as a fellow magus, i would recommend that you use ranged attacks, cuz magus can only do spell strike and range, and if u can, try to get monsters that can lower his int score and str score, cuz those are vital to a magus
Also, try to get monsters that have spell resistance. If possible, you can even try to make him fall into traps that go against him... and if possible, cna we get all of his ability scores... and well... everything about him?
From,
Magus lv5
Having little other information to go off of, the size of the party makes me wonder. Is the Magus getting properly challenged with that many PCs? Magus thrive on spike damage and if their resources aren't being pushed with multiple encounters they can seem to be combat monsters. Is he getting by without expending many resources during most encounters and then going nova on the BBEG, that can give the impression of being OP..
8 players is an ENORMOUS party where I come from, the game and APs assume 4 players so right there even if nobody was optimized you'd still have trouble challenging them without making serious adjustments to every encounter.
|
as a fellow magus, i would recommend that you use ranged attacks, cuz magus can only do spell strike and range, and if u can, try to get monsters that can lower his int score and str score, cuz those are vital to a magus
1. A dervish dance magus won't be as heavily affected by strength damage as other classes.
2. Intelligence damage will drive other players catatonic before dropping the magus.
Any player that optimizes will seem overpowered when playing in a non-optimized group. Class does not change this.
As for countering the magus without destroying the entire group; depending on build, that could be very difficult. It could be very difficult depending how highly optimized he is compared to everybody else.
on the contrary, an optimized dervish dancer magus will have dumped str quite a bit, a low str means you drop him down very far and he will be quickly encumbered, and eventually paralyzed.
The absolute BEST thing you can do is to make sure you avoid a 15 minute adventuring day like the plague. Magi eat that adventuring style alive. Make sure resources get stretched. Make sure the Magus can't simply drop everything he's got into 1 or 2 encounters a day by making sure there are significantly MORE encounters than that.
The additional benefit in that party is that even after a few encounters, virtually everyone else can keep going at much closer to peak capacity than the magus as long as they have the HP to do so (except maybe the Oracle depending on build, the Witch who may run out of spells, but will still have hexes to fall back on, and maybe the paladin/barbarian if they burn through smites/rage too quickly; the rogue, fighter, and gunslinger can literally go on all day). The Magus simply cannot (unless its a Hexcrafter anyway).
More encounters per day ought to bring him down to their level and them up to his simultaneously. And if he still wants to nova, fine, but he's going to be nigh useless for the other 5 encounters that day.
Depends on the optimization. Some dervish dancers will have a 13 strength to qualify for power attack.
Personally: I have a 13 strength and alter self memorized. While I typically use the alter self to raise my dexterity, I could choose to raise strength instead.
'
well it wouldnt be "optimized" because you could alway use those 3 (or 5 in some cases) points else where, giving you a 10 or an 8 str, and a higher stat in dec and/or int (or con for that matter)I would likely have at least a 12 str myself, however Im very unlikely to make a DD magus to begin with, unless I was In LoF, or an elf spelldancer.
Definitely sounds like this is more a matter of "I have one power gamer and seven casual gamers" than a class-specific problem.
Most of the classic responses to that apply, but in this case it might be good to play, somewhat, to the weaknesses of the class to compensate. In this case, lots of enemies is a good option; as has been pointed out, the thing the magus is best at is burst damage on a single target. Nothing's stopping them from throwing fireball around a few levels later, but it's still a step. Likewise, making sure to have plenty of encounters per day will force a magus to husband his limited resources.
At the same time, you don't want to make that player feel like he's been victimized or denied his chance to shine... at least not too much. It might be wise to sit down with the player and discuss the difference in playstyles; in some cases it's a matter of players not fitting in, in others, it's about assumptions as to the table style.
I normally optimize pretty hard, but in some cases I've felt that it would overshadow the group and make the GM's job harder, so I intentionally did not optimize as much... or chose to optimize something less impactful... or a concept that's less combat-focused. For example, I have a blaster wizard, who does not have a sorcerer dip. He's pretty optimized for a straight wizard blaster, but he's a blaster, and he hasn't gotten that extra 2 damage per die from a crossblooded sorcerer dip.
anything requireing a fortitude save :-) its kinda low with a magus :p
|
Anything with DR/slashing or DR/bludgeoning, since dervish dance makes you treat the scimitar as a 1 handed piercing weapon. Off hand I can think of skeletons and zombies, but it'll make your witch player unhappy. Ideally you want some living foes with DR/slashing or DR/bludgeoning to let your witch player have some fun too.
|
|
Depends on the optimization. Some dervish dancers will have a 13 strength to qualify for power attack.
Personally: I have a 13 strength and alter self memorized. While I typically use the alter self to raise my dexterity, I could choose to raise strength instead.
'
well it wouldnt be "optimized" because you could alway use those 3 (or 5 in some cases) points else where, giving you a 10 or an 8 str, and a higher stat in dec and/or int (or con for that matter)I would likely have at least a 12 str myself, however Im very unlikely to make a DD magus to begin with, unless I was In LoF, or an elf spelldancer.
Optimized is not min/max.
Optimized is maintaining maximum effectiveness in the largest possible number of scenarios.
Min/max is being "the best" at one scenario, usually at the expense of everything else.
That said: diminishing returns means the character in question would give up 3 points of strength and power attack for an extra 1 point of dexterity or intelligence. A poor trade that would decrease overall effectiveness.
