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I regularly run Labyrinth Lord games where players die with amusing frequency.
[Bad Joke] Wow that's hardcore, I've only killed characters. [/Bad joke]
Death in PFS happens. I've played 15 games of PFS and I've had one character die and get raised [another players character died as well), and then I had my first level Alchemist get hit by a longbow crit that did near max damage. So I've had 2 character deaths in 15 games played.
As a GM I've ran about 25 tables and had 2 characters pass away and need to be raised.
So in 40 tables of play I've seen about 5 character deaths.
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I have run around 70 scenarios and had 5 PC deaths in those:
- three in one scenario (season 4) - where they were overwhelmed with status effects
- another was a low leveller playing up who got hit to one HP away from death and his party weren't paying attention so didn't get to him before next round (and they could have).
- another heroically provoked an attack of opportunity when on one hit point to try and rescue someone
There was also one PC that should have died, but lived due to a misunderstanding of a rule combo (discovered long after the game). It happens.
There have also been several save or die moments in there.
My 11th level PFS Wizard has also died once in about two dozen play sessions (around a third of his sessions are GM credit).
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I have run six games so far and have not had a single death yet. Am I doing it wrong or are PFS adventures to easy? I regularly run Labyrinth Lord games where players die with amusing frequency.
Run the scenarios as written and whatever happens, happens. You should not be actively trying to make the scenarios more lethal.
I think most of us want the scenario to be challenging and interesting, but not necessarily deadly.
In my home game, I've GMed 22 scenarios and had 2 PC deaths. Both in season 3.
I've played about 50+ sessions I see one PC death about every 10 sessions. Several close calls. Only reason there weren't more deaths was pure luck.
In games that I've observed and played in, I've only had one death in 30+ sessions.
God's Market Gamble, when a BBEG ranger is pelting at characters from cover with manyshot, we had a character do a double move and get away from everybody AFTER losing some hit points (so he's down half).
His plan was to try to toss an alchemist's fire to the BBEG ranger's hide so it smokes her out, but he took several arrows on the way. He dropped, was too far away to get healing, and bled out.
The only reason he died was (1) he left cover (2) without overwatch (3) without healing beforehand and (4) without a way for his teammates to heal him as well.
The main killer in PFS is bad tactics.
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We had a TPK last week but does not happen very often. This is the only one outside last years special(where there were a lot of TPKs) that I have every seen in PFS event. I was not GMing it so I do not have all the details but for some reason a party with average level 5.5 decided to try a level 6-7 without a healer. Needless to say it did not go well....
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In my roughly 300+ PFS sessions as both a GM and player (1800+ characters), I would estimate roughly 3% (50+/-) character deaths mixed between single PC, up to tpk. Others may have varying levels of death experience, but I think the more you play (larger data set) things will level out.
If your kill rate is low, don't fret. It could be a combination of good gameplay (smart players), good party mix (classes/abilities), fickle dice, older season (0,1,2) scenarios, playing in-tier and not playing up, etc. As long as you run the game fairly and challenge the players, PC death should not be a measure of quality. Get some more sessions under your belt and see how you feel then.
Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Frederick
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Players die, it is a part of the game. Players die for various reasons. The number one reason that I have found is nothing but pure luck, dice rolls/aka critical hits. I roll all dice that the players are aware of in front of everyone (I have recently asked players to roll dice for me in front of all players). The chips fall where they fall and X3 Critical Hit weapons will usually kill on a confirmed critical hit. The second reason, that I have found, as to why players die is that they separate from the party for whatever reason and run into a second encounter. Bad move that usually results in death.
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Really, I think Rob Duncan nailed it: The main killer in PFS is bad tactics.
I have seen games with no deaths, others where almost the whole party has gone down.
A lot of it depends on party tactics and makeup, and the kind of encounters that the scenario presents.
As a GM, I have killed the same PC at least twice. As a player, I have had one of my PCs die multiple times, although the first death didn't happen until he was 8th level.
