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![]() Honestly, right now I'm only in one campaign, as a Reach Cleric, which I am starting to REALLY love. These theorycraft sessions are ways for me to find something I see cool and for me to practice making effective if not optimized. Unfortunately, I doubt I will play any of the ideas I have. But your input is greatly appreciated, and I love bouncing ideas around and seeing others view points on how things could be built. If I ever find another group to play with, I would love to be in two games at once. I love playing tabletop RPGs.
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![]() I surrender the point, then. Thank you Narrater and Freduncio. Your comments and opinions, with facts to back them up, are valuable, and I do appreciate your input. Quickdraw isn't a bad feat to pick up, but it does make it tough for the proposed build, since it's feat starved as is...
@Lamontius: A ninja added in doesn't seem to be a bad idea, taking vanishing trick, allows us to add some SA damage dice... I will contemplate this, I may build it to see. @Gallyck, please keep us posted on how playing the build goes. maybe post your build details, allowing us to see how certain parts work together. ![]()
![]() @Narrater, Yes, in parentheses it indicates, Thrown, just like Shuriken.
Devilkiller has it right, you have to have masterwork items to enchant them. Plus, if you don't have time to enchant them, you still have a +1 to hit. Also, for flavor, just saying, "Let me show you your future!" (throws deadly card) is awesome. HAHAHAH ![]()
![]() I actually had an awesome OMG WTF session last week, and I'm a player. HAHA Party has a Bear Shaman Druid tank, with bear companion, half orc Scarred Witch Doctor, a small halfling-esque archer fighter, dwarven monk, and a NG human reach cleric (das me), all level 3. To set it up, home brew campaign, after a roleplay session to kick off, we find ourselves transported to an underground cavern complex inhabited by hybrid deformed ogrekin. Extremely dumb but nasty if they hit. so for 3 sessions we are wandering around getting really freaked out by what we overhear before we slaughter, something about "Father". We finally get into something looking man made, like the ogrekin tunneled into a castle wall. We come to a large hall, where every candelabra is broken except one.... so obviously our druid decides to pull on it, opening a secret room.... containing "Father" a 15 ft tall Ogre King Skeleton weilding a huge great club. We all C&%$ our pants, and me being all good and stuff, with a nat 20 init resulting in a 28, I stride up to the skeleton, about 15 ft away, shout "UNDEAD SHALL NOT BE SUFFERED" and channeled, for 2 pts of damage. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA regardless, I tanked the first hit, as everyone else rushed to help defeat him. After we downed him in about 3 rounds, we stood around like AW YEAH, except the skeleton was reforming. 2 rounds later, he is back up and chasing us. So we close him back in the room, to buy us some time to run. As we are running, I pass off my wand of CLW to the Druid, and post up as rearguard. We stumble onto an ongoing battle between drow and the ogrekin, and had to go into initiative. Again I roll an natural 20, but I delay until after the last one in our group goes. The group starts wading through the battle, trying to clear a lane to run through, but the drow won't have it. Finally "Father" shows up at the end of the hall, and I ready against the charge, as I'm the closest to him at about 60 ft away. He comes in, I hit, deal massive ton of damage (for level 3), he hits me, I'm at 7 hit points. Our group moves about 20 ft down, to the next skirmish, as I step back, ready to hit him when he comes in. I hit him, deal massive damage, he misses. Repeat 3 more times, moving less than 10ft a round as my group slowly starts putting distance between themselves and my tanking. They finally clear the hallway and take off, fully expecting me to blitz away. But my character wouldn't, he would stand his ground for his comrades, to buy them as much time as he could. The Dm had me leave to a different room, since he wanted to increase the suspense for both sets of players. So a few minutes later, he comes in, has me roll my readied attack, again I hit, and managed to drop the boss. Soloed him, no one else helped in any way. Huge points for being a bad ass and roleplaying my character true. I walk out of the other room, like my character would, victorious, proud, ignoring his injuries, just as the boss reassembles and rushes to us as we get through a doorway out of the caves... The group was completely awestruck that my character handled the boss, they surely expected me to die, and honestly, I did too. I called my DM out on fudging rolls, something I hate personally. he showed me every dice roll to hit me as a courtesy, nothing higher than a 4. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Sorry for the wall. ![]()
