"Love hmm... How can I benefit from this?"
Maybe he hit his head and forgot all of his evilness that he was supposed to be doing, and instead of killing everyone on the planet, he makes it his job to protect everyone.
Until his brother shows up and kidnaps his son, then sh*t gets real.
Of course, the rules do cover an anti-paladin rise from disgrace.
A antipaladin who ceases to be chaotic evil, who willfully commits an good act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all antipaladin spells and class features (including the fiendish boon, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). He may not progress any further in levels as an antipaladin. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations (see the atonement spell), as appropriate.
So, if we take the rules seriously, any change in alignment from chaotic evil, the willful commission of a good act, or a violation of the code of conduct.
Of course, anti-paladins are more than a bit like Pirates from "Pirates of Caribbean," so I assume the code of conduct is more like guidelines.
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If I break the rule of conduct does that make me chaotic and make it so I'm therefor not breaking the code of conduct which makes me lawful which makes me break the code of conduct which makes me chaotic which makes me...
What would make an anti-paladin fall? A banana peel! Grease! Create Pit!
But seriously I'd agree that any kind / good act that one would go out of their way to do. Kid breaks their leg, instead of not doing anything or killing the towns only physician he carries the kid to the doctor to get help. BAM! Fallen (or risen) anti-paladin.
What would make an anti-paladin fall? A banana peel! Grease! Create Pit!
But seriously I'd agree that any kind / good act that one would go out of their way to do. Kid breaks their leg, instead of not doing anything or killing the towns only physician he carries the kid to the doctor to get help. BAM! Fallen (or risen) anti-paladin.
i'd agree here unless he has a specific evil plan in mind involving this that he's informed me of either either during the game in an aside or outside the game (but then that's just me).
Vader lost all cool points at the point of his redemption.May you burn in the fiery pits of Mustafar ;)Ok, thread de-rail moment here... What makes a bad guy, well bad... Is that he is good at it. Bad guys who have a change of heart/ are tortured by some tragic past event that corrupts them to evil are tragic... Not bad... If you feel sorry for the bad guy, then he is doing it wrong! Lets take a cross- genre trip for a sec...
What makes the Joker a threat? Unrepentant, irredeemable evil. Someone who believes in evil because , hey, why not... No mercy, no rhyme or reason, just plain bad. That's what makes him scary. Palpating and Tarkin were bad... I mean BAD! Vader was bad too until you find out that he wasn't... At that point, everything he did for the cause of evil was not only void, but was made to be a senseless tragedy. Now you have a bad guy that people feel bad for... That's not a good bad guy, that's just plain vanilla bad. It's like taking the teeth out of a shark and teaching him to eat sea weed. You feel sorry for him. Not piss-your-pants scared like you should be of a shark.
Bad guys that are bad just because they're bad are 90% of the time poorly written characters.
The Joker's evil because he's nuckin' futs and gets his jollies from other's suffering. He's probably the one kind of example of "Evil just because" that actually works without making the character boring. If you can't relate in the slightest to the bad guy's goals, he's just there to be an obstacle, he's not really a character.
Look at Rita Repulsa (Power Rangers) whose goal is to be evil just because they're evil vs someone who actually has a specific goal in mind, however sympathetic it may be. The Well Intentioned Extremist is a well-worn archetype but that's because it has so much potential for character moments and depth instead of "Hey I'm a dick. Why? Because I'm evil. Why am I evil? Because I'm a dick. Wait come back I'm interesting I swear!"
As for the person who said "An Antipaladin falls if he commits a good act, even with the intention of sowing greater evil later", the Code disagrees with you.
An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends.
Does that mean the anti-paladin code is better written than the paladin code because it actually allows them to perform deeds for the greater good(well... evil)? It makes them extra hard to fall because they can just continually make excuses as to their intention. I actually think they sound fun to play depending on the GM and game.
As to evil archetypes, evil comes in many shapes and forms. A man who chooses to be a savage and give into bloodlust could be chaotic evil. A man who wants to shatter the government only to spread discord or because he explicitly hates it could easily be chaotic evil(or chaotic good even, a lot of variables), a character who just likes to mess around and work for money could be CE. A guy who goes out of his way to be a jerk and break the law publically might be CE, but he probably has a short life span...
My favorite is of course good intentions gone wrong and someone who feels betrayed choosing to go too far.
