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On a mechanical level, that's what I'd also prefer, if not necessarily for the same reasons. Though I as I said in a different thread, I understand why it was not playtested that way; they already know how that works, how it is received by players, so little need to playtest.
This though:
2) make the Eidolon the character and the summoner a familiar of the Eidolon (which I prefer) which would provide an interesting dynamic not seen in pf2e.
made me laugh. And then made me think. It would definitely be different, but at the same time well within established rules (albeit applied in a novel way).
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1) Make Eidolon a stronger AC minion and a stronger PC or 2) make the Eidolon the character and the summoner a familiar of the Eidolon (which I prefer) which would provide an interesting dynamic not seen in pf2e.
LOL I said this before the playtest came out: make the summoner the minion. ;)
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I rather prefer the relationship between summoner and eidolon that I set up in my PF1 campaign. There, the summoner and the eidolon each thought that they were the boss and the other one was the minion. To the rest of the party, it was unclear which one was in charge at any given time.
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Eidolons are pretty generic and boring. They do more damage than an animal companion and get more benefit from your items, as far as unique traits and such they are super boring. They feel like the lego version of the creatures they represent. You tack on a few legos to make them look like the creature, then add a few other legos to make them sort of seem like the creatures they represent. But at the end of the day, you still feel like you just put together some legos, generic legos in a different shape.
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While I absolutely agree that eidolon abilities should be more exciting (dragon is by far my favorite because it actually does have some pretty cool powers), I would absolutely disagree that they are more boring than animal companions.
Animal companions can't get property runes on their attacks, while the spirit of my dead apprentice can shoot negative energy beams that light people on fire with a crit, learn some utility cantrips, and get his body mutated to adapt to a wide range of environmental dangers.
That said, support abilities, through both class feats and baked in eidolon abilities, using the tandem mechanics, would be an excellent idea.
For the record though, I dont think ACs are boring, and tbh I have to actively fight the urge to give any and all of my characters a buddy via the beastmaster and familiar master archetypes
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Bird Animal Companions are significantly weaker than others simply because they can fly, and flight is wonderful. In turn, Dragon Eidelons are more powerful than normal ACs. How much weaker than the current version of your Eidelon would you be willing to accept in order to allow it to fly earlier?
Maybe that's an option that needs to be there, perhaps for several other winged ones as well. Gain permanent flying, lose Str and/or an attack die type (or two!). It'd be akin to the damage difference between ranged & melee.*
*This sparks the notion that maybe there should be a "shield" option too, where one drops the Eidelon's damage to gain defense much like going from 2-handed to sword & board style.
Similarly, allowing Eidelons to pick up Familiar abilities would give a strong cohort access to abilities designed to balance with weak cohorts (one's that can barely handle combat at that). Though Paizo could get around imbalances by making a limited list of what's available.
(It would be kind of interesting to have a Witch w/ an Eidelon-Familiar, some sort of spirit guide/angel woo.)
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Bird Animal Companions are significantly weaker than others simply because they can fly, and flight is wonderful. In turn, Dragon Eidelons are more powerful than normal ACs. How much weaker than the current version of your Eidelon would you be willing to accept in order to allow it to fly earlier?
Maybe that's an option that needs to be there, perhaps for several other winged ones as well. Gain permanent flying, lose Str and/or an attack die type (or two!). It'd be akin to the damage difference between ranged & melee.*
For myself, I'd be willing to let the power drop nearly to bird AC level. An Eidolon should be stronger than an equivalent animal companion, as the class chassis is paying for it, but how MUCH stronger is negotiable.
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Bird Animal Companions are significantly weaker than others simply because they can fly, and flight is wonderful. In turn, Dragon Eidelons are more powerful than normal ACs. How much weaker than the current version of your Eidelon would you be willing to accept in order to allow it to fly earlier?
Maybe that's an option that needs to be there, perhaps for several other winged ones as well. Gain permanent flying, lose Str and/or an attack die type (or two!). It'd be akin to the damage difference between ranged & melee.**This sparks the notion that maybe there should be a "shield" option too, where one drops the Eidelon's damage to gain defense much like going from 2-handed to sword & board style.
Similarly, allowing Eidelons to pick up Familiar abilities would give a strong cohort access to abilities designed to balance with weak cohorts (one's that can barely handle combat at that). Though Paizo could get around imbalances by making a limited list of what's available.
(It would be kind of interesting to have a Witch w/ an Eidelon-Familiar, some sort of spirit guide/angel woo.)
But the druid is significantly stronger than the summoner.
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"But the druid is significantly stronger than the summoner."
Which is why the flying Eidelon would be more powerful than a Bird Animal Companion, much like the current Eidelons are superior to other ACs.
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"But the druid is significantly stronger than the summoner."
Which is why the flying Eidelon would be more powerful than a Bird Animal Companion, much like the current Eidelons are superior to other ACs.
They get three actions to start, so that’s already a big advantage. It probably can’t be much stronger than Bird.
But then I legitimately think Bird might be one of the strongest (I’d argue it is the strongest) AC.
Still would love to see options vary at least as much as ACs for eidolons though. It’s just not very inspiring.
I mean they have this whole super awesome trait system for weapons for instance that add a LOT of nuance and fun to fighting mechanics, why not allow that trait system to really thrive in the Eidolon?
