I completely agree. It irritated me that the GM let me get away with it.
To be fair, some druids can serve Erastil, god of the hunt. A druid might see himself as a member of the food chain--animals use other animals as expendable tools all the time. Cats use mice as toys. Parasites use animals to look after their young. Fungi possess bees to transport their spores (I'm not even kidding, that's a real thing).
Sure, two days ago, my Serenrae inquisitor is fighting an invisible cleric that keeps casting deathknell and making zombies. I can't find him, so I go after the unconscious before he puts more opponents in my way and using their deaths to make himself more powerful.honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth). Lazy writing. But if you can argue that a sneak attack or a coup de grace a beaten opponent is honorable then go ahead.Wait . . . no sneak attack? All I see for examples of dishonor are lying, cheating and poison. Any rogues who have been successfully reformed and are now paladins must actively ignore all they know about anatomy so as not to be . . . cheating?Again, you are taking a modern 21st century western ethics and imposing them on a game that is loosely drawn from medieval society.Actually I'm just reading the rules. If poison and sneak attack are not allowed, then neither is a coup de grace or other attacks against a harmless creature.
Weakness is not an excuse to break your code and does not make it honorable.
Fair is not the same as honorable. Please try again.honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth). Lazy writing. But if you can argue that a sneak attack or a coup de grace a beaten opponent is honorable then go ahead.Wait . . . no sneak attack? All I see for examples of dishonor are lying, cheating and poison. Any rogues who have been successfully reformed and are now paladins must actively ignore all they know about anatomy so as not to be . . . cheating?Again, you are taking a modern 21st century western ethics and imposing them on a game that is loosely drawn from medieval society.Actually I'm just reading the rules. If poison and sneak attack are not allowed, then neither is a coup de grace or other attacks against a harmless creature.So...
- You cannot use ranged combat against someone who does not have a ranged weapon. Because that is an unfair advantage.- You cannot use spells against a non-spellcaster, because that is unfair.
- You cannot use Lay on Hands when fighting an enemy without healing capability, because that is unfair.
- You cannot use a magical weapon against someone with a mundane weapon, because that is unfair.
- You cannot attack someone when you are buffed, or when they have been debuffed.... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Lets play make-believe and say I used the word "dishonorable" instead of "unfair".
"punish those who harm or threaten innocents." Court mandated executions fall under the code. That is not the same as killing a defenseless prisoner where you are not the assigned executioner or Judge. A paladin cannot just take the law into his own hands.Also, I still want to know why Bill the Paladin/Inheritor's Crusader can lose all of his class abilities just because he used one of them on a guy guilty of serial murder.
If your interpretation of the rules ends up with a class losing all of its class abilities due to using one of its abilities in the intended way, you need to re-think your interpretation.
Except it is not really a court mandated execution. It is a "we don't know if he is guilty or not. You there! Try to kill him using your god-granted powers that make you the perfect judge!"
Lets play make-believe and say I used the word "dishonorable" instead of "unfair".
Fair is not the same as honorable. Please try again.
Ok. Then what makes those action dishonorable. What you describe is a battle not a duel. There are different actions that are honorable in both.
Except it is not really a court mandated execution. It is a "we don't know if he is guilty or not. You there! Try to kill him using your god-granted powers that make you the perfect judge!""punish those who harm or threaten innocents." Court mandated executions fall under the code. That is not the same as killing a defenseless prisoner where you are not the assigned executioner or Judge. A paladin cannot just take the law into his own hands.Also, I still want to know why Bill the Paladin/Inheritor's Crusader can lose all of his class abilities just because he used one of them on a guy guilty of serial murder.
If your interpretation of the rules ends up with a class losing all of its class abilities due to using one of its abilities in the intended way, you need to re-think your interpretation.
He can only do that if a legitimate authority figure appoints him to do such.
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No you can't let it escape. If it attempts to run away, that is a hostile act and endangers innocents. This situation is unlike the goblin, because goblins don't exist just to hurt people.
You extract it does not mean you let it escape. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and the ghoul begging for mercy begin a battle of patience. If the ghoul loses he is "purified" or killed. If the paladin loses he falls.
Undead cannot lose battles of patience. Here's how it goes.
