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So, I'm wondering. How much should AC go up each level to stay competitive with the BBEG and stuff you'll meet? Is a 1 AC upgrade each level enough? More? Less? Anyone ever look at the monsters and how much more powerful they get each level?
It depends on a character's combat role. A decent rule of thumb for a melee combatant who expects to go toe-to-toe is a target AC of 20+level. Exact situations will vary. The monster creation chart is a decent reference for this. At 20+level, a typical creature that is CR (your level+3) has a 35% chance of hitting.
Here's a start: Monster Creation Guidelines
It shows about the average for a certain CR. EDIT: Ninja'd on this part.
Although it isn't set in stone. I've seen AC 30ish be a good hard to hit number around level 8, and AC 35 is pretty difficult to hit. However, you are going to want to get a good CMD as well as Touch AC for other options, and be able to pose a threat to enemies, or they will turn their attention away.
But yeah, +1 AC/level isn't enough (although it is a start.) Also note some GMs may not be happy with it.
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Or alternatively, echoing asthyril's comment: Make sure they don't get a chance to make AC become a problem.
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Fot what it is worth, I once did a census of opponents abilities over 2 scenarios in season 0.
The values might not be representative, but the highest went like this :
Tier 1-2 (scenario A and B)
Max AC = 20
Max CMB = 13
Max Fort save = 16
Max Ref save = 16
Max Will save = 17
Max To Hit = 7
Tier 3-4 (scenario A only)
Max AC = 19
Max CMB = 19
Max Fort save = 22
Max Ref save = 18
Max Will save = 17
Max To Hit = 17
Tier 4-5 (scenario B only)
Max AC = 20
Max CMB = 13
Max Fort save = 14
Max Ref save = NA
Max Will save = NA
Max To Hit = 8
Tier 6-7 (scenario A only)
Max AC = 19
Max CMB = 19
Max Fort save = 22
Max Ref save = 18
Max Will save = 17
Max To Hit = 17
Highest skill DC = 20
Obviously, this would need far more data to be really useful, but I did not have enough time or motivation to go beyond that.
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I have observed if you start with a 20AC and add 1AC per level you start off getting hit roughly 25% of the time and as you level you will see yourself start getting hit to 75% of the time at level 12, with some monsters only failing on a Nat1(like big bad nasty dragons). This is by no means to say my results are typical, it is just what I have observed in playing my characters.
AC is hard to say at level 10 you need to have 39AC because if you run up against an incorporeal creature, that 39AC isn't going to be a big deal. Just go with what you feel is right and if you can afford to become more armored go for it, it certainly can't hurt.
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I can't rightly comment on the pacing of AC for PFS. From my observation, it seems pretty typical of any relatively standard game. The best thing you can do for yourself in terms of keeping AC relevant and/or untouchable is to always buy the cheapest upgrades first. I often see this get overlooked. An example order of upgrades:
armor +1: 1,000 gp
ring of protection +1: 2,000 gp
amulet of natural armor +1: 2,000 gp
From there, it is cheaper to raise your armor to +2 for +3,000 gp. After that upgrade, taking armor +3, buying a dusty rose prism ioun stone, and buying a jingasa of the fortunate soldier are all equal in cost. Then upgrading the ring/amulet to +2 is cheaper than armor to +4, ect ect.
It may not be as satisfying as jumping right in to that +5 full plate, but it will stretch your buck much farther.
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Speaking as a person whose highest level character is a barbarian I tend to find simply killing the target is the best AC. That is, of course, if you're running a high damage build. Unfortunately AC seems to become less and less useful as you go. You'll begin frequently encountering opponents that are probably not going to miss even with a monstrously high AC once you get into tier 7-9 stuff and up. My barbarian is an armored hulk meaning his AC is actually really good, but honestly? I've decided not to waste my gold getting it higher than it already is. It's not worth it anymore. Focus on having a good HP pool and get some form of DR if you can. If you have the gold to burn for AC do it, but otherwise? Nah. Again this advice depends entirely on if your character build can handle pure offense or not.