The fact that other martials can choose a wider array of options for attacks than Eidolons do when it comes to traits sets them pretty far behind other martials to me, agile is the bare minimum for a 1d4 Attack. Also would be cool if you could buy critical specialization effects for unarmed attacks with certain traits.
Weapon traits are a really inexpensive way to add power, versatility, and customization back to the Eidolon so it’s a little disappointing that the only thing you get to pick is what type of physical damage you deal.
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Eidolons are pretty generic and boring. They do more damage than an animal companion and get more benefit from your items, as far as unique traits and such they are super boring. They feel like the lego version of the creatures they represent. You tack on a few legos to make them look like the creature, then add a few other legos to make them sort of seem like the creatures they represent. But at the end of the day, you still feel like you just put together some legos, generic legos in a different shape.
If eidolons are Legos, then animal companions are action figures. You pretty much get what you get, can only do what it was made to do, and--at best--you might be able to throw on a few accessories.
Legos all the way man!
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Eidolons are pretty generic and boring. They do more damage than an animal companion and get more benefit from your items, as far as unique traits and such they are super boring. They feel like the lego version of the creatures they represent. You tack on a few legos to make them look like the creature, then add a few other legos to make them sort of seem like the creatures they represent. But at the end of the day, you still feel like you just put together some legos, generic legos in a different shape.If eidolons are Legos, then animal companions are action figures. You pretty much get what you get, can only do what it was made to do, and--at best--you might be able to throw on a few accessories.
Legos all the way man!
I'll take action figures with an amazing PC like a druid or ranger who doesn't even need the action figure to excel over Legos and an attached PC that can't do much. The number of times I've seen a druid or ranger forget about their AC and still blow things up I can't even count. That is unlikely to occur with the summoner.
The AC is an additional option to any class that takes it. The eidolon is the boring main feature of the summoner class with the summoner barely able to do anything with shared MAP, hit points, 4 spell slots, and an eidolon that forms 80% of the class. An AC is about 10 or 15% of a PC that takes one.
I even read a thread where a summoner in the playtest took an animal companion. It didn't sound like the eidolon severely outclassed the AC. Pretty sad.
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I even read a thread where a summoner in the playtest took an animal companion. It didn't sound like the eidolon severely outclassed the AC. Pretty sad.
That may have been my Thread, where I had a beast master Summoner with a bird AC. It was mostly augmenting both of them, as it offered a perfect and coordinated flanking parter.
The issue arose in encounter 3 when a bad aoe caught Eidolon and Summoner which put the Summoner under and thus unmanifested the Eidolon, so the AC had to carry from there.
...so the AC had to carry from there.
How did your GM arbitrate that situation?
Did the bird fly away? Do nothing? Suddenly start getting three actions?
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I even read a thread where a summoner in the playtest took an animal companion. It didn't sound like the eidolon severely outclassed the AC. Pretty sad.
That may have been my Thread, where I had a beast master Summoner with a bird AC. It was mostly augmenting both of them, as it offered a perfect and coordinated flanking parter.
The issue arose in encounter 3 when a bad aoe caught Eidolon and Summoner which put the Summoner under and thus unmanifested the Eidolon, so the AC had to carry from there.
They really have to fix that disadvantage on AoE saves or we'll be seeing a lot of summoners taken out along with their eidolons. It will be especially bad considering how long it takes to get back into action with Manifest Eidolon requiring 3 actions to do nothing for a round on top of having to stand up and pick anything up you had in your hands.
The bird is excellent for flanking. It's mobility is the best of the ACs. I like the wolf too. Good mobility and good attack ability.
It's really kicking my ass trying to customize the eidolon and keep within the balance guidelines while being effective in the PF2 model. Everything has to be so tight. It's hard to move outside the balance range for stats and damage. They would really have to do like ACs and have maybe 1 point stat difference here or there.
Even with the ACs a nimble companion is obviously superior to a savage companion. You don't want the eidolons to end up with that level of obvious superiority.
I've reached the point where I don't think much can be done. If you want to play a really fun, interesting, customizable summoner, you're going to have to play PF1. Summoner is not a balanced class. The level of customization from PF1 isn't possible with the balanced math in PF2. This will have to be the PF2 summoner that is a shadow of what it was in PF1, so it can be balanced. There is no real other way to do it.
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They get three actions to start, so that’s already a big advantage. It probably can’t be much stronger than Bird.
Locks the summoner half out of most spellcasting or attacking + moving in the same turn to take those three actions though, which is not something a druid or ranger has to deal with.
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They get three actions to start, so that’s already a big advantage. It probably can’t be much stronger than Bird.Locks the summoner half out of most spellcasting or attacking + moving in the same turn to take those three actions though, which is not something a druid or ranger has to deal with.
People really need to understand that the biggest comparison to power budget is the Animal Druid for the Summoner and the Wildshape Druid for the Synthesist.
Summoner does not have anywhere near the spellcasting power and versatility of the Animal Druid, the Eidolon is definitely stronger but it's not entirely better than an Animal Companion.
The trade-off here for all the lost spellcasting power doesn't seem to be equivalent to what the Eidolon does gain over the Animal Companion of the Druid. Summoner's problems seem to be more than just tweaking some number to make it not so undertuned. I think certain mechanics need a rewrite, such as lifelink/shared HP, so the Summoner's interactions with other mechanics aren't so complex or counter-intuitive.
