character doesn't like the paladin plain and simple because of his actions in the past we have had to fight more bad guys than we needed instead of letting me run in there and kill sleeping guys.If your Ninja doesn't know how a Paladin would react to your murdering sleeping people (were those people evil? Did they detect as evil? This Stone Lord that you frequently play with seems to use that as a judgement call. A fellow party member would know this. A Ninja, especially, would be intelligent enough to count on it and either alter tactics or simply do the deed and tell the Paladin later (or not at all, preferably).
a Drow showed up and held a knife to his throat and tried to reason with him in undercommon. Because the paladin didn't speak the language and he said he can detect evil he decided to attack waking up the whole compound and forcing us to fight 30+ guys for no reason. putting me in danger because I was in a bunk full of sleeping bad guys.To a Paladin, someone babbling in a foreign language and holding a knife to your throat isn't reasoning with him. It's threatening him. Which the Paladin, ESPECIALLY a Dwarven Stone Lord, rightly reacted with an attack. And Paladins don't attack quietly. That wasn't for no reason, that was a battle call to him. Especially if there was no one there to translate for the Pally.
my character is a ninja but even he has rules and has been in jail has part of his back story. He is sympathetic to the criminal element if you will he was going to let these prisoners go because quite simply because he could. And then along comes a dwarf stone lord paladin who just passes judgment with out even asking questions. Yeah normally I would not care but you know what this guy pretends to be all holy but deep inside he is just like me a cold blooded killer. Proving to me there is no such thing as a good person deep inside we are all selfish killers. He challenged my authority plain...
Eh...I don't see it so much as meta-gaming...when your schtick is stealth...and you're a borderline criminal anyhow...I can see how that can be real irritating.
I don't think the letter is the right response, though. I just can't see it helping.
|
|
All well and good, but if he's a Dwarf Stone Lord, that letter will probably get him a commendation.Indeed. As I pointed out, he's doing exactly what he should by killing evil prisoners. Torag would give him a holy high five and make his smites extra smitey the next day.
As for what your CN character should do about it? Nothing, he probably wouldn't care in all reality. Now, your character can be upset about the paladin putting you in danger in other situaiton, and in character, you should say somethign to him about it. Ask him not to do that.
However, in the occasion you describe where an assailant sneaks up behind him and puts a dagger to his neck and starts speaking gibberish he doesn't understand, our faithful paladin has one option. Kill him. It is unfornunate circumstances that your character got caught in crossfire, but that is the risk of being the sneaky one running off on their own.
"Extra smitey"...LOL! I likey. ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You should just prank him. Put his hand in warm water, dye his beard pink, that kind of stuff. He'll surely just chuckle at these lighthearted comedic hijinks and not try to physically retaliate at all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with literally everything "ub3r n3rd" said. You are metagaming and letting that affect your character's decisions.
A Chaotic Neutral Ninja (especially that class, dammit) is not really going to care that a Paladin killed a few prisoners that were clinging on to life anyways. Hell, that's more drama for you to avoid.
Your character being a former prisoner might have initial umbrage with the Paladin slaughtering the helpless, but that should really only have caused you to shrug and say "Paladins will be Paladins", shake his head, and internally laugh over the silliness and hypocrisy of the class in general (which is why YOU aren't a Paladin". Then the Ninja turns attention to the next task. He certainly wouldn't harbor a grudge.
Are you seeing the difference between the Paladin playing in character and you metagaming?
Because that's really the point of my argument, and if you don't (or won't) see it, then my words are lost and wasted.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actions determine alignment, not the other way around. A CN character can act however the player desires; he may be on his way to an alignment shift in the process.
Classes do not come with baked-in personalities. The fact that he is a ninja is irrelevant.
|
|
I agree with literally everything "ub3r n3rd" said. You are metagaming and letting that affect your character's decisions.
A Chaotic Neutral Ninja (especially that class, dammit) is not really going to care that a Paladin killed a few prisoners that were clinging on to life anyways. Hell, that's more drama for you to avoid.
