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Hello everyone. My friends and I are starting a game where all the PCs are Sorcerors. Are we insane? Well, I won't rule that out. But I think it's possible to make a pretty awesome party with only Sorcerors.
Benefits: So much Charisma (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Use Magic Device all over the place)! Knowing we're all Sorcerors we can choose our spells to not have much overlap and therefore increase our overall utility as a group. There are enough different builds to make this diverse enough to be viable.
Drawbacks: Looooooow HP. No Int or Wis-based skills.
My thoughts on party makeup: We have four players, and I plan to suggest that we have 1 Blasty type (Half-Orc Draconic/Primal Crossblooded? ALL THE FIRE!), 1 Enchantment-focused (Kitsune Fey (Sylvan), with animal companion for added awesome), 1 Summoning-focused (Abyssal. Pitblooded Tiefling?), and 1 Melee (??? Bloodline with Claws plus Toothy Half-Orc? 2-Handed Weapons (Half-Orc again)? Race with a Natural weapon (Changeling? Tiefling?))
Can four Sorcerors make a go of it in this crazy world... and then dominate it?
Questions I hope to have answered: Does anyone have any information on good builds along the lines of the ones I mentioned above? Any other builds I should consider? Is it worth it to have someone go Sage for Int-based skills, and/or 1 go Empyreal for Wis-based skills?
Edit: No multiclassing (Prestige Classes are okay), and we're starting at Level 4
If you're going to test the concept, I wouldn't water it down with wis and int based sorc builds. If it were me I'd go plain vanilla as much as possible to prove the point.
As far as skills go, there are very few that can't be improved upon with a spell or two. Use Magic Device and perception are about the only two skills that I would consider critical for an all sorcerer party, and sorcerers get enough skill points to max them out.
Interesting challenge.
I think they can totally rock, but only if they take tactics into consideration when making the builds. For instance, if you're going to have a save-or-die specialist, then two others should know a couple debuff spells. Having one character be a part time debuffer to set up for the enchanter wouldn't hurt. And of course, the enchanter should be able to fill a different role at need. You have to balance the specialization carefully or else everyone dies the first time you meet something that wasn't considered during character creation.
A melee sorcerer build, especially at low level, is going to be incredibly hard to pull off well. I recommend a summoning focused sorcerer instead. Portable meat shields and melee specialists.
In a group of four sorcerers, I think everyone should know some blast spells. It's situational, but some encounters will get completely shut down by 4 scorching rays/fireballs/whatevers in one turn.
There are probably a teamwork feat or two that would work exceptionally well for this group. Be sure to look into it.
Well, here is an alternative: you might consider one character as the Razmiran priest archetype (Inner Sea World Guide) or the Razmiran priest prestige classes (Inner Sea Magic) - they fake some healing abilities, sort of. They are called Fake Priests on the d20pfsrd site.
If traps are a concern, maybe the Seeker Archetype (Pathfinder Society Field Guide) or a Kobold with the kobold bloodline.
Other fun races? Nagaji, the elemental (Oread, Sylph, Undine and especially Ifrit)
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I like the all Alchemist group better.
All rogue group and play Ocean's 11.
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One of my favorite Sorcerers that i have played is an Aasimar with the Shadow Bloodline. It makes constructs and hides in there shadows and uses shadow walk to move from construct to construct for better positioning.
If ur interested in a melee sorcerer is is possible but takes a bit of work to do correctly. The melee sorcerer would be focused around natural attacks. U would have to be a Scion of Humanity Aasimar with the Racial Heritage feat for Ratfolk. The Heritage feat will allow u to pick up the Sharpclaw feat that will grant u 2 1d4 claw attacks. Aasimar is for the Metallic Wings feat that grants 2 1d4 wing attacks. Magic items needed would also be Ring of Rat Fangs for 1d4 bite, Wyvern Cloak for 1d6 sting, and Helm of the Mammoth Lord for 1d6 gore attack along with a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fist. Ur bloodline will have to be Infernal with the Pit-Touched Wildblood with the Eldritch Heritage feats for Abyssal Bloodline. Pit-Touched will grant a +6 inherent bonus to Con and Abyssal does the same but for Str. Spells to consider would be the Form of the Dragon spells, Draconic Reservoir, Elemental Aura, and any melee buff spell.