I have no idea what the devs must be thinking or feeling right now reading all of the feedback on the playtest Summoner; sincerely, i hope Mark isn't anxious about what he's read in the feedback, i have no idea how "on the clock" playtesting material testing is for devs.
I'm no game designer but i struggle to think how the Summoner will look when finalized, a lot will have to be fixed/changed beyond a few sentences being re-written, i don't see the final Summoner looking too much like playtest.
Locks the summoner half out of most spellcasting or attacking + moving in the same turn to take those three actions though, which is not something a druid or ranger has to deal with.
But by using act together, you can always get a 2/2 action split between summoner and eidolon, just like a character with an animal companion. Using Mark's suggested change to act together, to allow for activities, even removes the issue of struggling to cast.
The great thing about shared actions is the versatility. If the summoner needs all three actions, then the eidolon still gets an action, which an AC can only do after spending a feat. Or, if you want the eidolon to get all three actions, the summoner can still take an action, which you can only do with companion's cry. It basically has all of the AC economy fixers built in. Combine that with tandem actions like tandem stride, and the eidolon/summoner are way more flexible with their actions than a druid with an AC would typically be.
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...so the AC had to carry from there.How did your GM arbitrate that situation?
Did the bird fly away? Do nothing? Suddenly start getting three actions?
Great question. I was the GM and the AC was a Mature Companion so I ruled it still got its single action without being commanded.
My reasoning was the following round the healer would be healing and also I was pretty afraid they were going to straight up TPK (opening move by sea drake was to use lightning ball and they crit failed).
Not sure if that’s RAW but it was a single additional action if it was not.
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I have no idea what the devs must be thinking or feeling right now reading all of the feedback on the playtest Summoner; sincerely, i hope Mark isn't anxious about what he's read in the feedback, i have no idea how "on the clock" playtesting material testing is for devs.
I'm no game designer but i struggle to think how the Summoner will look when finalized, a lot will have to be fixed/changed beyond a few sentences being re-written, i don't see the final Summoner looking too much like playtest.
I just don't see this at the levels where Summoner is strongest. I literally respecced from a Beastmaster Cleric to an Angel Summoner, and the difference is night and day - and not in the Clerics favor.
My pet is more interesting, MUCH stronger as a combatant, and contributes in all modes of play almost as well as an additional PC.
My spellcasting has less endurance, but its still potent and encounter shifting. I didn't lose my big signature spells, I'm just not dependent on magic in general to make significant contributions to encounters since I can lean on my Eidolon in ways the Animal Companion couldn't accommodate... the AC is at best a support piece, where the Eidolon is a legitimate combatant.
The summoner is just more interesting to play than the Beastmaster spellcaster, because at its heart the BeastCaster is just a spellcaster with a utility hitpoint ball. The Summoner brings a second "character".
I agree they need to "fix" the levels where Eidolons are currently strictly behind Martials on their Core Math, but in general I simply haven't perceived this glaring weakness some are referencing, or the lack of fun.
Its a class that encourages thoughtful and strategic play to accommodate for its weaknesses and resource limits, but its extremely rewarding when you do.
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Take a look at the Animal companion list of various abilities, stat differences, etc. They feel more like their emulations. Hell, a bird AC can fly at level 1, but a dragon Eidolon can't?
I actually agree with you that this is a problem, but it's only tangentially related to whether or not an eidolon is interesting or not.
When comparing the power of an eidolon and an AC, there's really no contest. Eidolons start off with one ability based on their form, a 1d8 and a 1d4 agile attack, literally all of your skills, and can be mutated to gain a wide array of abilities that give them extremely good versatility, and they scale with you, all without any feat investment.
Like yeah, it's kind of annoying I have to start off with a flightless dragon as opposed to just letting me give it a fly speed early on and treat it like AC and flight speeds, and just make the 16th level feat the ability to ride and fly, but like, if I'm going to compare the riding drake, which is basically a glorified horse mechanically, to my eidolon drake that has a full breath weapon, actual combat ready stats, and can be mutated on a whim to conquer almost any terrain at level 1, like, I don't even think it's a contest of which one is cooler
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You cannot ride your dragon. Your dragon cannot fly, swim, or gains a climb speed at level 1.
You can absolutely gain a swim speed at level 1.
You can also grant a movement bonus significant enough to essentially negate difficult terrain relative to base PC movement rates, and in open terrain be fast enough to outmaneuver pretty much any other player-character asset.
How?
You cannot ride your dragon. Your dragon cannot fly, swim, or gains a climb speed at level 1.
You can absolutely gain a swim speed at level 1.
You can also grant a movement bonus significant enough to essentially negate difficult terrain relative to base PC movement rates, and in open terrain be fast enough to outmaneuver pretty much any other player-character asset.
Evolution Surge.
Level 1 options include an imprecise non-visual sense (scent), a swim speed, and a +20 foot status bonus to speed (essentially, nearly doubling your base speed meaning you move nearly as fast through difficult terrain as anyone else does outside of it) for an entire encounter.
I've not needed the swim speed yet, but the other two are Hella useful.
