I saw my first sub-BBEG coup de grace'd because he failed a (DC 18) Hold Person. Kinda took the wind out of the combat...You not have seen a heavens oracle use colorspray
Arcanist has the power to give anything a +2 DC/CL, grab an arcane school, and a bloodline. Can't wait to see what comes out of that.
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Arcanist has the power to give anything a +2 DC/CL, grab an arcane school, and a bloodline. Can't wait to see what comes out of that.I saw my first sub-BBEG coup de grace'd because he failed a (DC 18) Hold Person. Kinda took the wind out of the combat...You not have seen a heavens oracle use colorspray
Yeah I saw that and people are complaining about Lessons of Chaldira
Yeah I saw that and people are complaining about Lessons of ChaldiraArcanist has the power to give anything a +2 DC/CL, grab an arcane school, and a bloodline. Can't wait to see what comes out of that.I saw my first sub-BBEG coup de grace'd because he failed a (DC 18) Hold Person. Kinda took the wind out of the combat...You not have seen a heavens oracle use colorspray
Ahahaha... Yes... Distract them from the power of the mighty Wizard! I cast Potent Empowered Battering Blast!
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Heh. Regarding the failed saving throw thing, I was running a module, Tier 10-12, and the 11th level Cleric failed three consecutive Fortitude saves against the Suffocation spell.
And the DC was definitely in a range he could succeed on.
11th level Cleric, cloak + something, good Con as a melee cleric, so should have had a good chance to save at least once to survive.
Nope. I think he used a reroll, from a shirt or some such, and still rolled badly.
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Durids have to sacrifice a spell to spontaneously cast their summons. Summoner has this as an innate ability, at 5+CHA. They do not need to sacrifice any spell slots, and if they do not have the eidelon out, there is no limit to the number of summons. These last minutes per level, not rounds.
So if a level 3 summoner with 20 Charisma wanted to, they can summon 10 x 1d3 eagles at the same time. All augmented. Then open the door to the big boss man.
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Summoning Mastery (Sp)
Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + his Charisma modifier. The summoner can use this ability when his eidolon is summoned. Only one summon monster spell may be in effect while the eidolon is summoned. If the summoner's eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner's normal summon monster I ability. Other than these restrictions, there is no limit to how many summon monster or gate spells the summoner can have active at one time. This ability replaces the summoner's normal summon monster I ability and shield ally
Master Summoner circumvents the limitations.
Durids have to sacrifice a spell to spontaneously cast their summons. Summoner has this as an innate ability, at 5+CHA. They do not need to sacrifice any spell slots, and if they do not have the eidelon out, there is no limit to the number of summons. These last minutes per level, not rounds.
So if a level 3 summoner with 20 Charisma wanted to, they can summon 10 x 1d3 eagles at the same time. All augmented. Then open the door to the big boss man.
Summon Nature's Ally also tends to be weaker than Summon Monster. However... Druids are still one of the most powerful classes, as is summoner. Full casting and (quasi-fullcasting) tend to do that. These guys come packing an army and a best friend too!
So if a level 3 summoner with 20 Charisma wanted to, they can summon 10 x 1d3 eagles at the same time. All augmented. Then open the door to the big boss man.Incorrect.
If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.
Cao Phen was referring to the Master Summoner I think. Slightly different, easy to mix up without stating that it is the master summoner instead of the summoner.
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Summoning Mastery (Sp)
Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + his Charisma modifier. The summoner can use this ability when his eidolon is summoned. Only one summon monster spell may be in effect while the eidolon is summoned. If the summoner's eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner's normal summon monster I ability. Other than these restrictions, there is no limit to how many summon monster or gate spells the summoner can have active at one time. This ability replaces the summoner's normal summon monster I ability and shield ally
Master summoners be banned from PFS, yo.
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Summoning Mastery (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + his Charisma modifier. The summoner can use this ability when his eidolon is summoned. Only one summon monster spell may be in effect while the eidolon is summoned. If the summoner's eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner's normal summon monster I ability. Other than these restrictions, there is no limit to how many summon monster or gate spells the summoner can have active at one time. This ability replaces the summoner's normal summon monster I ability and shield ally.
Bolding mine. They were specifically talking about Master Summoners, not just plain ole' Summoners, which are silly to begin with.
Edit: Damn, supa'Ninja'd
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nosig, it's possible that the character had it, but the situation didn't come up. Lessons of Chaldira is practically invisible; unless you audit the character, it's not likely that you'd notice the trait until someone (a) failed a save, and then (b) got her re-roll.
So it may be more popular than you realize.
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MrSin, you are correct, as the person asking the question was comparing a standard druid vs a master summoner. And yes, Carlos, they be banned to the ground, yo.Thank heavens. Hard enough to keep track of normal druids and summoners in PFS...
The summoner is the only class where, from the book it came from, all the archetypes are not legal for play. The only archetype that is legal is from the Inner Sea Magic booklet.
