RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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We're moving off topic. (I'm shocked! (laugh))
Is Lessons of Chaldira a very powerful trait? Yeah.
Is it too powerful? Arguable, but I think it's more powerful than I think a trait should be.
Is it so good that everybody's going to start taking it, now that it's in the spotlight? Hard to say. Maybe, but (a) it's defensive, and aggressive traits seem more popular, and (b) it requires faith in an obscure halfling deity. So that's an impediment to any PC who wants to worship another god.
And if there ends up being a bunch of Chaldira-worshippers knocking at the door to the Grand Lodge, maybe that might be fun, too.
Should it be removed from PFS? We've done our part; now it's up to the venture officers and campaign leadership to hash out.
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I tend to (try) to make rather powergamey characters, and I don't think I'd take that trait. I'd much rather have extra class skills, or a static bonus to prop up a weaker save. I don't remember the exact math on it, but I think a reroll of a d20 works out to something like a +3 bonus on average. Personally, I don't think that a +3 bonus on one roll per day is really that more powerful than a constant +1 bonus.
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Yeah, this is the first time I've ever heard of that trait. And despite how powerful it's being described as, I'm still not going to take it.
Though reading this has motivated me to put together a halfling theme build and make her the luckiest adventurer on the planet. Still wouldn't be that dangerous, though. Maybe if I got all the 'luck' traits/feats together AND created a dual cursed oracle...
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even better
human wizard
wayang spell castor(spelling the one where MM is one less level)
magical knack
levels
wizard evoker admixuter
oracle waves or winter for slow spell revelation
dual bloood sorc, white dragon/orc
Feats spell specialization
Rhime spell
Allied Spellcaster
rod of intensify
6d4+13 slows on failed save entagles no matter what.
Give me time I might be able to find something better.
Keep in mind onc eyou get higher levels you can start doign this with fireball too.
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even better
human wizard
wayang spell castor(spelling the one where MM is one less level)
magical knacklevels
wizard evoker admixuter
oracle waves or winter for slow spell revelation
dual bloood sorc, white dragon/orcFeats spell specialization
Rhime spell
Allied Spellcasterrod of intensify
6d4+13 slows on failed save entagles no matter what.Give me time I might be able to find something better.
Keep in mind onc eyou get higher levels you can start doign this with fireball too.
That's far from the most exploitative thing I've seen in PFS.
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That is certainly not as destructive as a core sorcerer with colour spray.
In any case, the argument isn't that this is the only overpowered thing left in PFS. The argument is that this trait and the Improved save feats do very similar things, and that this trait, despite being meant to be half a feat, is much better at it.
Maybe we'll get really, really lucky, and they'll update Improved X save to something like:
You now have Good saving throw progression in this save category. If you already have a Good Saving Throw progression, you gain no additional benefit from this feat.
Heh!
==Aelryinth
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Yes color spray with a heavens oracle is way OP. Although core Colour spray does not work well past level 3 since many things are getting over level 4.
Although that combo can grow to other spells as the tri class, levels.
You could give up the cold stuff and be a gnome sin magic instead and do extra castor level damage with fire spells.
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Yes color spray with a heavens oracle is way OP. Although core Colour spray does not work well past level 3 since many things are getting over level 4.
Although that combo can grow to other spells as the tri class, levels.
You could give up the cold stuff and be a gnome sin magic instead and do extra castor level damage with fire spells.
Colour spray works on anything that is affected by mind-affecting effects. A failed save is worth at least a round of stun. That's more than enough time for an enemy to be dog-piled into submission, or to have its weapons confiscated, considering it drops them.
ANYWAY, we're not talking about your ridiculous damage build that isn't actually that ridiculous. We're talking about a trait that is more powerful than a trait should be. If bracers of falcon's aim were banned because they were too cheap for their benefit, then I would say this trait is also too cheap for its benefit.
The fact that it's not widely in use at this time is good news. That means that there are less people upset about having to find a new trait should it be banned. It's certainly not an argument that just because something is obscure, it shouldn't be considered for banning.
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"ANYWAY, we're not talking about your ridiculous damage build that isn't actually that ridiculous. We're talking about a trait that is more powerful than a trait should be. If bracers of falcon's aim were banned because they were too cheap for their benefit, then I would say this trait is also too cheap for its benefit."
I agree in theory, but I think the banhammer should be applied as little as possible. This is kind of a hard call, imo.
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This is very powerful for a trait.
Whether or not everyone is taking this or not is completely irrelevant when you study the trait on its own terms and how it interacts in the overall game balance.
I could make a trait that allows you to cast Major Image five times a day using your hit dice as caster level. It'd be overpowered in terms of game balance, but it'd likely be unpopular because the majority of players want something that makes them hit harder and faster instead of create illusions.
I'd be cool with it if it were for good aligned halflings only, but if we have to give it thumbs up or down then I say down.
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I could make a trait that allows you to cast Major Image five times a day using your hit dice as caster level. It'd be overpowered in terms of game balance, but it'd likely be unpopular because the majority of players want something that makes them hit harder and faster instead of create illusions.
Excellent point.
One of the reasons I brought this up was that Lessons of Chaldira allows you to re-roll failed saving throws. That's pretty much the only thing that kills high-tier characters in PFS. So, personally, I see saving throw re-rolls even more valuable than an extra (secondary) attack, for example. I wouldn't have created this thread if it let you cast free illusions :)
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I could make a trait that allows you to cast Major Image five times a day using your hit dice as caster level. It'd be overpowered in terms of game balance, but it'd likely be unpopular because the majority of players want something that makes them hit harder and faster instead of create illusions.Excellent point.
