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Hello Forum!
I hope you all are well. It's time for another thoerycraft build that I want to try to make as effective as possible around the feat : Deadly Dealer.
First, to go over the objective. This exercise is foremost a way for me to practice building character, which I love to do. I want to be better at making effective, and sometimes completely optimized characters. But I love finding cool or unusual premises for my characters and I want to see how well I can make an effective character around something. I invite you to critique me, give me advice, or ideas. Please don't be afraid to post your own ideas and builds following the parameters set forth.
Alright, on to the Parameters:
20 pt buy
11th Level, with WBL
any race except custom ARG
any Paizo on the SRD, no 3PP
no houseruled, try to stick to RAW
Must have Deadly Dealer feat, and be combat effective, if not optimal. Primary damage should come from the feat, but not necessarily all damage.
Here's my attempt:
Human Bard (Archaeologist)
Level 11
Stats:
Str 15
Dex 20
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14
Feats:
1: Arcane Strike, Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
5: Deadly Dealer
7: Rapid Shot
9: Deadly Aim
11: Lingering Performance
Rogue Talents:
4th: Combat Trick: Weapon Focus (Dart)
8th: Combat Trick: Snap Shot
Spells Known:
0 : Detect magic, Mage Hand, Light, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Sift
1st: Grease, Magic Aura, Feather Step, Identify, Detect Secret Doors, Comprehend Languages
2nd: Allegro, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Silence, Versatile Weapon
3rd: Dispel Magic, Haste, Harrowing, Good Hope
4th: Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door
Skills:
Acrobatics 11 ranks
Bluff 5 ranks
Craft (Harrow Deck) 4 ranks
Disable Device 11 Ranks (+5)
Diplomacy 8 ranks
Knowledge (Local, Arcana, Nature, Dungeoneering, Religion, Planes) 1 rank each
Perception 11 ranks (+5)
Sleight of Hand 5 ranks
Spellcraft 11 ranks
Use Magic Device 11 ranks
Special Abilities:
Bardic Knowledge
Archaeologist's Luck +3
Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +3
Lore Master
Rogue Talents x2
Evasion
Jack of All Trades
Equipment: Starting at 82000 gp
1x Wand (50 charges) Greater magic Weapon, CL 12) 27000 gp
50 Harrow Decks 5000 gp
Mithril Chain Shirt +4 17100 gp
Belt of Dexterity +4 16000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +3 9000 gp
Handy Haversack 2000
Bag of holding II 5000 gp
Masterwork Theives' Tools 100 gp
Mithril extenders 820 gp
Various adventuring gear equaling no more than 1980 gp
Time for some calculations for To Hit and Damage with playing cards.
To Hit:
assuming the ability to buff, using Greater magic weapon for a +3, Good Hope, Haste, Arcane Strike, Rapid Shot, Archaeologist's Luck, Deadly Aim:
+18 /+18 / +18 / +13
Damage:
Assuming the above buffs:
1d4 + 17
So assuming 4 hits (which may be realistic, or not, I'm not sure), the bard does average 78 points in one round. With Harrow Cards. I like it.
Now it's not awesome damage, but I feel it's respectable, considering the Bard covers skill monkey, face, scout, and a buffer. I chose spells based off of what I saw being a helpful buff, or alternative benefit. Skills were chosen based off of filling face and skill monkey. I am horribly simplistic when it comes to items, I'm sure there are better combinations out there, so please weigh in with what could be improved.
I just love the idea of a poker playing card shark swindler using cards as weapons. Not only would this be a fun roleplaying character, I feel he wouldn't just be sitting back doing nothing during combat.
Please weigh in, tell me your opinions, your thoughts, your concerns. I am trying to become better at building characters. I'm open to anything constructive.
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You need to have him fight with a Quarterstaff in melee and have him talk with a New Orleans accent.
This is awesome.
AFAICT, you need Quickdraw. Darts are not ammo like shuriken, they are thrown weapons. Doesn't make much sense to me thematically, unless of course you're throwing cards with both hands.
I wonder if this would work well fork a STAFF MAGUS
STR, Thank you. I knew I was going to have comparisons, but yeah, I love it.
@ Pupsocket: Darts are listed as ammunition on the weapon tables here
Worst case, he holds a deck of cards in one hand, throws with the other, but I like the idea of using both hands to throw.
dot for sure, good luck.
Oh, forgot to add PBS to hit and damage, plus, Arcane Strike scales, so add +3 damage.within 30 feet, +2 beyond 30.
