Required AC in PFS

[Chernobyl]

lets see...my PFS fighter...level 16 fighter 2 barbarian
20 Dex +5
+5 Ghost Touch Righteous Full Plate...+14 armor
Shield Spell (cast from cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone) +4 Shield (wand into stone after fight)
Bottle of Yeti Fur +2 Natural for 24 hours
Ring of protection +2 (deflection)
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier +1 Luck AC
Dodge feat +1 dodge AC
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone +1 Insight to AC
thats a 40AC...so level +20? sounds good...

[Silbeg]

I probably swapped the order... the GM did call the first attack as vs AC 22... then the next hit.

My oops...

[CWheezy]

Jason Wu wrote:

I will say that having a decent AC is a little helpful even if the opponents keep hitting it - it means they can't afford to Power Attack/Piranha Strike as much.

-j

The idea with power attack is generally to Power attack at all times.

ALSO for pfs, some bad guys have power attack, but it is not written in tactics to power attack, Should I be doing it?

[Steven Huffstutler]

CWheezy wrote:

Jason Wu wrote:

I will say that having a decent AC is a little helpful even if the opponents keep hitting it - it means they can't afford to Power Attack/Piranha Strike as much.

-j

The idea with power attack is generally to Power attack at all times.

ALSO for pfs, some bad guys have power attack, but it is not written in tactics to power attack, Should I be doing it?

If the situation calls for it. If its against a high AC target and he cant get to anyone else, I usually stop power attacking.

[Robert Matthews 166]

Generally I've noticed that if a bad guy has power attack, it is figured into their statistics already and it's assumed they always do it. You should do the math beforehand to be sure though.

[Artanthos]

Eric Saxon wrote:

So, I'm wondering. How much should AC go up each level to stay competitive with the BBEG and stuff you'll meet? Is a 1 AC upgrade each level enough? More? Less? Anyone ever look at the monsters and how much more powerful they get each level?

I've found diminishing returns after CR +20.

[René P]

My Invulnerable Rager Ahote Takoda's AC is something of a joke in my lodge. With rage, power attack, reckless abandon and lunge going he gets his AC down to 3 (doesn't wear armor: Too stuffy, itchy and hot) When he recieves the benefits of an enlarge spell it goes to 1. My hope is to get it in the negatives, for S and giggles.

AC can be a money pit. When you look at the attack bonuses some creatures get vs thier CR it gets intimidating. I'd rather (at least in Ahote's case) put money into offense, mobility and resistances.

[Jason Wu]

Robert Matthews 166 wrote:

Generally I've noticed that if a bad guy has power attack, it is figured into their statistics already and it's assumed they always do it. You should do the math beforehand to be sure though.

Oh yes. Check the math. Otherwise you might be adding Power Attack on top of Power attack and that could get messy.

-j

[CWheezy]

Steven Huffstutler wrote:

If the situation calls for it. If its against a high AC target and he cant get to anyone else, I usually stop power attacking.

Generally if you are going to have a really hard time hitting them, you should be power attacking even more!

gming spoilers

Spoiler:

Keep of the Huscarl king is one, pretty sure all bad guys do NOT have it factored in.

The Cyphermage dilemma is another, for the thugs

Anyway from now on I will probably do it if I can tell it isn't factored in, thanks guys!

[BiosTheo]

I would say it depends, like many previous statements, on two things: Role and Need.

If your the Tank your probably going to want some AC to speak of so everything is just smashing into you. If you have little to no AC and a group of, lets say, twenty low level goblins swarm your high level tank and no one is around to help you (worst case scenario) they can all hit you with ease and quickly drop that HP to negative CON before you have finish killing them. If your a Wizard, your AC is almost guaranteed garbage compared to the nearest Fighter. Try not to get hit and always have a back up plan (Vanish, Invisibility, Fly)

Now this is where Need comes into play. On my previous comment, if you don't get regularly swarmed by lots of little things having low AC and a lot of HP is not necessarily a bad thing. However, as previously stated the inverse is also true. Now heres the kicker, if your a front line fighter with a low HD, say D8 (Magus), then high AC is a must. With roles like a Barbarian you can get away, rather easily, with having low to no AC because your HD is a d12 (lucky bastard).