![]() First, let's address the darts as ammunition. The page on darts, straight from the weapon list specifically states in bold at the top Ammunition (Thrown): Darts. Here's the link. This calls in the debate whether they gain the inherent benefit of ammunition, even though it's not explicitly stated in the description. But if they aren't treated as ammunition, then why are they categorized as ammunition? there are only two Ammunition (Thrown), darts and shuriken. I would say that they would have the same benefit, under RAI, but RAW is REALLY unclear. Second, as for the cards working with feats, it is really ambiguous, except in my build, the only feat that calls out darts explicitly, is weapon focus. So worst case scenario, you could change it to Weapon Focus (cards) or you gain two feats to speed up the progression, losing Weapon Focus, and Snap Shot, since WF is a prerequisite. That way you lose a +1 bonus to hit, and the ability to threaten with the cards. not a big loss to the build, even frees up a feat for TWF, though I feel we are already on shaky To Hit ground. Thoughts? ![]()
![]() STR, Thank you. I knew I was going to have comparisons, but yeah, I love it. @ Pupsocket: Darts are listed as ammunition on the weapon tables here Worst case, he holds a deck of cards in one hand, throws with the other, but I like the idea of using both hands to throw. ![]()
![]() Hello Forum! I hope you all are well. It's time for another thoerycraft build that I want to try to make as effective as possible around the feat : Deadly Dealer. First, to go over the objective. This exercise is foremost a way for me to practice building character, which I love to do. I want to be better at making effective, and sometimes completely optimized characters. But I love finding cool or unusual premises for my characters and I want to see how well I can make an effective character around something. I invite you to critique me, give me advice, or ideas. Please don't be afraid to post your own ideas and builds following the parameters set forth. Alright, on to the Parameters: 20 pt buy
Must have Deadly Dealer feat, and be combat effective, if not optimal. Primary damage should come from the feat, but not necessarily all damage. Here's my attempt: Human Bard (Archaeologist)
Feats:
Rogue Talents:
Spells Known:
Skills:
Special Abilities:
Equipment: Starting at 82000 gp
Time for some calculations for To Hit and Damage with playing cards. To Hit:
+18 /+18 / +18 / +13 Damage:
1d4 + 17 So assuming 4 hits (which may be realistic, or not, I'm not sure), the bard does average 78 points in one round. With Harrow Cards. I like it. Now it's not awesome damage, but I feel it's respectable, considering the Bard covers skill monkey, face, scout, and a buffer. I chose spells based off of what I saw being a helpful buff, or alternative benefit. Skills were chosen based off of filling face and skill monkey. I am horribly simplistic when it comes to items, I'm sure there are better combinations out there, so please weigh in with what could be improved. I just love the idea of a poker playing card shark swindler using cards as weapons. Not only would this be a fun roleplaying character, I feel he wouldn't just be sitting back doing nothing during combat. Please weigh in, tell me your opinions, your thoughts, your concerns. I am trying to become better at building characters. I'm open to anything constructive. ![]()
![]() So totally true for trying to maximize bad things. For a game needing optimization, it's extremely poor. But for a homebrew just relaxing, this build would be mighty fun to play, even if you didn't survive the first combat. Scare the DM by grabbing a bunch of dice, and a claculator (just for kicks), maybe even kicking off your shoes to count on toes. LOL and then surprise him with a lousy 80 damage. HAHAHA This honestly was more an exercise in me practicing theory crafting, and seeing if my posts made sense. While I knew it wasn't going to bethe huge over 9000 damage, I am surprised that the damage is so little... LOL Thank you guys though, for weighing in. I love theory crafting, and maybe someday I'll actually turn it towards a viable build. HAHAHA ![]()
