Unfortunately, that's one of the eventual consequences of releasing decades' worth of payloads of setting material for a single world. After a certain point, it becomes prohibitively difficult for new talent to keep track of the entirety of the continuity, and you spend way too much time checking and double-checking that you haven't stepped on the toes of previous works in the same setting. After a while, everyone starts itching for something of a reboot.
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If I understand the OP correctly, he is asking for more campaign setting flavor. Something that you can just sit down and read and get a sense of the area, the people, the odd quick in this corner of the city, the butcher that no one trusts because of a crime years ago that is only talked about in rumors. You really can't do that with a book of prestige classes or archetypes or NPCs or monsters or ...
I can totally see what he is saying. My two favorite books published by Paizo are (in order of preference) the Guide to the Darkmoon Vale and the City of Strangers (excellent work on that one, James). Reason being is that the GttDV has exactly 1 page of crunch in it. One. CoS has 4 pages plus 2 magic items and a city stat block. Aside from that, the rest of those books are nothing but pure "sit back on a couch reading and planning your next campaign, even if it never happens" joy.
Despite how much I love the River Kingdoms (and let me tell you, I DO), IMO, the Guide to the River Kingdoms falls short of what I wanted it to be. Why, because I want more. I don't want 1 page on Hymbria. I want 10-15. I don't want 3 pages on Gralton, I want 30. I wanted to pour over pages and pages of the raiding groups similar to the Stag Lord. I wanted to details on nomadic towns that moved around from place to place when raiders or monsters came. I wanted more than a paragraph on the hamlet of Saad or two sentences on the Nameless Secret society of Gralton. I know I am being unrealistically greedy in my desire for RK material, but that book just gives me a taste. I don't want a taste. I want a 7-course meal.
I had a freelancer working on something similar to these for Shadowsfall but the freelancer went quiet about 4 months ago.
I don't really get what the OP is talking about.
I have a good chunk of the campaign setting books, probably nearly all of the ones that are not 3.5. Rulebook wise I have all the bestiaries and the NPC book, but I am still missing the two biggest rule expansions Ultimate Magic and Combat. So yeah, I love flavor, especially since I tend to use the books as much for inspiration in my world building as I do for any actual gaming.
But honestly...Paizo puts out a fantastic quantity as is of Campaign Setting material, and other than a few feats/items/or creature statblocks, there is comparatively little rules content (certainly I would consider anything in this line as resulting in "bloat".
I just don't think it's realistic to get the book the OP is wanting (which I admit I have never seen)
1) Large chunks of Golarion are just not developed yet.
2) There is comparatively little interest in extensive development of every single hamlet or forest glade (Honestly, I would buy a nation or city book, but a whole book devoted to Ravenmoor?)
3) People like having blank areas on the map to play with
4) It's comparatively easy to to plug and play one small village for another. and probably not hugely difficult to do the same for many cities.
5) Crunch draws in buyers that might not otherwise purchase books.
I think if you want a truly indepth look at life in Golarion, there are plenty of outside sources. You lamented the lack of books for gaming in medieval settings, but have you considered all the nonfiction books (or fantasy novels set in medieval settings) out there covering that topic? It really doesn't take much imagination or work to intergrate stuff from non gaming sources into a game world, if you are not interested in crunch.
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So a better question I pose to you, Desna's Avatar (so you're a chaotic good Mothman?) is are you looking for a large book that covers more in depth on the whole world of Golarion in general? I myself have not read Ed Greenwood Presents.. but I get the general jist that it covers a multitude of areas in more depth. The reason I came to this conclusion is while many of the books are crunch and fluff in certain ratios, I used to own Lands of the Linnorm Kings and it was about 90% fluff vs. some crunch (and it must not have been much, as I don't remember it). I assume the other region specific books do much of this as well. So it goes to say that you may be looking for a larger book with much of this information consolidated with new material and no crunch. Am I correct?
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I think there is a lot of good Golarion material.
But...
