New GM here.
My group is getting annoying saying how it's impossible to make it through dungeons (I'm using the Jade Regent books) They say they keep running out of spells (There's a wizard, cleric, druid and an NPC fighter)
Any advice to tell them what to do?
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Put on your big boy pants! But seriously spell rationing is part of the game. Hint the should go old school of necessary and baracade the,selves in a room or retreat and come back later or utilize rope trick. You don't have to complete adventures all in one go.
Edit: durn iPhone keyboard grumble grumble
There are always cantrips, and both the cleric and druid can duke it out. The issue is that limited spells is one of the things that helps the warrior/wizard imbalance. Thus, they should run out of spells. They need to conserve spells for four encounters of 5 rounds each.
The Cleric has channel also, which really helps with spell conservation. A wand of Magic missile for the wiz and CLW for the two divine casters and they should be fine.
Any advice to tell them what to do?
Stop whining. Learn that these games have always been about resource management. Plan out how to secure themselves to recover their spells. Ask them why do they think the spell Rope Trick was invented?
They can't always expect to buff to the max and nova every encounter, then you will run out off spells far too quickly.
They will have to invest in a few wands and consumables, buy a few pearls of power and increase casting abilities for more spells. Also a few cheap alchemical items can be useful for anyone.
Do not feel compelled to use spells every round of combat, sometimes it is ok to use a school power you can use x times per day when things are under control.
Basically don't waste spells, don't be cheap and spend some money.
I'll +1 what everyone has already said. A) Your an adventurer, as Pyrrhic said, put on your big boy pants. 2) Spell conservation should absolutely be foremost on their mind. Just because they are a "caster" class doesn't mean they can't take out that scythe and do some melee damage.
what kind of casters are they and how big are these dungeons (please try to avoid spoilers as I am playing in a jade regent game). If they are more then around 5 encounters, the players probably should be able to rest somewhere or leave and comeback after resting. The standard day is 3-5 encounters. More then that and obviously anyone with per day resources (not just casters) will be dragging.
In addition to what's already been said:
Pearls of Power.
Headbands of INT or WIS to increase daily bonus spells.
Really high INT or WIS in the first place.
Purchase or craft wands of commonly used spells (Cure Light Wounds, Restoration, Detect Traps, Detect Secret Doors, Invisibility, Haste, whatever their favorite spells they use frequently).
And as always, spellcasting is a game of managing resources. Find a room with just a few goblins, no need to fire off the biggest spell we have, maybe let the fighter and divine casters wipe them out with melee while the wizard just pings away with a crossbow. Save the spells for when they're needed. Learn to judge when that is and when it is not.
Also, as a DM, it's best to remember that the use of daily resources (spells and HP, mostly, but also limited daily powers like druid wildshape or cleric channeling) is built around the idea of 4 appropriate encounters per day. Appropriate means that the CR of the encounter matches the party's level. If all the encounters are below the party level, then you should be able to have more than 4. If they're all above the party level, then the group will almost certainly run out of resources before they even get through 4 such encounters.
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Run them through a game of 1st or 2nd edition AD&D with all 1st level casters. They'll each get a single spell. That's it, just 1 spell for a 1st level caster. After that, they'll be more appreciative of the greater number of spells per day in pathfinder. Especially those unlimited 0 level spells!
New GM here.
My group is getting annoying saying how it's impossible to make it through dungeons (I'm using the Jade Regent books) They say they keep running out of spells (There's a wizard, cleric, druid and an NPC fighter)
Any advice to tell them what to do?
One of my players in my group is playing a wizard for the first time; normally that's my job. He's been wondering why all of my characters have cigarette habits. Now he's learning -- it's to give the caster something do to in a fight when "nova the biggest spell on the list" isn't a good option.
Resources are both valuable and expendable; spells doubly so. Lots of mundane problems should be handled by mundane means.
One of the nice things about Pathfinder is the at-will zero level spell. A caster can keep blasting Acid Splash all day if he wants to fell like he's participating. But I'm not wasting a fifth-level spell slot on a half dozen orcs, and if the tank has matters well in hand,.... well, that's what the pack of Camels is for.
+1 to Scribe Scroll
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There's good reason for a lot of wizards to manage their weight carried so they can haul around a light crossbow...