![]() Do'h. Totally forgot that the DC is based off of Cha. HAHAH What i was trying to do was create a build of a cleric to do AS MUCH DAMAGE AS HE POSSIBLY CAN!!!!!! (going for the epic feel for the caps) in one hit. Yeah, with average rolls, he doesn't break into triple digits at 11. Sigh, it was fun though. Psionichamster, that would make a great party member. Definitely geared out better. +1 for your name too. HAHA ![]()
![]() Hello MESSAGEBOARDS! I have fallen in love with the cleric class, there isn't a role they can't fill, though there are spots that they lack or are limited. I was thinking the other day about optimizing a heavy hitting Cleric, and how to build one. They would revolve around a standard attack, dealing as much damage as possible with one swing. That's the goal I am trying to reach. I decided an 11th level Cleric would be a good place to start, and can reverse engineer it down to 1st level if needed. Now my thoughts were that they would channel negative energy, the majority of the time you will face living creatures, but sometimes you need to hit that undead baddy hard,so versatile channeling will make it into the build if I can get it to fit. Starting out, I'm going to pick human as a race, with a 20 pt buy stat spread. The starting stats will look like this: Str 16 (+2)
Ok, first off, Str will be primary, and probably the only stat getting the bonus points. I wanted a positive Cha, for extra channels, and a positive Wis, to increase the DC of channeled energy as much as we can afford. This guy isn't being built to take a lot of hits, he's built to hit a homerun in one round, quite possibly killing a BBEG in one hit, maybe two if he survives. So next up, we have domains. Now my DM allows "ideal" worshipping, so We have a ton of flexibility. Rage (destruction) fits in with the smite ability, doesn't even cost an action, and at 8th level you can enter a rage like a barbarian. Protean (Chaos) is one of my favorite domains, and witha conductive weapon, allows us to force the creature to reroll their will save, granting us a better chance to deal full damage. And as a bonus, Gorum has access to both domains, and has the greatsword as a favored weapon. BONUS! So next come the feats. 1st: Improved Channel, Channel Smite
Improved Channel to up the DC, Channel Smite because that's what I'm trying to build around. Power Attack is a great feat, adds a great bonus to damage. Furious focus because it allows us to ignore the Power Attack penatly, for the first attack of the round. It fits great because our cleric is being built for only one attack a round. Same goes for Vital Strike. Weapon Focus is there for the bonus to hit. Extra Channel is there to help increase our ability to smite more often. Equipment! Who doesn't like buying equipment? Arguably one of the better aspects of building a character! HAHAHA Weapon, weapon, weapon is our primary item, our build is dependent on it. We have 82,000 gold to spend on our equipment. Lets start going over abilities:
So perusing the magic item list, a +4 Spell Storing Conductive Greatsword will cost us 72,000 gold. A hefty price for a great weapon, but that only leaves us 10,000 gold for other items to buff our damage. Let's list a few good ones, and we can pick and choose what we want. Belt of Giant's Strength +4: 16000 gold And honestly I looked for awhile, but nothing really increased our base damage that I could find. Maybe you know of some other abilities I could look at. If we drop our greatsword to +2, we will have enough to buy a Belt of GS +4, a headband of wis+4 and have some left over for armor, even though for the purpose of this build we aren't worrying about surviving after the first hit. So our gear looks like this:
Honestly, not too shabby compared to other 11th level characters, but lacking some potentially serious gear to survive long, but we aren't worried about that for this. Headband is to help with the Channel Smite DC, and to cast spells. Belt of GS is to help hit and damage. Nothing new or exciting there. So our revised stats look like this: Str 24
All ability increases went into Str. So let's look at our potential to hit and damage. Finally, the meat of the topic. Assuming you are within melee, and are not suffering any effects that affect anything, really... We are looking at: +8 (base) +7 (str) +2 (Magic) +1 (Weapon Focus) = +18 to hit Could be better, but lacks the buff of a full BAB progression. Add in Divine power at CL 11, that becomes a +21. Base Damage, using Vital Strike, Channel Smite, Power Attack and Inflict Serious Wounds stored in our sword: 2d6 + 2d6 (vital) + 10 (Str) +2 (Magic) + 9 (Power Attack) + 6d6 (Channel) + (3d8+11) (inflict Spell stored = (average rolls) 80.5 damage 80.5 damage assuming average rolls. And if the target fails both will saves, due to our conductive touch of chaos.