I do think the bloat is a problem - for PFS. I can restrict the game if I am a GM, but NOT if I am GMing PFS, where specifically sets of rules are allowed. If a PC is built from the approved list, the PC is in.
Agreed! But then...that's not what I'm talking about. The guide I referred to was released as part of 4th Ed. D&D as is called, "Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms: A Dungeons & Dragons...
Sure, but that's a VERY limited one shot nearly all fluff no crunch book. How many more did they publish like that? In 3rd they also had Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun, , and so forth, etc, etc- all of which added greatly to the "CRUNCH!" so much so that many of those books are banned outright in most 3rd ed games.
Fluff books don't sell well enough. Now, yes, I enjoy Golarion, and would also like to see more fluff for that world. Stuff that isn't an Adventure.
The release of that book was presumably also influenced by the fact that it occurred in the somewhat peculiar situation where WotC are not producing any hardcopy game supplements (other than reprints).
I daresay they were testing the waters in some sense, given their design goals for D&D:Next being the modular 'game you can play no matter what edition you like'. Presumably if they're to meet that goal, their flavor material is going to have to be relatively system agnostic going forward.
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I'm not looking for every single minute detail to be fleshed out, but over the past 2 months, I've had to develop a dozen towns in the Inner Sea on my own, because there is close to zero info on them out there.
For instance (I know James hates this example), I searched for an hour for information concerning Whistledown. There's even a product put out by Paizo that I'm sure most of you are familiar with called "Terror At Whistledown". It's good stuff, buuuuuut, there's hardly any information on Whistledown. It would have been great to have some pages dedicated to the history of the town, it's people, some fleshed out locations, inhabitants, etc.
It would save this GM tons of time, and time is money. It's worth paying for well-developed material which will enable me to devote my time to things other than developing all of these locations, inhabitants, history, etc. I enjoy that, but it can get a bit tedious, especially when one is on a gaming deadline :)
See as a GM this what I love to do. Build a place...it's people, it culture, local traditions, colorful NPC, it's history, etc. Even as a player (with GM approval) I often go into this level of detail with my character's background. To me this is not a 'waste of time'..I do this in my head constantly anyway.
So personaly I am the exact opposite of you...I think Pazio should be more wary of campaign bloat than rules bloat. I can deal with somebody who found the ultimate combo in the rules. What really annoys me at the gaming table is when a player gets all lore nazi.
Sadly that is why I don't run the FR anymore. I spend this time to create a beautiful village in a area. And spend the entire night argueing with a player who kept saying..."But in book x this area is ruled by orcs."
Anyway just a different perspective on this for you to consider.
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I should add I don't think Pazio is close to over developing Golarion by a long shot. I am happy with their release schedule of rules and Golarion lore.
I just think their is a dangerous flip side to what Desna's Avatar is proposing.
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I do think the bloat is a problem - for PFS. I can restrict the game if I am a GM, but NOT if I am GMing PFS, where specifically sets of rules are allowed. If a PC is built from the approved list, the PC is in.
I can agree to an extent, but as a player I have photo copied every page of non-core/APG rules I'm using. This is required, and if a player doesn't have it then, as a GM, you're allowed to not let them play. PFS does not require a GM to know all this information, or even close: it is the player's responsibility. I find the additional rules' bans on PFS legal things to be very balanced, and don't really worry when someone comes to the table properly equipped to show where there character abilities came from.
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I love the fluff of Golarion, and would never hesitate to buy more - but I like rules. If anything Paizo doesn't have enough rules out for me, since I'm constantly going to third party and old 3.5 content to build the characters I want. I'm happy with both, and see no reason for it not to continue. People can use the rules without the additional setting information...or the setting without the newer rules.
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I would like history.
Understaning how everything interacts gives me story ideas.
People/personalities/hopes/dreams.....
Even a summation of the world as it stands, using all the previous stuff in all the old modulues or books would be a fantastic idea.
Just saying...