Thats where the HP vs AC tank comes into argument:

So Big Bad comes in all hunky dory and the Barbarian waltzs up to him with the Magus and they start smashing him. The Magus has, lets say, God Like AC (Its 101929829 just go with it) and the Barbarian has an AC of 2. It only takes the Big Bad a few rounds to notice that his attacks ain't even touching the Magus and he needs to, instead, hit the Barbarian that he notices, rather vigorously, that every time he swings he sinks his sword into the Barbarian with a satisfying crunch. Now, what if the Barbarian wasn't there, and there was instead a Wizard standing behind the Magus that was being really annoying. I think Big Bad would try to axe the Wizard that he can hit 75% of the time as opposed to the Magus which he hits 5% of the time. Effectively, against smart opponents HP tanks can be more useful for drawing aggro away from the people that can't take the hits. However, AC tanks are better at just not dying.

As for reasonable amounts of AC, the actual original reason for this thread: It is so situational to the point that I'm not even sure it can be argued. It always depends on whats being thrown at you, whats your situation as far as money, and what your party needs. In high risk high reward campaigns, of which I was part of one, my Magus at level 9 could hit 34 AC fairly comfortably and get hit only 20% of the time (with a CMD of 41 in case anyones wondering).

At level 20 I could easily see buffing myself to 42 (If I was a Kensai that would be 47)

Calculations:

DEX of 30 (starting 20, +4 from levels +6 from item) - +10 to AC
Haramaki of +5 - +6 to AC
Amulet of Natural Armor + 5
Spell Shield (+4)
Dodge (+1)
Combat Expertise (+4)
And if I had to Fighting Defensively +2

Hope that example helps a little. As you can see from level 9 to 20 the transition doesn't increase overly much. I think that AC has a weird plateau around levels 9 - 13 where it doesn't increase overly much.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Of note as well - the higher your AC the more benefit that you get from even higher AC. Ignoring that you can get hurt a lot of ways that ignore AC (yay spellcasting) here's the math.

If the to hit you're up against is +20 and your AC is 26 you have a 75% chance of being hit. If you raise your AC one point up to 27 it drops to a 70% chance, or a 6.7778% reduction in damage taken.

Against that same +20 to hit if your AC is 36 you have 25% chance of being hit. If you raise your AC one point up to 37 it drops to a 20% chance, and in this case a 20% reduction in damage taken.

This leads to once again the conclusion that if you're buying much AC you should go ahead and buy a lot. But on the other hand, it's hardly worth only magicing your armor for AC at higher levels. (neet ring of deflection/amulet of nat armor/maybe a shield/feats etc.)

Yay math.

[Charon's Little Helper]

BiosTheo wrote:

So Big Bad comes in all hunky dory and the Barbarian waltzs up to him with the Magus and they start smashing him. The Magus has, lets say, God Like AC (Its 101929829 just go with it) and the Barbarian has an AC of 2. It only takes the Big Bad a few rounds to notice that his attacks ain't even touching the Magus and he needs to, instead, hit the Barbarian that he notices, rather vigorously, that every time he swings he sinks his sword into the Barbarian with a satisfying crunch. Now, what if the Barbarian wasn't there, and there was instead a Wizard standing behind the Magus that was being really annoying. I think Big Bad would try to axe the Wizard that he can hit 75% of the time as opposed to the Magus which he hits 5% of the time. Effectively, against smart opponents HP tanks can be more useful for drawing aggro away from the people that can't take the hits....

I kind of disagree there - that seems like the GM ignoring the abstractness of the system. When you miss someone based upon their armor's AC - you're likely connecting, your blows are just bouncing off of their armor.