Also - scrolls. Of course wands and pearls of power, casting stats...anything that will give you those extra spells like others have already said...and make the spells count. Using the wrong spells at the wrong time will drain you quick.
I don't know what level your party is so I'll just comment on my own players in my game.
Currently they are APL 5. Over the last year they've learned to be much more conservative than when they started with their spells. They've learned this the hard way: trial and error, near-death experience and research.
Our first game ever, the first fight was the party against a giant spider. The wizard hurled a sleep on it (it made the save) and then the cleric of Erastil threw a bless on everyone. It scurried to the squishy monk and attacked, hurting her but not poisoning her. The fighter almost killed it in one hit and the monk missed. The next round the wizard fired an acid splash to finish it off and the cleric blew a CLW spell to heal her cousin the monk.
So to sum up: out of a total of 6 1st level spells they had, in the first encounter of the first game ever, they blew half their resources. Needless to say - the mites and their vermin very nearly ended the campaign in a total party wipe 3 rooms into the dungeon.
Now in our last session, the players showed a methodical, conservative pace, realizing they needed something decent in the tank for the final confrontation of the evening. They knew they were after a powerful ghoul witch so when they finally got into the crypt lair the wizard let fly with a carefully timed acid arrow. The cleric had buffed everyone to the nines (since she'd held onto her buffs for the fight) so all in all beating the guy was practically a foregone conclusion.
If you're a truly benevolent GM though, here are some ways I've allowed the party to prolong their spell-use over the course of an adventure:
- 1 or 2 charge wands
- a special power in the dungeon that charges up the spellcasters. Examples include: a font of divinely charged water, glyphs of arcane power, elemental portals. They might grant back a small amount of spellcasting at the cost of Fatiguing the caster or something.
- scrolls
- items up the players' alleys to keep them from using spells (crossbows, shields, or other gear)
- enviornmental effects that do the work of the spellcaster's spells: pyroclastic blasts a villain might be hurled into, steaming vents creating fog clouds, etc.
New GM here.
My group is getting annoying saying how it's impossible to make it through dungeons (I'm using the Jade Regent books) They say they keep running out of spells (There's a wizard, cleric, druid and an NPC fighter)
Any advice to tell them what to do?
One of my players in my group is playing a wizard for the first time; normally that's my job. He's been wondering why all of my characters have cigarette habits. Now he's learning -- it's to give the caster something do to in a fight when "nova the biggest spell on the list" isn't a good option.
Resources are both valuable and expendable; spells doubly so. Lots of mundane problems should be handled by mundane means.
One of the nice things about Pathfinder is the at-will zero level spell. A caster can keep blasting Acid Splash all day if he wants to fell like he's participating. But I'm not wasting a fifth-level spell slot on a half dozen orcs, and if the tank has matters well in hand,.... well, that's what the pack of Camels is for.
Or you could position for providing Flanks and Aid Another.
Or use a Ranged Weapon.Or carry smelling salts, Alchemist's Fires, Tanglefoot Bags.
Or use a wand.
Or use some scrolls.
Assuming you're running through Brinewall from JR. While a fun dungeon it isn't too challenging (a few encounters here and there) and should be just right for a group of new players especially. I agree with whats been posted re rationing of spells but if the 15 min adventuring day has them down consider adding another NPC from the caravan perhaps Sandru or at least coming across a wand of cure light wounds in the treasure from the next encounter.
I don't know what level your party is so I'll just comment on my own players in my game.
Currently they are APL 5. Over the last year they've learned to be much more conservative than when they started with their spells. They've learned this the hard way: trial and error, near-death experience and research.
Our first game ever, the first fight was the party against a giant spider. The wizard hurled a sleep on it (it made the save) and then the cleric of Erastil threw a bless on everyone. It scurried to the squishy monk and attacked, hurting her but not poisoning her. The fighter almost killed it in one hit and the monk missed. The next round the wizard fired an acid splash to finish it off and the cleric blew a CLW spell to heal her cousin the monk.
So to sum up: out of a total of 6 1st level spells they had, in the first encounter of the first game ever, they blew half their resources.
Hmm, most Wizard schools have a “3+ Int bonus per day” ability, and many clerics have one also. The Cleric can also Channel 3+ CHA bonus per day.