One of the reasons I brought this up was that Lessons of Chaldira allows you to re-roll failed saving throws. That's pretty much the only thing that kills high-tier characters in PFS. So, personally, I see saving throw re-rolls even more valuable than an extra (secondary) attack, for example. I wouldn't have created this thread if it let you cast free illusions :)
I've seen a lot of T-shirt rerolls be worse. When a 4 is needed to succeed, they roll a 3, reroll and get a 1.
In my experience, I'd say roughly 50% of the time, rerolls are worse if not the same.
This really isn't as powerful as you seem to think it is.
Is it better than those three improved <save> feats you mentioned? Sure.
But I think that's more an indictment on those three feats, than of the trait in question.
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When it comes to banning anything from PFS and I look at it like this.
1. Does it slow down game play? IN this case (Lessons of Chaldira) Nope
2. Does it allow one player to dominate a table and remove the spotlight from other players.- No
3. Have I seen "X" issue at tables - No (Not one single time so far)
4. Is "X" issue seen as a requirement to have for PC's of that build? - No
5. Is "X" issue more useful/powerfull compared to things in the same catagarory? (Traits, Feats, Spells) Yes
That's cool. That's just not how the design team operates. It can be clearly seen from the Bracers of Falcon's Aim case, for example. The answers to your questions for that item are identical: no, no, no, no, and yes.
I guess we've done our best here. I'd like to hear from a comment from Mike or the designer team.
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This can be compared to Improved Great Fortitude, Improved Lightning Reflexes, or Improved Iron Will. They have the same mechanics, except that Lessons of Chaldira can be used to any type of a saving throw, and can be used after a failed saving throw. Which means that it's better than any of those three feats. Traits should be as effective as half of a feat.
I agree 100%. Every new PC I make will have it.
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This can be compared to Improved Great Fortitude, Improved Lightning Reflexes, or Improved Iron Will. They have the same mechanics, except that Lessons of Chaldira can be used to any type of a saving throw, and can be used after a failed saving throw. Which means that it's better than any of those three feats. Traits should be as effective as half of a feat.I agree 100%. Every new PC I make will have it.
Jason, you should know I respect you very much at a player. I hope when you say that, you are agreeing with the need for this trait to be removed.
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This can be compared to Improved Great Fortitude, Improved Lightning Reflexes, or Improved Iron Will. They have the same mechanics, except that Lessons of Chaldira can be used to any type of a saving throw, and can be used after a failed saving throw. Which means that it's better than any of those three feats. Traits should be as effective as half of a feat.I agree 100%. Every new PC I make will have it.
Funny. I own the book, and haven't had a PC with it yet and currently have zero inclination to make a PC with it even after this discussion.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Just for myself, I have seven characters in active play and none of them have this trait. Granted I did not know about it, but if I had the opportunity I would not rebuild and/or take Additional Traits to get it. And I have no plans to take it with any future characters.
I don't think that it needs to be banned.
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Those bracers were so good at that price point that no archer in their right mind would EVER take a different arms slot item, period.
Yeah, there's absolutely no chance that some combination of free will, individuality, or priority variation would ever result in any other outcome.
"No archer ... EVER ... period."
Mmyep.
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One of the reasons I brought this up was that Lessons of Chaldira allows you to re-roll failed saving throws. That's pretty much the only thing that kills high-tier characters in PFS. So, personally, I see saving throw re-rolls even more valuable than an extra (secondary) attack, for example. I wouldn't have created this thread if it let you cast free illusions :)
So, you want to ban this trait because it makes killing high-tier characters in PFS more difficult ?
Note that it does so only by lowering the chance of a random PFS PC-kill (ie, bad roll on the saving throw).
I, for one, prefers that my high-level PFS characters, which I spent MANY sessions leveling and improving, do not die (and thus lose precious resources to raise) just because of a low die result on a single saving throw.
And honestly, paying a trait for this is the right price IMO.
BTW your example of extra (secondary) attack surprises me, how many PCs would take a trait that gives this extra attack ONCE PER DAY ?
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Some might argue that the trait by itself is not all that powerful. Thing is, the trait is way too powerful in comparison. Making a feat inferior should already be a warning.
Then again the trait might stay legal and eventually, maybe, the trait will be revised in some future booklet. Same thing happened with Heirloom Weapon.
Definitely going to take Lessons of Chaldira for my extra-cheesy Aasimar Urban Barbarian/Dawnflower Dervish Bard.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Let's look at some examples of feats that are worse than *any* class skill trait:
Elemental Channel - Do you really fight elementals that much?
Eschew Materials - Does having to have a spell component pouch really hurt wizards that much?
Run - I so rarely see people do the 3x or 4x run in PFS, I can't imagine augmenting it would be worth a feat OR a trait.
Eagle Eyes - I've never seen the distance modifier on perception checks come up.
Go Unnoticed - You succeed on a stealth check, but only on the first round of combat. Yay?
Leaf Singer - Oh no, I seem to always be out of range for bardic performance, and I'm always in a forest! Whatever shall I do?
Razortusk - I have never bemoaned the lack of a bite attack on my half-orc.
Shadow Strike - How many times are you flanking creatures with partial concealment as a rogue?
Stone Singer - See Leaf Singer.
Taunt - Who in Golarian loves to demoralize but doesn't have a high intimidate?
Vermin Heart - Really? This is even a thing?
This is just what I picked up from a cursory glance at the CRB and APG. I'm sure that there are a lot of other terrible feats that I could find if I went further. Just because something is better than a feat - even a feat that does the same thing - doesn't mean that it's overpowered or should be banned.