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Speaking as a person whose highest level character is a barbarian I tend to find simply killing the target is the best AC. That is, of course, if you're running a high damage build. Unfortunately AC seems to become less and less useful as you go. You'll begin frequently encountering opponents that are probably not going to miss even with a monstrously high AC once you get into tier 7-9 stuff and up. My barbarian is an armored hulk meaning his AC is actually really good, but honestly? I've decided not to waste my gold getting it higher than it already is. It's not worth it anymore. Focus on having a good HP pool and get some form of DR if you can. If you have the gold to burn for AC do it, but otherwise? Nah. Again this advice depends entirely on if your character build can handle pure offense or not.
If you are willing to sacrifice in other areas for it, it is very possible to score a huge AC that will effectively make you untouchable. My 16th level monk runs with a base 42, which is not bad. But after he barkskin's himself (thank you qinggong monk) and enters crane style he just sits on 53 AC. If really hard pressed (which has never happened), he'll employ combat expertise for 4 more, use ki dodge for 4 more, and cast shield from his spell storing item for 4 more. Nothing in this setting comes anywhere close to 65 AC without a nat 20 hit, which will just get crane winged away.
Now about those sacrifices, his base to hit is +26 at 16th level. Not so good. Use crane and combat expertise, and he's down to +22. Needless to say he sometimes misses alot.
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Yeah, I'll give you that one. You can make significant sacrifices in other areas to attain a very high AC. Of course, not every class is capable of getting it that high to begin with. Monks in general have a far easier time of running their AC up than some others if that's what they really want to focus on. I suppose ultimately it just boils down to play styles.
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...barbarian...killing the target is the best AC
Good advice. My level 12 barbarian/rogue has an AC of 3 when he is fully buffed, but with 205 hit points and roughly averaging 34 points of damage per hit, he's feeling okay with a low AC, especially when there is a healbot with shield other around :-)
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I'm not sure your cleric needs an insane AC unless he's going into melee combat.
It seems at high level you get hit no matter what, although AC certainly helps with the iterative attacks. At high levels, your DPR (damage you do), concealment effects (displacement, blur), and movement (if you have 6 guys doing DPR, do you REALLY have to stand toe to toe with the thing that attacks 8 times per round?) matter a lot more.
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Oh good, another supporter of the hand of God method. Three AC? Yeah, I can see a barbarian pulling that one off. Mine sits at a respectable 20 AC while raging. Haven't gotten to use him since I last leveled him up, but I estimate his damage per hit to be around 26. It's four levels below yours at the moment.
Anywho, back on topic! Seems to me this all boils down to a matter of opinion, ultimately. There are those such as my fellow barbarian player up there and myself that like to simply smash things till they quit twitching, the accomplished tank monk mentioned above, and so on and so forth. You should try to find what you are comfortable with rather than worrying about the absolute best AC you can have. Sometimes there are better alternatives available to you.
Jebus H Bunny Hoffa.
Most PCs I run into playing PFS in the northeast US rarely have ACs in the 30s. The majority have from 20s to 25s, edging up to 25-30 at levels above 8. Perhaps a little higher if they are frontline. They all seem to do just fine.
I had to doubletake at reading recommended ACs in the 30s to 60s. Even in Season 4 that's way overkill for most fights.
From a powergamer's perspective, you don't need to stop ALL damage, just enough to not be dead by the end of the fight. Much more is just inefficient.
-j
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It also depends on your role in the group. If you are a front-liner and going to be the target of most attacks, then a high AC is a good idea, unless you have A LOT of HP. If you are a support PC, cost vs. reward is an important component. Will boosting your AC another point or two mean you have to wait for the next item that supports your primary role in the party? If so, AC might not be a big concern. I see a lot of high-level casters (wizard/sorcerer/etc) with AC's in the low to mid 'teens and they survive just fine.
One thing to remember at high levels, for all but the uber-optimized AC monkey, the enemy's first attack is probably going to hit no matter what your AC is. So don't stress about it so much. The key, especially for front-liners is to boost your AC to the point that the iterative attacks will miss. That and try to keep moving. Sure that might mean that your tank only gets one attack per round, but think group over solo tactics. You have an edge in economy of actions, use it. Don't let the baddies neutralize that advantage by getting to stand in place and blast you with their best attacks.