Your character being a former prisoner might have initial umbrage with the Paladin slaughtering the helpless, but that should really only have caused you to shrug and say "Paladins will be Paladins", shake his head, and internally laugh over the silliness and hypocrisy of the class in general (which is why YOU aren't a Paladin". Then the Ninja turns attention to the next task. He certainly wouldn't harbor a grudge.
Are you seeing the difference between the Paladin playing in character and you metagaming?
Because that's really the point of my argument, and if you don't (or won't) see it, then my words are lost and wasted.
How about 'All that damn noise could have gotten me killed!'. That's the part where I can see a real BIG issue. CNs can definitely hold a grudge. That's an alignment that screams it, to me.
|
I will simply echo what others have said, after reading the whole thread up until now.
Your CN ninja has no reason to care about this situation or get involved. How he plays his paladin is between him, his DM, or his church. The fact that he's a paladin of Torag complicates this further, but in ANY event, your alignment should make it so that you would not care AT ALL about any of that.
Your choice to not aid the paladin in combat is not what a CN character would do - they would make use of allies as long as they're useful, because they would continue to help you. If you are working towards the same long term campaign goals, your character should be willing to help him achieve those goals.
Now, clearly, as soon as your character feels that the two of you are NOT working towards the same long term goals, he would have no reason to hesitate in going his own way, whether peacefully/amiably or not.
These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move on with the game.
if your ninja is chaotic neutral he wil probably not be writing a leter to his superiors more like looking at him with a shalking head as in "oh man what a waste of energy there is nothing to gain from this!"
Firstly about the paladin, unless he is a paladin of either Shelyn or Serenrae then he isn't in any big trouble (still if i were in his place i would have freed them, give them swords and allow them to be slain by me with honor).
Now to your character, you play the alignment that is normally reserved for as*****s (CN) so i don't think that your character would have any real problem with the paladin's actions except if this is just another part of his as****iness. Now if your character isn't an as****e CN but another kind of CN i don't see why does he have a serious issue with the paladin's actions.
As to not helping in combat from now on, well how can i put it mildly....he doesn't need your help, you are at 5th book of serpent skull that means level 13-14 if i am not mistaken and well at those levels.... let's just simply say that if he is a (mediocre optimized) paladin and you are ninja, he doesn't really need you. If you can get the wizard and/or the cleric to take your side then the paladin would be in trouble.
So what's the problem? The paladin killed the innocent evil people?
The CN ninja has a problem with killing prisoners?
If, the issue here is not about the prisoners, and is more about "my ninja hates this paladin, and wants a way to get back at him, and sees this as an opportunity." Then, and only then would I say this behavior was okay. The paladin did nothing wrong, but if your CN ninja wants to stretch the truth and say he killed prisoners that weren't evil, to try and screw him over.
Also, d*ck move.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Eh...I don't see it so much as meta-gaming...when your schtick is stealth...and you're a borderline criminal anyhow...I can see how that can be real irritating.
How about 'All that damn noise could have gotten me killed!'. That's the part where I can see a real BIG issue. CNs can definitely hold a grudge. That's an alignment that screams it, to me.
Irritating, yes, but if he's willingly working with a Paladin, then he knowingly risks such "irritations" on a daily basis. Could it eventually come to lagerheads and result in a fight or drama like the OP is saying? Perhaps. But I see a Ninja as more disciplined than this (even a CN one) and I believe he would just find a way to do his thing DESPITE the Paladin. That would be the ultimate pie in the face for any CN Stealthy. To kill at will, using methods you chose, and have the Goody-Goody NOT wanting to put you in jail.
Honestly, CN screams to me "next time your noise gets me in a pickle, I'll simply slit your throat while you sleep instead" as a grudge/retribution. But I see your point there. Non-grudge redacted.
