Looking for some simple tips.
GMing RotRL right now and we're quite a ways into things, and its generally going well. My only problem seems to be that the PCs are too successful!
I never thought that I was necessarily bad at combat strategy, but my players have pretty optimized characters, tight tactics, and they're steam-rolling through encounters that should be challenging.
I've done some fudging of the baddies hit points on the fly just so I can draw combats out longer than a single round, but I'm not really comfortable with that.
I love letting them have their shining moments and feeling like true heroes, but I'm worried without some challenge the game will become lackluster and boring.
So, experienced GMs, any hints about how to amp the challenge level, without necessarily fiddling with stat blocks too much?
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First and foremost tell us something about your party. How did they generate their stats, what level are they, what kind of characters? What class/races?
Challenging a party depends heavily on what they can do. For instance a published adventure assumes a party of 4 15point buy characters, with roughly, among them there is one guy who fights, 1-2 guys who fight in a secondary role, one guy who casts arcane magic, one guy who casts divine magic and one guy who is skillfull. (Fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric).
If you have a party of a paladin, druid, summoner, and barbarian challenging them will be very different then if you have a fighter, rogue, bard and monk.
A couple standard suggestions you will hear - add difficult terrain (no charging), places for cover, increasing numbers of enemies, using templates. Personally my favorite is adding interesting templates and not just advancing them. It still will require statblock fiddling but does so in a more interesting manor.
Just one simple example - instead of simply advancing skeletons to give them more HP and damage, make them burning skeletons (fire aura, additional fire damage on hit, explode on death).
The advanced template helps.
Substituting feats in place of the ones the book gave the bad guys also helps.
Sometimes you might be better off just replacing bad guys with different ones that work well together.
Increasing the number of bad guy is also an option. Now I try to keep them at the same CR so I might have to drop the CR of each creature to make that work.
Party setup:
20 pt buy
blaster caster (arcane bloodline sorc - who tears things to bits)
melee rage prophet
Gypsy (3PP - huge spell selection - but at times unreliable casting)
Oracle...with a golem buddy.
13th level right now.
So, heavy on the magic - if a monster goes last in the initiative count usually he's lost 3/4 if not more of his hit points before he even gets a chance to take an action.
So high CR single BBEGs get torn down way too fast for the fight to be exciting. I think adding in more enemies and dropping the CR of the boss a bit might be a good idea.
My group is having the same experience since transitioning from the original to the anniversary edition. One of the players dubbed our last session "The Munchkin Steamroller" I'm planning to re-blend some of the converted adversaries from the original edition (esp the BBEG's) into the mix. Many of the conversions in the PRD seem more challenging than the "official" update. It's not fiddling so much as wholesale replacement in these cases.
Hope this helps...
Tom
Party setup:
20 pt buy
blaster caster (arcane bloodline sorc - who tears things to bits)
melee rage prophet
Gypsy (3PP - huge spell selection - but at times unreliable casting)
Oracle...with a golem buddy.13th level right now.
So, heavy on the magic - if a monster goes last in the initiative count usually he's lost 3/4 if not more of his hit points before he even gets a chance to take an action.
So high CR single BBEGs get torn down way too fast for the fight to be exciting. I think adding in more enemies and dropping the CR of the boss a bit might be a good idea.
Dropping the boss CR so he can have minions helps a lot. Having readied actions to disrupt spells will also help.
Having some bad guys run away so they can tell the boss what to expect is also an option.
Don't worry about giving them more hit points. If that's what you need to do to make them a bit more durable against a well-ordered party, that's fine. Adventures are supposed to be OK for "average" groups, not particularly bad nor particularly good. Make adjustments.
I would also suggest beefing up the numbers of creatures a small amount. If there are 4 giants, add a 5th. If the BBEG is alone, give him a servant or two on hand to offer a little more balance between your side's actions and the PCs' actions. If you think that might be to much, minionize the servants a little by cutting the servants' hp down to 1 or 2 hp per die. They'll still soak an action or two but shouldn't hugely over-build the encounter.