Love of anyone but himself will lead to him falling. Putting anyone's needs ahead of his own is a good act something only a non-evil person would do.
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Love of anyone but himself will lead to him falling. Putting anyone's needs ahead of his own is a good act something only a non-evil person would do.
Does that mean a Philter of love is the ultimate weapon against evil?
Evil interesting because it can do good acts and not be good.
Good is at a disadvantage; it must never be evil.
A villain could masquerade as a good guy. He could donate money to charity, adopt orphans, and other "good acts."
A hero can't pretend to be evil all that well. He can't murder in cold blood. He can't burn down a senior citizen's house. He can't dropkick babies.
Oh, the pain of being a hero.
Love of anyone but himself will lead to him falling. Putting anyone's needs ahead of his own is a good act something only a non-evil person would do.Does that mean a Philter of love is the ultimate weapon against evil?
No because that is forcing him through magic to act like he love someone.
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Evil interesting because it can do good acts and not be good.
Good is at a disadvantage; it must never be evil.
A villain could masquerade as a good guy. He could donate money to charity, adopt orphans, and other "good acts."
A hero can't pretend to be evil all that well. He can't murder in cold blood. He can't burn down a senior citizen's house. He can't dropkick babies.
Oh, the pain of being a hero.
Dropkicking babies is like ultimate instant atonement. Man, that's evil.
No because that is forcing him through magic to act like he love someone.Love of anyone but himself will lead to him falling. Putting anyone's needs ahead of his own is a good act something only a non-evil person would do.Does that mean a Philter of love is the ultimate weapon against evil?
Oh, well I was making a joke really. To be completely serious I should note that even if you love someone you can live to completely take advantage of it or twist it into a dark desire and serve pleasure, even if it means a bit of loyalty you get so much out of it and its all willing except for what you wish not to be. You can even choose not to be loyal and still love someone. I suppose its about how you define love here...
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In all seriousness, any anti-paladin worth remembering *is* a tragic character, in some way...or he's just a speedbump. He might be a brick wall sized speedbump, but that's what he is.
If he's a tragic character...what happened? What broke him in the first place? That will help you to see what his weakness is.
Then he might give a damn...and...er...rise.
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Oh, well I was making a joke really. To be completely serious I should note that even if you love someone you can live to completely take advantage of it or twist it into a dark desire and serve pleasure, even if it means a bit of loyalty you get so much out of it and its all willing except for what you wish not to be. You can even choose not to be loyal and still love someone. I suppose its about how you define love here...No because that is forcing him through magic to act like he love someone.Love of anyone but himself will lead to him falling. Putting anyone's needs ahead of his own is a good act something only a non-evil person would do.Does that mean a Philter of love is the ultimate weapon against evil?
"I love you and I'm going to control every aspect of your life so that this can never change, even if it means I have to kill you. You got a problem with that?"
Er, rise, I guess.
Thinking about paladins got me thinking about their evil counterparts. So, what would cause an anti-paladin to fall? Would it be called rising? Do they even fall/rise?
This is not intended for serious debate, just to see what humorous reasons people come up with for anti-paladins falling/rising.
Giving lollipops to the orphans without doing something horrible - poisoning the pops, burning the orphanage down in the dead of night, simply barricading all the doors and wading in with meat hook and machete in hand - is also a good way.
Does he have to be tragic to be memorable. What if he's intelligent and cunning and sets up traps and goes for low blows all through the adventure. He has his own personal reasons, but your too busy fighting to survive to know them. The most you see out of him is a grin from across an obstacle and a bit of gloating here and there as he's one step ahead of you the entire time. Every time you see him the GM does a calling card laugh and you know something terrible is about to happen. The only time he ever speaks civilly is when he knows you can't do a thing to stop him. He's not a speed bump, he's a wall with personality and flair. He has charisma to beguile and talk his way through anything.
Lots of kinds of BBEGs out there.
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Does he have to be tragic to be memorable. What if he's intelligent and cunning and sets up traps and goes for low blows all through the adventure. He has his own personal reasons, but your too busy fighting to survive to know them. The most you see out of him is a grin from across an obstacle and a bit of gloating here and there as he's one step ahead of you the entire time. Every time you see him the GM does a calling card laugh and you know something terrible is about to happen. The only time he ever speaks civilly is when he knows you can't do a thing to stop him. He's not a speed bump, he's a wall with personality and flair. He has charisma to beguile and talk his way through anything.