Why is everyone so convinced a chaotic neutral character would not do this ? Not saying he should just that he might very well, don't forget batman is chaotic neutral ;-)
EDIT: then again batman would just kick his ass and not write a letter.
|
|
Eh...I don't see it so much as meta-gaming...when your schtick is stealth...and you're a borderline criminal anyhow...I can see how that can be real irritating.How about 'All that damn noise could have gotten me killed!'. That's the part where I can see a real BIG issue. CNs can definitely hold a grudge. That's an alignment that screams it, to me.Irritating, yes, but if he's willingly working with a Paladin, then he knowingly risks such "irritations" on a daily basis. Could it eventually come to lagerheads and result in a fight or drama like the OP is saying? Perhaps. But I see a Ninja as more disciplined than this (even a CN one) and I believe he would just find a way to do his thing DESPITE the Paladin. That would be the ultimate pie in the face for any CN Stealthy. To kill at will, using methods you chose, and have the Goody-Goody NOT wanting to put you in jail.
Honestly, CN screams to me "next time your noise gets me in a pickle, I'll simply slit your throat while you sleep instead" as a grudge/retribution. But I see your point there. Non-grudge redacted.
Yeah.
Hell, a ninja. You know, forget the not working with him bit. Slit his throat in the middle of his favorite wet dream (as he scourges his back, or some silliness) and make sure to clip the vocal cords. Of course, he's gonna lay on hands, and that just blows it...but you know. :p
Ok, maybe not. If you gotta have revenge, switch sides at the wrong moment, and slit his throat in the middle of combat...when he's blown all that healing. >:[
Actions determine alignment, not the other way around. A CN character can act however the player desires; he may be on his way to an alignment shift in the process.
Classes do not come with baked-in personalities. The fact that he is a ninja is irrelevant.
Err, your first statement makes no sense. Alignment definitely determines actions, otherwise why would you even use an alignment in your campaign? Why would a Paladin or Monk or any other class even have alignment restrictions?
Alignment is a generic guideline as to how your character would react to a situation. It's based off of your environment, experience, training, and religious beliefs, if any. It's the generic mindset that helps you determine which action you will take in a given scenario, PRIOR to taking that action. Hence the reason that most Paladins might not kill a drow prisoner, but a Dwarven Stone Lord would.
The reverse (having actions determine alignment) is indeed possible, if the GM decides to interpret it that way. But that's not how it's written.
OP, if I might ask, what is the alignment of the Stone Lord? Is he LG?
Why is everyone so convinced a chaotic neutral character would not do this ? Not saying he should just that he might very well, don't forget batman is chaotic neutral ;-)
EDIT: then again batman would just kick his ass and not write a letter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There should be a 'Batman Feat' that allows you to change alignment at will.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why is everyone so convinced a chaotic neutral character would not do this ? Not saying he should just that he might very well, don't forget batman is chaotic neutral ;-)
The problem is that the OP who is playing a CN ninja is meta-gaming and putting his own personal moral code upon the other player's character. CN is an alignment that doesn't care about other people's codes, only their own. They don't have to justify things to other people, organizations, or deities. They answer only to themselves. By placing his own morals and ethics (as if he was playing a LG Paladin) upon the Paladin through his CN ninja, the OP is just not playing HIS alignment correctly and complaining that the OTHER guy isn't playing correctly. Pot meet Kettle.
Why is everyone so convinced a chaotic neutral character would not do this ? Not saying he should just that he might very well, don't forget batman is chaotic neutral ;-)The problem is that the OP who is playing a CN ninja is meta-gaming and putting his own personal moral code upon the other player's character. CN is an alignment that doesn't care about other people's codes, only their own. They don't have to justify things to other people, organizations, or deities. They answer only to themselves. By placing his own morals and ethics upon the Paladin through his CN ninja, the OP is just not playing his alignment correctly and complaining that the OTHER guys isn't playing correctly. Pot meet Kettle.