When you hit someone and they still have tons of HP - your sword isn't stabbing them in the spleen over and over again. Instead you're having a series of near misses - perhaps giving them a minor cut or two as you wear them down.

Therefore - the BBEG won't see all that much difference between swinging at the Magus or the Barbarian in your scenario.

[BigNorseWolf]

The badguy knows he's missing the magus, either because of magic, a parry, or the swords sliding off his armor.

The badguy knows he's putting his sword into the barbarians kidney.

He can also see that the barbarian is of the opinion that the gods saw fit to give him a spare.

[Jiggy]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

When you hit someone and they still have tons of HP - your sword isn't stabbing them in the spleen over and over again. Instead you're having a series of near misses - perhaps giving them a minor cut or two as you wear them down.

Although I've heard that some games define hit points in that fashion, it's not the case in Pathfinder:

Core Rulebook, Getting Started, Hit Points wrote:

Hit points are an abstraction signifying how robust and healthy a creature is at the current moment. .... Wounds subtract hit points

Core Rulebook, Combat, Injury and Death, Loss of Hit Points wrote:

What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

Nothing in there about representing dodges or near misses. "Wounds", not near misses, subtract hit points. Hit points represent turning "a serious blow into a less serious one", not avoiding getting hit at all.

[Akerlof]

Robert Matthews 166 wrote:

Generally I've noticed that if a bad guy has power attack, it is figured into their statistics already and it's assumed they always do it. You should do the math beforehand to be sure though.

This is applicable to the "PFS is too hard/easy" threads: Choosing whether or not to Power Attack when it's available but not a specified tactic is one of the ways a judge can adjust the difficulty of the scenario. Use it as a tool, use PA to knock bigger chunks out of the barbarian who has basically solo'd every encounter so far. Don't use it when you have 3 bards and a witch at your table.

[xobmaps]

Anyone have experience with Eidolons as tanks? It seems like they should be able to keep pace with the high AC types (mid 20s lvl 1, low 60s lvl 20 when buffed) and with endurance/die hard and a cowardly summoner have the total HP for both to work with. I'm just not so sure if the touch and CMD would be enough...

[BigNorseWolf]

xobmaps wrote:

Anyone have experience with Eidolons as tanks? It seems like they should be able to keep pace with the high AC types (mid 20s lvl 1, low 60s lvl 20 when buffed) and with endurance/die hard and a cowardly summoner have the total HP for both to work with. I'm just not so sure if the touch and CMD would be enough...

In a home game at least they can do just fine in this role. They effectively have their +the summoners HP, and smart summoners will have con= if not greater than their charisma.

Touch is never high enough. If something targets touch just resign yourself to getting hit. 4 legs can make up for a slightly lower cmd.

[Luthril]

Here is a thought experiment...

52 AC at level 12... what can hit him? I know the rest of the character is a joke, but take the P$&^ Challenge... What can hit him?

Super AC:

AC test
Halfling Fighter (Armor Master) 12
LG Small Humanoid (halfling)
Init +6; Senses Perception +3
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 52, touch 29, flat-footed 41 (+15 armor, +9 shield, +6 Dex, +1 size, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +5 dodge)
hp 112 (12d10+36)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +6; +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities fortification 25%; DR 2/—
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +11/+6/+1 (1d3+2/x2) and
Masterwork Sickle +16/+11/+6 (1d4+2/x2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 9
Base Atk +12; CMB +13 (+17 Tripping); CMD 42 (44 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise +/-4, Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round), Dodge, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Shield Specialization (Heavy Shield) (1/day), Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Mobility, Shield Focus, Shield Specialization (Heavy Shield), Underfoot, Weapon Finesse
Traits Captain's Blade (Acrobatics), Defender of the Society
Skills Acrobatics +24 (+20 jump, +28 to move past opponents without provoking attacks of opportunity, as long as they're larger than you), Climb +20, Fly +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +3, Stealth +10, Survival +14; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Climb, +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Halfling
SQ armored defense, deflective shield +3, fearless, fortification (light fortification)
Combat Gear: Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day); Other Gear +5 Mithral Full plate, +5 Mithral Heavy steel shield, Masterwork Sickle, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +2, 150 GP

This is using combat expertise.