Lots of kinds of BBEGs out there.
Yes, he's necessarily tragic...people aren't that inimical at birth...unless the tragedy precedes him. This doesn't mean you have to feel sorry for him...it just means that something caused the disconnect...for some reason, he hates people...or is simply a total sociopath...something. There was a cause, somewhere...and it will be tied to his motivations.
Now...don't get the idea that I'm saying this has to be an emo thing.
Next thing you know your going to tell me you can't be evil because its fun or because the benefits are nice. Seriously, have you seen the anti-paladin health plan? Unholy resilience man. The better I can get people to like me the better I am at dodging fireballs! Plague bringer is delicious icing on the cake. Living bioweapon and look good while doing it.
I feel like we've gone off topic though.
Edit: Join the dark side. We have good health coverage.
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Next thing you know your going to tell me you can't be evil because its fun or because the benefits are nice. Seriously, have you seen the anti-paladin health plan? Unholy resilience man. The better I can get people to like me the better I am at dodging fireballs! Plague bringer is delicious icing on the cake. Living bioweapon and look good while doing it.
I feel like we've gone off topic though.
Yeah. Could be. :p
Back on topic...that sort of character has no depth...can't ...umm...rise...and is pointless to consider. No anti-paladin who has no weakness ever will. That's sort of a [/Thread] kind of thing. If you understand his motivations...and the genesis of his motivations...that's where it lies. Without that, he'd gladly sacrifice anything, at any time.
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My GM raised my anti-paladin because I didn't attend the annual orphanage barbecue and marshmallow roast. Was it fair of him to do so?
Kinda unrelated, but could a Paladin grab Ability Focus to increase the DC of his Touch of Corruption?
I don't see why we can't have Anti-Paladins falling in love with feminine demons or other anti-paladins.
Nothing beats making everyone's day miserable like doing it with your evil-as-you lady. "Hey, after we are done messing up Townsville, wanna do unspeakable things on the peasant's corpses?" I mean, they could be acting in the self-interest of BOTH of them ("You and me vs the world, baby!"
I'd be more afraid of them than the single Anti-Paladin, and I'm pretty sure that's a win for Evil...
Nightmare fuel... Fuuu, I'll get the brain bleach and do Lawful Good things to make up for it.
My GM raised my anti-paladin because I didn't attend the annual orphanage barbecue and marshmallow roast. Was it fair of him to do so?
Is this one of those Rise or Rise scenarios?! Then no.
"I love you and I'm going to control every aspect of your life so that this can never change, even if it means I have to kill you. You got a problem with that?"Oh, well I was making a joke really. To be completely serious I should note that even if you love someone you can live to completely take advantage of it or twist it into a dark desire and serve pleasure, even if it means a bit of loyalty you get so much out of it and its all willing except for what you wish not to be. You can even choose not to be loyal and still love someone. I suppose its about how you define love here...No because that is forcing him through magic to act like he love someone.Love of anyone but himself will lead to him falling. Putting anyone's needs ahead of his own is a good act something only a non-evil person would do.Does that mean a Philter of love is the ultimate weapon against evil?
Not sound like girl, but that is not love. Love is putting someone else's needs before your own. Doing what is best for them even if hurts you . What you described is a evil twisted parity of love.
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Not sound like girl, but that is not love. Love is putting someone else's needs before your own. Doing what is best for them even if hurts you . What you described is a evil twisted parity of love."I love you and I'm going to control every aspect of your life so that this can never change, even if it means I have to kill you. You got a problem with that?"Oh, well I was making a joke really. To be completely serious I should note that even if you love someone you can live to completely take advantage of it or twist it into a dark desire and serve pleasure, even if it means a bit of loyalty you get so much out of it and its all willing except for what you wish not to be. You can even choose not to be loyal and still love someone. I suppose its about how you define love here...No because that is forcing him through magic to act like he love someone.Love of anyone but himself will lead to him falling. Putting anyone's needs ahead of his own is a good act something only a non-evil person would do.Does that mean a Philter of love is the ultimate weapon against evil?
Ummm...yeah...and we're discussing anti-paladins? You got that, right?
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Discussions like this are why I still hold to my old 2e ethic of 'no antipaladins.'
They just don't make much sense.
Acting lawful good all the time doesn't result in a being who is fundementally broken on numerous levels. Having to /always/ be a paragon of chaotic evil is an exercise in madness and futility.