At a convention, I have seen one other player's PC die in two different scenarios, and heard that they had gotten killed again in yet another scenario. That PC wound up playing safe for quite a while, until they managed to save up enough money so that they could handle getting killed again. Sort of funny, since I had also seen that particular PC get knocked down to exactly 0 hit points during what we originally thought was going to be an RP scene.
I have seen a swarm come very close to killing an 8th or 9th level PC. Swarms that do more damage when you are about to die are a real ugly thing to see.
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Well, my characters haven't dies for a while, but last spring we did have a bout of bad luck.
First, we played Masks of the Living God, which ended in a practical TPK, one of us managed to escape but only narrowly. That was the death of my first character, who had just rwached third level.
Then, the very next scenario ended in an actual TPK, and killed off my second character in his first scenario.
But other players have had their characters killed everyone once in while. Luckily, they're either almost new so they won't be missed that much or so leveled-up that they can almost guarantee the death won't be permanent. As a funny anecdote, one character has died three times now, and is totally broke as the result.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Varies depending on the tactics of the players, the luck of the GM and all around options available to the monsters, I have played one level of thornkeep in which we had 4 PCs and suffered 6 PC deaths (still finished though).
In my time I have seen alot more PC deaths (in about 100 sessions I would say nearly 120 PC deaths) but its far more common on tables with newer players (especially in late season 3 early season 4), as they tend to focus more on their weapons than on consumables and defences.
I have also had my APL7 party play up in a mod while another APL7 party played down in the same mod and the people playing down got TPKed while the people playing up won easily.
On average my PC's start dying between level 5-11 with few deaths before (I had one PC die at 4 to a haunt and one at level 4 to dawn of the scarlet sun).
Egad. That's a ridiculously high rate of death at your table...more than 1 death, on average, per session? That's insane.
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Yeah, I have to admit that I did have a TPK for the party when I was running a grandfathered session of The Ruby Phoenix Tournament.
Since it was run under the grandfathered rules, the TPK only cost them some XP, PP and gold, rather than the linked PCs.
Then again, the TPK was a mixture of bad luck, multiple PCs failing a Reflex save to not get trapped in a Force Cage, and the PCs, being special-build 11th level characters, not having the stock of consumables that normal play and experience tends to cause one to collect.
Mainly the stuff out of the "What to Expect" type threads:
Potion of Flying
Potion of Invisibility
Potion of Gaseous Form
Oil of Bless Weapon or Align Weapon
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
Tanglefoot Bags
Alchemist's Fire
etc.
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I was at a small local convention today, and there was a TPK in the morning slot -- low level table (lots of 1st level PCs), but it was apparently mostly a case of really poor dice on the part of the players, and really hot dice on the part of the GM. (Then, in the afternoon slot, the same GM very nearly had a *second* TPK, again apparently due to streaky dice.)
I've had one PFS death myself, due to bad tactics -- in a scenario with a reputation for being TPK bait*, I saw we faced long odds, and lobbied hard for a party retreat. I let my fellow players talk me into staying, and my PC, of course, was the one who had to croak before they got the message and ran. They did grab my body before they left, and I was raised, at least. In all of the PFS tables at which I've personally played, that's the only PC death I've seen (but, then, I've played one Year 4 adventure so far).
* Said scenario is:
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Players die, it is a part of the game. Players die for various reasons. The number one reason that I have found is nothing but pure luck, dice rolls/aka critical hits. I roll all dice that the players are aware of in front of everyone (I have recently asked players to roll dice for me in front of all players). The chips fall where they fall and X3 Critical Hit weapons will usually kill on a confirmed critical hit. The second reason, that I have found, as to why players die is that they separate from the party for whatever reason and run into a second encounter. Bad move that usually results in death.
I've never had a player die at one of my tables. I imagine that would be very traumatic for everyone involved.