[Artanthos]

Eric Saxon wrote:

My problem with all this is that having a reasonably good AC doesn't seem to matter at any level. Why even wear armor at lvl. 3 if you are a priest if everything can get through your AC at every level. So is it just a waste of gp to buy AC upgrades if you are anything other than a monk or a fighter with full plate + shield?

Its appears to be the case.

Not even close.

I've seen barbarians with the huge DPR and no armor go down very quickly when they kill the first mook and everything else focus fires on them.

It is times like this where my kensai really shines. He has a baseline AC of 27 at 7th level, but quickly moves into the mid 30's if necessary. At that level, even the big guys can have a difficult time hitting.

[Artanthos]

Luthril wrote:

Here is a thought experiment...

52 AC at level 12... what can hit him? I know the rest of the character is a joke, but take the P$&^ Challenge... What can hit him?

** spoiler omitted **

This is using combat expertise.

Any magus worth his salt

Or Lantern Archons
Or Shadows.....

*I'm not trying to start a class war or be a kiljoy. I love defense builds. I just could not resist.

[Artanthos]

xobmaps wrote:

Anyone have experience with Eidolons as tanks? It seems like they should be able to keep pace with the high AC types (mid 20s lvl 1, low 60s lvl 20 when buffed) and with endurance/die hard and a cowardly summoner have the total HP for both to work with. I'm just not so sure if the touch and CMD would be enough...

CMD is not an issue, but touch kills eidolons.

AC wise, they are decent but a fighter or paladin is better.

My eidolon has a base AC of 18 at level four. I buff with mage armor as soon as we get near anything remotely dangerous.

Barkskin can give another +2, for a total running AC of 24.

I have Shield and Protection from Evil available if we have time to prebuff, but do not usually have a chance to cast.

Haste gives another +1. Fights should not last long enough for +1 AC to matter with Haste up.

[thistledown]

One of my regular players has designed a build entirely about giving AC to people next to him. I think he's up to +19 now. On top of whatever you have.

[Darius Silverbolt]

Eric Saxon wrote:

So, I'm wondering. How much should AC go up each level to stay competitive with the BBEG and stuff you'll meet? Is a 1 AC upgrade each level enough? More? Less? Anyone ever look at the monsters and how much more powerful they get each level?

I have a level 14 Wizard with an 11 AC ;-)

[SCPRedMage]

Darius Silverbolt wrote:

I have a level 14 Wizard with an 11 AC ;-)

Wow, that high? What a munchkin... :P

[Small Ears No Die]

thistledown wrote:

One of my regular players has designed a build entirely about giving AC to people next to him. I think he's up to +19 now. On top of whatever you have.

yep, 19... 21 if i spend that move action

[Kurthnaga]

Small Ears No Die wrote:

thistledown wrote:

One of my regular players has designed a build entirely about giving AC to people next to him. I think he's up to +19 now. On top of whatever you have.

yep, 19... 21 if i spend that move action

I'm pretty sure I know which character this is. If I remember correctly you were in

Spoiler:

Words of the Ancients

with one of my friends and he was impressed with your ability to save people multiple times and tank an army later into the scenario. We tried to theorycraft it up later but could not figure out how you did it. :P

[Small Ears No Die]

Kurthnaga wrote:

Small Ears No Die wrote:

thistledown wrote:

One of my regular players has designed a build entirely about giving AC to people next to him. I think he's up to +19 now. On top of whatever you have.

yep, 19... 21 if i spend that move action

I'm pretty sure I know which character this is. If I remember correctly you were in