I'm finding that running RoTRL is pretty much this: Start an AP book, and it's a few easy fights working up to a powerful 'mid-boss' and then a wicked powerful end boss.
** spoiler omitted **
Party setup:
20 pt buy
blaster caster (arcane bloodline sorc - who tears things to bits)
melee rage prophet
Gypsy (3PP - huge spell selection - but at times unreliable casting)
Oracle...with a golem buddy.13th level right now.
So, heavy on the magic - if a monster goes last in the initiative count usually he's lost 3/4 if not more of his hit points before he even gets a chance to take an action.
So high CR single BBEGs get torn down way too fast for the fight to be exciting. I think adding in more enemies and dropping the CR of the boss a bit might be a good idea.
Sounds like you've been playing this for a while. Has this been going on for a while, or is this something that started recently?
Also, is this problem more limited to single baddy encounters, or does it also occur with encounters with several enemies?
My group has 5 players and is is Carrion Crown but to challenge them even a little I have always give my monsters max HP instead of average. I do have the monster die early though if it takes a hit for more then average damage.
Deadlines help as well. My group has learned that they need to get through things fast. I will often only allow one rest in dungeon if they hope to accomplish their goals. That often means 12-18 encounters before a rest.
Its been happening off an on for most of the campaign, but since the power curve on arcane caster really hit here in the last couple levels its gotten worse.
It definitely tends to be single baddy encounters. The boss that all powerful gets wittled down rapidly, whereas two or three mid challenge CRs hold their own better.
I think deadlines will be a definite help! I'm thinking about more random/roaming monster encounters as well. The 15 min adventuring day certainly makes it easy for them not having to worry about spell casting resources.
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Yup, if the problem is especially with single enemy fights, it does tend to be good to add in a few minions. I tend to have the same issues with groups I run for a lot (I'm running Skull & Shackles), especially like if you said the BBEG goes last in initiative.
Just make sure the minions are relatively weak, depending on how many you feel like throwing in. I find that two or three enemies with CRs about 3 under the party (usually the weakest thing in the dungeon) work well. Works especially well if one is blocking their route to charge, and/or others move to melee spellcasters--flanking them if possible. Just remember this only really makes sense if the enemies are intelligent--players will rightly get upset if mindless skeletons become tactics masters.
Some extra low level minions can help. Also when the BBEG is a magic user, what about pre-casting long duration spells? (I have seen that is a few of the newer modules, but not in the rewritten RoTPL it's self), Maybe a few low cost magical defenses can be added, for example the BBEG has just used his last 10th level mage armor scroll that morning.
Multiple foes is most important -- at high level, PCs have lots of one-shot or knockout abilities.
Misdirection and terrain defenses should be the next step. Cover, obstacles, charge lanes. Even minions too low to affect the CR -- say, a couple of level 5 warriors, or a pair of hell hounds backing up an ice devil --can be effective blocks to insta-death. Blocks and spells and sentries that give foes a round or two to prepare and buff can make a big difference.
Boosting enemy stats should be the last option, but more hit points is easy to do and doesn't affect much. Potions, if the enemies have warning, can boost their stats a bit.
And more enemies mean more chances to roll 20s. I had a few level 5 barbarians at the top of a ladder, and one of them critted with a raging power attacking greataxe. That brought the lead 11th level PC to within 2 hit points of death. Lucky for him the others missed.
Its been happening off an on for most of the campaign, but since the power curve on arcane caster really hit here in the last couple levels its gotten worse.
It definitely tends to be single baddy encounters. The boss that all powerful gets wittled down rapidly, whereas two or three mid challenge CRs hold their own better.
I think deadlines will be a definite help! I'm thinking about more random/roaming monster encounters as well. The 15 min adventuring day certainly makes it easy for them not having to worry about spell casting resources.
Never ever have single enemy encounters. Seriously, if a module suggests it, dont do it. It is never a good idea, and any mechanism by which one could make it still be a solid interesting encounter would be even better served if it still wasnt a single enemy encounter.