Makes it just a bit nicer.
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Man of the world, an unassuming Half-Orc with some obvious miles on him and the scars to match, a rat-sized lizard perched on his shoulder.
Before you even know it's a fight (+28 bluff, +35 Stealth), you're sucking up a [+26/+26/+21/+21, 1d4+16+3d6 each] attack routine.
If you're still alive, he has (best of 2d20)+12 on initiative, he can do the exact same thing again (except maybe the 3d6 sneak attack), and either has full concealment, or appeared to be unarmed in a civilized setting.
Half-Orc Wizard (foresight diviner) 1/Rogue 5/Horizon Walker 5
Racial options: Shamans Apprentice, whatever.
Str 10, Dex 20+4, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Feats:
1: Endurance (B), TWF
3: Arcane Strike
5: Quick Draw
7: Deadly Dealer
9: Lookout
11: Improved TWF
Rogue Talents: Terrain Mastery *2.
Horizon Walker: With the increases from Horizon Walker, that's favored terrain (Urban)+12 (+14 with the boots). Also, +4 Diplomacy, Charm Person SLA 3+wis times/day, and Ethereal Terrain Mastery to ignore mist and fog and gain full concealment himself.
Wizard: The lizard is a Compsognathus Familiar with the Valet archetype. Forewarned, Prescience.
Notable Equipment: Boots of Friendly Terrain (activated in the morning with UMD), +4 Dex belt, magic items to cast Greater Magic Weapon, other weapon buffs, and fog/mist spells.
How does it work: There are two tricks.
The first is Terrain Dominance, from the Horizon Walker, giving him a +14 Favored Enemy bonus vs. urban creatures. Super vague, but should apply to basically any humanoid.
The second trick, full attack on the surprise round. The Valet familiar has the Lookout feat, so if the familiar can act in the surprise round (and it should be able to), that's a full-round attack.
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STR, Thank you. I knew I was going to have comparisons, but yeah, I love it.
@ Pupsocket: Darts are listed as ammunition on the weapon tables here
Worst case, he holds a deck of cards in one hand, throws with the other, but I like the idea of using both hands to throw.
The darts mentioned as ammunition are blowgun darts. Standard (hand thrown) darts are not considered ammunition.
Shuriken are the only weapon AFAIK which count as both thrown weapon and ammunition. And this exception is explicitly stated in both the description of the weapon and the part on ammunition.
Dart are not mentioned as benefitting from such an exception.
Note that you can also use TWF (in addition to Rapid Shot) with thrown weapons.
If they are treated as improvised weapon, then things change.
Rough and Ready trait makes it awesome, and Monk of the Empty End and Breaker Barbarian seem worthwhile dips.
This "as if it were" such or such weapon is definitely not clear IMO. We have the same words (and the same problem of lack of clarity) on Flame Blade :-(
I would love for someone to find some official quote/ruling that clarified this kind of situation.
I see this as working with a Thrower/TWFér.
Weather or not it can be Achived with enough TO HIT to make it worthwhile remains to be seen.
I would try either Arcane Duelist (with a Staff as your bonded weapon.)
you get arcane strike for free and can enhance the staff as if you had the appropriate craft feats.
First, let's address the darts as ammunition. The page on darts, straight from the weapon list specifically states in bold at the top Ammunition (Thrown): Darts. Here's the link. This calls in the debate whether they gain the inherent benefit of ammunition, even though it's not explicitly stated in the description. But if they aren't treated as ammunition, then why are they categorized as ammunition? there are only two Ammunition (Thrown), darts and shuriken. I would say that they would have the same benefit, under RAI, but RAW is REALLY unclear.
Second, as for the cards working with feats, it is really ambiguous, except in my build, the only feat that calls out darts explicitly, is weapon focus. So worst case scenario, you could change it to Weapon Focus (cards) or you gain two feats to speed up the progression, losing Weapon Focus, and Snap Shot, since WF is a prerequisite. That way you lose a +1 bonus to hit, and the ability to threaten with the cards. not a big loss to the build, even frees up a feat for TWF, though I feel we are already on shaky To Hit ground. Thoughts?
Bump. IM really really interested in doing this with my arcane duelist bard.
How would Arcane Bond work for cards?
Lazy Corpse if you look at the link you used as proof it indicates in parenthesizes that it is a thrown weapon and when you select the link for it. The description has no verbiage about using the ammunition rules. Comparing the description for shuriken it does have the necessary text indicating that it uses the ammunition rules.