With all of this, of course, YMMV.
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I don't think anyone in our local group has cracked 30 yet for their normal AC. Or maybe one character just recently, who is level 10. Most aren't even at 20 until around level 3 or 4. My ninja is at 22 base at level 7 and tends to frontline. She's at 26 when buffed (Shield from a spell storing item or UMD wand), can reach 30 when she sneak attacks (Offensive Defense), and a little higher if fighting defensively. So when she needs to hold the line, she usually can. But at those numbers, she's easily one of the higher ACs, if not the highest, unless there's someone running around in Field or Full Plate.
On the other hand, I've got a sword and board fighter that's at 23 at level 2. He's build as more of a mobile Tank, though, and concentrates on protecting others more than dealing direct damage, so he's definitely sacrificed DPS to get to that number.
And at the other extreme, I've got a Fighter/Oracle level 4 that runs around with a 13 and boosts it to a 15 with revelations. He's admittedly a little behind the curve, but that's due to a death (AC wouldn't have made a difference unless it went up by 10+) and being broke as a result.
For the most part, they all do fine as long as I play to their strengths and remember their weaknesses.
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I recent played with a monk below the level 10 mark already sporting an AC of 30. It was also capable of dealing a moderate amount of damage, not to mention having some utility in the form of converting ki points to certain magics. Have to say it was a unique build, and one that worked well the few times I got to see it in action.
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My problem with all this is that having a reasonably good AC doesn't seem to matter at any level. Why even wear armor at lvl. 3 if you are a priest if everything can get through your AC at every level. So is it just a waste of gp to buy AC upgrades if you are anything other than a monk or a fighter with full plate + shield?
Its appears to be the case.
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My problem with all this is that having a reasonably good AC doesn't seem to matter at any level. Why even wear armor at lvl. 3 if you are a priest if everything can get through your AC at every level. So is it just a waste of gp to buy AC upgrades if you are anything other than a monk or a fighter with full plate + shield?
Its appears to be the case.
Don't forget about paladins and cavaliers. They're also quite capable of running their AC up, though it's not advisable in some cases. I've got level 3-4 cavalier that's already sporting an AC close to 30. And this is without sacrificing his offense. Still, the fact remains that at higher tiers you're liable to start taking hits religiously anyway. Like I said before, it's ultimately a matter of play style and priorities. AC is important, but it's not the most important thing in most cases. Take a cleric for example. Yeah, you could run its AC up, but would you? There are any number of possibilities, some less optimal than others. At the end of the day just have fun.
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I had to doubletake at reading recommended ACs in the 30s to 60s. Even in Season 4 that's way overkill for most fights.
In fairness, I am not recommending an AC in the 60's - simply stating numbers in that area are possible on certain builds at later levels.
At the end of the day, everyone should just build their character in the way that is fun for them. I particularly enjoy defensive builds, and I have often heard people quote phrases to the effect of "monk's are worthless". Monk is my favorite class, so for my first PFS character I set out with the goal of making him as invincible as possible to highlight their potential when folks see him played at cons and such. I had fun seeing how far I could push the envelope without crippling him in other areas. AC and CMD of 50+, plus crane wing and deflect arrows, plus saves of +22/+27/+24, plus evasion, plus SR, plus various immunities turned out to be pretty absolute for our PFS experience. I was extremely pleased with the results. His to hit is a mediocre +26 for his level though, so that's where his sacrifice came from.
As others have suggest, AC is not the be all/end all of defense though. Things like blur, displacement, concealment, stoneskin, mirror image, antilife shell, massive hp are also valid forms of defense in general. Picking some combination there in can be just as good as a high AC at times.
If you want to get into specifics Eric, send me a PM and I will help you set up a progression that is within your cleric's resources to make him more defensible.
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Yeah, I'll give you that one. You can make significant sacrifices in other areas to attain a very high AC. Of course, not every class is capable of getting it that high to begin with. Monks in general have a far easier time of running their AC up than some others if that's what they really want to focus on. I suppose ultimately it just boils down to play styles.