Well if you're going to prestige out eventually the melee sorcerer should be dragonic, so he can go dragon disciple at level six, if not I'd got Pit touched for the constitution bonus and then pick up the Skill focus planes, Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) to grab the strength bonus or just go cross-blooded. Don't depend on the claws, when you're concentrating on pumping tank stats you won't have too high of a charisma score, which means 3+chr rounds/day of claws isn't too many, you're actually better off with stuff like beast form or monstrous physique for natural attacks.
The sage bloodline with its intelligence based casting would make a nice skill-whore/item crafter.
The first level spell gravity bow is vary nice for ranged, especially when you add in the second level spell reloading hand, you suddenly can use a heavy crossbow every round and it dose 2d8 damage, or even better, if you’re an elf and thus proficient with the composite longbow, take the abyssal bloodline for the str buff and go that route. You could be a summoner/archer.
once past lvl 5 you wil be awsome
but i think lvl's 1-3 are gonna be awfully borring!
I think this sounds like a blast! I once ran a all theif group back in AD&D days it was a blast. but the GM wasn't all that creative, I would love to run that again!
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I would also recommend Dragon Disciple for melee sorcerer. It doesn't come into it's own right away, but at higher levels it can really shine. I've tried out a couple Dragon Disciple builds and each time have been a monster (and have had the Magus player ask if the DD is overpowered).
Hello everyone. My friends and I are starting a game where all the PCs are Sorcerors. Are we insane? Well, I won't rule that out. But I think it's possible to make a pretty awesome party with only Sorcerors.
Benefits: So much Charisma (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Use Magic Device all over the place)! Knowing we're all Sorcerors we can choose our spells to not have much overlap and therefore increase our overall utility as a group. There are enough different builds to make this diverse enough to be viable.
Drawbacks: Looooooow HP. No Int or Wis-based skills.
My thoughts on party makeup: We have four players, and I plan to suggest that we have 1 Blasty type (Half-Orc Draconic/Primal Crossblooded? ALL THE FIRE!), 1 Enchantment-focused (Kitsune Fey (Sylvan), with animal companion for added awesome), 1 Summoning-focused (Abyssal. Pitblooded Tiefling?), and 1 Melee (??? Bloodline with Claws plus Toothy Half-Orc? 2-Handed Weapons (Half-Orc again)? Race with a Natural weapon (Changeling? Tiefling?))
Can four Sorcerors make a go of it in this crazy world... and then dominate it?
Questions I hope to have answered: Does anyone have any information on good builds along the lines of the ones I mentioned above? Any other builds I should consider? Is it worth it to have someone go Sage for Int-based skills, and/or 1 go Empyreal for Wis-based skills?
Edit: No multiclassing (Prestige Classes are okay), and we're starting at Level 4
I have two stellar Sorcerer builds - one is a Kitsune with the Fey/Sylvan bloodlines who takes a level dip of Oracle (Nature) to take Friend to Animals though that's more for RP than a necessity. The other is a Human Sorcerer (Draconic bloodline) who goes 12 levels of Sorcerer and 8 levels of Dragon Disciple while taking the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Orc Bloodline (simply reflavored as additonal aspects of his draconic heritage).
The Dragon Sorcerer only misses out on 2 levels of casting and retains his spell potency through Magical Knack. Eventually he takes Spell Perfection: Firesnake for some nice Quickened, Maximizing and Dazing action. He's also a melee terror when he wants to be - ever consider Form of the Dragon + Transformation? Talk about en fuego. That route is highly reccomended over the Cross-blooded option as you gain severely gimped spell progression for what amounts to a relatively minor benefit.
Let me know if youre interested in either of the builds.
Thinking on this...
If I were to do this, I think I would go with the following arrangement:
Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey or Serpentine bloodline)
Incredibly potent enchantment spells can both nullify dangerous foes and can even gather potential meatshields in the form of charmed or dominated allies. Secondary role would be as a buffer for the group and summoned/charmed allies. For this I reccomend the Arcane Bloodline and Spell Perfection: Hold Monster. High dexterity and the ability to cast Greater Invisibility as an SLA also makes her the perfect scout and Realistic Likeness has tons of possibilities even at low level.