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Yeah, I just flat-out disagree with the OP. And I'm NOT a WOW-player (or a player of any MMOs). I never even played Magic the Gathering. I look forward with rabid urgency to every new character option that comes out so that I can read it and find one of my characters to apply it to. It has nothing to do with wanting to "pwn" anyone, I just enjoy the character-building aspect of the game.
The Golarion-focused content just isn't as interesting to me (except where it concerns the Iconic characters, all of whom I love dearly. This is why I get the comics).
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A setting should be like a home. Filled with set pieces and decoration so it is not empty, but open enough for you to move in. It's a balance, and Paizo is working to maintain that balance.
You can't expect them to have a full setting book with thirty years of world building after six years
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All I'm looking for is something that really describes the setting of Golarion, in depth--all of the people, places, events, history, etc. without any additional classes, feats, traits, monsters, classes, etc...or a very limited amount of this.
This is EXACTLY what The Inner Sea World Guide . There is only a very limited amount of crunch in it.
I'm frankly surprised that anybody is taking you seriously any more. While I share a trepidation about the basic rules system growing so that you have to fight off players who always want to use new stuff, or so that you're faced with things that could have been better if only you'd known the new rules were coming, it's apparent that your position about the thinness of Golarion setting support is not backed up by reality.
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I really loved the small FR books which were called "Volo's Guide to "X"".
Those were awesome. Such books for Golarion - instant buy!
See here, for what I mean.
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'game you can play no matter what edition you like'. Presumably if they're to meet that goal, their flavor material is going to have to be relatively system agnostic going forward.
A huge presumption.... If there's anything we've learned watching editions come and go, it's that no matter how cool the new stuff is, there are always people who are going to like the old stuff better. There are still people who play OD&D (pre-AD&D), although I suspect they are few and far between. It's not nearly as hard to find 1e and 2e players. Yeah, some of them may be converted to Next, but I predict very few are. And, no matter what, 4e is still going to have its adherents ten years from now (especially since Next looks like it's going to be quite different from 4e).
Are there any companies out there that have made success out of selling pure setting material? I suspect there are some small ones, but almost everybody seems to have at least some kind of system with it. Harn was a world that was much more about setting material than crunch, but even it had its Harnmaster system.
Paizo was more or less like this during the 3e era, as they were selling much more setting material than crunch, and it was only when 4e (and thus Pathfinder) came about that they became known for a rules set.
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Despite how much I love the River Kingdoms (and let me tell you, I DO), IMO, the Guide to the River Kingdoms falls short of what I wanted it to be. Why, because I want more. I don't want 1 page on Hymbria. I want 10-15. I don't want 3 pages on Gralton, I want 30. I wanted to pour over pages and pages of the raiding groups similar to the Stag Lord. I wanted to details on nomadic towns that moved around from place to place when raiders or monsters came. I wanted more than a paragraph on the hamlet of Saad or two sentences on the Nameless Secret society of Gralton. I know I am being unrealistically greedy in my desire for RK material, but that book just gives me a taste. I don't want a taste. I want a 7-course meal.
I had a freelancer working on something similar to these for Shadowsfall but the freelancer went quiet about 4 months ago.
I have to mostly agree here, and with the OP in general. Development of new classes, feats and spells seems to occur at an almost breakneck speed to keep up with the demand for new content. I understand that and that it keeps Paizo in business and making money, which is perfectly fine.
The problem is coming out with full books of good rules content becomes harder and harder with each new book. Mistakes and unforeseen combinations that break the rules in unanticipated ways increase. Bloat can and does creep in.
I think it would be most helpful to perhaps, incrementally trim back the amount of new rules content needed in a book. Or in a year in general and replace it with a bit more fluff. Not to say Paizo needs to stop printing new rules, but maybe cut back on it 5 or 10 percent and replace that with fluff or even artwork. This would ease back on the demand for new content, and allow for stronger editing of rules content and less chance for subpar elements to slip through.