Couldn't agree more. Monk, duelist, and kensai magus combinations have the best AC potential. Monk pay for that potential at their low levels though. Compared to other equipment-based melees, playing a first to third level monk can be painful if not perfectly designed.
Playing what you enjoy is the bottom line. There is no right or wrong answer past that. I will be the first to say cleaving bad guy face open with a raging barbarian is extremely satisfying. On the reverse end, I can't help but crack a smile every time I think of a skinny monk running around in a bathrobe punching dragons and trolls in the eye.
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for cleric/oracle AC is easy to come buy
@ Level 3: AC 23 (+2 for shield of faith) = 25
@ Level 6: AC 26 (+3 shield of faith) = 29
items: +1 full plate +1 Heacy shield +1 Amulet of Nat Armor +1 Ioun stone
Tanking the Chaos Spawn or the large Hell hound with Armor in the plane of Hell = Priceless
(and that is with not sacrificing anything. Just a little cash)
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for cleric/oracle AC is easy to come buy
@ Level 3: AC 23 (+2 for shield of faith) = 25
@ Level 6: AC 26 (+3 shield of faith) = 29
items: +1 full plate +1 Heacy shield +1 Amulet of Nat Armor +1 Ioun stone
Tanking the Chaos Spawn or the large Hell hound with Armor in the plane of Hell = Priceless
(and that is with not sacrificing anything. Just a little cash)
I'd say it does sacrifice something... it takes a feat to get heavy armor.
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I don't have much to say about what your AC should be, but I will note what the monster's attack bonuses typically are.
For the first 10 CRs, the to hit bonus is typically CRx2 (a CR 5 critter usually has around +10 to hit).
After that, it's around CR+10.
Single attack monsters sometimes have higher, multi attack monsters have lower, but it's usually in that range (plus or minus 2).
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I'd say it does sacrifice something... it takes a feat to get heavy armor.for cleric/oracle AC is easy to come buy
@ Level 3: AC 23 (+2 for shield of faith) = 25
@ Level 6: AC 26 (+3 shield of faith) = 29
items: +1 full plate +1 Heacy shield +1 Amulet of Nat Armor +1 Ioun stone
Tanking the Chaos Spawn or the large Hell hound with Armor in the plane of Hell = Priceless
(and that is with not sacrificing anything. Just a little cash)
It also sacrifices quite a bit of movement, too. And unless your strength is high enough, you probably have some encumbrance issues.
Its difficult to make your character untouchable. If you are decent damage dealer in melee, then you will either have a decent touch and AC. Or have great AC and no touch. In the first case, the damage you take will be a balance of physical damage and special damage. In the latter case you are likely not to take much physical damage, but take a lot special damage. Knowing what will hurt your character the most will help you prioritize your opponents.
Its always my opinion to take out those that can make touch attacks first. They're usually easier to kill and easier to be killed by them, or mind controlled by them.
With all of that said, the best defense is having the highest initiative.
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I'd say it does sacrifice something... it takes a feat to get heavy armor.Skill at Arms (Ex): You gain proficiency in all martial weapons and heavy armor.