You spend the next couple days standing there, watching the ghoul, trying not to fall asleep. Obviously, other evildoers take advantage of your stubbornness to harass the town, but you can't stop that, you're busy right outside town bein' merciful.
You wait.
The ghoul lies there, red eyes glittering.
And wait.
You start to get tired, but you are a servant of Sarenrae, and she would definitely want you to do your best to redeem this soulless monstrosity.
So...thirsty...
And wait.
You've eaten all your food. Need...water...
And wait.
The ghoul is laughing at you. You know it is. It says nothing, but you know it is. It doesn't need water. And it will soon feed.
And wait.
You accuse it of doing this deliberately, but it claims it truly wishes for forgiveness. You can't prove otherwise, and it still won't fight you.
And wait.
You beg it to fight you. It says nothing.
And wait.
Surely one of the townsfolk will come looking for you. Perhaps they will have water.
And wait.
At last, you collapse from exhaustion and dehydration.
The ghoul feeds, but only a little. It goes and gets water, and makes sure you will survive.
You will need to be strong. It needs allies if it is to devour the town. Fortunately, its first child will be one with great conviction. It is certain of that.
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The paladin IS law, he is the most perfect and incorruptible servant of justice you can imagine, and no decision he ever makes will be improved upon by a potentially corrupt court.
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He can only do that if a legitimate authority figure appoints him to do such.Except it is not really a court mandated execution. It is a "we don't know if he is guilty or not. You there! Try to kill him using your god-granted powers that make you the perfect judge!""punish those who harm or threaten innocents." Court mandated executions fall under the code. That is not the same as killing a defenseless prisoner where you are not the assigned executioner or Judge. A paladin cannot just take the law into his own hands.Also, I still want to know why Bill the Paladin/Inheritor's Crusader can lose all of his class abilities just because he used one of them on a guy guilty of serial murder.
If your interpretation of the rules ends up with a class losing all of its class abilities due to using one of its abilities in the intended way, you need to re-think your interpretation.
A paladin is a legitimate authority figure...his authority comes from his god...that had better be legitimate. In a LE society, the paladin refers to his god, no matter how legalistic those human fiends may be.
No you can't let it escape. If it attempts to run away, that is a hostile act and endangers innocents. This situation is unlike the goblin, because goblins don't exist just to hurt people.
You extract it does not mean you let it escape. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and the ghoul begging for mercy begin a battle of patience. If the ghoul loses he is "purified" or killed. If the paladin loses he falls.
Undead cannot lose battles of patience. Here's how it goes.
You spend the next couple days standing there, watching the ghoul, trying not to fall asleep. Obviously, other evildoers take advantage of your stubbornness to harass the town, but you can't stop that, you're busy right outside town bein' merciful.
You wait.
The ghoul lies there, red eyes glittering.
And wait.
You start to get tired, but you are a servant of Sarenrae, and she would definitely want you to do your best to redeem this soulless monstrosity.
** spoiler omitted **
Or you make grapple check with the ghouls until you win. Eventually one of your party members may distract you while another kills the ghoul. You on the other hand cannot. Unless being a ghoul is a crime. Which you have been assigned to purge from the land. Then you can give the ghoul the option to come with you or be punished right then and there.
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He can only do that if a legitimate authority figure appoints him to do such.Except it is not really a court mandated execution. It is a "we don't know if he is guilty or not. You there! Try to kill him using your god-granted powers that make you the perfect judge!""punish those who harm or threaten innocents." Court mandated executions fall under the code. That is not the same as killing a defenseless prisoner where you are not the assigned executioner or Judge. A paladin cannot just take the law into his own hands.Also, I still want to know why Bill the Paladin/Inheritor's Crusader can lose all of his class abilities just because he used one of them on a guy guilty of serial murder.
If your interpretation of the rules ends up with a class losing all of its class abilities due to using one of its abilities in the intended way, you need to re-think your interpretation.
And the ability doesn't specify that the paladin needs someone else to give him permission to use it for its intended purpose . . . why? Lazy writing again? Or you making things up? Heck, in the ability description is says he "may use his power to judge the guilty and absolve the innocent", is the "but only if he is already duly appointed by a court" implied?
And what makes him not a legitimate authority figure in himself.