** spoiler omitted **
with one of my friends and he was impressed with your ability to save people multiple times and tank an army later into the scenario. We tried to theorycraft it up later but could not figure out how you did it. :P

thanks :)

Bodyguard feat, halfling trait adopted, +5 benevolent breastplate, and +1 from bodyguard archtype

my mount has same set up (barding instead of breastplate, additional traits feat to get the trait), except for the +1 from archetype

i aid for 10, mount aids for 9.

if i use a move action to activate my battle herald ability i can make us aid for 1 more each

[theshoveller]

Kurthnaga wrote:

Small Ears No Die wrote:

thistledown wrote:

One of my regular players has designed a build entirely about giving AC to people next to him. I think he's up to +19 now. On top of whatever you have.

yep, 19... 21 if i spend that move action

I'm pretty sure I know which character this is. If I remember correctly you were in

** spoiler omitted **
with one of my friends and he was impressed with your ability to save people multiple times and tank an army later into the scenario. We tried to theorycraft it up later but could not figure out how you did it. :P

I'm interested to know too. I'm taking a fighter down that route...

[Small Ears No Die]

theshoveller wrote:

Kurthnaga wrote:

Small Ears No Die wrote:

thistledown wrote:

One of my regular players has designed a build entirely about giving AC to people next to him. I think he's up to +19 now. On top of whatever you have.

yep, 19... 21 if i spend that move action

I'm pretty sure I know which character this is. If I remember correctly you were in

** spoiler omitted **
with one of my friends and he was impressed with your ability to save people multiple times and tank an army later into the scenario. We tried to theorycraft it up later but could not figure out how you did it. :P

I'm interested to know too. I'm taking a fighter down that route...

i recommend getting an animal companion, to double your output

benevolent armor ability is amazing (and cheap)

halfing trait helpful (aid another for +4 instead of 2) helps, use adopted to pick it up if you have to

and remember anyone can get an animal companion with 2 feats now

[Eric Saxon]

Its alive! Its Alive! ITS ALIVE!

Wow, my thread has been resurrected from May. Glad people are still getting a kick out of it. :D

[evilaustintom]

Small Ears No Die wrote:

...and remember anyone can get an animal companion with 2 feats now

How so? I know familiars can be gained with Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage...but off the top of my head, I'm unaware of something similar for animal companions.

[DrSwordopolis]

evilaustintom wrote:

How so? I know familiars can be gained with Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage...but off the top of my head, I'm unaware of something similar for animal companions.

There's a new feat in Faiths and Philosophies; it has a prereq (also in F&P) but it gives anyone an animal companion at effective druid level of player level - 3. You're limited to a subset of the normal animal companion list, though.

[Tempest_Knight]

I always figure for three AC sets...

Frontline = 20+(Lv*1.5)
Dual Role = 15+(Lv*1.5)
Backline = Have other options but try for 10+Lv

[FLite]

Small Ears No Die wrote:

Kurthnaga wrote:

Small Ears No Die wrote:

thistledown wrote:

One of my regular players has designed a build entirely about giving AC to people next to him. I think he's up to +19 now. On top of whatever you have.

yep, 19... 21 if i spend that move action

I'm pretty sure I know which character this is. If I remember correctly you were in

** spoiler omitted **
with one of my friends and he was impressed with your ability to save people multiple times and tank an army later into the scenario. We tried to theorycraft it up later but could not figure out how you did it. :P

thanks :)

Bodyguard feat, halfling trait adopted, +5 benevolent breastplate, and +1 from bodyguard archtype

my mount has same set up (barding instead of breastplate, additional traits feat to get the trait), except for the +1 from archetype

i aid for 10, mount aids for 9.

if i use a move action to activate my battle herald ability i can make us aid for 1 more each

Except those are the same bonuses from the same source, so unless it explicitly says it stacks, you give everyone 10.