Sure... that answers the Oracle question... but clerics still have to take a feat, right? And, as another point, if you take that revelation, you cannot take another. So, still a cost. ;)
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Here is my planned Tower Shield Fighter/Monk Halfling at Level 7(atm, it has Gear of a Level 3 Fighter, which I am at right now):
Defense:
AC: 29+1 (10 + 2 DEX Mod (Max DEX 2) + 9 Armor (+1 O-Yoroi) + 5 Shield (+1 Darkwood Tower Shield) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 1 AC (Defender of the Society Trait)) + 1 Shield (Shield Focus))
Touch: 13+1 (10 + 2 DEX Mod (Max DEX 2) + 1 Size (Halfling))
Flat-Footed: 27+1 (10 + 9 Armor (+1 O-Yoroi) + 5 Shield (+1 Darkwood Tower Shield) + 1 Size (Halfling)
+ 1 AC (Defender of the Society Trait) + 1 Shield (Shield Focus))
Fighting Defensively: 35+1 ((10 + 2 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 9 Armor (+1 O-Yoroi) + 5 Shield (+1 Darkwood Tower Shield) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 1 AC (Defender of the Society Trait) + 2 Dodge (Fighting Defensively) + 1 Dodge (Acrobatics 3) + 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter) + 1 Shield (Shield Focus) + 1 Dodge (Crane Style))
Full Defense: 38+1 ((10 + 2 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 9 Armor (+1 O-Yoroi) + 5 Shield (+1 Darkwood Tower Shield) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 1 AC (Defender of the Society Trait) + 4 Dodge (Full Defense) + 2 Dodge (Acrobatics 3) + 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter) + 1 Shield (Shield Focus) + 1 Dodge (Crane Style))
Fighting Defensively (Touch): 19+1 ((10 + 2 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 2 Dodge (Fighting Defensively) + 1 Dodge (Acrobatics 3) + 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter) + 1 Dodge (Crane Style))
Full Defense (Touch): 22+1 ((10 + 2 DEX Mod (Max DEX 4) + 1 Size (Halfling) + 4 Dodge (Full Defense) + 2 Dodge (Acrobatics 3) + 2 Dodge (Cautious Fighter) + 1 Dodge (Crane Style))
Note: If opponent is Larger than Self, add +1 AC (Dodge) to total (Underfoot Trait).
Note: If using Fighting Defensively or Full Defense, Adjacent Allies receive AC (Luck) equivalent to 1/2 of AC (Dodge) gained from action. (Blundering Defense Feat)
Note: If using Full Defense, Single Adjacent Ally gains AC (Cover) equivalent to Shield bonus from Shield to all attacks (Covering Defense Feat)
Fighting Defensively: 6 AC (Dodge) / 2 = 3 AC (Luck) to Allies
Full Defense: 9 AC (Dodge) / 2 = 4 AC (Luck) to Adjacent Allies; + 6 AC (Cover) to single Adjacent Ally.
Immediate Action: 2 AC (Shield) to Adjacent Ally (Saving Shield Feat)
This is a characater strictly to be a walking shield in Full Defense all the time. Enter Full defense, +4 AC (Luck). Single ally gains +6 AC (Cover). Immediate Action, +2 AC (Shield). When standing next to the Damage Dealer, I can pump up to +12 AC (Luck, Cover, Shield).
I had a few people ask what is the point of me sitting there doing nothing. I kept tossing this towards the group's paladin who was taking on a set of juju zombies and everyone thanked me that I helped his character not die against them (he had bad rolls throughout the fight, even with smiting).
Moreover, if I have the Fame/Gold, I can get myself the Mantle of the Protector (in Champions of Purity companion booklet), which can give my Armor/Shield Bonus to another ally for 10 Minutes at the cost of losing all Armor/Shield Bonus on myself for 1 minute. So if we wait that first minute, then head into the last fight, I can give out 16 AC (Armor/Shield), as well as another 10 AC (Luck/Cover). Saving Shield does not stack with the Mantle, so it is 10 instead of 12. It does not mean that I can toss Saving Shield on the Secondary Attacker.
26 AC to an Adjacent Ally?
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I think that sometimes it's the support classes that should also really pump up their AC. Bards can get very solid AC (not as high as fighters admittedly) and cast mirror image - which benefits from high AC. And if they have to sacrifice damage - who cares? That's not what they're there for anyway. If my bard can buff and keep an NPC's attention - I've done my job.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Here are the AC levels of my group currently playing through Eyes of the Ten.
Oracle -- 15
Druid -- 35
Wizard -- 12
Magus -- 20
Sorcerer -- 25
Cavalier -- 39
Obviously, not everyone is meant to be in front, but we have all been targeted with attacks throughout the game (on part IV now).
I think what I've come to further realize that unless you're wanting AC to be "your shtick," or one of them, it's not worth breaking the bank to get. At our level, there is no real difference between 12 or 25. When the creatures have a +24 or higher to hit, it becomes fairly irrelevant. If you do want to be an AC monkey, though, just get the appropriate feats and gear. If you're headed that way, you should be fine as you level up.