An antipaladin needs to be an engine of chaos and evil like a paladin should be one for law and good. Not just 'sort of meeting the requirements,' thats just plain old CE or LG.
He's a living personification of the concept. Thats why he gets the aura and is essentially a walking native outsider.
This sort of stuff got raised with Dragon magazine and its poorly though out 'Paladins of Every Alignment' thing. The chaotic evil paladin was required to be evil at every possible moment, to a level of self-parody.
I always pictured the guy riding into town, punching his horse, murdering someone at random, going into a restaurant, ordering raw chicks to eat, eating them with absolutely no recognition of table manners, using the bathroom and not washing his hands (since he's evil), skipping out on the bill and then stealing a new horse which he rode to someone's house, killed the occupants and then squatted there.
By his very existance, an antipaladin is disruptive, an agent of chaos and destruction. He's sort of incapable of functioning alongside normal society and floats on the edges as a sort of engine of chaos and destruction, this is well and good for a higher level sort, but for low level guys? That first level antipaladin? He's going to be locked up or hung. And if you can't make it past first level, where do the higher ones come from?
And I'm surprised no one's raised the monkey in the room yet.
Why would chaotic evil insist its champion have a /code/?
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Discussions like this are why I still hold to my old 2e ethic of 'no antipaladins.'
They just don't make much sense.
Acting lawful good all the time doesn't result in a being who is fundementally broken on numerous levels. Having to /always/ be a paragon of chaotic evil is an exercise in madness and futility.
An antipaladin needs to be an engine of chaos and evil like a paladin should be one for law and good. Not just 'sort of meeting the requirements,' thats just plain old CE or LG.
He's a living personification of the concept. Thats why he gets the aura and is essentially a walking native outsider.
This sort of stuff got raised with Dragon magazine and its poorly though out 'Paladins of Every Alignment' thing. The chaotic evil paladin was required to be evil at every possible moment, to a level of self-parody.
I always pictured the guy riding into town, punching his horse, murdering someone at random, going into a restaurant, ordering raw chicks to eat, eating them with absolutely no recognition of table manners, using the bathroom and not washing his hands (since he's evil), skipping out on the bill and then stealing a new horse which he rode to someone's house, killed the occupants and then squatted there.
By his very existance, an antipaladin is disruptive, an agent of chaos and destruction. He's sort of incapable of functioning alongside normal society and floats on the edges as a sort of engine of chaos and destruction, this is well and good for a higher level sort, but for low level guys? That first level antipaladin? He's going to be locked up or hung. And if you can't make it past first level, where do the higher ones come from?
And I'm surprised no one's raised the monkey in the room yet.
Why would chaotic evil insist its champion have a /code/?
You see, I disagree with the premise you've laid out on behavior, to begin with...they don't have to be randomly evil. They are the mighty lords, and that's how they live. In the very process of living like that, they are abusive and destructive to the order of live in the people around them.
By necessity, they are powerful. This is one reason I believe they work better as a prestige class...1st and 2nd level antipaladins? Who do they bully? How many times do they clash heads with the local War5 sheriff before it comes to life and death? It's an incredibly rare circumstance that allows an antipaladin to rise from 1st to 6th level...maybe he has a patron, someone as sick and scheming as he is...but that's all I can figure, in a non-evil society.
This is actually why I was utterly disappointed when they turned Hellknights from a 15 level prestige class into a 10 level prestige class. The same thing would be an excellent anti-paladin PrC, 15 levels - once you're in, you're in to the end.
A 15 level PrC, more than any other PrC, defines a PC/NPC in a way that nothing else does.
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You see, I disagree with the premise you've laid out on behavior, to begin with...they don't have to be randomly evil. They are the mighty lords, and that's how they live. In the very...Discussions like this are why I still hold to my old 2e ethic of 'no antipaladins.'
They just don't make much sense.
Acting lawful good all the time doesn't result in a being who is fundementally broken on numerous levels. Having to /always/ be a paragon of chaotic evil is an exercise in madness and futility.
An antipaladin needs to be an engine of chaos and evil like a paladin should be one for law and good. Not just 'sort of meeting the requirements,' thats just plain old CE or LG.
He's a living personification of the concept. Thats why he gets the aura and is essentially a walking native outsider.
This sort of stuff got raised with Dragon magazine and its poorly though out 'Paladins of Every Alignment' thing. The chaotic evil paladin was required to be evil at every possible moment, to a level of self-parody.