You can double check me on my math, but for the most part, I think I'm right... Just play a big hit build fighter. HAHAHAHA
Thank you for participating in my theory craft. Please leave a comment, correct my errors, weigh in with other options, or viable channel smite builds. I'm only human, and therefore fallible. Have a great one! ![]()
![]() Exactly the point that I was trying to make to my DM, hence the undecided value on rewriting a cleric, Calagnar. My DM is usually fair, but I don't know what else I could do to persuade him. If he does allow a rewrite, I will almost for sure go with debuff cleric, which will allow the witch and I to work off of each other and control the field better. The more I look at it, the more I feel Domain Strike isn't good, needing IUA as a prereq, and the damage from unarmed strike is horrible at any level unless I start taking monk levels. I was instead thinking of taking weapon finesse, building a high wisdom, decent dex, using a spiked gauntlet, if my DM rules that lease a hand from for casting.... Saves two feats at 3rd level, one for combat casting, and I don't know what the other feat would be, any suggestions. The stat build out would look like this: Human Cleric level 3
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Combat Casting, Unknown.
Let me know your opinions. ![]()
![]() Ok, the DM won't allow me to change classes. He is undecided about me overhauling my cleric. So I pose another question. With Brewer's Guide to Reach Clerics, if I am unable to rewrite my cleric, what path, or paths should I look into to try to be unique but not losing power.... Sacred summons will probably be ruled against my favor, due to being very clear in the writing. ![]()
![]() Update:
Calagnar, if I did go bard, would you recommend any builds or archetypes to follow? I'm not saying I will go bard, but I will explore the option. ![]()
![]() @RangerJeff It's not that we lack ranged, we have a fighter using a composite(+5) longbow, and able to nail some decent damage already at level 3. What I am truly worried about regardless of what character I end up playing, which will either be a reach cleric or a debuff cleric, is being relegated to just healing after battles. everything we have faced so far (hasn't been too much yet, I think the DM is just testing the waters) hasn't had more than one round alive before the three melee monsters have it killed. Yeah, I should wait a few more sessions before switching, but, counting the animal companion, at our level, we have 4 people doing the exact same thing the same round, and nothing lives. Cool, but I usually give my reroll for initiative to the druid, so I'm acting almost last compared to the melee, (I've rolled poorly for intiative every time so far). I just don't want to be the heal monkey, I tried to avoid it by going the reach cleric to be at least effective, now I'm redundant. I don't like it, it makes me sad that the DM allowed some (imo) broken min/maxed races, but such is life, not my call. I'm just trying to make my place in the group something relevant. ![]()
![]() Thinking of changing to Chaotic neutral, to take advantage of some of the better evil debuff spells. I'm probably going to take several scrolls of owl's wisdom, to up my DCs for some big combat situations. Does the hold the charge spell make Combat casting almost irrelevant? I know there will be times that I won't be able to cast then move to a target. Gronk de'Morcaine, thank you. I like your character, especially the story. ![]()
![]() Hi guys, I've been tooling around the forums and have had a great time reading and contributing (admittedly, not much yet). So I look to the webs to ask a few questions about what I should do in the predicament I am in. Here's some background. Group of 4 PCs, I'm one of them, started Rise of the Runelords. We had been playing for roughly 7-9 sessions, but have had a few breaks in between a few sessions due to RL circumstances. Two weeks ago, our DM sat us down and had a heart to heart, and a round table discussion about how he feels our characters aren't part of the world, have no life, no personalities. Totally true, we all felt like the AP was on rails, that we had no ability to adventure off the path set before us. So he wanted to drop the AP, and head to a homemade campaign, and wanted to add a 5th PC. We all agreed. We discussed class options and what would be available. We needed someone capable of heals, so I volunteered as Cleric. Had a great (in my mind) spellcaster cleric idea, we started at level 3, built him up, and started looking around on the forums for a few pointers... Boy that build got thrown out fast, I found a link to Brewer's Reach Cleric, and I fell in love with it. Remade the cleric from the ground up following the guide the night before the first new session. So the next day, we sit down at the table and I found out what everyone else would be playing.... Here goes, best of what I can remember: Druid Bear Archetype