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I just don't see this at the levels where Summoner is strongest. I literally respecced from a Beastmaster Cleric to an Angel Summoner, and the difference is night and day - and not in the Clerics favor.
My pet is more interesting, MUCH stronger as a combatant, and contributes in all modes of play almost as well as an additional PC.
Out of curiosity what level was this comparison done at?
And if we're to make a better comparison, I'd say a Beast Summoner vs. Druid with AC is more apt.
As someone that saw the Angel Summoner run Beastmaster as well, I don't know that I would have called the Eidolon more interesting so much as I would call it slightly more powerful.
For instance, Bird has 60ft Fly.
Beast gets Beast Charge and have 25ft movement, so 50ft and then attack as two actions.
That's less total distance than a Bird can fly and make an attack, they both have the same bonus to hit, the bird actually has flight, the bird actually has a Support action that the Beast Eidolon does not.
In general, I think I've heard both sides make good points, but I really don't see how you could claim that an Eidolon is "more interesting" than an Animal Companion at the moment on its own.
You spend Boost Eidolon, Eidolon Surge, etc. every turn then it might get more interesting, but the Animal Companion doesn't have to do that (and if you have to spend an action to be "more interesting" then the action economy actually favors the Bird).
Now I am comparing what I think to be the worst Eidolon (Beast) with what I believe to be the best AC (Bird), but nonetheless, my argument is that it shouldn't be close at all. Especially on the topic of "who is more interesting".
Personally, I think making the animal companion the starting place (pick one of the ACs) and then Eidolon was just an enhancement of that, you'd be a lot closer to making something that actually feels great.
AKA:
Dragon Eidolon - "Pick one Animal Companion with a Fly speed. That animal companion takes the form of a Dragon and selects a type. It then gains the following abilities:
1st level: Resistance 1/2 level, minimum 1 and Draconic Frenzy
5th level: Breath Weapon every 1d4 rounds
9th level: Grows to Medium in Size or Large if your Animal Companion was already Medium and gains immunity to damage type
...
Off the cuff, but you get the idea.
Basically the "Eidolon" is a template applied to an Animal Companion that grants it additional abilities, and then you just treat the whole situation exactly the same (less rules clutter too, since you're only adding the "Act Together" action).
Gets rid of a lot of the weird clunk mechanics of them being the same creature for spells as well, which honestly, is a bit cheesable on both sides of the table.
Spamming Lay on Hands on yourself with Blessed One or personal Heal/Battle Medicine on yourself as Summoner to heal Eidolon is just as cheesy for the summoner as getting hit with Fireballs and blowing up is for the GM.
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So you can use it for 1 minute every 10 minutes. That just doesn't feel good at all. Its only useful in very brief situations such as combat or needing to make a single climb or swim check.
Its once per encounter.
Ability durations of a minute are more than sufficient for an encounter, and most exploration mode skill challenges.
Refocusing is expected to happen after each encounter, meaning that this shouldn't be a resource issue.
If you're playing outside those conditions, you're outside of what the game is being balanced for in general.
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Out of curiosity what level was this comparison done at?
And if we're to make a better comparison, I'd say a Beast Summoner vs. Druid with AC is more apt.
Levels 6-7.
I'm way less interested in comparing the threat range of a Bird AC and Beast Eidolon than I am in comparing what theyre actually capable of doing.
In addition to being just straight weaker in-combat, an animal companion can't-
-Communicate or coordinate mentally, inside or outside of combat.
-Act "on its own" as much as any character can, with the minor caveat of sharing actions. An Eidolon can take initiative, like a PC. Its under the players control, just like a PC, without a requirement for the Character to provide instruction.
-Hold a conversation with an NPC, asking questions, making requests, or delivering information.
-Provide aid on a full range of skills or activities.
-Cast spells or use cantrips.
-Make medicine checks to stabilize, or counter many forms of persistent damage.
-accept any command more complicated than an Animal could reasonably handle on its own logically.
-coordinate verbally with other party members, use advanced tactics, or shout taunts and insults.
-particpate in many roleplaying interactions that require player level capacity or initiative.
-open a jar of pickles
Eidolons are more interesting than ACs because they can be treated like a player character by both the players, and the game mechanics.
If you are treating them like an Animal Companion in your game, you're doing them a disservice. They're every bit as much a character as the player character is, and they should receive every bit as much dialogue, interaction, and descriptive focus during the game. Animal Companions are significant, but they're simply prevented from participating on so many levels where Eidolons are not.
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-open a jar of pickles
Too OP please nerf.
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Out of curiosity what level was this comparison done at?
And if we're to make a better comparison, I'd say a Beast Summoner vs. Druid with AC is more apt.
Levels 6-7.
I'm way less interested in comparing the threat range of a Bird AC and Beast Eidolon than I am in comparing what theyre actually capable of doing.
In addition to being just straight weaker in-combat, an animal companion can't-
-Communicate or coordinate mentally, inside or outside of combat.
-Act "on its own" as much as any character can, with the minor caveat of sharing actions. An Eidolon can take initiative, like a PC. Its under the players control, just like a PC, without a requirement for the Character to provide instruction.
-Hold a conversation with an NPC, asking questions, making requests, or delivering information.
-Provide aid on a full range of skills or activities.
-Cast spells or use cantrips.