Now as to the dart being found on the ammunition page I can only say it is likely a mistake. If you look at the bottom of that page it also lists a Bedroll Master worked. Why I don't know maybe for those deadly pillow fights :)
I believe the Deadly Dealer feat should be changed to indicate that they are treated as ammunition for wielding purposes as well as allow the wielder to activate the entire deck with arcane strike. So you can throw multiple cards but as it stands now. You can only throw one card per round since activating arcane strike is a swift action and it only indicates that it effects one card in the feat.
Would bladethirst work on 50 cards? And how am i able to throw 4 cards? Deck in one hand and throw with another?
Also why do you need Harrowing Decks?
I think the idea is that you need harrow cards if you're planning to enchant them since you can only enchant masterwork weapons and the harrow cards count as masterwork weapons. Maybe LazyCorpse just wanted +1 to hit for being masterwork though.
A few levels of Paladin could help with attack rolls and damage vs evil foes though it might not seem to fit the theme depending on your personal tastes. Four levels of Paladin with Oath of Vengeance and a silver smite bracelet would work out well if you wanted to try this route. A CL9 wand of Divine Favor might make sense either way.
@Narrater, Yes, in parentheses it indicates, Thrown, just like Shuriken.
That's the whole catch. There are only two Ammunition (Thrown). My question is why does the ammunition property only count towards shuriken?
That's the rub, ammunition grants the ability to be enchanted in bulk, to be drawn freely, and a chance to be found or destroyed. Doesn't dart qualify for that, being listed as ammunition on the table, even though other ammunition doesn't state that ability?
Devilkiller has it right, you have to have masterwork items to enchant them. Plus, if you don't have time to enchant them, you still have a +1 to hit. Also, for flavor, just saying, "Let me show you your future!" (throws deadly card) is awesome. HAHAHAH
@LazyCorpse One should note that it's only D20pfsrd.com that classificates darts as Ammunition (Thrown). Looking at the book or the PRD they're Thrown weapons. Then at page 141 of the Core Rulebook, in the Ammunition paragraph, the rules state about shurikens:
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons on page 149), and what happens to them after they are thrown.
But nothing about darts. Quickdrawn is needed then. But I agreed with Narrater about changing the feat. At least changing it to work like shurikens (except proficiency). It even makes more sense, damage-wise.
On the topic, I'm sad that you did not let us use 3PP. Dreamscarred Press' Advanced Psionic Guide has some killer feats for use with thrown weapons.
I agree freduncio about the proficiency part. Its probably why they selected dart in the first place since it is a simple weapon. I believe they didn't want to get any more wordy then it already was :p
I certainly like the feat and think it is a flavorful idea but think the feat needs work to be more then a backup trick.
Im gonna play it and see how it goes in a rise of the runelords campaign. To hit might be the issue since i dont get as many self buffs as an arcane duelist. But this does leave me open to getting Craft Wondrous Item at 3. But at the same time i am gonna need Weapon focus Dart probably.
I don't have the inclination to build it, but the Ninja class and specifically the Ki Charge ninja trick seem like they would synergize well with a few levels of bard, in order to build a nasty Deadly Dealer character.
I surrender the point, then. Thank you Narrater and Freduncio. Your comments and opinions, with facts to back them up, are valuable, and I do appreciate your input.
Quickdraw isn't a bad feat to pick up, but it does make it tough for the proposed build, since it's feat starved as is...
We could drop Snap shot, it's more there to make the build easier to manage in melee, allowing the bard to become a flanking buddy if needed.
@Lamontius: A ninja added in doesn't seem to be a bad idea, taking vanishing trick, allows us to add some SA damage dice... I will contemplate this, I may build it to see.
@Gallyck, please keep us posted on how playing the build goes. maybe post your build details, allowing us to see how certain parts work together.
Your certainly welcome LazyCorpse. I would suggest asking your GM if you can tweak the feat a little to better suit your concept.
Honestly, right now I'm only in one campaign, as a Reach Cleric, which I am starting to REALLY love. These theorycraft sessions are ways for me to find something I see cool and for me to practice making effective if not optimized. Unfortunately, I doubt I will play any of the ideas I have. But your input is greatly appreciated, and I love bouncing ideas around and seeing others view points on how things could be built.
If I ever find another group to play with, I would love to be in two games at once. I love playing tabletop RPGs.
It's just that I've tried meetup, hitting the local gaming stores, and it's all hit or miss, and I've missed a lot in trying out.