More fluff specific books, would also be nice. I must say that Mister McCoy's post touched a note with me. Having a few more majority fluff books with some rules content that goes reaaaaly in depth would be awesome!
Say, instead of "Ultimate Combat" or "Ultimate Magic" you instead have...wait, for it..."Ultimate Village"! A book about a few different villages that have not been touched on in other works in different parts of Golarion. Going real in depth on each on, with NPC's, some plot hooks , some stats here and there, a few monsters...but mostly about what it is like to be born, live in, and die there. Our heroes come from some place, and too often that is quickly forgotten as they set off on the road. While epic battles are memorable, dealing with a local menace and solving local problems can be just as rewarding as a huge, world spanning campaign! Of course, these villages could be taken and dropped into any campaign with a little work, so while Golarion specific, there would be great versatility.
Just a bit of a harebrained scheme, but I'm not a fan of offering criticism without at the very least attempting to give a suggestion on how to help solve the problem that is posited as existing.
Why don't you make up your own fluff?
Every time I see this stuff a little piece of me dies.
The sheer amount of close-minded people discourages such madness.
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tl;dr
Can't we just have some Numeria books already?
:D
... I like rules. If anything Paizo doesn't have enough rules out for me, since I'm constantly going to third party and old 3.5 content to build the characters I want. I'm happy with both, and see no reason for it not to continue. People can use the rules without the additional setting information...or the setting without the newer rules.
This. What you call bloat I call more options. Heck, one of my latest personal projects has been going back and finding my group's favorite 3.5 classes - base and prestige - and converting them to archetypes so they're readily available and easily integrated into PF games.
I also don't play in Golarion. I don't begrudge those who do their setting info and lore, let them have it - Paizo lives and breathes on their setting's story and the APs, it makes perfect sense for much of their product to support this. But for those of us who don't play there, don't take away the stuff we do have that can be used everywhere - our classes, our feats, our spells, our bestiaries, and the new options available to players and GMs that isn't limited by the world in which you choose to play.
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"Ultimate Village"! A book about a few different villages that have not been touched on in other works in different parts of Golarion. Going real in depth on each on, with NPC's, some plot hooks , some stats here and there, a few monsters...but mostly about what it is like to be born, live in, and die there.
Try some of the following:
- Cities of Golarion
- Guide to the River Kingdoms
- City of Strangers
- The Inner Sea World Guide
- Magminar, City of Monuments
- Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter
- ...and numerous others
What I don't get is the "too much rules" crowd here keeps claiming that Paizo should not be publishing rules, and instead publishing... things that they have published. ??? Are you paying attention?
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"Ultimate Village"! A book about a few different villages that have not been touched on in other works in different parts of Golarion. Going real in depth on each on, with NPC's, some plot hooks , some stats here and there, a few monsters...but mostly about what it is like to be born, live in, and die there.Try some of the following:
- Cities of Golarion
- Guide to the River Kingdoms
- City of Strangers
- The Inner Sea World Guide
- Magminar, City of Monuments
- Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter
- ...and numerous others
What I don't get is the "too much rules" crowd here keeps claiming that Paizo should not be publishing rules, and instead publishing... things that they have published. ??? Are you paying attention?
Apparently, some people are not. Paying attention, that is.
All I simply stated was that perhaps a slight trimming back on the stream of new rules and replacing that 5 or 10 percent with fluff or artwork, not for Paizo to never ever publish a new rule. Then offered a suggestion that perhaps a rules light but fluff heavy book to follow along a bit behind Ultimate Campaign would be something like Ultimate Village, which I pointed out was just an off the top of my head suggestion.
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The op makes an interesting point i like extra skills and feats etc but think that they are overlooking the need for more generic campaign information
Which can be used in any setting like a book detailing a few towns or villages for general use .
