The group may understand and forgive your rudeness (have to work, family emergency, etc.).Andy: "Steve left the game because his wife was dying."
Frank: "Tch. Rude. But I guess it can be forgiven."
Closer but,
"I apologize for being rude but something has come up that takes precedent."
Again, I can't imagine a group of friends that would take issue with it but it doesn't mean it's not rude.
Then I am ruthlessly and unrepentantly rude.
Were I to judge you by this one post then I would agree (but that would be rude).
No, I'm saying:
"I know it's rude to leave but I'm unwilling to put up with your behavior any longer."
How is it rude? It's only good sense!
Would you have this discussion with your daughter?
"Honey, you're going to a party tonight, and I know you're very excited. Now, I want to tell you, there might be some boys there who aren't going to respect you as a person. They might say some things that are scary and threatening.
Your mother and I have talked to you about politeness. If you leave, it'll be rude, so you'll have to balance out how bad the situation gets, and whether or not you want people to think you're impolite.
Now, go have a fun time."
Me? I don't want there to be any level of confusion. If someone is being threatening in any way, it's not rude if you choose not to stick around. It's smart.
No second thoughts. Just. Leave.
I find it hard to imagine a group of people that are perfectly accepting of sexual harrasment but real sticklers for social etiquette.
And I find it hard to imagine that there's someone who would think it was rude to walk away from sexual harassment ON ANY LEVEL!
It is not rude to leave an event because your spouse is ill.
It is but I can't think of anyone who would hold it against you.
The group may understand and forgive your rudeness (have to work, family emergency, etc.).Andy: "Steve left the game because his wife was dying."
Frank: "Tch. Rude. But I guess it can be forgiven."
Closer but,
"I apologize for being rude but something has come up that takes precedent."
Again, I can't imagine a group of friends that would take issue with it but it doesn't mean it's not rude.
Huh. You and I have very different definitions of rude. That being the case, I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on this.
It's been an interesting discussion. Thanks.
|
I've never walked out on a game mid-combat, but i have left a session early. My character was unexpectedly killed and I didn't have anything else to do but be a spectator. I had been working a lot of OT that week and was tired and, in general, just not feeling it. So I excused myself and went home.
Because my character had been killed, my group (most of them good friends since college) thought I was upset. It didn't take much to convince them otherwise. :D
-Skeld
Wow, some of you all have played in some seriously messed up games that are beyond the pale and I'm not sure I would do. Reading Haladirs first story I might have punched a player or two before I left.
I've always had the luxury in 25+ years of playing RPG's with friends, and/or people friends can vouch for. So walking out would obviously be rude. I forget that a lot of gamers meet up at conventions, hobby shops or meet up's.
Some weird people out there...
No, I'm saying:
"I know it's rude to leave but I'm unwilling to put up with your behavior any longer."
How is it rude? It's only good sense!
Would you have this discussion with your daughter?
"Honey, you're going to a party tonight, and I know you're very excited. Now, I want to tell you, there might be some boys there who aren't going to respect you as a person. They might say some things that are scary and threatening.
Your mother and I have talked to you about politeness. If you leave, it'll be rude, so you'll have to balance out how bad the situation gets, and whether or not you want people to think you're impolite.
Now, go have a fun time."
Me? I don't want there to be any level of confusion. If someone is being threatening in any way, it's not rude if you choose not to stick around. It's smart.
No second thoughts. Just. Leave.
I find it hard to imagine a group of people that are perfectly accepting of sexual harrasment but real sticklers for social etiquette.And I find it hard to imagine that there's someone who would think it was rude to walk away from sexual harassment ON ANY LEVEL!
I have taught my daughter proper manners and that she does not have to put up with sexual harrasment of any kind for any reason. I do not see a contradiction in that statement.
You and I have very different definitions of rude.
Edit: In fact, if someone DID hold it against you, would they become the rude ones? Would you both be rude? Would they cancel out?
If you promised to drive your friend to the airport but had to take your wife to the hospital instead, would you apologize to your friend?
Edit: And yes, if they did hold that against you I would consider it rude.