Human Sorcerer (Draconic bloodline - Red dragon) / Dragon Disciple
Five levels of Sorcerer, eight levels of Dragon Disciple and then seven mor elevels of sorcerer. Eldritch Heritage for the Orc Bloodline for additional strength bonuses and the Power of Giants ability. Take one really good fire spell every level you can and then use the rest of those slots for buffs, force damage spells and useful things like Teleport. This character could serve as the 'up-front' force or the blaster with equal ease, making liberal use of spells like Transformation and Form of the Dragon as well as his three natural attacks. I'd reccomend Spell Perfection: Fire Snake for this one with Dazing, Maximized and Quickened options.
Human Sorcerer (Abyssal bloodline)
This will be your summoner-type, and I reccomend in addition to Summons that he take the Pit line of spells and some mass buffs like Haste. The Primal Elemental bloodline would be an ideal Eldritch Heritage option for him, granting a movement power but most especially the added bonus to damage for summoned creatures. Fire would be the instinctive first choice, but I'm thinking Earth or Air would be better to compliment your Dragon Disciple.
After those three, it'd be difficult to come up with a good role for the fourth, especially considering that what you really need now is some sort of healer. Absent that, the Shadow Bloodline might be a good option, perhaps as a Halfling or Gnome. It will give you a very stealthy character you could arm with necromancy spells, shadow spells and some illusions. Played creatively such a character could be very potent and bring something to the table the other three don't.
Hello everyone. My friends and I are starting a game where all the PCs are Sorcerors. Are we insane? Well, I won't rule that out. But I think it's possible to make a pretty awesome party with only Sorcerors.
Benefits: So much Charisma (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Use Magic Device all over the place)! Knowing we're all Sorcerors we can choose our spells to not have much overlap and therefore increase our overall utility as a group. There are enough different builds to make this diverse enough to be viable.
Drawbacks: Looooooow HP. No Int or Wis-based skills.
My thoughts on party makeup: We have four players, and I plan to suggest that we have 1 Blasty type (Half-Orc Draconic/Primal Crossblooded? ALL THE FIRE!), 1 Enchantment-focused (Kitsune Fey (Sylvan), with animal companion for added awesome), 1 Summoning-focused (Abyssal. Pitblooded Tiefling?), and 1 Melee (??? Bloodline with Claws plus Toothy Half-Orc? 2-Handed Weapons (Half-Orc again)? Race with a Natural weapon (Changeling? Tiefling?))
Can four Sorcerors make a go of it in this crazy world... and then dominate it?
Questions I hope to have answered: Does anyone have any information on good builds along the lines of the ones I mentioned above? Any other builds I should consider? Is it worth it to have someone go Sage for Int-based skills, and/or 1 go Empyreal for Wis-based skills?
Edit: No multiclassing (Prestige Classes are okay), and we're starting at Level 4
One oddity about four sorcerers is that certain spells that are often underwhelming are pretty amazing if you can spam them in rapid succession. Sure, 21 damage with a fireball isn't that amazing at 6th level with a save for half, but throw 4 of them and almost nothing will be alive. Spam magic missiles to rip apart almost anything level-appropriate in quick order.
Spam magic missiles to rip apart almost anything level-appropriate in quick order.
Heh - imagine if each took the Toppling metamagic feat, and perhaps Magical Lineage as well. They'd have everything on their backs every round.
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As I said we will have four players, so I can't guarantee they will be guided by my suggestions. They may have concepts in their heads they have their hearts set on but if I have some good builds in mind I can fill in the gaps. That being said the Sylvan Sorceror appeals to me, as does the OMG FIRE BLASTOR! I am not against Eldritch Heritage shenanigans, however, so those suggestions are excellent.
I'm definitely going to recommend we all take at least 1 blasty-type spell per level and let the rest of our spell selection be divided between whatever's most optimal for our character and whatever's most flavourful.
Sage uses Int as the Sorc's casting stat. It will fix you lack of Int skills.