I always pictured the guy riding into town, punching his horse, murdering someone at random, going into a restaurant, ordering raw chicks to eat, eating them with absolutely no recognition of table manners, using the bathroom and not washing his hands (since he's evil), skipping out on the bill and then stealing a new horse which he rode to someone's house, killed the occupants and then squatted there.
By his very existance, an antipaladin is disruptive, an agent of chaos and destruction. He's sort of incapable of functioning alongside normal society and floats on the edges as a sort of engine of chaos and destruction, this is well and good for a higher level sort, but for low level guys? That first level antipaladin? He's going to be locked up or hung. And if you can't make it past first level, where do the higher ones come from?
And I'm surprised no one's raised the monkey in the room yet.
Why would chaotic evil insist its champion have a /code/?
This is why I liked the 3e Blackguard more. It felt more impressive that this guy was either a fallen hero, or training up to become a beacon of darkness or something. You didn't have 'scrub' anti-paladins. I personally find the term 'blackguard' more pleasing then anti-paladin as well. Anti-paladin always makes me think of those old Square One TV cartoons with the positive and negative clay lumps charging at one another.
And your statement did made me think immediately of what might potentially be a crossthematic example of chaotic evil.
Chaos Space Marines from 40k. They can plot, they can plan, but they're literally given over to chaos and are generally not nice people on a planetary scale. That being said, I don't know how they'd live in an environment that didn't enable their chaos and evil.
Living in a castle or on the outskirts of town as an outlaw only gets one so far. And while the CSMs have gothic starships and live in the suburbs of hell, an antipaladin of low levels essentially is stuck being overglorified bandit with better saves.
Also his smite is arguably less useful as he probably can't smite the neutrally aligned lawmen sent after him and I'm fairly certain (I haven't checked recently) he can't heal himself like a normal paladin could.
I still don't grasp how an antipaladin holds to a 'code,' though. I keep picturing a weird catch-22 there.
"Lord Darkbane Asmodear I have been ever your servant. I profaned the holy. I ate the sacred sandwiches of Bytopia. I burned the thrice fold garments of Ungo the Fat."
"You have displeased me, by following my edicts you have violated the core tenants of chaos and evil, you should have not followed me so eagerly!"
"...but if I didn't you wouldn't empower me."
"No one said evil was fair."
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...You see, I disagree with the premise you've laid out on behavior, to begin with...they don't have to be randomly evil. They are the mighty lords, and that's howDiscussions like this are why I still hold to my old 2e ethic of 'no antipaladins.'
They just don't make much sense.
Acting lawful good all the time doesn't result in a being who is fundementally broken on numerous levels. Having to /always/ be a paragon of chaotic evil is an exercise in madness and futility.
An antipaladin needs to be an engine of chaos and evil like a paladin should be one for law and good. Not just 'sort of meeting the requirements,' thats just plain old CE or LG.
He's a living personification of the concept. Thats why he gets the aura and is essentially a walking native outsider.
This sort of stuff got raised with Dragon magazine and its poorly though out 'Paladins of Every Alignment' thing. The chaotic evil paladin was required to be evil at every possible moment, to a level of self-parody.
I always pictured the guy riding into town, punching his horse, murdering someone at random, going into a restaurant, ordering raw chicks to eat, eating them with absolutely no recognition of table manners, using the bathroom and not washing his hands (since he's evil), skipping out on the bill and then stealing a new horse which he rode to someone's house, killed the occupants and then squatted there.
By his very existance, an antipaladin is disruptive, an agent of chaos and destruction. He's sort of incapable of functioning alongside normal society and floats on the edges as a sort of engine of chaos and destruction, this is well and good for a higher level sort, but for low level guys? That first level antipaladin? He's going to be locked up or hung. And if you can't make it past first level, where do the higher ones come from?
And I'm surprised no one's raised the monkey in the room yet.
Why would chaotic evil insist its champion have a /code/?
Antipaladin code? Uh-huh...
An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An antipaladin’s code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don’t interfere with his goals.
...not much of a code...
Falling in love.
This is my guess.
I still don't grasp how an antipaladin holds to a 'code,' though. I keep picturing a weird catch-22 there.
"Lord Darkbane Asmodear I have been ever your servant. I profaned the holy. I ate the sacred sandwiches of Bytopia. I burned the thrice fold garments of Ungo the Fat."