Edit: Evolutionist summoner is legal, but who would want to pay money to retrain?.... /sarcasm
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MrSin, you are correct, as the person asking the question was comparing a standard druid vs a master summoner. And yes, Carlos, they be banned to the ground, yo.Thank heavens. Hard enough to keep track of normal druids and summoners and conjuration wizards and summoning clerics and anyone with an animal companion in PFS...
FTFY :P
I've found that anyone with a more than one character tends to slow down play. I think that master summoners and broodmasters were removed because of this.
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Durids have to sacrifice a spell to spontaneously cast their summons. Summoner has this as an innate ability, at 5+CHA. They do not need to sacrifice any spell slots, and if they do not have the eidelon out, there is no limit to the number of summons. These last minutes per level, not rounds.
So if a level 3 summoner with 20 Charisma wanted to, they can summon 10 x 1d3 eagles at the same time. All augmented. Then open the door to the big boss man.
At higher levels, druids have far more spell slots than 5+CHA. And a non-gimped animal companion vs a gimped eidolon for the master summoner. The druid beats the summoner at his own game, yet its the summoner that has all the banned archetypes.
So yeah, LoC is strong, but being strong is not qualification enough for banning: see druids.
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If set up to where all spells are going to be summoned spells (why wouldn't you =)), you have a druid with a single summon nature ally 6 at level 11. At level 11, a master summoner has 5+CHA casting of Summon Monster 6 as a standard action, free augmentation, each casting lasting for 11 minutes (not rounds).
For total spells can be casted, a druid has more and higher levels, bit for sheer summoning power, a master summoner can drop so many creatures on to the battlefield, that the tide will turn in the matter of seconds.
In one minute, a 20 CHA summoner can summon up to 30 Large Elementals in one minute, with the lowest duration being 10 minutes (waiting for the other 9 summoning). What would most people do when the see an invasion like that? They would pray to Chaldira to save their behinds.
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I've found that anyone with a more than one character tends to slow down play. I think that master summoners and broodmasters were removed because of this.Yeah, that was my point. I didn't see the need to list every specific example.
No problem; I'm sure I missed a few myself.
Also, every druid slot is a SNA slot because of their spontaneous casting.
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I believe a druid still have to have LoS to command a companion, as well as have the tricks to tell what it can and cannot do. A eidelon has its own mental capacity to where no trick/handle animal check is needed.
1v1 in comparison of capabilities, an animal companion does have various abilities, and the eidelon can evolve to whatever the whim of the summoner is. Druids are powerful, but I have never been to a table where someone said, "Druids are too powerful", both as player or gm.
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Yeah, but what the summoner gives up compared to the druid does not make the small advantages their pet gets over the AC worthwhile. No wild shape, no 9 level spell casting, no spontaneous summons that are compatible with their main pet and the eidolon can't use cheesy ass barding. I've seen ACs with armor classes better than eidolons because of this. In fact, this seems to be true more than not.
The druid, at the end of the day, can fill the table with summons and the summoner type that could compete got banned. And now they want to ban a *trait*. When LoC makes it so my fighter can't move into combat or participate, I'll start caring.
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I've found that anyone with a more than one character tends to slow down play. I think that master summoners and broodmasters were removed because of this.Yeah, that was my point. I didn't see the need to list every specific example.No problem; I'm sure I missed a few myself.
Also, every druid slot is a SNA slot because of their spontaneous casting.
Same spell level or lower. So a level 11 will have a single summon 6 for 11 rounds compared to a summoner's 10 for 11 minutes.
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I believe a druid still have to have LoS to command a companion, as well as have the tricks to tell what it can and cannot do. A eidelon has its own mental capacity to where no trick/handle animal check is needed.
1v1 in comparison of capabilities, an animal companion does have various abilities, and the eidelon can evolve to whatever the whim of the summoner is. Druids are powerful, but I have never been to a table where someone said, "Druids are too powerful", both as player or gm.
Too powerful and often disruptive. Maybe it's an Ohio thing.
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Disruptive players aren't the result of their class. They are the result of the fact that they themselves are disruptive. You can play a summoner or druid or anything without being disruptive.
This thread was started because someone a long time ago saw a trait that was equivalent to a feat and said "boy, that looks unbalanced." That is all this thread is about. It has nothing to do with druids, or other overpowered mechanics that still exist in the game.
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Yes, but the summoner gives up his eidolon to do that in PFS. So it's 11 rounds of level 6 summon AND permanent animal companion vs 11 minutes of level 6 summon.
of course, but it does make for good utility. And yes, pfs-wise, a standard summoner has to release the eidelon in order to use the summons. Even then an eidelon has feats, with them they can get armor, similar to an animal companion. Evolution points to get natural armor, energy immunity, damage resistances, fast healing, flight, etc. Heck, at level 11, if you really want, you can make your eidelon a crappy out-of-combat healer with the right books.
Edit: I agree Walter, we derailed this a bit to far. I can go back to my previous question of do anyone checked if a player who chooses this trait actually understand what the halfling god does, and how it would affect their tactics?
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Disruptive players aren't the result of their class. They are the result of the fact that they themselves are disruptive. You can play a summoner or druid or anything without being disruptive.