-Make medicine checks to stabilize, or counter many forms of persistent damage.
-accept any command more complicated than an Animal could reasonably handle on its own logically.
-coordinate verbally with other party members, use advanced tactics, or shout taunts and insults.
-particpate in many roleplaying interactions that require player level capacity or initiative.
-open a jar of picklesEidolons are more interesting than ACs because they can be treated like a player character by both the players, and the game mechanics.
If you are treating them like an Animal Companion in your game, you're doing them a disservice. They're every bit as much a character as the player character is, and they should receive every bit as much dialogue, interaction, and descriptive focus during the game. Animal Companions are significant, but they're simply prevented from participating on so many levels where Eidolons are not.
A very good point.
-open a jar of pickles
Too OP please nerf.
I use it as a comic example, but I've had player-characters live instead of die in games I've run because the person standing next to them could pull a potion off their belt and administer it to them.
Its literally a life and death distinction in capability between the two.
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I'm way less interested in comparing the threat range of a Bird AC and Beast Eidolon than I am in comparing what theyre actually capable of doing.
I mean, considering Beast Charge is THE Ability they get at level 1, I don't think you're allowed to "side step" that aspect.
Beast literally gets an ability that enables them to do what a Bird companion can already do better than they can (60ft, ignores difficult terrain, can attack creatures above, etc.)
So while you're welcome to discount the "threat range", it does not just include threat range. It includes any amount of action that can take place in that range (which is in a 180 degree application of "threat").
In addition to being just straight weaker in-combat, an animal companion can't-
"Straight weaker" in what way? It does on average slightly less damage, but in the comparison I just made, the Beast doesn't have a Support action at all and the AC does.
Also, as you pointed out, the threat range is ridiculously in favor of the Bird.
I wouldn't argue that Eidolon isn't a more formidable combatant to a certain degree, but I think it should be acknowledged that the difference in power is really not that much.
Communicate or coordinate mentally, inside or outside of combat.
I mean, Speak with Animals is a thing, as is Wild Empathy. We're making a Druid comparison here right?
And I think it's pretty far fetched to say you can't coordinate. Command doesn't restrict coordination, it only restricts simultaneous actions.
Act "on its own" as much as any character can, with the minor caveat of sharing actions. An Eidolon can take initiative, like a PC. Its under the players control, just like a PC, without a requirement for the Character to provide instruction.
An AC can be a Mature Companion by level 4 and Eidolons lose all agency if the Summoner goes under or if either of them have a status ailment applied to them.
Meanwhile, even if the Druid is Stunned 3 (or unconscious) with a Mature Companion, it still gets an action.
The trades it gets for autonomy it loses something for that elsewhere, it isn't a straight upgrade.
Hold a conversation with an NPC, asking questions, making requests, or delivering information.
This is really the same point twice.
Provide aid on a full range of skills or activities
How exactly? It really can't do this all that well and some ACs can certainly do this.
Cast spells or use cantrips
I'll give you this one, but I'll be honest, there are very few contexts in which casting a spell as an Eidolon (outside of Shield) is even worth it or good to have.
In almost all cases the Summoner can cast the spell to greater effect and the Summoner needs to have the Eidolon Manifested which means they have to be awake and non-action restricted. That means no casting while the Summoner is down or anything.
Its a benefit sure, but +1 AC and a once per encounter Shield Block cost you Feats to do that.
Make medicine checks to stabilize, or counter many forms of persistent damage
How pray tell is it going to accomplish this in actuality? It is not going to be good at Medicine checks.
It can't use Battle Medicine or gain Skill Feats, so it is restricted to Treat Wounds only, and I'd debate whether or not it can even use a "Medicine Kit" if the creature is say a "Dragon".
Regardless on the kit ruling, the Eidolon is not going to be successful often and this is really only a benefit if the Summoner doesn't have a better medicine because the Summoner has to be awake for the Eidolon to exist (and thus you can't bring back the Summoner with Treat Wounds if they are say the party healer).
accept any command more complicated than an Animal could reasonably handle on its own logically.
Such as? Gonna be subjective to GMs.
coordinate verbally with other party members, use advanced tactics, or shout taunts and insults.
So the value of the Eidolon comes from GMs that restrict Animal Companions with their ability to "caw" or "woof" at enemies? or Druids to ask them to flank for a Fighter?
I don't think deriving value that way is fair or even necessarily true.
I'd like to hear examples of useful things an Eidolon could actually do where the Summoner/Druid in this case couldn't just also do that thing.
Remember, the Summoner has to be awake. If the Summoner is awake, they can do all these things.
Eidolons are more interesting than ACs because they can be treated like a player character by both the players, and the game mechanics.
Except as I've pointed out, there's no reason to use your Eidolon in player interactions over the Summoner in most situations.
The exceptions are the ones that call for say, breaking down a door, but I hardly consider that "interesting".
If you are treating them like an Animal Companion in your game, you're doing them a disservice. They're every bit as much a character as the player character is, and they should receive every bit as much dialogue, interaction, and descriptive focus during the game. Animal Companions are significant, but they're simply prevented from participating on so many levels where Eidolons are not.
I absolutely did not treat them like an Animal Companion, but according to you Animal Companions seem to be incapable of taking a basic command like "attack from here" or "bark at them".