Or, another option, the OP is putting not his own personal moral code upon the other player's character, but putting his own definition on what another player's character SHOULD be doing according to what the OP perceives as that Paladin's code (it's even listed in the original post as a "perceived" violation), in which he basically implies that it's the PLAYER'S perception of a violation, not his character's, and taking what the PLAYER knows to be the "proper action" against a Paladin violating his code and using that knowledge in game through his PC. And, the OP cites that the Paladin somehow violated his Ninja's authority as justification. A Ninja's AUTHORITY. A CN Ninja, on the fringe of legality, who sounds like he wouldn't know the proper code of a Dwarven Stone Lord, wouldn't know that the proper protocol is to formally complain to his higher authorities, etc...
Either way, my opinion is that it's meta-gaming based on everything the OP is citing as reasoning and justification.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why is everyone so convinced a chaotic neutral character would not do this ? Not saying he should just that he might very well, don't forget batman is chaotic neutral ;-)The problem is that the OP who is playing a CN ninja is meta-gaming and putting his own personal moral code upon the other player's character. CN is an alignment that doesn't care about other people's codes, only their own. They don't have to justify things to other people, organizations, or deities. They answer only to themselves. By placing his own morals and ethics upon the Paladin through his CN ninja, the OP is just not playing his alignment correctly and complaining that the OTHER guys isn't playing correctly. Pot meet Kettle.Or, another option, the OP is putting not his own personal moral code upon the other player's character, but putting his own definition on what another player's character SHOULD be doing according to what the OP perceives as that Paladin's code (it's even listed in the original post as a "perceived" violation), in which he basically implies that it's the PLAYER'S perception of a violation, not his character's, and taking what the PLAYER knows to be the "proper action" against a Paladin violating his code and using that knowledge in game through his PC. And, the OP cites that the Paladin somehow violated his Ninja's authority as justification. A Ninja's AUTHORITY. A CN Ninja, on the fringe of legality, who sounds like he wouldn't know the proper code of a Dwarven Stone Lord, wouldn't know that the proper protocol is to formally complain to his higher authorities, etc...
Either way, my opinion is that it's meta-gaming based on everything the OP is citing as reasoning and justification.
Exactly. If the OP wants to play a paladin he should do so and play it the way he thinks it should be played. He needs to get off his high horse and let the other player play his character. Anything else dealing with alignment/codes/paladin falling is strictly between the Player playing the Paladin and the GM. The Ninja has nothing to do with it.
Let's not drag this back into the "Shoulda/Coulda" of the Paladin's actions. The OP clearly asked if HIS actions were right, not the Paladin's, and didn't want this balooning into a Paladin judgement debate. Too many other threads on that already.
|
|
I think the OP is frustrated by two things: first the paladin is "throwing his weight around" by forcing the other characters to adhere to his morals, ethics and code of conduct. I use the example of waking the sleeping guards rather than letting the ninja kill them in their sleep (honorable to the extreme). But, in another situation, he slaughters helpless prisoners (evil, evil, evil and dishonorable too). And the DM does nothing. That seems to be the problem.
And while this is not a paladin-alignment thread, the root of the problem is the DM's lack of understanding of how that works.
Regardless, as a CN character, these things should be irrelevant to you. It's only to you as a player that they matter.
My comment to the OP is to go to the DM and ask for his interpretation of the events. I think that might be a good place to start.
Andy
A Paladin of Torag is literally commanded to kill all his enemies with the exception of killing them later if they could be useful for information.
Against my people's enemy I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them and scatter their families.Torag is not a god of mercy, and clearly not to be trifled with.The code of a Paladin of Sarenrae is similarly strict, in that if they can't or won't give up their evil ways, then put them to the sword:
- I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
- I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough.
Some other Paladin codes read entirely differently, Abadar, for example would require they be brought to trial (unless they are bandits, in which case, he can "Judge Dredd" them if needed).
With all of that said, I'm betting the GM improperly adjudicated the Detect Evil ability. Unless they have an aura (cleric, undead, outsider, etc), or are level 5+, they shouldn't detect as evil.
I was not aware the paladin of torag was like that. I haven't read faiths of purity.