Or one which has a few random side track adventures or one covering a few random military or religious orders
Just some stuff that anyone can fit into there campaigns to add colour to the game with a minimum of effort but that is not area or settimg specific
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stream of new rules and replacing that 5 or 10 percent with fluff or artwork, not for Paizo to never ever publish a new rule. Then offered a suggestion that perhaps a rules light but fluff heavy book to follow along a bit behind Ultimate Campaign would be something like Ultimate Village, which I pointed out was just an off the top of my head suggestion.
Your quote here is quite different from 'instead of "Ultimate Combat" or "Ultimate Magic"' publish setting material... which is what you said before.
It's also kind of odd to object to 5 or 10 percent crunch if you're now claiming you're already getting 90 or 95% of what you want.
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Dear Paizo,
Please kill off your successful business model by stopping releasing your most popular products.
Also, please turn Golarion into the Forgotten Realms. We need extensive canonical details so that no GM ever has room to develop any part of the setting.
Thanks,
OP
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Paizo is devoting it's limited resources to developing more adventures...
I realize your beef is with the many game mechanics produced by Paizo but I can't help but wonder about your mention of adventures. Is it your opinion that the adventures produced by Paizo don't add much lore to the game? It's my experience that the adventure paths and the modules are among the best sources for in-world lore on Golarion* and I'm surprised to see adventures lumped in with the game mechanics in this context.
Look at the content of the setting books they've put out. It's filled with...again...feats, traits, character paths, spells, etc.
As for the setting books being filled with game mechanics, I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. You have a point when it comes the Player Companion line but most books in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line are fluff-heavy. Exceptions exist, of course, such as Paths of Prestige, but there's plenty of fluff to find in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting books. That's just my own assessment on the topic, of course, and your mileage may vary. :)
*) This is not a weakness of the setting books but rather a strength of the adventures, in my opinion. As I mentioned above, I feel that the setting books, especially the books in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line, offer plenty of fluff material. The modules and adventure paths just allow for more detail on the relevant fluff, such as a region or a village.
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Which can be used in any setting like a book detailing a few towns or villages for general use .
Or one which has a few random side track adventures or one covering a few random military or religious orders
Just some stuff that anyone can fit into there campaigns to add colour to the game with a minimum of effort but that is not area or settimg specific
Paizo is probably better off publishing specific Golarion stuff. This kind of thing is great for 3pp, who can publish Pathfinder-compatible stuff, but not specific Golarion stuff (I believe) under the license Paizo gives. And, indeed, you can find some of this kind of thing, for instance, see Raging Swan's Village Backdrops series.
Thanks for the link will give it a proper investigate when i finish work cheers
stream of new rules and replacing that 5 or 10 percent with fluff or artwork, not for Paizo to never ever publish a new rule. Then offered a suggestion that perhaps a rules light but fluff heavy book to follow along a bit behind Ultimate Campaign would be something like Ultimate Village, which I pointed out was just an off the top of my head suggestion.Your quote here is quite different from 'instead of "Ultimate Combat" or "Ultimate Magic"' publish setting material... which is what you said before.
It's also kind of odd to object to 5 or 10 percent crunch if you're now claiming you're already getting 90 or 95% of what you want.
I give up.
Before insulting others, perhaps you should read the thread fully. I've stated many times that I DO make up my own fluff. However, this is very taxing in terms of my time and energy, and I would gladly pay others to develop some quality material here that I could plug and play.The sheer amount of close-minded people discourages such madness.Why don't you make up your own fluff?
Every time I see this stuff a little piece of me dies.
I actually PRAISE you for doing your own fluff. I just hope your player group also accepts it.
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However, this is 2013. Print isn't really necessary or important. PDF sales are robust.
And as soon as they can sell PDFs through local game stores they will. It's hard getting them into the display cases tho.
It would be a relatively cheap, easy thing for Paizo, or anyone else to release world-specific guides, say 32 pages for larger cities, 16 pages for towns, which would be released in PDF form only.
I think Vic or Jason or someone will be along shortly to disabuse you of the notion that adding an extra PDF a month would be cheap or easy just because they don't have to pay to have it printed. You are ignoring the cost of writing, editing, art, layout, and publishing.