If you promised to drive your friend to the airport but had to take your wife to the hospital instead, would you apologize to your friend?You and I have very different definitions of rude.
Edit: In fact, if someone DID hold it against you, would they become the rude ones? Would you both be rude? Would they cancel out?
I would apologize for the inconvenience it's causing my friend, but I'd be pretty surprised if someone thought I was being "rude" in that situation.
Or, to put it another way, if someone had offered to take me to the airport, but then had to take a spouse to the hospital, I'd be pretty upset with them if they didn't do the hospital thing. There's no way I'd consider that person rude, nor would I think they had done anything that merited forgiveness.
I have taught my daughter proper manners and that she does not have to put up with sexual harrasment of any kind for any reason. I do not see a contradiction in that statement.
I don't either. But then I don't think it's improper manners (read: rude) to walk away from a bad situation, despite whatever social obligation I might have incurred to be there.
If you promised to drive your friend to the airport but had to take your wife to the hospital instead, would you apologize to your friend?You and I have very different definitions of rude.
Edit: In fact, if someone DID hold it against you, would they become the rude ones? Would you both be rude? Would they cancel out?
I would apologize for the inconvenience it's causing my friend, but I'd be pretty surprised if someone thought I was being "rude" in that situation.
Or, to put it another way, if someone had offered to take me to the airport, but then had to take a spouse to the hospital, I'd be pretty upset with them if they didn't do the hospital thing. There's no way I'd consider that person rude, nor would I think they had done anything that merited forgiveness.
If someone promised to take you, then never showed up, never called to let you know, and never mentioned the situation ever again, what would you think of that person?
If someone promised to take you, then never showed up, never called to let you know, and never mentioned the situation ever again, what would you think of that person?If you promised to drive your friend to the airport but had to take your wife to the hospital instead, would you apologize to your friend?You and I have very different definitions of rude.
Edit: In fact, if someone DID hold it against you, would they become the rude ones? Would you both be rude? Would they cancel out?
I would apologize for the inconvenience it's causing my friend, but I'd be pretty surprised if someone thought I was being "rude" in that situation.
Or, to put it another way, if someone had offered to take me to the airport, but then had to take a spouse to the hospital, I'd be pretty upset with them if they didn't do the hospital thing. There's no way I'd consider that person rude, nor would I think they had done anything that merited forgiveness.
Two different things.
1) Not taking me to the airport because their spouse was in the hospital? Not rude.
2)Not letting me know, ever, as to why? Rude.
I would not think them rude for not taking me, I would think them rude for not eventually explaining why.
If you promised to drive your friend to the airport but had to take your wife to the hospital instead, would you apologize to your friend?Having to apologize for something does not mean you were rude. Not apologizing could very well be rude.
If its not rude, why are you apologizing? Again, I'm not saying: "Don't take your wife to the hospital." I'm not saying: "You have to stay and put up with sexual harrasment." Your actions can be "rude" (as per proper etiquette) and the "right thing to do." I'm surprised this is such a hard concept.
If someone promised to take you, then never showed up, never called to let you know, and never mentioned the situation ever again, what would you think of that person?If you promised to drive your friend to the airport but had to take your wife to the hospital instead, would you apologize to your friend?You and I have very different definitions of rude.
Edit: In fact, if someone DID hold it against you, would they become the rude ones? Would you both be rude? Would they cancel out?
I would apologize for the inconvenience it's causing my friend, but I'd be pretty surprised if someone thought I was being "rude" in that situation.
Or, to put it another way, if someone had offered to take me to the airport, but then had to take a spouse to the hospital, I'd be pretty upset with them if they didn't do the hospital thing. There's no way I'd consider that person rude, nor would I think they had done anything that merited forgiveness.
Two different things.
1) Not taking me to the airport because their spouse was in the hospital? Not rude.
2)Not letting me know, ever, as to why? Rude.
I would not think them rude for not taking me, I would think them rude for not eventually explaining why.
It is rude to break your promise. The situation may force you to but that doesn't change the fact that it is still rude to break your promise. Yes, the friend would understand. No, a reasonable person would not hold it against you. But it is still rude.
