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Not at all. I've said in several posts that certain situations can force you to leave.
If you are referring to the OP, I would say that is a slight exaggeration. As I read it, the player was upset at the DM for not allowing a feat from a splat book after prior approval and there was some other background history between the two. Having looked over my friends character sheets for them, I know how easy it is to overlook one feat. I would not consider that grounds to walk out on my friends in the middle of a game.Let me also say, I never meant to imply I was some paragon of virtue. I have been rude in many situations, warranted and unwarranted. I'm sure you can verify that, Mr. Silverclaw.
Testify, brother!
My experience of the Internet is limited to the Paizo forum. This medium tends to make posters appear less polite than they would be in a face-to-face conversation.
I'm even surprised at some of my own posts.
On topic, I've walked out once. Into another room, to calm down. The DM had been talking very badly to me. Social contract broken. I said nothing and left. The reason I said nothing is because I was so angry anything I'd've said would have only made things worse.
Least said, soonest mended.
Not bad; just once in 36 years!
I'm always the DM. But it hasn't happened, yet.
I have to say this discussion explains a lot of the outlandish behavior I have read about here. Clearly proper manners is no longer as important as when I was raised. I know this is the Internet so everyone here is an atheist and this won't mean anything to any of you but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Everyone can continue on with your self justification, nothing anyone ever does is bad unless they mean it to be bad. I'll continue saying please and thank you and sir and mam. Now if y'all don't mind I have to go yell at some kids to get off my lawn.
This is a rather unpleasant personal attack on my (and several other posters') personal character and a deliberate misrepresentation of what we have been arguing, and I do not appreciate it.
You have said that getting up from the table in-and-of-itself is rude, regardless of reasons.
I, and other poster, have said that the reasoning behind and the ultimate effect of the action (getting up and leaving) is what makes something rude, not the act itself. Frankly, you didn't seem to respond to any of the argument of this nature, so I have no idea of your take on them.
I don't see how any of that has any reflection on my moral character or belief in an infinite God.
I have to say this discussion explains a lot of the outlandish behavior I have read about here. Clearly proper manners is no longer as important as when I was raised. I know this is the Internet so everyone here is an atheist and this won't mean anything to any of you but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Everyone can continue on with your self justification, nothing anyone ever does is bad unless they mean it to be bad. I'll continue saying please and thank you and sir and mam. Now if y'all don't mind I have to go yell at some kids to get off my lawn.This is a rather unpleasant personal attack on my (and several other posters') personal character and a deliberate misrepresentation of what we have been arguing, and I do not appreciate it.
Would you forgive me if I said that wasn't my intent?
You have said that getting up from the table in-and-of-itself is rude, regardless of reasons.
I, and other poster, have said that the reasoning behind and the ultimate effect of the action (getting up and leaving) is what makes something rude, not the act itself. Frankly, you didn't seem to respond to any of the argument of this nature, so I have no idea of your take on them.
I thought I had responded to that argument several times. I understand you disagree with my position but I'm fairly certain I've addressed yours.
I don't see how any of that has any reflection on my moral character or belief in an infinite God.
Merely that you would not be concerned with the road to hell and what it was paved with. If you do believe in God, then do you believe in an absolute evil or is everything up to "circumstances?"
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I believe a belief in god probably shouldn't be involved in a topic about "Have you ever walked out on a DM, mid combat?" Maybe share some stories and reasoning, but I'm not sure if theism fits in here. Except that one time a DM tried to force Theology on my character because everyone needed a patron. Wasn't having that!
I have to say this discussion explains a lot of the outlandish behavior I have read about here. Clearly proper manners is no longer as important as when I was raised. I know this is the Internet so everyone here is an atheist and this won't mean anything to any of you but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Everyone can continue on with your self justification, nothing anyone ever does is bad unless they mean it to be bad. I'll continue saying please and thank you and sir and mam. Now if y'all don't mind I have to go yell at some kids to get off my lawn.This is a rather unpleasant personal attack on my (and several other posters') personal character and a deliberate misrepresentation of what we have been arguing, and I do not appreciate it.Would you forgive me if I said that wasn't my intent?