Of my 14 characters my first, a Paladin, has died once and been raised.
As a GM, I have killed about 5 characters in Pathfinder Society since 2008 - almost 200 tables now. I believe all but one was able to come back. Mind you, that is not counting Goblins in We Be Goblins. I've run that module about 5 times and killed about 8 including a TPK -1 once.
My numbers are probably a bit low as I try to avoid killing characters if at all possible. Several games which would have ended in TPKs were called on going over time. Others that could have been TPKs in the hands of a vicious GM were avoided by using components of the written adventure in various ways to let circumstances result in the party making it out by the skin of their teeth.
I consider it a personal failure if a character dies when the player was doing everything right.
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I agree bad tactics is number one killer in a group outside of just really bad rolls. My then 6 lvl rogue got nailed with a fireball and the GM rolled really well for dmg and for my saves I rolled a 3 and used my shirt reroll and got a 1............so I came real close to death. The cleric died and had fire resistance. Sometimes the dice say you are going down even with good tactics. Also dispel magic is evil :D lol Would not be fun if the hint of death was not there. Things will shift from it seems you are a death dealing machince to I cant touch them even when they are sucking at dice rolls. The Guys are spot on, it will even out as you go.
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I was at a small local convention today, and there was a TPK in the morning slot -- low level table (lots of 1st level PCs), but it was apparently mostly a case of really poor dice on the part of the players, and really hot dice on the part of the GM. (Then, in the afternoon slot, the same GM very nearly had a *second* TPK, again apparently due to streaky dice.)
I've had one PFS death myself, due to bad tactics -- in a scenario with a reputation for being TPK bait*, I saw we faced long odds, and lobbied hard for a party retreat. I let my fellow players talk me into staying, and my PC, of course, was the one who had to croak before they got the message and ran. They did grab my body before they left, and I was raised, at least. In all of the PFS tables at which I've personally played, that's the only PC death I've seen (but, then, I've played one Year 4 adventure so far).
* Said scenario is: ** spoiler omitted **
The same thing happened to our group at Gen Con. Same scenario, although I was unfortunately not one of the ones calling for retreat. I did cover other people, and was eventually chased away by the BBEG, taking Total Defence the whole way.
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I agree bad tactics is number one killer
In my experience, playing up is the number one killer. I see it all too often. Players get gold-fever when they see the differences between rewards on their chronicle sheets. They think about that next cool item they "need" to complete their character's schtick. Like most, I rarely kill a character who is simply the victim of bad dice. However, when you choose to play up I take that to mean you want the game to be as challenging as possible. I take off the gloves and use the enemy's intelligence, environment, and tactics to push the challenge as far as I can.
Sure bad tactics can result in PC death, especially if the player continues to use the same "bull in a china shop" tactics in mid/high-tier play that they used in low-tiers. See monster→charge becomes less advisable at higher levels where reach, multiple attacks, and special abilities are more prevalent.
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I know a Cleric character that has died 3 times. Was even brought back at the start of the adventure to continue on with us. Ive played some 30 scenarios now (and I notice people above are casually swapping out Scenario/module)and have died once, to a crit.
Having said that I have run 7 scenarios now and have had 2 pc's die in my games.
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Three Rules of Death to Accept When You Play PFS:
1) Death happens. But many times, you control how you die. If you do something not so smart, then it's obvious that you may be meeting Pharasma.
2) Death happens. But if it wasn't within your control, remember, that you can make another character.
3) Death happens. And if you play up, in any scenario, any tier, you risk the first two statements. Embrace and accept it, or don't play.
Needless to say, my philosophy about death is very simple: Death is a part of PFS life. Luckily for us, it's not real, so we always get another chance with another character. :D
Sidebar: I've had three characters die in my now 2-years in Society Play. So to answer the master question.. It happens, but not as much as everyone makes it out to be.
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Causes of death I've seen, from most likely to cause to least likely (assuming it happened as often as each other):
- GM doesn't run tactics as written (where possible)
- Deeper darkness (and what are the darkness rules?)