As I said we will have four players, so I can't guarantee they will be guided by my suggestions. They may have concepts in their heads they have their hearts set on but if I have some good builds in mind I can fill in the gaps. That being said the Sylvan Sorceror appeals to me, as does the OMG FIRE BLASTOR! I am not against Eldritch Heritage shenanigans, however, so those suggestions are excellent.
I'm definitely going to recommend we all take at least 1 blasty-type spell per level and let the rest of our spell selection be divided between whatever's most optimal for our character and whatever's most flavourful.
Just stay away from the Cross-blooded Sorcerer - its almost always a trap.
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Just stay away from the Cross-blooded Sorcerer - its almost always a trap.As I said we will have four players, so I can't guarantee they will be guided by my suggestions. They may have concepts in their heads they have their hearts set on but if I have some good builds in mind I can fill in the gaps. That being said the Sylvan Sorceror appeals to me, as does the OMG FIRE BLASTOR! I am not against Eldritch Heritage shenanigans, however, so those suggestions are excellent.
I'm definitely going to recommend we all take at least 1 blasty-type spell per level and let the rest of our spell selection be divided between whatever's most optimal for our character and whatever's most flavourful.
I enjoy Crossblooded Sorcerer as long as its a Human with its favored ability.
I enjoy Crossblooded Sorcerer as long as its a Human with its favored ability.Just stay away from the Cross-blooded Sorcerer - its almost always a trap.As I said we will have four players, so I can't guarantee they will be guided by my suggestions. They may have concepts in their heads they have their hearts set on but if I have some good builds in mind I can fill in the gaps. That being said the Sylvan Sorceror appeals to me, as does the OMG FIRE BLASTOR! I am not against Eldritch Heritage shenanigans, however, so those suggestions are excellent.
I'm definitely going to recommend we all take at least 1 blasty-type spell per level and let the rest of our spell selection be divided between whatever's most optimal for our character and whatever's most flavourful.
You'll get more known, sure, but ouch - how slowly do you advance in spell levels? 5th level caster before you gain access to 2nd level spells? 10th level caster with only 4th level spells? I just haven't found a bloodline combination worth that kind of power loss...
In my opinion if your guys are going down the road of all sorcerer's make sure you can fill what I call the 4 categories of a party.
Healer
Support
Skills
Offensive specialist (Damage/tank)
For Healer, having a character follow the path of a priest of Razmir can be useful as they become effective in using divine healing items. while its own healing abilities are temporary, in further levels of the Prestige class with two uses of the ability it become real.
For Skills, look to a prestige class that can counter or use traps and locks such as the kobold bloodline or the seeker archetype. it may not be as effective as a rogue or skill based class but it can get the job done.
For Offensive, go for the dragon disciple. it's benefits towards the claws and fang abilities, flight, and bonuses on con and str attributes can make your character have quite a damaging effect.
for Support, look for a bloodline or prestige classes that help give bonuses towards buffs and conjuration spells. many bloodlines can fill this role but remember this character will be needed to make other characters become more effective and give your party a better chance to succeed.
in the end, your party is going to have a tough time in the beginning, but once you start stacking the levels and advancing your abilities the group will become very effective. just remember teamwork is important because if one of your members goes Leroy Jenkins in the game, your party will fall apart very quickly.
Team tactics are going to be unique. Your group needs to sit down early on and figure out how to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. Traditional roles and responsibilities will need to be reexamined. You're going to find a few tag team tricks that will be big strengths. Four fireballs is an obvious one, but there's also the pit spell and multiple hydrolic pushes combination. Teamwork and communication are always important, but for your group they will be key.
Thinking on this...