You have said that getting up from the table in-and-of-itself is rude, regardless of reasons.
I, and other poster, have said that the reasoning behind and the ultimate effect of the action (getting up and leaving) is what makes something rude, not the act itself. Frankly, you didn't seem to respond to any of the argument of this nature, so I have no idea of your take on them.I thought I had responded to that argument several times. I understand you disagree with my position but I'm fairly certain I've addressed yours.
Merely that you would not be concerned with the road to hell and what it was paved with. If you do believe in God, then do you believe in an absolute evil or is everything up to "circumstances?"
I don't see how any of that has any reflection on my moral character or belief in an infinite God.
1. Yes I forgive you, as long as you acknowledge how that post was personal.
2. I think there has definitely been some miscommunication, then (which may have stemmed from your very brief responses that seemed to focus on a small aspect of posts), because I was not trying to say intentions are the deciding factor. The feelings of the people/person left (person B), which are caused by the intentions of the person who leaves (person A) are what defines something as rude.
2/3 If person B is no offended by person A's reason for leaving, he does not judge it as rude, so it is not rude. Rudeness is decided by a person's judgement of the action compared to the reasons for the action and the end result of the action. Reason/intention is not the end-all-be-all.
3. This is getting a little tangential, but I do believe in a God that caused the universe and created all of it's physical laws and logic. There are actions that are expressly wrong (note: getting up and leaving a table is not one of them) which are mediated by circumstance. I believe killing a person is inherently evil, but I believe killing a person that is trying to kill another is acceptable, though not good. I believe the act of getting up and leaving a social gathering is morally neutral, but the justification (I you drank my soda/My friend's dad just died) and the ultimate effect (We can adjust easily/This seriously throws off the encounter) may make that better or worse.
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I have to say this discussion explains a lot of the outlandish behavior I have read about here. Clearly proper manners is no longer as important as when I was raised. I know this is the Internet so everyone here is an atheist and this won't mean anything to any of you but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Dude, that post was the very definition of RUDE. You don't know me. You don't know anything about my personal or spiritual life. And telling me I'm headed to hell because I disagree with your definition of rudeness? That was waynastyrude. Rather then quote some obscure French Bishop from the 1100's,
How about a quote directly from the Big J:
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)
And now back to the OP. Yeah, I hung up on a VTT game. Not my finest hour. There is another player and I who don't get along. She is a beloved friend of the GM. And she will snark at my incompetence and then go off to solve the mission solo-- nearly every gaming session. I complained that this was not fun for the rest of the players and I. So their solution was to run the keystone adventures mid-week when no one else was around. The next time I was hanging on the line whilst she solo'd-- I hung up. I don't think they really noticed.
I have to say this discussion explains a lot of the outlandish behavior I have read about here. Clearly proper manners is no longer as important as when I was raised. I know this is the Internet so everyone here is an atheist and this won't mean anything to any of you but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.Dude, that post was the very definition of RUDE. You don't know me. You don't know anything about my personal or spiritual life. And telling me I'm headed to hell because I disagree with your definition of rudeness? That was waynastyrude.
To be completely fair, I think the Good Intentions Paving Company was brought up more in light of the discussion around intent, rather than the rudeness kerfuffle. I don't believe Mr. Stonebreaker thinks rudeness or a disagreement of the definition of same is a damning offense.
Even so, yeah, Durngrun could probably have dialed back the haughtiness just the teensiest bit, IMO.
You don't know me. You don't know anything about my personal or spiritual life.
No, no I don't know. I don't believe I have ever seen a post by you. I'm sorry my discussion with other people has upset you so much.
2. I think there has definitely been some miscommunication, then (which may have stemmed from your very brief responses that seemed to focus on a small aspect of posts), because I was not trying to say intentions are the deciding factor. The feelings of the people/person left (person B), which are caused by the intentions of the person who leaves (person A) are what defines something as rude.