A paladin is not some random schmuck given divine powers.
A paladin is chosen by a god, or potentially just by the cosmic forces of law and good to act as their agent. Why? Because presumably, the paladin innately has a sense of what is right and what is wrong. Presumably, even before being instilled by divine power, a paladin would be a fairer judge than most of the population.
Would a goblin rather be tried by a court in a town that has utter hatred of goblins? Or tried by a paladin that will judge him fairly and actually be open to the possibility of redemption?
Paladin is not necessarily a legitimate authority. He must respect the laws of man along with those of his God. He cannot break the law, simply because he feels like it or views himself above the the law. At which point he breaks his code and falls.
Ummm...no. He's protecting innocents. (And the guilty, too, but hey.)But they're adorable, and they can't defend themselves! Just because they breed faster than rabbits doesn't give you an excuse to murder them!
You horrible monster.
Who says they can't defend themselves? Goblins breed like rabbits and we murder them to keep population down too.
What if the ghoul has chained its neck to a boulder? And, more importantly, what if you're alone?
You have no solution to this. You would have a paladin spare a being of pure evil rather than fight "dishonorably". Paladins are not Lawful Stupid, and they certainly aren't Lawful Braindead. Rules must be broken in the pursuit of good. A paladin understands this.
Who says they can't defend themselves? Goblins breed like rabbits and we murder them to keep population down too.
Parasprites are little insects.
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I'm just sitting here shaking my head at this point Marthkus. I can't say anything more about it other than what I've shown to you previously and what most of these other guys are pointing out to you.
There is NO one way to play a paladin and if you say there is I call total BS on you. You can however play your paladin however you want and adjudicate how one is to be played at your table however you want, but by coming to the boards you open yourself up to most of us pointing out that you are wrong by claiming that this particular paladin in question per the OP should be fallen for doing his duties and following his deity's code. Just because you think you are right doesn't mean that you are my friend.
Or you make grapple check with the ghouls until you win. Eventually one of your party members may distract you while another kills the ghoul. You on the other hand cannot. Unless being a ghoul is a crime. Which you have been assigned to purge from the land. Then you can give the ghoul the option to come with you or be punished right then and there.No you can't let it escape. If it attempts to run away, that is a hostile act and endangers innocents. This situation is unlike the goblin, because goblins don't exist just to hurt people.
You extract it does not mean you let it escape. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and the ghoul begging for mercy begin a battle of patience. If the ghoul loses he is "purified" or killed. If the paladin loses he falls.
Undead cannot lose battles of patience. Here's how it goes.
You spend the next couple days standing there, watching the ghoul, trying not to fall asleep. Obviously, other evildoers take advantage of your stubbornness to harass the town, but you can't stop that, you're busy right outside town bein' merciful.
You wait.
The ghoul lies there, red eyes glittering.
And wait.
You start to get tired, but you are a servant of Sarenrae, and she would definitely want you to do your best to redeem this soulless monstrosity.
** spoiler omitted **
So . . . dying in your continued efforts to grapple a ghoul (poor halfling with 12 Str and no Improved Grapple, you should have known better than to become a paladin), and thus unleashing it upon the world to kill untold innocent folks is better than slaying it? What happened to protecting those in need and punishing those who threaten innocents?
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Paladin is not necessarily a legitimate authority. He must respect the laws of man along with those of his God. He cannot break the law, simply because he feels like it or views himself above the the law. At which point he breaks his code and falls.
Show me ONE example, just ONE, real or otherwise, legitimate authority that is more pure an true to the idea of justice than that of the paladin code.
I take back what I said earlier, your sense of ethics is not just stunted, it is wholly nonexistent. You put the L waaaaaay over G, and make the paladin a construct with less self-determination than ED-209.
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Scaevola, don't be silly. Who cares about the townsfolk? Who cares about the orphanage a mile off that the ghoul is probably planning to attack? Y'gotta die with honor.
What if the ghoul has chained its neck to a boulder? And, more importantly, what if you're alone?
You have no solution to this. You would have a paladin spare a being of pure evil rather than fight "dishonorably". Paladins are not Lawful Stupid, and they certainly aren't Lawful Braindead. Rules must be broken in the pursuit of good. A paladin understands this.