"You have displeased me, by following my edicts you have violated the core tenants of chaos and evil, you should have not followed me so eagerly!"
"...but if I didn't you wouldn't empower me."
"No one said evil was fair."
Andoran
Because "Chaotic", for the 32682675276576257652465426 time does not mean "F@!! you I do what I want 24/7 365".
Because "Chaotic", for the 32682675276576257652465426 time does not mean "F&~$ you I do what I want 24/7 365".I still don't grasp how an antipaladin holds to a 'code,' though. I keep picturing a weird catch-22 there.
"Lord Darkbane Asmodear I have been ever your servant. I profaned the holy. I ate the sacred sandwiches of Bytopia. I burned the thrice fold garments of Ungo the Fat."
"You have displeased me, by following my edicts you have violated the core tenants of chaos and evil, you should have not followed me so eagerly!"
"...but if I didn't you wouldn't empower me."
"No one said evil was fair."
Andoran
365.25 right?
Joker is as CE as one can be. And yet, he most often makes detailed plans which he enacts with great precision
He doesn't care for anyone or anything but himself, and he does his best to sow chaos.
I'm pretty sure I can think of more CE character who do more than walk around randomly kicking puppies and killing children.
Chaotic =/= Stupid or even Impulsive!
I would note that most of jokers plan usually fail because halfway through or 3/4 quarters of way through, he says to hell with and does something totally random and completely unnecessary, which inevitably causes the plan to fail.
Also I would note that joker often times kills his own people for no reason, just cause, consider the dark knight movie, as excellent protrayal. he kills his entire crew, for no good reason. why would anyone work with joker after that? you wouldn't unless you were also crazy, and im glad the movie made it a point to show that the jokers henchmen were all mentally crazy.
no you can't think of one, because if you did, they wouldnt be chaotic evil, randomly doing evil stuff, is kind of the definition of chaotic evil.
We call that chaotic stupid actually... Which the anti-paladin doesn't have to be. I think its one of those things you can roleplay for a while but it gets old quick.
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Higher level other types that get remade as Anti-Paladins. In my book, they're usually Fallen Paladins or Fighter/Paladin combos.By his very existance, an antipaladin is disruptive, an agent of chaos and destruction. He's sort of incapable of functioning alongside normal society and floats on the edges as a sort of engine of chaos and destruction, this is well and good for a higher level sort, but for low level guys? That first level antipaladin? He's going to be locked up or hung. And if you can't make it past first level, where do the higher ones come from?
I'm with you.
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We call that chaotic stupid actually... Which the anti-paladin doesn't have to be. I think its one of those things you can roleplay for a while but it gets old quick.
Exactly.
Sowing chaos doesn't mean doing random crap. It means not caring about the ramifications of your acts, and thus causing discord...even doing it on purpose, sometimes. Start horrible rumors. Place burdens on people that they can't handle. Betray people. Live like your satisfaction is the only thing that matters, and you're a sadistic jerk.
I would note that most of jokers plan usually fail because halfway through or 3/4 quarters of way through, he says to hell with and does something totally random and completely unnecessary, which inevitably causes the plan to fail.
Not really, most of Joker's plans fail because Batman get in his way. Freaking Batman.
Also I would note that joker often times kills his own people for no reason, just cause, consider the dark knight movie, as excellent protrayal. he kills his entire crew, for no good reason. why would anyone work with joker after that? you wouldn't unless you were also crazy, and im glad the movie made it a point to show that the jokers henchmen were all mentally crazy.
no you can't think of one, because if you did, they wouldnt be chaotic evil, randomly doing evil stuff, is kind of the definition of chaotic evil.
Yes, CE character can be impulsive, and they can do evil things just for the lulz from time to time, I never disputed that. What I'm saying is that they don't have to be like that 24/7!
Most of the time Joker doesn't go around shooting puppies and stabbing people. He plans and enacts his plans.Chaotic characters are not any more stupid or impulsive than Lawful or Neutral character. They too can plan, plot and scheme. They too can use very precise methodology to achieve their goals.
But I'm not interested in this discussion, there's a reason I won't go anywhere near Paladin threads anymore, I should have known that the same reason also applies to AntiPaladin threads.
Enjoy you allignment discussion, I'm out.
How to make an anti paladin fall.
Having a Hafling rogue crit on a trip roll should work.