Thus, that’s 18 decent abilities per day for two first level spellcasters. So yeah they only had 6 SPELLS, but they had 24 abilities.
Note that this means that over 4 encounters those two would have six things to do each encounter without dipping into cantrips.
- a special power in the dungeon that charges up the spellcasters. Examples include: a font of divinely charged water, glyphs of arcane power, elemental portals. They might grant back a small amount of spellcasting at the cost of Fatiguing the caster or something.
I've often created a fountain, an artifact or something else that is corrupted or cursed in a large dungeon. If the party can remedy or fix the item, they each get some HP back, maybe a lesser restoration and possibly a spell or two back. It's a great to throw a challenge/puzzle at the party and reward them for solving it.
I played a fighter in a game where my friend the wizard deemed himself the "Master Flanker". He carried a polearm instead of a staff and would "aid other" from a relatively safe distance.
Or you could position for providing Flanks and Aid Another.
Or use a Ranged Weapon.
Or carry smelling salts, Alchemist's Fires, Tanglefoot Bags.
Or use a wand.
Or use some scrolls.
Exactly. If a player wants to roleplay having a smokestick rather than perform a game action that is anything tactically or mechanically useful, that is their call.
But I'd rather play with the player who is doing the most useful thing they can when their turn comes up. And with a Wizard, that does not have to be casting a spell.
Exactly. If a player wants to roleplay having a smokestick rather than perform a game action that is anything tactically or mechanically useful, that is their call.
Well, I did say "if the tank has matters well in hand." If the tank has something they need for help, then of course I'll do something tactically useful.
This came up in a recent session where most of the party had been pulled underwater and was fighting a brawler of some sort; the (novice) wizard had escaped the pull, but didn't have any effective Swim skill and ranged weapons fired from shore at submerged targets get some appalling penalty to the point of ineffectiveness.
There were a few uber spells that he could have cast, but that would have been overkill.
But I'd rather play with the player who is doing the most useful thing they can when their turn comes up. And with a Wizard, that does not have to be casting a spell.
Sometimes the most tactically useful thing you can do is stay out of the way.
Sometimes the most tactically useful thing you can do is stay out of the way.This is true. Someone mentioned a "master flanker" wizard with a polearm. Seems to me that many intelligent foes would 5' step and kick the crap out of that wizard with no armor rather than allowing him to keep poking him in the back and distracting him from the real threat.
That would mean lots of healing resources from the cleric in many cases and might end up wasting more resources than if the "master flanker" just did the tactically useful thing and stayed out of harm's way.
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If my level 3 wizard is hitting for 1d3+2 damage every round with acid splash, that's not earth-shaking, but I did about a third of the total damage done in the entire dungeon (the paladin did about half). Hitting every shot without consuming resources or getting in melee is nice. Big spells are for when things get dicey; that's when you cut off half the monsters with Create Pit, or Enlarge the paladin. But if you need more than one real spell for a combat, that had better be either a boss monster or a way to stop a run of spectacularly bad luck.
I see the problem, you have 3 players and 3 casters. I've run games like that and you do burn through spells much faster. In the games I've run having too many casters and not enough martials means you burn through spells on stuff that normally a fighter and rogue would clean up expending little to no resources. So you run out of spell quick with a party like that.
Now the NPC fighter might help things but it's not the same as having PC fighter in the group.
This problem with spells will disappear at they get higher in level and acquire more wealth. You will see more pearls of power, wands, scrolls, potions and wondrous items ease the resource situation.
My current group is APL 3, and here is how they handle MOST encounters.
The elven wizards fires his longbow all the time. He will buff the fighter with an enlarge person if the fight looks bad or a sleep spell to thin the herd, but other than that he is really good at keeping those spells handy and letting the tanks do their jobs.
The cleric follows suit. He will tank behind the fight and paladin and heal when he needs to, channeling or spont casting a cure spell.
Don't forget also, potions (glug glug) are your friend. As well as the various alchemy items (alchemist fire, acid) and other one shots.
When my party runs outta potions and scrolls, they are always looking for a place to hold up to make more.
If it is a small encounter that the players think looks level appropriate (sometimes not) they will not cast a spell at all until after the battle.