[Name Violation]

aid another calls out that it stacks

[Name Violation]

Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack

[VanceMadrox]

I went through Eyes of the Ten with a base AC of 33 and rarely got hit.

For good AC I generally use Level +20.

[FanaticRat]

And my oracle can't even feasibly break 16 ac at level 9...

[Yiroep]

FanaticRat wrote:

And my oracle can't even feasibly break 16 ac at level 9...

Pft. My level 15 life oracle (or at least WILL be 15 after I GM the special) will have 14 AC. His level will be higher than his AC. And he does just fine.

[Magda Luckbender]

My level 9 PFS reach cleric only has AC20. I can temporarily buff it up to AC 25, but rarely bother. Everything at level pretty much auto-hits. It hasn't been a problem. Instead, this PC took Toughness and got Invulnerable DR5/Magic armor, a +2 CON belt, & the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (to cancel critical hits). That's 93 HP at level 9. It's been sufficient.

Of course, this PC is a second-rank fighter, and doesn't get pounded on like a front-liner.

[Red-Assassin]

My Cleric is level 11, ac is 11. Almost died a couple times but ac wasn't the cause of it. I also have a 7th level Barbarian with an AC of 14...

[Mergy]

My favourite AC is a potion of blur combined with a casting of stoneskin. That's speaking as a level 8 Reckless Abandon barbarian though. The only reason his armour is magical is so I could put light fortification on it.

[FanaticRat]

Well, my Oracle hasn't had any problems either (save for the time he got the crap beat out of him by a monk before he even got a chance to move) but from all the horror stories I've heard and seen, I guess I'm just paranoid.

I recently picked up a belt of CON for him (taking me from a measly 57 HP to a measly 66 HP) and picked up some Mistmail for the concealment, but I'm unsure if that causes enemies to have concealment from my own attacks. Shield of Faith and False Life help, I guess.

[kinevon]

FanaticRat wrote:

Well, my Oracle hasn't had any problems either (save for the time he got the crap beat out of him by a monk before he even got a chance to move) but from all the horror stories I've heard and seen, I guess I'm just paranoid.

I recently picked up a belt of CON for him (taking me from a measly 57 HP to a measly 66 HP) and picked up some Mistmail for the concealment, but I'm unsure if that causes enemies to have concealment from my own attacks. Shield of Faith and False Life help, I guess.

Mistmail grants the user 20% concealment, because you are in a square of fog. It does not grant anyone else concealment from you, since you are not looking into or through a square of fog.

Note, however, that since it is only concealment, not total concealment, your opponents can still get and take AoOs on you, just with a 20% miss chance.

We played that wrong, recently, in a scenario I was in. I only checked it later.

[FanaticRat]

I see. Well that's somewhat better. Are there any other potential magic items you would suggest? I was thinking of picking up some scrolls of mirror image as well.

[Kyle Baird]

I prefer a combination of displacement and mirror image.

[Hayato Ken]

Kyle Baird wrote:

I prefer a combination of displacement and mirror image.

Add in the moonlight stalker feat chain and you have a real strong defense, as well pushing your attack.

That new trait which gives low-light vision makes this even more attractive, since one could now have moonlight stalking humans and halflings^^

[Mergy]

Which trait gives low-light vision? I was looking at Moonlight Stalker but being a human is usually too attractive to give up.

[Yiroep]

Benjamin Falk wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

I prefer a combination of displacement and mirror image.

Add in the moonlight stalker feat chain and you have a real strong defense, as well pushing your attack.

That new trait which gives low-light vision makes this even more attractive, since one could now have moonlight stalking humans and halflings^^

Careful with that. It can be easily argued that the Displacement spell doesn't actually give you concealment, since it works "like" concealment.

Blur, on the other hand, is blatantly actual concealment. So a minor cloak of displacement still works.

Edit: Actually double checking cloak of displacement, it works "similar to" Blur. Although given the new SLA rules....who knows.