Just to show that I'm not coming out of left field with all this intent vs actions...
Except it is not ACTIONS that make rudeness. It is INTENT and the WAY you carry out those actions that determines rudeness.
I have said actions can be rude even if the intent is not.
Just as actions can be evil even if the intent is not.Just because you didn't mean to be rude (even if those around agree), does not mean you haven't been rude.
Hence therefore and forthwith: road, hell, intentions, paved, etc.
That tends to happen when you make blanket statements about whole groups of people.
Everybody everywhere hates over-generalization!
I know this is the Internet so everyone here is an atheist and this won't mean anything to any of you but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You don't know me. You don't know anything about my personal or spiritual life.No, no I don't know. I don't believe I have ever seen a post by you. I'm sorry my discussion with other people has upset you so much.
I hadn't commented on this particular thread previously, however it is a public forum where anyone can read.
Your comments about everyone on the internet being atheists, and also about people with good intentions headed towards hell... was addressed to me.
It was presumptive. It reeked of self-righteousness. It was a sweeping generalization. And it was insulting.
I don't know about you, but I was raised to think pre-emptively judging people is both rude and un-christian.
I get that you were frustrated with your perception that people were not understanding, appreciating or agreeing with your points. So you vented with hyperbolic language.
Do *you* get the irony of how dismissively painting everyone on the internet with the same brush-- is the virtual equivalent of a ragetableflip?
Actually, I'm not truly upset. I'll forget this in a couple of hours. But the irony I thought, bore comment.
Except it is not ACTIONS that make rudeness. It is INTENT and the WAY you carry out those actions that determines rudeness.
I have said actions can be rude even if the intent is not.
Just as actions can be evil even if the intent is not.Just because you didn't mean to be rude (even if those around agree), does not mean you haven't been rude.
"And WAY you carry out those actions".
If you carry out said actions in a rude way, then yes it is rude. If you get up from the table and piss in the GMs mouth, and then leave you are being rude.
If you get up, say "I'm out, see ya." and leave, you are not being rude. You are leaving.
Hence therefore and forthwith: road, hell, intentions, paved, etc.
I wonder what the road to heaven is paved with?
...I better stop before this post gets moderated.
I wonder what the road to heaven is paved with?
Butterscotch Oatmeal Cookies.
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I wonder what the road to heaven is paved with?Butterscotch Oatmeal Cookies.
No it's paved with chocolate cheesecake brownies.
We have to go to war with eachother now.
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No it's paved with chocolate cheesecake brownies.
We have to go to war with each other now.
Man, darn these religious wars! The last bellum sacrum I was in cost me a really nice pair of shoes.
Okay, let's see here *thumbs through instruction manual* It's been a while. ... charge at offender, screaming "die heretic" I remember that part... Um.
Wait. Is this a jihad or a crusade?
As a divine being, I'm getting all of my chocolate monsters to help Lemon.
Chocolate Eternal!
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As a divine being, I'm getting all of my chocolate monsters to help Lemon.
Chocolate Eternal!
Hey mister! This is a religious war!
There's no place for divine beings here!
I believe killing a person is inherently evil, but I believe killing a person that is trying to kill another is acceptable, though not good.
This is essentially the point I was trying to make. An act can be rude but not unacceptable. You could be perfectly justified in your actions.
I believe the act of getting up and leaving a social gathering is morally neutral, but the justification (I you drank my soda/My friend's dad just died) and the ultimate effect (We can adjust easily/This seriously throws off the encounter) may make that better or worse.
I don't think it's a question of morality but one of politeness/rudeness. I would not call someone immoral for leavening a game for any reason. I brought up murder/evil/etc. as examples of actions being separate of intent.
I hadn't commented on this particular thread previously, however it is a public forum where anyone can read.
Agreed, but that post was in response to other people's comments. As you had not commented yet, it was clearly not directed to you.