They just need to learn to hold back and not use everything in one battle would be my advice.
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Something that I have personally done in my group(s) (I have had many of the years), is to run "Tactics Day"s. Usually if a game day will be short, if we will be missing players for a very important arc of an adventure or campaign, then I'll run mock encounters with some pre-gens or current characters (and now iconic builds).
This serves two main purposes:
1) Help newer players see that there can be more to a battle than just hack-and-slash or spell slinging.
2) Give refreshers on rules that are not used as often (every group I have been in tend to forget about combat maneuvers, using terrain when available, etc.).
I also have about 3/5 of the normal people refuse to get ranged weapons for melee characters and weapons in general for casters. Sometimes it is good to remind them why it is good to have a "Plan B".
It's pretty hard to conserve resources, but it can be done. Don't let your party rest too often because they're burning through spells. But don't punish them for resting if they're doing a good job conserving resources and have finally run out after a good, long dungeon crawl.
You can try to help them find the happy medium, but they're going to have to work at conservation constantly. Let them know that there will almost never be a point where casters have the endurance they will want and they will just have to learn to deal with that. Even spontaneous casters will run out before their player wants them to.
It does get better with higher levels, but it will never be easy.
It would help a lot if they had more melee party members or ranged party members. It might be worth considering having another martial class NPC join up. Alternatively, let a wand of summon monster 2 drop sometime soon.
Something that I have personally done in my group(s) (I have had many of the years), is to run "Tactics Day"s. Usually if a game day will be short, if we will be missing players for a very important arc of an adventure or campaign, then I'll run mock encounters with some pre-gens or current characters (and now iconic builds).
This serves two main purposes:
1) Help newer players see that there can be more to a battle than just hack-and-slash or spell slinging.
2) Give refreshers on rules that are not used as often (every group I have been in tend to forget about combat maneuvers, using terrain when available, etc.).
I also have about 3/5 of the normal people refuse to get ranged weapons for melee characters and weapons in general for casters. Sometimes it is good to remind them why it is good to have a "Plan B".
That's awesome.
There is a ton of mundane gear that can be used situationally in combat. Didn't Ashiel write a guide about this?
There are aids, flanks, manuevers, familiar placements, etc. that low-level casters can utilize rather than just yawning and rolling an acid-splash or twiddling their thumbs and passing their turn.
Now, I'm assuming the OP's players are low level and have low wealth. If they are not, he needs to share a few more details as to exactly what problems his players are having.
Scrolls wands and potions oh my!
Scrolls and wands are often excellent for non-attack spells. Saving your casting slots for attack spells. This is an option I have seen used, though it can get expensive if you do it too much.
For example: all the 1 hour or 10 minute duration each caster level buff spells on the first level list are dirt cheap to scribe as a scroll and will still get you through a fight.
Why do you need to waste GPs on consumables all the time? Let us take the Wizard. He has three 1st lvl spells (including Bonus spells) and 6 or 7 school attacks. After that he has unlimited cantrips. Usu tactics is to buff himself with one spell, use school and cantrips until things get really nasty then lay down a spell, as Ascalaphus sez.
The cleric has the same number of spells, at least the same number of school/domain abilities and 6 or so Channels. He can also swing a mean mace/etc. Tactics s/b buff, use Channels for healing, and swing that mace.
Now sure prepared casters need to have a few scrolls up their sleeves “just in case’ esp those little used but very necessary spells like water breathing.
Casters (especially at low levels) should (and usually do) have options beyond casting their limited spells per day. Those options include using their unlimited cantrips, picking up an actual weapon (yeah spellcasters aren't as good as martial characters, but at low levels the difference is less than it will ever be as the BAB differences pile up), using tactics (who wants to toss the caltrops in front of the onrushing goblins?) or even simply finding a place to rest.
Managing daily spell limitations is a big part of this game. In the real world if you only have a few big powerful options, you ration them carefully. Players should do the same thing in the game.
I am well-known in my group for hoarding my spells as long as possible. My PCs almost never are the ones saying "Hey dudes, I'm out of spells, we gotta rest."
It's hard not to react to this sort of post with a snarky response like "learn the game". Because at root, that's the lesson that needs to be taught.