@BBT, I would honestly say that even though it's a card, you treat it as a dart, and if you have proficiency with a dart, it isn't improvised. But RAW is vague, but i truly believe that is the RAI.
But, BBT, I also do value your input, too, becuase I would have completely overlooked that, without a second glance. Thanks for helping me more aware of such grey areas. My next theorycraft post will be better because I'll look at every detail.
So thanks for that. It's really funny how different players assume different consequences from reading the exact same sentence. Just shows that as a player, you can't assume everyone reads everything the same way you do.
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hm... if i played this character i would need to play him as a mymidarch magus, i know i spelled that wrong, otherwise i couldnt get the true gambit feel. i would love to toss shocking grasp and a few other nice spells i could toss on those cards.... man i think ill play this guy in pfs now !!! GRRRR... character number 800
While admittedly not as good as a real weapon, Myrmidarch Magus is probably the best option for a deadly dealer. Draw a card while moving, cast (Intensified?) snowball, and then channel it through the card.
At 11+ add scorching ray followed by a volley of burning cards.
Getting weapon training (and thus the ability to use gloves of dueling) helps too.
They can also use their arcane pool on top of greater magic weapon to enhance their deck, and if they don't mind spending two rounds to do so, frostbite and full attack.
Flavour wise this seems the best option, but having to spend the swift action every round to enable the cards to be thrown seems like it will be rather harmful to a magus' effectiveness. He'd have to activate his arcane pool the round before actually attacking, and Arcane Accuracy, Dispelling Strike, Hasted Assault, and all the various Immediate Action arcanas become useless. And no quickened spellstrikes.
Basically, the feat is a bust. You're paying this feat, and probably quick draw as well, to do 1d4 damage with shurikens instead of 1. That's not a good trade.
You also get 54 weapons with one enchantment, instead of 50. Insignificant. Another thing is access to enchantments; conceivably, the cards could have weapon enchantments for thrown weapons instead of those for ammunition, but I'm not seeing any interesting tricks there.
A few notes about my build:
We roll stats. 4d6 drop lowest reroll 1s. You can get some insane stats that way. But we are three manning RoTRL so this hopefully makes up for it. (But the aasimar who rolled the +2 con on the chart has INSANE stats of 20 Str, 18 Con 18 Cha)
3 traits (1 Campaign 2 other)
Locke LeBeau
Human Arcane Duelist 1
Str 14
Dex 18 put my + 2 from being a human here.
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 11
Cha 18
AD1: Arcane Strike
1: Point Blank Shot
H: Precise Shot
Traits:
Campaign Trait Outlander (Lore Seeker (Still need to pick 3 spells that count as +1 cl.)
Vagabond (+1 Disable Device Disable Device becomes a class skill)
Maestro Of Society
My GM is counting the cards as Darts. Basically ruling that the cards card shaped darts so if i weapon focus it will eb dart and i cant utilize the rough and ready trait =(
First session i threw some daggers and serenaded my party mates and killed a goblin with my quarterstaff.
Funny thing about throwing daggers. It works. Decent damage. But throwing Clubs would in more effective lol.
As far as feats at 3 I kinda want to take Craft Wondrous if not it will be weapon focus dart.
Being a gnome may not be wonders for your point buy, but their favored class bonus completely fixes the Archaelogist Bard's performance times/day
So im building this character and its a blast. About to hit 3 which is where my im at a loss.
Craft Wondrous? TWF? Weapon Focus Dart? Weapon Focus Dart wont even do anything until lvl 5 when i can take deadly Dealer. TWF will help with my daggers. Right now im just throwing them. Craft Wondrous would get plenty of play in my group.
We are playing rise of the runelords and the other party members are a Barbarian, Dwarf Battle Cleric with a longhammer and a Aasimar Honor Guard .
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*raise dead* was just cast. :-)
@LazyCorpse:
There are Blowgun Darts, Wushu Darts, and Darts (like seen in the dartboard at a bar). The feat makes the cards work like the bar darts.
I think Pupsocket's Half-Orc Wizard (foresight diviner) 1/Rogue 5/Horizon Walker 5 is the best yet. Getting that insane Favored Enemy bonus makes sure the attacks hit. [attack at +26/+26/+21/+21]
/cevah
OK. Scratch Bar Darts and replace with Lawn Darts. :-)
Either way, significantly larger than the other kinds of darts.
/cevah
Dawnflower Dervish would maximize your card damage, but the fluff just doesn't fit.
That's a non-issue, since the fluff is mutable.