- Drowning
- Players using bad tactics
- Playing up goes bad
- Bad rolls
I am really careful to run tactics as written, deviating only when it becomes impossible or outrageous to follow what's written, and I find that a lot of scenarios becomes too easy when you have even a couple of optimised characters in the party when you play in tier.
The groups I play with almost never want to play up, and occasionally - and with some caution - I tell them that they could likely have played up pretty safely. It might be possibly with some challenge if they do so, but certainly not the cakewalk of getting a single character to a maximum of half-health throughout the entire scenario.
It's good that they feel like they had "enough" challenge (some players are happy to play that way), but when I know it's clearly been too easy for them, I think it's a shame they're not getting they're money's worth, and it's worse if they start talking about PFS being too easy.
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If you are running Thornkeep it is very possible to TPK your group in level 3. Out of all my games I have ran that is the only TPK I have had at my table.
Playing I have had 4 of my characters die and need raised. 3 of the 4 were when we played up and shouldn't have and the other was because I fail a Sense Motive check on my GM in Eyes of the Ten, and rerolled a save I shouldn't have.
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Thanks for every ones replies. I greatly appreciate the insight they have provided. I personally as a player and a DM prefer my games to have a greater element of risk than some of the current society adventures provide. I don’t want that risk to be “tomb of horror’s” style but definitely higher than it is now. I think I will stick to using sanctioned modules as my first experience of running Thornkeep has been a lot more enjoyable than most of the PFS adventures I have run.
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I've run close to fifty games now (almost to 3 stars) and I've had 4 character deaths and one animal companion death. (crits, sending the companion off by itself, and playing up were the culprits) I think I have probably played well over fifty games and I've lost one character permanently and had to raise another once.
@OP - I know you may feel you are doing something wrong, but run the scenarios as written, run the monsters/NPCs to the best of your ability (i.e. study their stat blocks before hand so you know all the rules related to their abilities), and everything should be fine. I know there are times I feel my players aren't feeling challenged but then after the game they relate a completely different perspective. Talk with your players about the games afterwards.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Lincoln
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So, This is where I feel bad but, First table in that I got to play at we had a complete TPK. It was on First Steps #1, and we were wiped completely in back point. Literally a few dice rolls and we got smoked. Now, this was my first game which was about 3 days ago, but I've done a few other games like this and figure I can do it.
Now, all of us realized it was a few bad dice rolls, but that was 4 deaths in one sitting. We also had a lot of fun playing the Module. It is something to be enjoyed.
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Recently while starting the EotT arc one of the players commented on how his character has died once at each level and how he is going for the 12th. When he died after the first combat, he completely left the table.
I'm not sure what his reasons were for why the character died so much (bad tactics, playing up, poorly built).
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So, This is where I feel bad but, First table in that I got to play at we had a complete TPK. It was on First Steps #1, and we were wiped completely in back point. Literally a few dice rolls and we got smoked. Now, this was my first game which was about 3 days ago, but I've done a few other games like this and figure I can do it.
Now, all of us realized it was a few bad dice rolls, but that was 4 deaths in one sitting. We also had a lot of fun playing the Module. It is something to be enjoyed.
That scenario (First Steps Part 1) has a reputation for the final fight being a killer- it depends partially on die rolls, but a lot on the GM who ran it. In particular, there are actions that one of the mobs in that fight that a GM might choose which are not part of the scripted tactics... which can lead to a TPK. So, don't take that one as an example of "typical" PFS play. And one of the PC deaths I had GM'ed occured on a lucky crit in that fight.
EDIT- If you want to read more about First Steps Part One (SPOILERS).
In the 30ish scenarios I've played in, I've seen three PC deaths and many PC deaths and/or TPKs avoided through blatantly obvious GM pity.