If I were to do this, I think I would go with the following arrangement:
Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey or Serpentine bloodline)
Incredibly potent enchantment spells can both nullify dangerous foes and can even gather potential meatshields in the form of charmed or dominated allies. Secondary role would be as a buffer for the group and summoned/charmed allies. For this I reccomend the Arcane Bloodline and Spell Perfection: Hold Monster. High dexterity and the ability to cast Greater Invisibility as an SLA also makes her the perfect scout and Realistic Likeness has tons of possibilities even at low level.Human Sorcerer (Draconic bloodline - Red dragon) / Dragon Disciple
Five levels of Sorcerer, eight levels of Dragon Disciple and then seven mor elevels of sorcerer. Eldritch Heritage for the Orc Bloodline for additional strength bonuses and the Power of Giants ability. Take one really good fire spell every level you can and then use the rest of those slots for buffs, force damage spells and useful things like Teleport. This character could serve as the 'up-front' force or the blaster with equal ease, making liberal use of spells like Transformation and Form of the Dragon as well as his three natural attacks. I'd reccomend Spell Perfection: Fire Snake for this one with Dazing, Maximized and Quickened options.Human Sorcerer (Abyssal bloodline)
This will be your summoner-type, and I reccomend in addition to Summons that he take the Pit line of spells and some mass buffs like Haste. The Primal Elemental bloodline would be an ideal Eldritch Heritage option for him, granting a movement power but most especially the added bonus to damage for summoned creatures. Fire would be the instinctive first choice, but I'm thinking Earth or Air would be better to compliment your Dragon Disciple.After those three, it'd be difficult to come up with a good role for the fourth, especially considering that what you really need now is some sort of healer. Absent that, the Shadow...
My thoughts mirror this almost exactly.
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Don't take Sage or Empyreal just to have Int- or Wis- based skills. What skills are you even worried about taking? All Int gets you is Craft, Appraise, Linguistics, and the Knowledges. The Knowledges are cool, but you can't make them untrained anyway, so having high Int won't help you unless it gets you 10 skill points per level.
Wisdom gets Perception, Sense Motive, Heal and Survival so it's a little more useful, but by around level 5 your ranks and class skill bonus overshadow your ability bonus anyway.
Most bloodlines let you pick Skill Focus as a bonus feat anyway. Between the four of you, you should be able to cover whatever skills you need without bending your bloodline to them. Sage and Empyreal only really exist so that you can multiclass sorcerer with a character that dumped Charisma for a different mental stat.
Don't take Sage or Empyreal just to have Int- or Wis- based skills. What skills are you even worried about taking? All Int gets you is Craft, Appraise, Linguistics, and the Knowledges. The Knowledges are cool, but you can't make them untrained anyway, so having high Int won't help you unless it gets you 10 skill points per level.
Wisdom gets Perception, Sense Motive, Heal and Survival so it's a little more useful, but by around level 5 your ranks and class skill bonus overshadow your ability bonus anyway.
Most bloodlines let you pick Skill Focus as a bonus feat anyway. Between the four of you, you should be able to cover whatever skills you need without bending your bloodline to them. Sage and Empyreal only really exist so that you can multiclass sorcerer with a character that dumped Charisma for a different mental stat.
One of the reasons why Humans are almost always the preferred choice for Sorcerers... in addition to their favored class bonus which is tremendous, you get the option of Focused Study - Skill focus feats at 1st, 8th and 16th level. Use one of these to fill the pre-req for your Eldritch Heritage of choice and the other two to buff those key skills for your character, giving them an added dimension of effectiveness...
My thoughts mirror this almost exactly.Thinking on this...
If I were to do this, I think I would go with the following arrangement:
Kitsune Sorcerer (Fey or Serpentine bloodline)
Incredibly potent enchantment spells can both nullify dangerous foes and can even gather potential meatshields in the form of charmed or dominated allies. Secondary role would be as a buffer for the group and summoned/charmed allies. For this I reccomend the Arcane Bloodline and Spell Perfection: Hold Monster. High dexterity and the ability to cast Greater Invisibility as an SLA also makes her the perfect scout and Realistic Likeness has tons of possibilities even at low level.Human Sorcerer (Draconic bloodline - Red dragon) / Dragon Disciple
Five levels of Sorcerer, eight levels of Dragon Disciple and then seven mor elevels of sorcerer. Eldritch Heritage for the Orc Bloodline for additional strength bonuses and the Power of Giants ability. Take one really good fire spell every level you can and then use the rest of those slots for buffs, force damage spells and useful things like Teleport. This character could serve as the 'up-front' force or the blaster with equal ease, making liberal use of spells like Transformation and Form of the Dragon as well as his three natural attacks. I'd reccomend Spell Perfection: Fire Snake for this one with Dazing, Maximized and Quickened options.Human Sorcerer (Abyssal bloodline)
This will be your summoner-type, and I reccomend in addition to Summons that he take the Pit line of spells and some mass buffs like Haste. The Primal Elemental bloodline would be an ideal Eldritch Heritage option for him, granting a movement power but most especially the added bonus to damage for summoned creatures. Fire would be the instinctive first choice, but I'm thinking Earth or Air would be better to compliment your Dragon Disciple.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea that - since there are four - that they have two dragon disciples built in similar fashion... they could even be siblings. Make them both capable of blasting and fighting in melee and leave the other two to their specialties.