An AC of 45 (which is what the cavalier has after a couple of tricks) seems to be "good enough" for EOTS thusfar, meaning he gets hit infrequently, and rarely enough that it's not really an issue. But this is at level 12+.
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I'm learning that AC is starting to become a secondary ability. I've fought things in PFS that have +21/+16/+11 at level 6. And those stats only get higher as you go on.
Realistically, at higher levels if something is targeting you it's going to hit you. What you can do back to it seems more important than AC.
I've been preaching that forever. Past about 6th level if something wants to hit you it probably will always hit at least once.
It's why I focus on preventing the target from ever getting to try and attack me. Either stay back and shoot at it or hit it with status effects stopping it from attacking (Dazing Assault, Thug Intimidate to frightened, nauseate touch spells, etc) and if it does ever swing on you make sure you have put spell storing -> Frigid Touch on your armor. That no save Staggered will definitely do more to save you then any amount of AC.
There is a reason my Musket Master often barely moves from the battlefield entrance.
"Why would I move and be closer to the enemy? They're all in range from here."
:)
I will say that having a decent AC is a little helpful even if the opponents keep hitting it - it means they can't afford to Power Attack/Piranha Strike as much.
-j
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I could swear there was an archetype for the cleric, but my search skills are failing me.The Mendevian Priest archetype for clerics (in Inner Sea Magic) has Heavy Armor Proficiency, but at the cost of only having one domain.
I'm a little late to the party here, but the Forgemaster archetype also grants Heavy Armor Proficiency to a Cleric at level 3. It is a dwarf archetype and at level 3 it grants Craft Magic Arms and Armor. In additional resources it says to replace Craft Magic Arms and Armor with Heavy Armor Proficiency. Downside is you only get one domain and it has to be artifice.
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At our level, there is no real difference between 12 or 25. When the creatures have a +24 or higher to hit, it becomes fairly irrelevant.
Walter and Jason bring up an excellent point. In the changeover from 3.5 to Pathfinder, AC became less important for PCs on the low end of the scale, due to the change in how Power Attack works. When facing a monster with, say, +29 to hit, +25 after PF Power Attack, it doesn't matter whether you've got an AC of 10 or 27; the monster is still hitting on a 2.
However, back in 3.5, it did matter, because Power Attack was variable. The feat's user chose how much to-hit to sacrifice. Thus, there was a difference between AC 10 and 27 in this example, because the monster could safely Power Attack for another -17 to hit, capped by the monster's BAB. Having a lower AC translated into taking more damage at higher levels when the to-hit-versus-AC spread got really wide.
What this means is that in Pathfinder, when it comes to AC at higher levels, either really invest in it or don't try at all.
Or look at miss chances.
-Matt
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I'm a little late to the party here, but the Forgemaster archetype also grants Heavy Armor Proficiency to a Cleric at level 3.As a player of dwarven clerics, I thank you for this information. :)
You give up channel energy though for other buff abilities. Not sure it is as appealing without channel but eh.
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I will say that my rogue Silbeg was saved yesterday due to armor class while playing #3-09: The Quest for Perfection—Part I: The Edge of Heaven.
The "Beast" Yeti, at sub-tier 4-5. Lucky for me I became his primary target. Round 1, he attacked twice, raging, with power attack. Rolled a 1 on one attack, smacked me for 20 on the second. Round 2, I moved in (again) with a 5' step (not wanting to risk failing an acrobatics check), and attacked on the defensive... getting lucky and getting a crit with one attack, missing with the other (Silbeg uses TWF and two Gladii).
The Yeti returns the favor, rolling well in excess of 30 with swing #1, and a 22 with swing #2... missing. This is good, because swing 1 dropped me, and if he had hit with a second attack, I would have experienced rend, and death.
I was lucky that I was able to get my AC up to 24: +1 Mithral Shirt (+5) DEX 17 (+3), Dodge (+1), Two Weapon Defense while fighting on the defensive (+2 Shield bonus), fighting defensively with >3 ranks of Acrobatics (+3). Saved my (character's) life... he was left at only -4
AC isn't the end all, but it can help.