At no point in any of the encounters that I ran in the playtest (which included exploration tactics in between) did any of the stuff you mention come up in the Eidolon's favor.
You wanna know what did? The Bird fighting a Nuglub in a tree that no one else could reach. The Bird being able to flank with the Magus with its single action while the Summoner was unconscious and the Eidolon had unmanifested.
Those interactions were way more important.
Even the Eidolon Surge which the Summoner used to allow the Eidolon to swim across the creek in Encounter 2 was a cost of an action, and the Bird just flew over the creek.
In all those instances, I treated the Eidolon like an Eidolon and it came out worse than the Bird.
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I absolutely did not treat them like an Animal Companion, but according to you Animal Companions seem to be incapable of taking a basic command like "attack from here" or "bark at them".
Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. I allow Animal Companions to employ all sorts of some tactics, especially those actually demonstrated by real animals.
I'm saying that you can tell your Eidolon to go wait around that corner over there, and then jump out if it thinks the situation is becoming dangerous.
An Animal companion simply can't do that - it does as directed.
An Eidolon shares your actions, it isn't granted actions by the Summoner. That's a simple but profound difference in how it should be run at the table.
They can make judgment calls, have opinions and voice them, and understand complex situations, relationships, and tactics that go beyond just flanking - like, "Lets lure them into a false sense of security to draw them into attacking us in the open, so the town guard will see and come to our aid."
That's outside the scope of abstract strategy an animal should be capable of.
****
Beyond that, you make a lot of statements about Eidolons being bad at skills that aren't really substantiated in the rules. Many DCs - like for stabilizing allies, or Aiding allies - don't scale at all and even merely being trained will quickly result in reliable success.
For some things, you don't need to be able to make skill checks for human interaction to be valuable. If you're gathering information about a settlement, simply being able to make easy gather information checks twice as fast is a boon.
Not to mention, as written Eidolons get to increase up to two mental stats at minimal opportunity cost since Con simply isn't terribly valuable for them.
Theres plenty you can do interaction wise with them, even if their stats are suboptimal. Theres a lot of focus on skill feats, but they aren't that essential for getting good mileage from skills. Theres no need for an Eidolon to replace a rogue - theyre perfectly good at aiding and supplementing one as is.
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You didn't really rebuttal anything I said though.
When would it be more advantageous for the Eidolon to perform Medicine than a Summoner?
Apply this to any act that both of them can do. You're right, they share action. They share existence. One is down, the other is down. That's how it works.
So when is having an Eidolon (that can go 100ft away from you at any given time) doing an action going to be significantly better than the Summoner doing it themselves?
What about my latter points, where in the actual encounters and playtest I ran the Bird was able to do things the Eidolon could not do? Are those points invalid because the Eidolon has its own thoughts and speech?
Encounter 2 Creek obstruction, Eidolon has to use Eidolon Surge, Bird just flies over.
Encounter 1, Bird attacks creature in tree out of reach of Eidolon.
Encounter 3, Summoner is knocked out, Eidolon is gone, Bird still gets an action and Flanks for Magus. Bird can be healed/pop up without a 3 action Summon tax, and Eidolon cannot.
These aren't me "wildly downplaying the value of skills" these are three interactions that occured in actual play with a Summoner Player who had both.
Are you implying that the derived value of being able to occasionally stabilize someone out of reach of the Summoner is somehow more valuable than all the scenarios above that ultimately made huge impacts in all 3 encounters?
How about if I needed to retrieve something at the top of a 100ft sheer cliff?
Oh, Eidolon can't go that fair even with a Climb Speed? Bird can?
What about retrieving the keys on the wall over there without waking the guard?
Oh your three action desummon and resummon woke the guard with Verbal Components while the bird snagged the keys off the nail and brought them over.
____
We can act like there's all these really unique scenarios where having something more autonomous is super valuable, but in actuality, it's not really that beneficial when you consider the trade offs that it comes with.
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When would it be more advantageous for the Eidolon to perform Medicine than a Summoner?
When the Eidolon is standing next to the dieing ally, and you're not - or doing so would be unacceptably dangerous - for a start.
Theres also time concerns. There are plenty of reasons you might want your Eidolon to do something during exploration while you do something else. For instance, I could have my Eidolon repair an allies shield while I make a medicine check.
So when is having an Eidolon (that can go 100ft away from you at any given time) doing an action going to be significantly better than the Summoner doing it themselves?
You seem highly focused on having someone only do things when they're strictly optimal. I dont recommend this. 2E is tuned such that its unlikely those even Trained in a skill will make things worse, encouraging them to attempt checks on a regular basis.
Also, roleplay.
What about my latter points, where in the actual encounters and playtest I ran the Bird was able to do things the Eidolon could not do? Are those points invalid because the Eidolon has its own thoughts and speech?
Of course not. No ones saying that Birds can't be awesome. In fact, its better for everyone if they retain unique advantages and a niche, and the Eidolon excels in other ways - like combat numbers and fundamental capacity.
Encounter 2 Creek obstruction, Eidolon has to use Eidolon Surge, Bird just flies over.
Sure. If that's all that's needed here, the Bird is optimal. If you need it to locate something beyond your ability to describe to a bird, its in trouble though.
"Find a red gem." is a significant trick for an animal, and trivial for your eidlon to get the nuance of.