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Stuff about PDFs being "cheap and easy".
Pray tell, who do you propose to write, develop, layout, make art and maps, and generally make these little PDFs considering the fact that Paizo is stretched pretty thin working on everything they're already working on.
Just because actual PDFs are prevalent and popular doesn't make the process of publishing them any easier or cheaper than their hard copy counterparts.
The point about FR being old and Golarion being new IS relevant. You want this awesome fluffy book RIGHT NOW that is similar to a product that has a foundation of thirty years of experience. I am sure there are a myriad of other factors that have allowed WotC to publish that book which are not present at Paizo.
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@ Desna's Angel,
No sarcasm in this question. May I ask what tires you out and exhausts you the most?
Is it encounter design? Or is literally the small background details that go into a piece of setting?
The reason I ask is because I remember some of the early really strong Forgotten Realms stuff. (I took a break from the game right about the zenith of Dark Sun). Speaking for myself, I always felt like I was not being given enough background, but often I didn't know what to do with what I had. I didn't know how to translate it into an adventure. So at that time I found myself complaining, "I don't have enough information". I somewhat lacked the self-insight that what I really didn't know was how to design an encounter with what information I did have, and string them together into an adventure, and then into a campaign.
(Decades later I figured it out, but that is neither here nor there).
I'm not assuming that is the case for you, but I am curious if that might be part of what tires you out so much?
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I think that overworking the Paizo staff is the easy way to writer's block. They are slowly building the info of the world (thats why 30 years of a setting is important, you don't just create a book like the Forgotten one from nothing, he had 30 years of material to draw upon).
They arent hiding Golarion data inside a safe in the Paizo HQ (besides what happened to Aroden), they are writing what they publish. Golarion is a extremelly new world, there are places that we fans are hurting to know more, but we have to be patient so they can deliver the books with the quality it deserves. I dont think they are diverting resoucers to rules material, not all designers are fluff oriented and too much hand on something can really spoil it all ( DC comics, i am looking at you).
Also, please turn Golarion into the Forgotten Realms. We need extensive canonical details
Please do - my years of playing FR shows me that Golarion would be better for it. By leaps and bounds.
so that no GM ever has room to develop any part of the setting.
Pffft. As if.
*shrug* One slag deserves another. :D
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Would it make a profit?
If not, i sort of understand.
If it does, why not?
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For the Love of Desna, please, PLEASE stop releasing an endless stream of additional spells, races, classes, feats, archetypes, etc. Talk about BLOAT!No.
Oh my gods, did your regular avatars eat too much hamburgers or what happened?
Is the OP a GM who has "Munchkinesque" players? Then rule out the expansion books.
Is the OP a player who feels like you need to keep pace with the "power creep"? (Firstly, I don't think there has been much power creep -- I haven't seen Core Rulebook options consistently outshone by PCs based on the expansions.) Then talk with your fellow players about limiting your options. Or maybe you don't like the playstyle the mere existence of option books engenders in your group?
I rather like the existence of many "crunch" options. As for all the Golarion setting material out there, there's a lot of it I don't care to read or incorporate. The same should be true the other way around.
It seems like the problem is not with Paizo, but with how the OP or his/her group is handling the mere existence of more options.
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Not to far along into 2e my circles began calling it the Forgettable Realms. Elminster became Elmonster. The Seven Sisters became the Seven Babysitters. It was ridiculous.
I really dislike this sentiment. Those are in total eight mages ( not even that, some of the Seven Sisters were heavily multiclassed or not arcane casters at all ). Sure, they are powerful, but they can only do so much.
This whole "Wah, wah, why isn't Elminster on this?" sentiment is just people being b#*$$y that their characters ain't at a level themselves where they can slap around other people at will.
I've seen few people complain that most really high-level casters in Golarion are evil and only there to be killed by the party when they reach the last module of an AP. More consistency in your b%%#@ing, people!