This is the basic feat build I put together for our Dragon Disciple (Sorcerer 12/Dragon Disciple 8):
Feats:
1st - Spell Focus: Evocation
1st - Skill Focus: Survival
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
5th - Arcane Strike
7th - Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline
7th - Improved Initiative *
8th - Skill Focus: Intimidate
9th - Maximize Spell
10th - Toughness *
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline
13th - Dazing Spell
13th - Power Attack *
15th - Spell Perfection: Firesnake
15th - Quicken Spell *
16th - Skill Focus: Fly
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline
19th - Quicken SLA (Power of Giants), Quicken SLA (Touch of Rage) or Intensify Spell if those aren't allowed.
* Bloodline feat
Now you'll notice that I don't have any Spell Penetration feats in there, which is the case for two reasons: in our campaign SR doesn't apply to spells that deal elemental damage because we agree that saving throws AND energy resistance is enough to have to try to penetrate already. Secondly, if there's anything that is immune to my spells (due to elemental resistance or otherwise) then the character defaults to some very potent tooth and claw attacks (or more if Dragon form is assumed).
I have always wanted to do this but my groups never want to(everyone wants to be melee types).
Human Sorcerer (Draconic bloodline - Red dragon) / Dragon Disciple
Five levels of Sorcerer, eight levels of Dragon Disciple and then seven mor elevels of sorcerer. Eldritch Heritage for the Orc Bloodline for additional strength bonuses and the Power of Giants ability. Take one really good fire spell every level you can and then use the rest of those slots for buffs, force damage spells and useful things like Teleport. This character could serve as the 'up-front' force or the blaster with equal ease, making liberal use of spells like Transformation and Form of the Dragon as well as his three natural attacks. I'd reccomend Spell Perfection: Fire Snake for this one with Dazing, Maximized and Quickened options.
Honestly I figured I've advocated this enough on the forums, but I figure to go all out for it again. I would suggest either Lightning or Acid over Fire.
Why?
Well, essentially touch attacks. This is your up front melee character. If this sorcerer should focus their spells it should be on the touch attacks, making this character take on more of a debuff/damage role. When they can be quickened, you can still full round attack and the DD gets Quickened as a bonus feat.
Lightning has fairly similar spells to fire when it comes to dishing out damage. What fire DOESN'T have is something like Shocking Grasp - a touch attack spell that does not allow a saving throw at all.
Form of the Dragon II, Haste, Quickened Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp (Magical Knack and Spell Perfection put this as a lvl 3 spell) + Full round attack (adding Rage spell doesn't hurt either). This ends up being the end game bread and butter.
On a different note, don't forget the power of Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal for the extra strength and new damage type on the claws.
Easily dishing out 300+ damage while having adequate HP as a front liner. I have solo'd most BBG at CR+3 this way.
Wow, that's pretty cool. I tried to play a DD once, but it was my first character and I had no idea how to do it properly. The one thing I did get from it though was that DD is not a front line class until at least halfway through the game.
How long does your build take until it becomes effective? Assuming you have to play from level 1, what would you do before you get strong enough to be in melee?
I suppose everyone taking leadership at level 7 is against the spirit of the challenge. Unless, of course, your cohorts were all sorcs...
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Imagines 4 PC sorcerers with 4 cohort sorcerers and a small army of level 1 and 2 sorcerers.
Huh. I went to a Pathfinder session, and a game of Small World broke out.