Encounter 1, Bird attacks creature in tree out of reach of Eidolon.
Again, sure, this is valid. The bird is also way easier to fight back against and less good at fighting in general.
Encounter 3, Summoner is knocked out, Eidolon is gone, Bird still gets an action and Flanks for Magus. Bird can be healed/pop up without a 3 action Summon tax, and Eidolon cannot.
No ones saying ACs can't have advantages in some places.
These aren't me "wildly downplaying the value of skills" these are three interactions that occured in actual play with a Summoner Player who had both.Are you implying that the derived value of being able to occasionally stabilize someone out of reach of the Summoner is somehow more valuable than all the scenarios above that ultimately made huge impacts in all 3 encounters?
I feel like we've had way different experiences skill wise.
Because my level 6-7 Summoner has an "effective" 18 in three attributes and 14s in two other mental ones, any time during exploration we've needed to roll a skill for an obstacle or puzzle my Summoner has either had the best or second best modifier in the party.
There have been plenty of cases where during exploration, its been a significant boon to have the Eidolon participating- either assisting or making a skill check themselves- while I attend to medical care between encounters. If not, the Eidolon can assist me directly, meaning that I can count on a reliable circumstance bonus without anyone else in the party investing in medicine.
There have also been plenty of cases where the Eidolon is in a better position to do something during an encounter than a Summoner, simply because of how it plays.
Also, the second roll on Recall Knowledge without a scaling DC is a pretty awesome thing.
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You didn't really rebuttal anything I said though.
When would it be more advantageous for the Eidolon to perform Medicine than a Summoner?
Apply this to any act that both of them can do. You're right, they share action. They share existence. One is down, the other is down. That's how it works.
So when is having an Eidolon (that can go 100ft away from you at any given time) doing an action going to be significantly better than the Summoner doing it themselves?
What about my latter points, where in the actual encounters and playtest I ran the Bird was able to do things the Eidolon could not do? Are those points invalid because the Eidolon has its own thoughts and speech?
Encounter 2 Creek obstruction, Eidolon has to use Eidolon Surge, Bird just flies over.
Encounter 1, Bird attacks creature in tree out of reach of Eidolon.
Encounter 3, Summoner is knocked out, Eidolon is gone, Bird still gets an action and Flanks for Magus. Bird can be healed/pop up without a 3 action Summon tax, and Eidolon cannot.
These aren't me "wildly downplaying the value of skills" these are three interactions that occured in actual play with a Summoner Player who had both.
Are you implying that the derived value of being able to occasionally stabilize someone out of reach of the Summoner is somehow more valuable than all the scenarios above that ultimately made huge impacts in all 3 encounters?
How about if I needed to retrieve something at the top of a 100ft sheer cliff?
Oh, Eidolon can't go that fair even with a Climb Speed? Bird can?
What about retrieving the keys on the wall over there without waking the guard?
Oh your three action desummon and resummon woke the guard with Verbal Components while the bird snagged the keys off the nail and brought them over.
____
We can act like there's all these really unique scenarios where having something more autonomous is super valuable, but in actuality, it's not really that beneficial when you consider the trade offs that it...
Krispy isn't really interested in optimal play. She doesn't have those type of players. For players that pursue optimal play, the eidolon-summoner combination is very weak. Most of what Krispy touts as advantageous are not advantageous from an optimal play viewpoint.
I played an eidolon angel summoner. It's attack routine was very simple. It offered zero advantages to merely allowing another player to engage in the skill actions Krispy seems to think make the eidolon stand out. For example, Medicine is never used in my group without skill feats. And it is a downtime activity most of the time meaning it isn't some great role-play opportunity. You have a medic who does it in an optimal fashion.
I'm still not sure what Krispy means by independence mechanically since the eidolon does nothing without you making it do something like spending actions.
Krispy can make this claim with a straight face while the animal companion does get a truly independent action the DM can decide to carry out even if only a stride or strike. Krispy also apparently doesn't appreciate animal personalities which some players greatly enjoy. My buddy role-plays his animal all the time and his animal companion does have a personality. So no idea what Krisphy is talking about as the AC has more independence than an eidolon mechanically.
It even states the animal does what it will do naturally and the DM can even allow it to keep attacking on its own if the player has developed the ACs personality to indicate it would do so. There are countless examples, especially amongst canines like wolves, where even if the master falls the animal will fight to the death to protect what the animal views often as a family member.
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...
When players start falling back on the Recall Knowledge defense, just run away. You know the class is bad when Recall Knowledge becomes the argument as to why they are decent.
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When the Eidolon is standing next to the dieing ally, and you're not - or doing so would be unacceptably dangerous - for a start.
I mean I'll go ahead and call that the "end" too, because it pretty much is.
I literally pointed out that's about the only circumstance where an Eidolon would be better at doing it than a Summoner.
But if the Summoner can move twice and use Battle Medicine, that would be far more effective (or an actual Heal spell with range).
And that's discounting the fact that there is a critical failure effect for this two action ability.
So literally, the creature has to be more than 25ft from the Summoner, closer to the Eidolon than the Summoner, and there be no other "better" actions to save the creature available.
And we're saying that the slimmest of margins of actions is some how "more interesting"?
No ones saying ACs can't have advantages in some places.