Your comments about everyone on the internet being atheists, and also about people with good intentions headed towards hell... was addressed to me.It was presumptive. It reeked of self-righteousness. It was a sweeping generalization. And it was insulting.
I don't know about you, but I was raised to think pre-emptively judging people is both rude and un-christian.
You may have misunderstood that. The atheist comment comes from seeing several people on the message boards state they were atheist. (Look at any thread involving religion). The comment about the road to hell is a very common phrase. It does not mean people with good intentions are going to hell. It means you are not forgiven for your sins merely because you "intended" to be good. I have already said I was rude. I think people just want me to keep repeating that.
I get that you were frustrated with your perception that people were not understanding, appreciating or agreeing with your points. So you vented with hyperbolic language.
Yet you chose to take it as a personal attack...
Do *you* get the irony of how dismissively painting everyone on the internet with the same brush-- is the virtual equivalent of a ragetableflip?
No, no I do not.
Actually, I'm not truly upset. I'll forget this in a couple of hours. But the irony I thought, bore comment.
I'm glad you are not upset. I promise I am much more pleasant in person when you can hear my tone of voice and don't have to wait four hours for me to clarify myself.
I apologize for interrupting the holy war. Please continue.
Substitute good/evil with polite/rude then if you find that a more appropriate term. I don't think the act of getting up and leaving is inherently rude. It may be made rude or admirable depending on the circumstance.
In dire times like these, we must remember the words of our great prophet CaCao, and ask ourselves: WWYDFKB (What Would You Do For a Klondike Bar)?
Tonight, our old 3.5 DM decided to run a one shot campaign. It's been well over six months since we played these characters. We have had to get everything approved by him. That means nothing is on my character sheet that he didn't approve, this piece of information is important.
Tonight we fought these demon things, they have DR 10/ something and also have what I can only assume is displacement. My paladin has the Complete Champion feat, Awesome Smite, which if you don't know, allows me to as a tactical maneuver, either bypass DR up to twice my CHA, or automatically bypass miss chance (there's also a third maneuver but it doesn't matter here.) And he refused to honor the feat, which he approved.
I was okay with not bypassing the DR, what if it's DR/epic I thought. But when he decided that I can't use the feat at all because he doesn't remember it, I just walked out.
This is the same DM that made us auto fail checks to have our gear stolen and put us in a no win scenario where we either kill the BBEG and our stolen stuff turns to stone, our we don't kill the BBEG and we die....
DM god complex/ entitled player/ this is why I took over as DM/ this is why I switched to Pathfinder/rant/thread
DM decides that you don't have things in your build that he allowed in the first place? Well then I guess he wouldn't be my DM anymore either. The DM know everything about the word, if the play can't know his character because things may or may not be valid at anytime, how is that player suppose to interact rationally with the world?
Now your second example of gear destruction, I don't agree with. If the DM creates a Saw (horror movie) situation for the PCs that is valid narrative. Part of playing is interacting with the DMs world. If he makes a no-win situation, you either have to get creative or bite the bullet. (Although he does seem like the DM that would make up poop to prevent creative solutions, which is not cool, but not a deal breaker)
Unlike changing a character's build retroactively to make your encounter harder. That is a deal breaker. I expect at least the BS "because magic" excuse when something like that happens. The meta-game "I don't like that feat anymore" does not fly. As a PC that game would no longer be fun and has nothing left to offer me. I would leave. The DM obviously doesn't care about narrative so he can make up some reason the now NPC disappears with all of his gear (If anyone is still left at the table after such a display of terrible DMing).
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The mistake Durngrun made was making an odd semantic point that served no purpose whatsoever.
That sounds harsh, I know. I actually agree with him. Technically, yes, breaking a social contract is rude, just as stabbing someone is violent. Violence is an inherently bad thing, right? But stabbing someone in self-defense is perfectly fine. Duh.