If your friend didn't take you to the airport because they wanted to see the new Star Trek movie, would that be rude? If so, why? Their action is the same, only the reason has changed. Is their behavior rude?
If its not rude, why are you apologizing?Because not apologizing would be rude.
The fact that you keep having to come up with different examples to prove your point should tell you something.
So do you apologize for non-rude actions? "Hey, I bought you a gift, sorry."
I'm trying to explain my reasoning to you. If you failed to understand, why would I simply repeat my example over and over again?
Which is a better teaching method?
"2+2 is 4"
"I don't get it."
"2+2 is 4"
Or
"2+2 is 4"
"I don't get it."
"Well, if you have 2, then you get 2 more, you have 4."
If your friend didn't take you to the airport because they wanted to see the new Star Trek movie, would that be rude? If so, why? Their action is the same, only the reason has changed. Is their behavior rude?
The action is not the same. The results are the same.
Their action is either a) going to see a Star Trek movie, or b) taking their spouse to a hospital.
The results are the same; I don't get a ride from them to the airport.
In the Star Trek situation, it's being rude. In the spouse to the hospital situation, I can't see that as rude.
It is rude to break your promise.
Here's where we differ. I don't believe it is unconditionally rude to break one's promise.
I apologize for actions that would be rude
Exactly, the action is rude. The reason is justified. Is that clearer?
If your friend didn't take you to the airport because they wanted to see the new Star Trek movie, would that be rude? If so, why? Their action is the same, only the reason has changed. Is their behavior rude?The action is not the same. The results are the same.
Their action is either a) going to see a Star Trek movie, or b) taking their spouse to a hospital.
The results are the same; I don't get a ride from them to the airport.
In the Star Trek situation, it's being rude. In the spouse to the hospital situation, I can't see that as rude.
Their action is they did not take you to the airport. Their reason for doing so changed.
Their action is rude. One reason is justified, one is not.
It is rude to break your promise.Here's where we differ. I don't believe it is unconditionally rude to break one's promise.
By the proper rules of etiquette, you are wrong. For being so rudely blunt, I apologize.
I apologize for actions that would be rudeExactly, the action is rude. The reason is justified. Is that clearer?
He's not necessarily apologizing for rudeness!
If I were to leave somebody stranded at the airport it would inconvenience them. If I did it without ever explaining, or apologizing for that inconvenience that would be rude.
If I had a good reason, I wouldn't construe that action as rude. If I just wanted to see a movie, that would be.
But if I didn't apologize for inconveniencing them, THAT would be rude in any case.
Editted so as not to call someone silly. Apologies.
By the proper rules of etiquette, you are wrong. For being so rudely blunt, I apologize.
It is rude to break your promise.Here's where we differ. I don't believe it is unconditionally rude to break one's promise.
Rules of etiquette are not universal.
No, it's not clearer. Maybe once the caffeine takes effect.
Lets try a more extreme example (that's what you do on the Internet, right?)
You kill a guy.
If he was trying to kill you, then you acted in self defense. Completely justified.
If he looked at you funny, then you are a murderer.
In both cases, you killed a guy.
If your friend didn't take you to the airport because they wanted to see the new Star Trek movie, would that be rude? If so, why? Their action is the same, only the reason has changed. Is their behavior rude?The action is not the same. The results are the same.
Their action is either a) going to see a Star Trek movie, or b) taking their spouse to a hospital.
The results are the same; I don't get a ride from them to the airport.
In the Star Trek situation, it's being rude. In the spouse to the hospital situation, I can't see that as rude.
Their action is they did not take you to the airport. Their reason for doing so changed.
Their action is rude. One reason is justified, one is not.
Okay. I can see we're not going to get past this point. I am officially invoking internet clause A7, sub-clause 2.
I hereby officially agree to disagree.
I apologize for actions that would be rudeExactly, the action is rude. The reason is justified. Is that clearer?No, silly! He's not necessarily apologizing for rudeness!
If I were to leave somebody stranded at the airport it would inconvenience them. If I did it without ever explaining, or apologizing for that inconvenience that would be rude.