If the ghoul is imprisoned with no way to escape, then you can't kill it. Unless you are a court appointing deliverer of judgement.
"Rules must be broken in the pursuit of good." That's CG. A paladin cannot follow that logic and still be a paladin. Paladins are more than just good. They are lawful too. Their code exemplifies this dual philosophy.
Show me ONE example, just ONE, real or otherwise, legitimate authority that is more pure an true to the idea of justice than that of the paladin code.
I take back what I said earlier, your sense of ethics is not just stunted, it is wholly nonexistent. You put the L waaaaaay over G, and make the paladin a construct with less self-determination than ED-209.
1,000,000% THIS!!!!!
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Okay, so let's play a paladin in your game for a moment.
He looks at this ghoul. He thinks of the children it plans to devour or infect. He thinks of his friends, who don't know how to fight these things.
He has no choice. He forsakes his vows and kills, in cold blood, this poor, sweet, innocent ghoul. Sarenrae looks down, shocked at this murder most foul. She quickly severs all ties with the disgraced murderer.
The paladin apparently broke his code. He just did it because he put the lives of innocents over the wish to give what is literally the foulest type of creature in the multiverse a fair fight.
Frankly, Marthkus?
Your paladins suck.
No you can't let it escape. If it attempts to run away, that is a hostile act and endangers innocents. This situation is unlike the goblin, because goblins don't exist just to hurt people.
You extract it does not mean you let it escape. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and the ghoul begging for mercy begin a battle of patience. If the ghoul loses he is "purified" or killed. If the paladin loses he falls.
Undead cannot lose battles of patience. Here's how it goes.
You spend the next couple days standing there, watching the ghoul, trying not to fall asleep. Obviously, other evildoers take advantage of your stubbornness to harass the town, but you can't stop that, you're busy right outside town bein' merciful.
You wait.
The ghoul lies there, red eyes glittering.
And wait.
You start to get tired, but you are a servant of Sarenrae, and she would definitely want you to do your best to redeem this soulless monstrosity.
** spoiler omitted **
lol
Paladin is not necessarily a legitimate authority. He must respect the laws of man along with those of his God. He cannot break the law, simply because he feels like it or views himself above the the law. At which point he breaks his code and falls.He is above the law. He only has to abide legitimate authority. Again, not further defined. Clearly Evil based laws are out, as our demon princes (even though they are the ruler of their realms), but probably LN, N, NG and CG societies would be included as long as they did not conflict with his gods.
And again, how is he not? His god gave him the ability in order to have an impact, not to sit by and let some lazy, corrupt hillbilly court have the say.
A paladin cannot lead a rebellion or over-throw corrupt governments. He represents law and good. He cannot deny one to better serve the other.
He can try to reason with hillbilly court, but if their are no higher courts in the land that is all he can do.
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Or you make grapple check with the ghouls until you win. Eventually one of your party members may distract you while another kills the ghoul. You on the other hand cannot. Unless being a ghoul is a crime. Which you have been assigned to purge from the land. Then you can give the ghoul the option to come with you or be punished right then and there.No you can't let it escape. If it attempts to run away, that is a hostile act and endangers innocents. This situation is unlike the goblin, because goblins don't exist just to hurt people.
You extract it does not mean you let it escape. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and the ghoul begging for mercy begin a battle of patience. If the ghoul loses he is "purified" or killed. If the paladin loses he falls.
Undead cannot lose battles of patience. Here's how it goes.
You spend the next couple days standing there, watching the ghoul, trying not to fall asleep. Obviously, other evildoers take advantage of your stubbornness to harass the town, but you can't stop that, you're busy right outside town bein' merciful.
You wait.
The ghoul lies there, red eyes glittering.
And wait.
You start to get tired, but you are a servant of Sarenrae, and she would definitely want you to do your best to redeem this soulless monstrosity.
** spoiler omitted **
Grapple a ghoul? What game do you play? Yes, just being a ghoul is against the law...in most cases (but not all).
Okay, Marthkus just contradicted R.A.W.
A paladin does not have to obey corrupt authority. It's in the book.
That is all. I hope you don't give a s#$$ about this argument, because I am not going to take anything you say from now on the least bit seriously.