Monk
Fighter, Archer Archetype
Witch Scarred Witch Doctor Archetype
My Cleric
Feats: Combat reflexes, improved initiative, Power Attack
So everything is 20 point buy, standard WBL. With one bad HP roll, I am now the lowest HP character, by 7 hp, iirc. So now we have 4 melee characters, counting the bear animal companion of the druid. Not only is it crowded in melee, my damage is pitiful even with Power Attack compared to anyone else in Melee. The Fighter gets upset if I buff myself, says it's a waste of an action, that as a cleric I should be buffing the other guys. Ok, I can understand that, but the druid already told me he will buff himself whenever he needs it, has one CLW prepared as an emergency for someone.
I fear that the witch and myself are going to be completely irrelevant to the party and just used as healbots/buffbots. And that's what I wanted to avoid by going with the reach cleric, to at least be a contribution to the party. So I've been thinking that since we lack control, of making a bad touch cleric. Obviously that means a complete overhaul of the character. I'm fine with that, and I will post a possible build of it later in the post.
Ok, here is my bad cleric build that I am thinking of going. I am basing it off of Tark's build in his guide. Human Cleric level 3
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Domain Strike (Touch of Chaos)Weapon Finesse
The idea behind the character is to play him as if he was touched by pure chaos on accident, maybe hit by a meteor sent by a Protean. He'd be partially mad, talking to himself often, little things to roleplay. He'd be "worshiping" an ideal. I would take Domain Strike again for Touch of madness, maybe, I see it being viable. What other feat progression would you recommend? I apologize for the HUGE post. I just have concerns and since my Dm has been unreachable, I turn to you to help.
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![]() Don't forget the Summon Monster series.... great for a spell casting Cleric as you seemed to have built. Always helps for damage sponges, damage dealers, and if used with some thought, interesting ways to deal with problems. Quick Channel is a definite, helps with action economy also. You could also look into debuff spells, even damage spells, but the issue becomes touch attacks, but for area effects or close spells, you have a great DC. I recommend summoning, a very powerful addition to your repertoire while costing almost nothing but spell slots. Item creation.... maybe scribe scroll, expands your spell casting, which is your best ability. ![]()
![]() While 2 levels of monk offers a lot towards Bad touch, I feel that they are not the best way to go for a Bad Touch build.
By the time you get to 2nd level spells, you will be a CL3 facing 5th level challenges, your DCs will be lower than they need to be, and so will your spell selection. Remember, bad touch isn't just about domain abilities, but also about spells that debuff your targets. I recommend going Cleric from the start, Human. keep the stat priorities the same. Feats would be at first level Improved unarmed Strike and Domain Strike (Touch of Madness). That will allow you to excel at using your domain abilities at first level, plus allow you to keep a monk flavor for fluff. Stay in light armor, chain shirt if possible for mobility. At third level you can pick up Weapon finesse, which then drives your strikes by Dex, instead of Str. From there, several style feats are nice to strive for, Dragon in particular, since it helps ignore difficult terrain for some types of actions, and allows you to charge through allies squares, which is really nice. I suggest reading Tark's guide, at the end he talks about bad touch clerics, though I would love more of an expansion on them. Guide is located here:
Again, going monk looks like it adds great features, but in my opinion, you lose out on what you really need, caster level and spells, so the bonuses aren't worth it. It's a shame... |