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I think the best part of all this is that with four sorcerers, if you can co-ordinate and avoid overlap in spells known you'll be able to take all the lesser-used spells that wizards occasionally prepare but sorcerers can't usually spare a spell known on. Things like Animate Rope, Create Treasure Map, Gravity Bow...
Actually, there are enough "gish-type" spells on the Sor/Wiz list that you could probably have a melee/touch spell sorcerer and an archer sorcerer if you really wanted.
For melee, the best bloodline I can think of would be Aberrant, for the ability to gain reach with your touch spells. Though I guess that's not really "melee" anymore, is it?
Honestly I figured I've advocated this enough on the forums, but I figure to go all out for it again. I would suggest either Lightning or Acid over Fire.Why?
Well, essentially touch attacks. This is your up front melee character. If this sorcerer should focus their spells it should be on the touch attacks, making this character take on more of a debuff/damage role. When they can be quickened, you can still full round attack and the DD gets Quickened as a bonus feat.
Lightning has fairly similar spells to fire when it comes to dishing out damage. What fire DOESN'T have is something like Shocking Grasp - a touch attack spell that does not allow a saving throw at all.
Form of the Dragon II, Haste, Quickened Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp (Magical Knack and Spell Perfection put this as a lvl 3 spell) + Full round attack (adding Rage spell doesn't hurt either). This ends up being the end game bread and butter.
On a different note, don't forget the power of Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal for the extra strength and new damage type on the claws.
Easily dishing out 300+ damage while having adequate HP as a front liner. I have solo'd most BBG at CR+3 this way.
I understand what you're saying and I've seen it stated often enough before. I prefer to have the variety of fire spells available RAW including an option at every level or as many levels as I can manage.
Consider:
Form of the Dragon II (round 1 standard action), Haste (round 2 standard action, assuming you use a move action to get within reach range), Quickened Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp (Magical Knack and Spell Perfection put this as a lvl 3 spell) + Full round attack (adding Rage spell doesn't hurt either) (assuming all this happens on the third round not counting the Rage spell).
So you get off your big hit three rounds into combat, assuming you've taken a face beat down at least once if not twice before, and assuming there's no difficult terrain or condition inflicted upon you before you manage it. And that's against a single target.
At that level the build I outlined could get off 2 Quickened Intensified Firesnakes and 2 Dazing Intensified Firesnakes before you ever made that first attack and could have done it from a safe distance affecting multiple foes. If nothing else I could do the Form of the Dragon+Transformation thing while everyone else was wandering around Dazed and then proceed to tear through them with ease...
I understand that that combo you are so fond of can hit a single target really hard... eventually... but as I said, that's not my playstyle.
For what its worth, we pretty much allow in our game any spell that deals elemental damage to have similar versions that deal different types of elemental damage. Its silly to think that there's a 'Shocking Grasp' out there but no 'Burning Grasp', just as its silly to think that there's 'Burning Hands' but no 'Freezing Hands'...
Consider:
Form of the Dragon II (round 1 standard action), Haste (round 2 standard action, assuming you use a move action to get within reach range), Quickened Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp (Magical Knack and Spell Perfection put this as a lvl 3 spell) + Full round attack (adding Rage spell doesn't hurt either) (assuming all this happens on the third round not counting the Rage spell).So you get off your big hit three rounds into combat, assuming you've taken a face beat down at least once if not twice before, and assuming there's no difficult terrain or condition inflicted upon you before you manage it. And that's against a single target.
This is an all sorcerer party, why would Haste (or Rage) be cast by the front liner? There's three other sorcerers that can be casting the party buffs. Also, this is the ideal example in which you are going all out against the BBG. Form of the Dragon II is great and should be used when you can, but it's not a pre-requisite. It's part of being a DD, no matter what color you choose. If you can get your Form of the Dragon up, you do so. If not, then you fight without it.
I'm not certain why you're picking apart circumstantial spell casts when we haven't outlined the circumstances. Are you saying that in your DD build you would never use Form of the Dragon?
It's also all about what you do pre-battle. In game, I rarely cast Form of the Dragon in combat. I would cast it before opening the huge door with archaic runes on it however, or other such examples. It is not hard to have your big transformation going on during the boss fight, and certainly not a waste of a round if you need to.