For quick and dirty, apply the young template to the enemy (weakening it) then add in a double (bringing the cr up by 2). You now have 2 monsters/npcs for the party to fight, which reduces the whole 'monster fails one save against powerful casters and is already beaten or debilitated significantly' issue. But regardless always add more enemies to encounters. AND make sure those enemies are truly able to threaten individual party members (dont make them cannon fodder).
To amp up BBEG's in combat you can do a couple of things separately or in conjunction:
1) 25%-50% less hit points and add 25%-50% more damage
2) Add in a bunch of 1 hit point "mooks" or "minions" like 4th ed D&D - This gives the illusion of a lot harder combat as they suddenly are facing 10-12 of the critters, they don't hit that hard and are real easy to kill, but it makes the players waste more of their precious resources.
2a) Waves of combat with the mooks/minions trick - make them your fodder!
3) Give the BBEG multiple initiatives in a round so he can go 2-3x per round. This gives him more action economy against the PC's so that he can move around and attack more w/o getting blasted to 0 in 1 round.
4) Use terrain to your advantage - see Tucker's Kobolds
5) Use traps (magical and non-magical) to slow them down.
thanks guys
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I know this doesn't directly address your issue, but one thing I have to remind myself to do sometimes is to stagger the enemies' entrance into combat. Saving some for the second or third round of a fight changes the battle.
Add to the CR. A 4 party 15 pt buy and balanced party is what the CR's are written for. 20 pt buy and super optimized would be a plausible +1 to the CR.
Also, retool the BBEG's (and the monsters in general) stats to be 20 pt as well. I found that was the single biggest thing I had in this exact AP.
Are you using the Anniversary edition? That one is noticeably harder for PC's.
Simply add a few encounters to the mix and reintroduce the risk of the wandering monster.
If your PC's are breezing through most encounters, that usually isn't a bad thing, per se; it (usually) means they're having fun, playing the heroes they envision their characters to be.
However, there is a problem if your players fall into the routine of the 15-minute adventuring day: meet monsters, unleash spells, feats and the kitchen sink, rest, repeat.
By adding more encounters, you will keep that same sense of heroism while slowly whittling down the party's resources so that the next encounters will provide a bigger challenge.
Use wandering monsters for PC parties who decide to rest before you think they've earned it. This will reintroduce them to a sense of danger and vulnerability.
If the above solutions don't solve your problem, something else seems to be going on... Yes, you could start adding templates etc as suggested somewhere to increase CR here and there, but if you stick to the recommended CR for the adventure's APL (and you can even exceed that number by one or two points in my opinion) and simply add more encounters, you should be golden.
I've another thread somewhere that introduces the concept of Attrition Rates to encounter design and so far it works very well helping me design challenging adventures consisting mostly of easy-to average encounters.
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
Sometimes things like that happen, although I would be a bit suspicious if they did something like you described in the clock tower fight that someone was reading ahead, as that is a lot of assumption to spend that much in resources.
Not saying that is the problem, but that solution would make me suspicious if I was running a published adventure.
A big agree on increasing the adventuring day, particularly with the party full of casters. Adding more encounters is way harder on spellcasters than fighter-types, and conversely, single encounter days are waaaay easier for them.
Spellcasters can blow apart any one encounter. The trick is when they're wary of another one around the corner. If they're nervous about the next monster, then they can't just throw all of their resources at one fight, which proceeds to make each individual fight more challenging.
That being said, be careful with the wandering monsters if you're using the recommended xp track. If you hit them with too many random encounters, they'll eventually end up leveling sooner than the adventure wants them to, which will lead to them yet further demolishing everything in their path. This happened to our Kingmaker game, and confused/frustrated the hell out of our GM for a while until we realized what was going on. His initial response was to throw larger and larger random encounters at us, which caused us to gain more xp, and, well... you can see the pattern.
Viscount K: Well remarked about those wandering monsters! It's true these should be used sparingly to avoid PC leveling up too soon. It's the threat of the wandering monster that's important - not necessarily the monster itself.