So guys, I can't help but notice you ignored my serious question on how to handle the evil unicorn shadow. I get the sense you aren't taking it very seriously.
Okay, so let's play a paladin in your game for a moment.
He looks at this ghoul. He thinks of the children it plans to devour or infect. He thinks of his friends, who don't know how to fight these things.
He has no choice. He forsakes his vows and kills, in cold blood, this poor, sweet, innocent ghoul. Sarenrae looks down, shocked at this murder most foul. She quickly severs all ties with the disgraced murderer.
The paladin apparently broke his code. He just did it because he put the lives of innocents over the wish to give what is literally the foulest type of creature in the multiverse a fair fight.
Frankly, Marthkus?
Your paladins suck.
Hear hear!
+1 for KC.
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Paladin is not necessarily a legitimate authority. He must respect the laws of man along with those of his God. He cannot break the law, simply because he feels like it or views himself above the the law. At which point he breaks his code and falls.Show me ONE example, just ONE, real or otherwise, legitimate authority that is more pure an true to the idea of justice than that of the paladin code.
Oh! I know! I know!
The paladin's god!
. . . wait a minute . . .
What if the ghoul has chained its neck to a boulder? And, more importantly, what if you're alone?
You have no solution to this. You would have a paladin spare a being of pure evil rather than fight "dishonorably". Paladins are not Lawful Stupid, and they certainly aren't Lawful Braindead. Rules must be broken in the pursuit of good. A paladin understands this.
If the ghoul is imprisoned with no way to escape, then you can't kill it. Unless you are a court appointing deliverer of judgement.
"Rules must be broken in the pursuit of good." That's CG. A paladin cannot follow that logic and still be a paladin. Paladins are more than just good. They are lawful too. Their code exemplifies this dual philosophy.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but wouldn't gods override mortal court?
Paladin is not necessarily a legitimate authority. He must respect the laws of man along with those of his God. He cannot break the law, simply because he feels like it or views himself above the the law. At which point he breaks his code and falls.He is above the law. He only has to abide legitimate authority. Again, not further defined. Clearly Evil based laws are out, as our demon princes (even though they are the ruler of their realms), but probably LN, N, NG and CG societies would be included as long as they did not conflict with his gods.
And again, how is he not? His god gave him the ability in order to have an impact, not to sit by and let some lazy, corrupt hillbilly court have the say.
A paladin cannot lead a rebellion or over-throw corrupt governments. He represents law and good. He cannot deny one to better serve the other.
He can try to reason with hillbilly court, but if their are no higher courts in the land that is all he can do.
He very well could if the court goes against his own Code of Conduct. That is unless the Code includes a thing about following the law of the land, and not all paladin codes do.
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Personally i dont know wvo to disagree with more... Team "paladin can do whatever she wants because what the paladin does is always justified" or team "paladin cant kill an always chaotic evil undead abomination unless its done in a proper duel".
I miss team "killing a ghoul in the village is okay, torturing goblin babies isnt".
Paladin is not necessarily a legitimate authority. He must respect the laws of man along with those of his God. He cannot break the law, simply because he feels like it or views himself above the the law. At which point he breaks his code and falls.Show me ONE example, just ONE, real or otherwise, legitimate authority that is more pure an true to the idea of justice than that of the paladin code.
I take back what I said earlier, your sense of ethics is not just stunted, it is wholly nonexistent. You put the L waaaaaay over G, and make the paladin a construct with less self-determination than ED-209.
Being more true or pure to the idea of justice does not make you more legitimate. You are saying that paladins are basically Azatas while in fact they must behave more like Archons. Paladins must respect the law. They are not above the law.
Are you saying a paladin can be less lawful than Superman?
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Paladin is not necessarily a legitimate authority. He must respect the laws of man along with those of his God. He cannot break the law, simply because he feels like it or views himself above the the law. At which point he breaks his code and falls.He is above the law. He only has to abide legitimate authority. Again, not further defined. Clearly Evil based laws are out, as our demon princes (even though they are the ruler of their realms), but probably LN, N, NG and CG societies would be included as long as they did not conflict with his gods.
And again, how is he not? His god gave him the ability in order to have an impact, not to sit by and let some lazy, corrupt hillbilly court have the say.