In "some places"?
It had value the Eidolon didn't in all three encounters, and none of the things you mentioned came up in any of them.
It's not just "some places" and quite frankly downplaying the value of those moments in the playtest I ran makes no sense to me. An Eidolon should feel empowered to do things that the Bird could not do.
There were no instances in my playtest where the Eidolon did anything the Bird could not do better or outright didn't have to do outside of doing +2 additional damage on a Strike.
And there were several instances where the opposite was true.
"Find a red gem." is a significant trick for an animal, and trivial for your eidlon to get the nuance of.
So am I to understand that finding a red gem is not something you would allow a Crow to do?
Even then, when (if ever) has it been significant in your campaigns/experience to find a red gem that ultimately was not solved by any other measurable means within a party?
This is a problem that quite frankly sounds made up and doesn't actually have much in play outcomes.
No one is denying an Eidolon can do those things, I'm denying that finding a Red Gem is somehow more valuable because the Eidolon can do it when pretty much everyone else can already do this anyways.
A Crow can find a red gem when the Summoner is unconscious/stunned. An Eidolon can't do that. Why are we only measuring this agency value in the context of an Eidolon wanting to do that?
There isn't going to be a game changing moment because an Eidolon found a red gem and the AC couldn't.
I mean, I'm reluctant to call things strawmen, but saying an Eidolon can find a Red gem is dang close to one IMO.
There have also been plenty of cases where the Eidolon is in a better position to do something during an encounter than a Summoner, simply because of how it plays.
That's just not true. Nothing backs that up, and the Summoner can be an Elf, have Fleet or any number of Skill Feats to enhance their movement.
Summoner gets Evolution Surge. That's it.
You seem highly focused on having someone only do things when they're strictly optimal. I dont recommend this. 2E is tuned such that its unlikely those even Trained in a skill will make things worse, encouraging them to attempt checks on a regular basis.
Also, roleplay.
Generally, when the argument devolves into "yeah but you value only combat and I like Roleplay and you clearly don't value Roleplay because you're saying speech doesn't matter!" is where I get off the train.
Roleplay is totally available to the Druid/Summoner regardless of the Eidolon and the Eidolon does not enable further "Roleplay" from the player, it enables further "Roleplay" from the Eidolon
And if the Eidolon was able to act entirely autonomously from the Summoner, had its own actions, and did not require the Summoner to be awake, then you would have a point.
But that's not the case. In any case where you can use your Eidolon to "Roleplay", you can just as easily tell the Summoner to do it and in most cases it's more efficient to do so even in a social setting
It really irks me when people assume my games are not packed with awesome roleplay moments (and if you had read the thread where I playtested, you'd see it was PACKED with awesome moments and one of my players even wrote an RP Epilogue despite it being a playtest).
I even describe encounter 3 as one of my favorite encounters because the Eidolon was down and out and it required creative play.
So respectfully, I will not fight paper tigers of "find the red gem" as it is some kind of extremely beneficial "pay out" for being objectively weaker than an Animal Companion in most applicable scenarios.
How often would I want a bird to retrieve something from on high/unreachable location?
The answer is much more often than I would want to "find a red gem" (which I would still allow an Animal Companion to do given the right context).
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stuff
I like how you framed your entire post around statements about the desires and intents of people other than yourself, as if you were somehow an expert!
My players are extremely interested in tactical and challenging play. Finding good decisions that produce productive results based on the situation.
That does not require making the most optimal choices at any given moment.
It also does not require one to only make numerically optimal choices at all stages of play.
They already steamrolled Age of Ashes with a two hand maul fighter + bard + tank champion (+ alchemist). That party comp more or less "solved" combat in PF2E - and now we're moving on to more challenging character builds, armed with a knowledge of how the system works.
I am not interested in "optimal" play, because the game is about more than just winning.
Winning is easy - and boring, if you just use the optimal solution.
Challenging gameplay that encourages you to work for solutions is better.
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...When players start falling back on the Recall Knowledge defense, just run away. You know the class is bad when Recall Knowledge becomes the argument as to why they are decent.
Well, for some classes, it can be a real benefit: like a mastermind rogue or investigator with Known Weaknesses that get extra stuff for it. Now I agree if it's JUST the amazing ability to roll a normal check without anything extra attached, yeah that's pretty lackluster.
Well, for some classes, it can be a real benefit: like a mastermind rogue or investigator with Known Weaknesses that get extra stuff for it. Now I agree if it's JUST the amazing ability to roll a normal check without anything extra attached, yeah that's pretty lackluster....When players start falling back on the Recall Knowledge defense, just run away. You know the class is bad when Recall Knowledge becomes the argument as to why they are decent.
A second roll on a check that both -
Can't be repeated on a normal failure
And
Provides incomplete information a success, and becomes harder with each successful roll
Is not a negligible benefit.
Its not particularly glamorous, or exciting, but when you really need to remember which damage type it is that ISNT going to cause the Ochre jelly to split while suffering no damage, its a great mitigation to rolling poorly on your first roll.
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Its not particularly glamorous, or exciting, but when you really need to remember which damage type it is that ISNT going to cause the Ochre jelly to split while suffering no damage, its a great mitigation to rolling poorly on your first roll.
So it is not "interesting" then?