If you need to adjust the balance, you can always switch to a slower xp advancement track, or cut xp awards by a set amount to redress the balance until the point where challenges become meaningful again.
I'm not a big fan of the latter, but it would work. You could explain to the players that as they're having such an easy time, there's little actual experience to be gained from the fights - perfectly justifiable!
My group is having the same experience since transitioning from the original to the anniversary edition. One of the players dubbed our last session "The Munchkin Steamroller" I'm planning to re-blend some of the converted adversaries from the original edition (esp the BBEG's) into the mix. Many of the conversions in the PRD seem more challenging than the "official" update. It's not fiddling so much as wholesale replacement in these cases.
Are you using the Anniversary edition? That one is noticeably harder for PC's.
Funny how things differ between groups. ^^
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Question: Are your players bothered by this? Do they want a bigger challenge, or are they enjoying breezing through the storyline?
Remember, the game is about having fun, If your players are having a blast right now, why change that?
My group is having the same experience since transitioning from the original to the anniversary edition. One of the players dubbed our last session "The Munchkin Steamroller" I'm planning to re-blend some of the converted adversaries from the original edition (esp the BBEG's) into the mix. Many of the conversions in the PRD seem more challenging than the "official" update. It's not fiddling so much as wholesale replacement in these cases.Are you using the Anniversary edition? That one is noticeably harder for PC's.Funny how things differ between groups. ^^
HAH! Maybe it was just my GM that MADE it harder!!
Our GM is kicking our asses so far, quite soberingly so. ^^
I find that there are a lot of rules that don't always get enforced.
1) number of hands. I've seen too many use one hand for a shield, one for a weapon, and one to open the door. Clerics are the worst, wizards second.
2) action types. No, you cannot run over there and pour a potion down your buddies throat this turn. You can draw a potion, and move next to him.
And you can only do that if you have a hand free, so what are you dropping?
3) Prepared spellcasters need to prepare in advance. Write out all of your spells, please.
If they're steamrolling an encounter, you can just beef up the hitpoints or have "reinforcements" arrive. Make sure your creatures are playing like they should. Maybe they start hearing of the party's exploits and start carrying scrolls and equipment that counters them? Maybe throw in some hazards that will make fighting them more difficult? Some rubble to keep the fighters from charging and maybe a shrieking shroom or thunderstone to disrupt the casters.
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Difficult terrain is a good idea, as are reinforcements. Since the group seems pretty spell-heavy, may I also recommend anti-magic zones? Also, you can never underestimate the value of traps. If you need help, I fondly recall a series of books called Grimtooth's Traps. They had all kinds of wild, imaginative, and brutal ways to slice, dice, crush, eviscerate, and humiliate even the toughest of dungeon delvers.
Difficult terrain is a good idea, as are reinforcements. Since the group seems pretty spell-heavy, may I also recommend anti-magic zones? Also, you can never underestimate the value of traps. If you need help, I fondly recall a series of books called Grimtooth's Traps. They had all kinds of wild, imaginative, and brutal ways to slice, dice, crush, eviscerate, and humiliate even the toughest of dungeon delvers.
That's good advice. I think the only thing that's really posed a threat to them has been traps/environmental stuff. Things that aren't surpassed by their well-honed combat tactics!
Have they encountered:
the disjuntion trap?
that should set them back a peg or two
also
we had much the same issue going on in our group, we'd take things out in surprise rounds, let alone full rounds. And yet Karzoug himself nearly wiped the floor with us. His ability to get the jump on you and use time stop tilts the final fight dramatically in his favor, so don't be too distressed, your ending should remain in tact.
I'd like to reiterate the earlier comment on waves of enemies.
When combat first breaks out, the players see three enemies. Their tactics adapt to this. Next round, when two more different type or enemies arrives, it disrupts their plans - especially if the new arrivals come in from an unexpected area. And then next round, another one or two come in. It makes the players feel overwhelmed and somewhat caught off guard.
Obviosly you don't use this all the time, but sometimes its easy to get caught in the rut of one room, one fight.