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Last week I went to a local PFS game and this issue came up. Now understand I am hearing this secondhand. One of the players was talking about a experience he had at a recent convention. There was a GM there that had a reputation for killing players. He apparently sat down at the table and jokingly told them they were all going to die. He ended up with a TPK, the party managed to get rezzed and he then killed them all AGAIN. Apparently they guy had a rep at that convention.
I understand the players do stupid things. I understand that there are days that the dice hate you. I am relatively new to PFS having played in about 19 scenarios so far. In that time I have seen ONE death, basically bad tactics, who did get a rez.
IF this story is true I have one question for many of the Venture Captains and for Michael Brock: Why would someone like this be allowed to remain in society? This is someone who is blatantly killing people for kicks. IMO people like this need to be loudly and publicly ejected from the society. This makes the whole society look bad.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I concur with most of whqat's been said. I've had four total party kills, maybe a half-dozen sessions where over half the party died and the others fled, and about 20 or so individual deaths.
In most of the disastrous failures, the party had decided to play up. In the others, players were making bad choices in unforgiving modules /scenarios.
Oh, and then there was Thornkeep. Almost a TPK on the first level and twice almost a TPK on the third level. If the NPCs hadn't gotten very unlucky -- "I know there are numbers on this d20 above 8 somehwere" -- none of my parties would have survived Level 3.
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IF this story is true I have one question for many of the Venture Captains and for Michael Brock: Why would someone like this be allowed to remain in society? This is someone who is blatantly killing people for kicks. IMO people like this need to be loudly and publicly ejected from the society. This makes the whole society look bad.
If you know the people involved, you should tell them if they feel unfairly and maliciously treated by this GM, they certainly should complain to their local VC about it. Otherwise, it is hearsay and not actionable imo.
There is almost always more to stories like this. I can't help but wonder if the first TPK wasn't due to some bad choices by the party... which were subsequently repeated in the second iteration of the encounter. Or the GM could have had it in for them... or both... or who knows what else happened there. Like my father used to say, "There are three sides to every story- his side, her side and the truth."
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Last week I went to a local PFS game and this issue came up. Now understand I am hearing this secondhand. One of the players was talking about a experience he had at a recent convention. There was a GM there that had a reputation for killing players. He apparently sat down at the table and jokingly told them they were all going to die. He ended up with a TPK, the party managed to get rezzed and he then killed them all AGAIN. Apparently they guy had a rep at that convention.
That doesn't surprise me at all. A couple years ago, an APL 7 party decided to play up with 1-32: Sniper in the Deep. There were two deaths in the Act One bar fight. They got better, pressed on, and well, you can guess the rest.
It happened again at a home game a couple months ago. APL 3, the party decided to play up in 3-09: The Quest for Perfection—Part I: The Edge of Heaven. Four out of five of them died on the pathway, their bodies were brought back down the mountain, people paid for raise dead, and then they went back up.
But now they were still playing up and had substantially less resources (the druid's new companion hadn't learned any non-bonus tricks, most everybody still had a negative level). When they hit the top of the mountain, they were just out-matched. (They also made a couple minor tactical errors.)
So, here's a take-home lesson: if the middling encounter is too deadly for your party, maybe you should cut your losses and not try for the climactic villain.
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One thing I forgot to add. In the example given the GM went off of the tactics as written and made up his own on the fly.
Just to note that tactics are one area that the campaign rules do allow GMs to modify, as needed for the situation.
Of course, the intent of that rule is to allow GMs to adapt to PC groups or situations that make the printed tactics invalid (or highly suboptimal).
BTW, I've had any number of GMs tell me, before the session, "you're all going to die". Never have I had a GM who was actively breaking the rules in order to accomplish this.
One thing I forgot to add. In the example given the GM went off of the tactics as written and made up his own on the fly.sigh. what can we say.
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"Don't do this?"
Soluzar is fully aware that this is not what you do. I'd reckon to guess that's exactly why the Soluzar mentioned it.