If I had a good reason, I wouldn't construe that action as rude. If I just wanted to see a movie, that would be.
But if I didn't apologize for inconveniencing them, THAT would be rude in any case.
See, you are saying, since the reason is forgivable, then the action isn't rude. I understand your concept, it's just wrong (again, sorry).
Of course you forgive the guy who took his wife to the hospital. As I said earlier, it would be rude not to. However, the fact that you forgive him (even automatically) proves his action was rude because you have forgiven him for the rude action.
Think of it this way. How many times a day do you say please and thank you? You probably can't even count, am I right? For most people the behavior just becomes ingrained. They almost seem meaningless. Now, try not saying them ever and see how people react.
See, you are saying, since the reason is forgivable, then the action isn't rude. I understand your concept, it's just wrong (again, sorry).
I am not saying that.
I can forgive a rude action. I can forgive anything I want to. My forgiveness has no reflection on the action.
I wasn't forgiving rudeness. I was forgiving inconvenience.
Of course you forgive the guy who took his wife to the hospital. As I said earlier, it would be rude not to. However, the fact that you forgive him (even automatically) proves his action was rude because you have forgiven him for the rude action.
Nope. I explained what I was forgiving. Not rudeness, but inconvenience.
The fact that we can't even agree on what it means to be rude means that we're never going to come to an agreement. I have my definition, you have yours.
Internet clause A7, sub-clause 2.
Think of it this way. How many times a day do you say please and thank you? You probably can't even count, am I right? For most people the behavior just becomes ingrained. They almost seem meaningless. Now, try not saying them ever and see how people react.
This isn't even...
Sigh. I'm not sure how this is germane to the discussion. But honestly, you can stop trying. I'm not convinced of your argument, and I can't see me coming around any time soon. :)
And I'll stop trying to convince you. Win/win.
You kill a guy.
If he was trying to kill you, then you acted in self defense. Completely justified.
If he looked at you funny, then you are a murderer.
In both cases, you killed a guy.
You leave the game.
If you were being harassed, then you acted to maintain your self-respect.
If the game wasn't fun, then you are leaving because you perceive better ways to spend your time.
In both cases, you have left the game... and that makes you a bad person automatically?
You know, I feel as though you might have wanted to refrain from murder comparisons. Besides subconsciously causing us to equate game-leaving with taking the life of a human being; it's a fallacy, and meant to startle more than argue your point cogently.
No, it's not clearer. Maybe once the caffeine takes effect.Lets try a more extreme example (that's what you do on the Internet, right?)
You kill a guy.
If he was trying to kill you, then you acted in self defense. Completely justified.
If he looked at you funny, then you are a murderer.
In both cases, you killed a guy.
This analogy is flawed, much like your others. Circumstances decide rudeness, not actions in and of themselves.
If you need to take you wife to the hospital and stand up your friend, you are not being rude. In any way, shape or form whatsoever.
If you stand him up because you wanted to go watch a movie, you are being rude. And selfish. And probably aren't really the guy's friend.
Both results are the same (the guy doesn't get to the airport). The circumstances are not. ONe is an emergency, the other is selfishness. Only one is rude.
If you kill a man in self-defense, you killed a man to save your own life. Not murder.
If you straight up murder a guy, you have killed him for whatever personal (or impersonal) reason, and are a murderer.
The results are the same (a guy is dead) but the cirumstances are not. One is murder, one is defense. Only one is considered "unacceptable".
I hereby officially agree to disagree.
I honestly don't think we are disagreeing as much as we are talking past each other.
If I may,
You seem to be saying, "Well, yes that's rude but c'mon. The guy's wife had to go to the hospital. Of course I'm not going to hold that against him and anybody that did would be a jerk!"
Except you skip the "Well, yes that's rude" part and go straight to the end. I'm trying to point out the steps along the way. I'm not saying they are a "bad person."
Think of it in terms of alignment (this always helps every discussion). You can be a good person and commit an evil act and not be evil. Just because you were rude once does not mean you are a rude person.
This analogy is flawed,
All analogies are inherently flawed.