I understand that that combo you are so fond of can hit a single target really hard... eventually... but as I said, that's not my playstyle.
Yeah, to each their own really. I'm not saying your build idea is bad. It's very good! I prefer to do single target damage if I am a front melee class though. The other sorcerers can focus on the AoE in my mind, but once again, it's a preference.
The optimal blaster caster is a sorc1/wiz (admixture) 19. Get the damage bonuses from dual bloodlines, but be able to switch the element of any elemental attack spell on demand. All sorc, the half-orc above is probably best.
You might want a debuffer/'god' sorc, and if that's the case the Sage sorc, esp with human extra Spells Known, is the best one to fill the role. Int focus will also get you knowledge skills for the party's benefit...and someone has to make the magic items.
==Aelryinth
I don't think cross-blooded is too awful if you are going into dragon disciple anyway to be the melee caster.
I would suggest the empyreal and/or sage to do a better job of covering some more important skills. And the fake priest types might also be ideal.
I agree with everyone having at least a few blasty spells. But I would not suggest they all be fireball. Distribute the types so that if you encounter and 'immune to fire' creature 3 guys can still blast it.
I actually think a party like this would be a lot of fun to play, but they may have a tough time handling some of the things in an AP since it is 'assumed' every party will have certain types of characters present.
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We're having our first session tonight, which will be a planning session and character building. I'll find out what people are thinking tonight. I am leaning towards a Sylvan sorceror with buffing spells to enhance the companion to fill the tank role (Mage Armor, Enlarge Person...), or perhaps an Enchantment-specialized Fey Bloodline Kitsune.
It would be totally awesome if you guys color coordinated to be red, yellow, green, and blue.
And all be gnomes/halflings
We're having our first session tonight, which will be a planning session and character building. I'll find out what people are thinking tonight. I am leaning towards a Sylvan sorceror with buffing spells to enhance the companion to fill the tank role (Mage Armor, Enlarge Person...), or perhaps an Enchantment-specialized Fey Bloodline Kitsune.
You've got mail.
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Three of the players got together tonight to build our characters. I ended up deciding on a Kitsune Sylvan Sorceror with a Wolf companion.
We rolled for stats and I got the following: 14, 10, 17, 13, 11, 7
This is what I have for the character so far.
Female Kitsune Sylvan Sorceror 4
CG Medium Humanoid (Kitsune, Shapechanger)
Init: +3, Perception: +0
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Defense
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AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10
HP 19 (4d6)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3
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Offense
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Speed: 30ft
Melee: Dagger +2 (1d4-1, 19-20/x2) or Bite +2 (1d4-1)
Ranged: MW Light Crossbow +6 (1d8, 19-20/x2), Dagger +6 (1d4-1, 19-20/x2)
Special: Spell-Like Ability: Dancing Lights 3/day, Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Change Shape, Kitsune Magic (+1 DC Enchantment Spells), Favored Class Bonus (4/4 +1 DC Enchantment Spells)
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 20
Base Attack: +2, CMB +1, CMD 14
Feats: Spell Focus: Enchantment, Boon Companion
Traits: Rice Runner (+1 Acrobatics, Acrobatics a Class Skill), Jungle Guide (+1 Handle Animal, Survival, Handle Animal a Class Skill)
Skills: Acrobatics 1 +10, Handle Animal 1 +10, Intimidate +9, Use Magic Device 1 +9
L1: Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Entangle (B), Magic Missle,
L2: Bull's Strength
Wand of Shield (750), Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000), Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000), MW Light Crossbow (335), 20 Bolts (2), Spring-Loaded Wrist Sheath (5), Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750), MW Studded Leather Barding (350), 2 Scrolls of Magic Weapon (50), Scroll of Obscuring Mist (25), Scrollcase (1)
Of the other players who were present, one is building a touch-spell-using Human Aberrant Sorceror, and the other was considering a Dreamspun Sorceror. The fourth player hasn't chimed in yet. It looks like my grand plans for a 'balanced' party aren't coming together 100%, so I guess all I can do is try to make the best Sylvan Sorceror I can.