The "good" of leaving a group that's being unpleasant outweighs the "rude" so heavily it's not worth bringing up. So I don't really know why Durngrun thought it was important to mention that, outweighed or not, the rude is still very technically there.
It's just irrelevant. Two pages of ridiculousness.
Yes, we are all individuals!
We are Borg
The mistake Durngrun made was making an odd semantic point that served no purpose whatsoever.
That sounds harsh, I know. I actually agree with him. Technically, yes, breaking a social contract is rude, just as stabbing someone is violent. Violence is an inherently bad thing, right? But stabbing someone in self-defense is perfectly fine. Duh.
The "good" of leaving a group that's being unpleasant outweighs the "rude" so heavily it's not worth bringing up. So I don't really know why Durngrun thought it was important to mention that, outweighed or not, the rude is still very technically there.
It's just irrelevant. Two pages of ridiculousness.
Exactly, it IS rude to break a social contract. Your reasons for doing it only serve to get it excused or held against you, and that part depends entirely on the person in question. Walking out on a game because you just aren't having fun might be excused in the eyes of only two out of the four other players. You still were rude, but only two are going to hold it against you, the other two think you had good enough reason to be rude.
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The trouble is, there's little point in mentioning rudeness if you are justified. Sure, the woman leaving the table because she's being harassed is displaying an absolutely minute amount of rudeness, but it's rudeness those present definitely deserve. Pointing out that the rudeness is still present is just pedantic in the extreme.
NO ONE is going to fault someone who was sexually harassed for being rude in return. What a load of... The situation IS someone who just didn't like the play style and decided to be rude and walk out. And as long as even ONE person is finding the action inexcusable then YES it is worth mentioning.
Denying it is rude just cause YOU don't want it to be is the worst sort of delusional.
Saying it is rude just because YOU want it to be isn't any better.
Nobody cares what the one guy thinks except the guy himself. It's a safe bet to say that if 4 people have no problem with it and one person gets pissy about it then that's a problem with the one person, not the supposedly rude individual.
I think I only ever walked out of one game, mid-combat, and it was because the GM decided it would be cool to run a game for somewhere around 14 players at once. In three hours, I'd had maybe two minutes to describe what I was doing and then when an actual combat started, I had one turn and then waited around 40 minutes for my next turn in initiative before finally quietly packing up and leaving. The GM was so busy trying to wrangle all the other players, nobody even noticed me leave.
I had a situation like that when I told a player she could bring a couple friends. A couple has a numeric value.
She brought six.I didn't even know what I was doing... Two other players also invited someone unannounced.
Tell that to Rynjin Jr after you skip out on his soccer games and family events because you think it's funner hanging with your co-workers.
The mistake Durngrun made was making an odd semantic point that served no purpose whatsoever.
Are you saying you're anti-semantic?
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I almost did once. Well twice.
The first time, it was both me and almost the entire party. I don't remember the group size at the time, but something like 6-8 players. We where playing at a female friend's house, and her brother decided to DM the next (3.5) game, starting at level 33, I believe. Maybe 23, I honestly don't remember. I want to say 33, because he allowed 1 of the players to create a Paragon (race) Human Wizard, and I am pretty sure he didn't know a thing about what he was talking about and just said that the +to CR would serve as the Level Adj. and he wound up playing something like a 17th Level Paragon Human Wizard. I made a Lich Cleric (of himself), that used the Shadow Weave, that was going out of his way to aid random common folk. I used an Epic Spell from one of the final FR books, that allowed me to create multiple Phylacteries, something I would create as rings and holy symbols (of me) and hand out to random people promising that in their darkest hour, or that of any of their children, if they but asked while holding the item, I would come and help them.
After a few games, we come to our first big BBEG, which just happens to be Shar, an individual I had made a deal with to increase the power of the Shadow Weave in exchange for her never revealing that I used it and would kill that b*&+% Mystra for her. At this point, most of the party was like "Um,. . . no.", but the DM had basically based his entire premise on us murdering Shar, even though most of us followed her, (a lot of Mystra/the Weave crap hate in that group), and literally forced us to murder her. I then became the controller of the Shadow Weave, and at this point everyone is like "wtf!!! seriously?!?!".