A paladin cannot lead a rebellion or over-throw corrupt governments. He represents law and good. He cannot deny one to better serve the other.
He can try to reason with hillbilly court, but if their are no higher courts in the land that is all he can do.
10/10: Would rage again
This troll is amazing!
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Ilja, you're branding one side completely unfairly.
Marthkus has actually stated the "proper duel" thing, and more besides. Therefore, you're not exaggerating his side at all--you're portraying his side with utter seriousness. However, you are exaggerating the other side. I know it's hard to make Marthkus's position any more comical, but could you please try, for the sake of balance?
Personally i dont know wvo to disagree with more... Team "paladin can do whatever she wants because what the paladin does is always justified" or team "paladin cant kill an always chaotic evil undead abomination unless its done in a proper duel".
I miss team "killing a ghoul in the village is okay, torturing goblin babies isnt".
But, but those goblin babies could be schemeing some nefarious plans to steal toys from the other babies.
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Town Guard: "Excuse me, sir, law states that anybody entering this city must eat a live baby."
Paladin: "Hm...guys, this sucks, but we need to follow the law."
Ranger: "WHAT?
Wizard: "Dude, what the F#$@?"
Paladin: "It's the law. We already entered this city, we can't break the law."
Ranger: "I AM NOT EATING A BABY!"
Town Guard: "Law also states that if you see someone resisting the Baby Eating Law, you must help guards force them to follow it."
Paladin: "Then I will have to do so, I guess."
Ranger: "Dude, stay away from me."
Wizard: "That's it, we're out of here."
Paladin: "Hey, where are you going?! Come back! You can't just leave, it's the law!"
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Ilja, you're branding one side completely unfairly.
Marthkus has actually stated the "proper duel" thing, and more besides. Therefore, you're not exaggerating his side at all--you're portraying his side with utter seriousness. However, you are exaggerating the other side. I know it's hard to make Marthkus's position any more comical, but could you please try, for the sake of balance?
Indeed, applying hyperbole properly it should be:
Team "paladin can do whatever she wants because what the paladin does is always justified"
versus
Team "paladin must become a butler for any always chaotic evil undead abomination he encounters until it accepts his challenge for a proper duel".
Ilja, you're branding one side completely unfairly.
Marthkus has actually stated the "proper duel" thing, and more besides. Therefore, you're not exaggerating his side at all--you're portraying his side with utter seriousness. However, you are exaggerating the other side. I know it's hard to make Marthkus's position any more comical, but could you please try, for the sake of balance?
Never said "proper duel". You just have to act honorably. That includes not killing helpless creatures throwing themselves upon your mercy. There is a difference between what is honorable in a battle and what in honorable in a duel and what is honorable out-side of combat.
You think I'm exaggerating? This is exactly what Marthkus said, no exceptions. Any actual paladin would be forced to make himself Fall in the above example. If he didn't, he'd fall anyways for committing an Evil act.
You're supposed to be Lawful Good, not Lawful Neutral.
I suddenly see why Iron Claw has Honor as a flaw.
He is requried in RAW to oppose corrupt laws and governments, with force if needed. It is not the Law that makes the Paladin, but Just Laws (why it's LG).
Are you trawling at this point, or is your understanding of the rules this muddled?
By that logic a paladin in the USA could run around killing politicians for being corrupt. Or is allowed to overthrow dictatorships and bring chaos to the land (something Archons can't do).
This thread is literally making me LOL at work. It's just hard to believe anyone could believe the way that Marthkus does and not think they are just trolling to mess with everyone else. At least I hope he's really trolling and doesn't really believe the drivel that he's been spouting...
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Personally i dont know wvo to disagree with more... Team "paladin can do whatever she wants because what the paladin does is always justified" or team "paladin cant kill an always chaotic evil undead abomination unless its done in a proper duel".
I miss team "killing a ghoul in the village is okay, torturing goblin babies isnt".
Torture is never OK. Oh, and in a LG society, the paladin is definitely bound by man's law...likely in any good society...but he cannot follow evil laws. To be clear, when I say bound by man's law, that law will follow the tenets of an LG deity...and won't go against a paladin's code. If there is a conflict, for some reason, he follows his god's tenets...and then pays the price.