In both cases, you have left the game... and that makes you a bad person automatically?
Not once in this discussion have I said someone was a bad person.
I hereby officially agree to disagree.
I honestly don't think we are disagreeing as much as we are talking past each other.
If I may,
You seem to be saying, "Well, yes that's rude but c'mon. The guy's wife had to go to the hospital. Of course I'm not going to hold that against him and anybody that did would be a jerk!"
Except you skip the "Well, yes that's rude" part and go straight to the end. I'm trying to point out the steps along the way. I'm not saying they are a "bad person."Think of it in terms of alignment (this always helps every discussion). You can be a good person and commit an evil act and not be evil. Just because you were rude once does not mean you are a rude person.
Dear Durngrun,
We are talking at cross purposes. The problem is we really disagree about what being rude means. As we disagree about the basic definition, everything else is moot, there's no way we can come to consensus.
I get what you're saying, and I think you understand me, we just don't agree.
:)
And that's okay.
Whether or not somebody is being rude in any given situation is entirely dependent on the reactions of those involved. The concept of rudeness is not enforced by some invisible yet universal ruleset. Rudeness is determined by whether or not the people experiencing the situation deems that behavior as rude, and even then it is extremely subjective. Outside people who hear of the same situation can have their own opinions as well, but this too adds to the overall nebulous and subjective nature of what rudeness really is. What it really comes down to is what each persons stance is on the matter, something that cannot be determined to have one standard emotional response. To assume that a single set of strictures represent the vast spectrum of human emotion and ethics is to ignore the fact that our laws are entirely figments themselves.
TLDR; You can't force your narrow code of conduct on everybody else.
Leaving early isn't rude., but the manner in which you leave early could be.
This. The last time I left it was because they told me they would end by 6, it was 9, and they were talking about maybe going until 12(started at 11 AM, and said I couldn't go for 12 hour sessions for health reasons). I had set up a ride that night and had other plans, and the session was running far longer than I thought, and I sure wasn't going to tell the person I was depending on for a ride to wait until midnight because I wanted to play games. So I politely said I would have to leave before the session ended, and that I would stay as long as I could. I left at 9:30 and they played until 12:30. I did what I could and wasn't rude or demanding, just stating what I had to. They then killed of my character and his family while I was gone, and I decided I didn't like that group.
I had to leave mid combat yeah, but I gave everyone a heads up that I couldn't stay too long, and even said I would and asked if that was okay. I don't feel I was rude for having to leave.
You can't force your narrow code of conduct on everybody else.
Not trying to, merely trying to explain what "rude" means.
You can't force your narrow code of conduct on everybody else.Not trying to, merely trying to explain what "rude" means.
I think I can explain what it means pretty easily.
Definition of rude (adj)
Bing Dictionary
rude
[ rood ]
1.ill-mannered: disagreeable or discourteous in manner or action
2.indecent: offensive to accepted standards of decency
3.unrefined: lacking refinement or social skills
I think it might be better to say this is what you personally define as rude, while others may disagree. These thigns can be very subjective, particularly on subjects of ethics and morality.
Rudeness ... is a display of disrespect by not complying with the social "laws" or etiquette of a group or culture.
Is leaving early 'rude' by this definition? Only if one of the group's unspoken rules is "you do not leave early".
Edit: (Note that leaving early with an apology or explanation isn't rude by this definition if the 'law' is something like "you do not leave early without a good reason".)
No, it's not clearer. Maybe once the caffeine takes effect.Lets try a more extreme example (that's what you do on the Internet, right?)
You kill a guy.
If he was trying to kill you, then you acted in self defense. Completely justified.
If he looked at you funny, then you are a murderer.
In both cases, you killed a guy.
In both situations, you get up from the table and leave. YOU believe that the act of leaving is in-and-of-itself rude. While one can certainly leave "in a rude manner", one can also leave in a polite manner.
If I left politely, would that mean I was being rude and polite at the same time?
If I left politely, would that mean I was being rude and polite at the same time?
Yes (weird, huh?).
All analogies are inherently flawed.
This analogy is flawed,
That was a neat sidestep to the rest of my post.