So next game, the world ends. Yep, as part of the beginning narrative, the world ends. It was all the DM's gimmick to create his new game's epic level BBEGs, (that is to say the characters we had just spent literal weeks creating) as his NPC's, while we started off as underpowered 1st level players in his new Midnight Setting. Now, if you don't know, Midnight is a 3E game that is almost literally a Lord of the Rings if they had never had the Fellowship meeting, and evil had won. Literally, the Shadow is Sauron won and established his eternal world controlling empire of evil that no on can ever beat. (Don't get me wrong, it actually is pretty cool, just not in the context of the crap the DM had just pulled). I had spent weeks both creating my own character, but also a character for my new gamer girlfriend, that was a Werewolf Lord Frenzied Berserker. My character was unkillable. A Lich that literally had phylacteries all over the damn world. I want to say well over 500 hundred of them, not to mention though evil, had gone out of his way to establish a strong, faithful, loyal following amongst the underbelly of society in an attempt to achieve true deityhood. A paragon Wizard whose weakest stat was in the 40's, and could do not only Epic level magic with no issue, (yah I'm going to design a spell that deals 200 damage to me in backlash damage, that I heal from in one round to drop the Epic Level DC to nothing), and all kinds of craziness. So we all basically walked out at that point.
The other time, I was bored, and one friend was running a solo game for the other. He said I could make a character real fast and jump in, but to keep in mind this was a solo game for the other, so I shouldn't really expect too much spotlight and not to worry about too much background. I was cool with that, and just wanted to play a few hours. So I did, made up a 7th level Dread necromancer, something I'd been wanting to for a while and just hadn't had the chance to. Took about an hour. So I jump in, while the main guy's in this big fight. We both assumed that the DM had been going a bit slow kind of waiting on me so I could jump in just in time. First round: "Hey guy, you need help over there?". . . "yah, I could really use a hand", I rush in, charging at it with my Scyth, Nat 19. That's a miss. Next round I get hit every single time by these guys, all able to charge and do 5 attacks, and am literally at -200 HP, in the first round, of the first game.
I walked away, (though I was well beyond dead, so what else could I do), and my other friend, who had been playing solo, basically looked at the DM and was like "That's pretty sh%^#&@, I think I'm done too."
Tell that to Rynjin Jr after you skip out on his soccer games and family events because you think it's funner hanging with your co-workers.
Chances are more than just Rynjin Jr. will think its wrong. Possibly Mr. Rynjin's friends. Definitely Mrs. Rynjin. I think it misses the mark about leaving the game and calling it rude though.
I don't think its rude to leave a game. I think how you leave can be rude however. I understand life can be varied and the like. I feel like this has devolved by turning into a conversation about what's rude, especially when people think there's a certain point where you can leave but the line just changes between people. As it should, as we are different people...
NO ONE is going to fault someone who was sexually harassed for being rude in return. What a load of... The situation IS someone who just didn't like the play style and decided to be rude and walk out. And as long as even ONE person is finding the action inexcusable then YES it is worth mentioning.
Denying it is rude just cause YOU don't want it to be is the worst sort of delusional.
Are you talking to me?
*Watches as the thread goes farther off track from the subject*
I've only walked away after combat/getting slaughtered by dm fiat.
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Last night I almost had a panic attack during an encounter with an aspect of Lamashtu.
The monster had an aura that made people pregnant with rapidly growing tentacle monsters that would erupt from available orifices.
It got to me so deeply that I could barely focus on the game and spent a while trying to stop my heart from feeling like it was going to fail.
I walked out a few times, spending a while in the kitchen with a glass of water.
I don't blame the GM. It was standard stuff for Lamashtu-plot and wasn't unexpected. I didn't know how badly I'd be affected by the themes involved.
You're built of sturdier stuff than I am, I would have left.