This thread was started because someone a long time ago saw a trait that was equivalent to a feat and said "boy, that looks unbalanced." That is all this thread is about. It has nothing to do with druids, or other overpowered mechanics that still exist in the game.
I've heard this excuse over and over. By your logic, the master summoner should not be banned. People should be able to play them without being disruptive, right? I've now moved onto talking about qualifications for banning. I say if LoC meets them, so does the druid.
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Yes, but the summoner gives up his eidolon to do that in PFS. So it's 11 rounds of level 6 summon AND permanent animal companion vs 11 minutes of level 6 summon.of course, but it does make for good utility. And yes, pfs-wise, a standard summoner has to release the eidelon in order to use the summons. Even then an eidelon has feats, with them they can get armor, similar to an animal companion. Evolution points to get natural armor, energy immunity, damage resistances, fast healing, flight, etc. Heck, at level 11, if you really want, you can make your eidelon a crappy out-of-combat healer with the right books.
Edit: I agree Walter, we derailed this a bit to far. I can go back to my previous question of do anyone checked if a player who chooses this trait actually understand what the halfling god does, and how it would affect their tactics?
PFS eidolons don't qualify for improved natural armor feats. Another silly unintended consequence of the "no monster feats" blanket rule. The druid AC has a magic list of feats it gets to take, which includes such feats, so it is an exception.
It's not a derailment when I ask the question: what qualifies something for banning? Why the master summoner and not the druid? Why LoC and not magical linage: shocking grasp because of magi?
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I've heard this excuse over and over. By your logic, the master summoner should not be banned. People should be able to play them without being disruptive, right? I've now moved onto talking about qualifications for banning. I say if LoC meets them, so does the druid.Disruptive players aren't the result of their class. They are the result of the fact that they themselves are disruptive. You can play a summoner or druid or anything without being disruptive.
This thread was started because someone a long time ago saw a trait that was equivalent to a feat and said "boy, that looks unbalanced." That is all this thread is about. It has nothing to do with druids, or other overpowered mechanics that still exist in the game.
My logic aside, that sounds like an excellent topic for another thread.
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My logic aside, that sounds like an excellent topic for another thread.I've heard this excuse over and over. By your logic, the master summoner should not be banned. People should be able to play them without being disruptive, right? I've now moved onto talking about qualifications for banning. I say if LoC meets them, so does the druid.Disruptive players aren't the result of their class. They are the result of the fact that they themselves are disruptive. You can play a summoner or druid or anything without being disruptive.
This thread was started because someone a long time ago saw a trait that was equivalent to a feat and said "boy, that looks unbalanced." That is all this thread is about. It has nothing to do with druids, or other overpowered mechanics that still exist in the game.
Sure thing. I'm totally opposed to banning LoC by the way, because save or dies are lame in general and anything that nerfs them gets my thumbs up.
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PFS eidolons don't qualify for improved natural armor feats. Another silly unintended consequence of the "no monster feats" blanket rule. The druid AC has a magic list of feats it gets to take, which includes such feats, so it is an exception.
It's not a derailment when I ask the question: what qualifies something for banning? Why the master summoner and not the druid? Why LoC and not magical linage: shocking grasp because of magi?
At level 11:
4 - Improved natural armor evolution x2
2 - Base natural armor bonus
8 - Base natural armor bonus (by level)
2 - dex bonus (by level)
2 - Base dex
10 - +5 elven chain
10 - base ac
38 ac. Very decent for a level 11.
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With the feat, which they can gain, armor proficiency. How many of the 4 feats you want to get heavy armor is up to the player.
Forgot that improve Nat armor can be taken 3 times, so 40 ac.
Eidolons can never wear armor of any kind. Read carefully the last sentence or two under their armor bonus entry in the APG.
That said, simply casting mage armor and shield on them works out pretty well anyhow. 8 AC vs. your 10.
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With the feat, which they can gain, armor proficiency. How many of the 4 feats you want to get heavy armor is up to the player.
Forgot that improve Nat armor can be taken 3 times, so 40 ac.
Eidolons can never wear armor of any kind. Read carefully the last sentence or two under their armor bonus entry in the APG.
That said, simply casting mage armor and shield on them works out pretty well anyhow. 8 AC vs. your 10.
Ah, you are correct, sorry abut the misconception, David and Lormyr. Though with 4 feats, an eidelon can still choose something that can be just as ridiculous, like crane style/wing...
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Yes summoners are just OP, followed by gunslingers or even barbarians sometimes. How often has one faced that "barbarian or gunslinger goes, everything is dead" thing? Or had to wait for hours untill the summons guy and his ridiculous eidolon were finished and then the game was over?
There are proably as much disruptive GM´s as there are disruptive players out there. It even seems, some people made a new sport where the goal is to get some things banned they personaly don´t like, because they are so disruptive GM´s that they need to stamp their own worldview on the game in the open campaign. Afterwards people are secretly happy how they could rouse others to that and having a party at home^^
But beware. Banning lessons of Chaldira could easily lead to a global halfling uprising!"