Hit him with some devils or demons- one of those is immune to electricity, I forget which.
Just remember that the fellow chose and optimized his Magus because he likes that style of play- risky gishing with random nasty burst damage. Don't specifically cripple him just so he'll be as mediocre as you feel the other party members are. Instead, make him cover his weaknesses- low hp, no ranged capability as described... etc
And concentration checks! Give some enemies Disruptive etc and see how he likes it :)
Depends on the optimization. Some dervish dancers will have a 13 strength to qualify for power attack.
Personally: I have a 13 strength and alter self memorized. While I typically use the alter self to raise my dexterity, I could choose to raise strength instead.
'
well it wouldnt be "optimized" because you could alway use those 3 (or 5 in some cases) points else where, giving you a 10 or an 8 str, and a higher stat in dec and/or int (or con for that matter)I would likely have at least a 12 str myself, however Im very unlikely to make a DD magus to begin with, unless I was In LoF, or an elf spelldancer.
Optimized is not min/max.
Optimized is maintaining maximum effectiveness in the largest possible number of scenarios.
Min/max is being "the best" at one scenario, usually at the expense of everything else.
That said: diminishing returns means the character in question would give up 3 points of strength and power attack for an extra 1 point of dexterity or intelligence. A poor trade that would decrease overall effectiveness.
You're arguing about a subjective term.
|
|
You're arguing about a subjective term.
Yes I am.
I included my personal definition to clarify my personal stance, followed by a statement the character would be less effective dumping strength using either metric due to diminishing returns. Strength 13 can equate to increased DPR, even for a dervish dance build.
Anything with DR/slashing or DR/bludgeoning, since dervish dance makes you treat the scimitar as a 1 handed piercing weapon. Off hand I can think of skeletons and zombies, but it'll make your witch player unhappy. Ideally you want some living foes with DR/slashing or DR/bludgeoning to let your witch player have some fun too.
Dervish Dance doesn't change the type of damage a scimitar does. They still do slashing damage.
To quote the SRD: "When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
Emphasis mine. It is treated as a piercing weapon for feats and class features that require one. Nowhere does it actually change the damage type of the scimitar.
Regardless, the point remains the same, that appropriate DR can put a hurt on Magi since they are mostly forced to fight one handed so their damage per strike tends to be lower. At least without dropping a SG or whatever, but as long as you've got enough combats per day he won't be able to continue doing that forever.
Make him manage resources and choose when to nova. He'll still get to feel good about pwning high priority targets, but the rest of the time, the others should outshine him.
Also, its NOT the fact that this guy is using DD that's making things a problem. There's no need to fixate on that element at all. Besides, if he's using DD, and you guys started at level 1, he certainly had some growing pains to get through since DD builds are pure hot garbage before level 3. They're only level 4; he's probably just enjoying finally being useful. (Although if you guys started at 3+, its kind of a powergamer move to go with DD since you get to skip the growing pains.)
Anyway, to reiterate: do more encounters per day and things will most likely work out fine.
|
I don't agree with the people giving methods where you go out of your way to screw the magus. I do agree with the people saying to negate attempts at a 15 minute adventuring day. Do this with time limits, drawn out fights, and fights that go in waves. Don't be afraid to stack reinforcements on mere minutes after they have finished with a previous fight, and if they are resting in a lair, have them attacked while sleeping.
The biggest issue with a party of eight is that their APL is off the charts compared with their level. I would advise splitting them into two groups of four, as you will find that much easier to adjudicate, and it will mean the party with the magus will have fewer resources between them, making the 15 minute adventuring day even less of an issue.
Dot
|
Hey, guys,
I was wondering if you could help me out. I just started DMing Pathfinder again after doing 4e for a while. I have eight players - a rogue, a fighter, an oracle, a paladin, a witch, a barbarian, a gunslinger, and a magus. It's this last player that I'm having a problem with.
The guy playing the magus is a power gamer and has gone with the Dervish Dance feat build. The entire group is currently level 4 and will be level five after next game. The rest of group has a more casual style of play, so they haven't done as much research or planning as the magus. The problem this creates for me is how do I combat the magus without wrecking the rest of the players?
Anyone have any good suggestions?
Thanks,
Storyist
I know a bit off topic, I was just glad to see that it was the Magus and not the Gunslinger. :0)
I have never played a Magus, but I do play with one (crit build) we are level 9+ now. I have to add my vote for more encounters. Or mix them up a bit, front load the encounters.
Could always ban dervish dance. It's from a fluff source.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Could always ban dervish dance. It's from a fluff source.
Best way to really turn a player off. You approved it at the beginning, you allow it to be run thru the entire camoaign. Banning a concept after the fact is garbage.
Could always ban dervish dance. It's from a fluff source.Best way to really turn a player off. You approved it at the beginning, you allow it to be run thru the entire camoaign. Banning a concept after the fact is garbage.
[/QUOTEI agree it would be better to do beforehand. But sounds like the GM didn't know what he was getting into. However, it is bigger BS if one player ruins it for everyone else IMO.
Could always ban dervish dance. It's from a fluff source.Best way to really turn a player off. You approved it at the beginning, you allow it to be run thru the entire camoaign. Banning a concept after the fact is garbage.
I agree it would be better to do beforehand. But sounds like the GM didn't know what he was getting into. However, it is bigger BS if one player ruins it for everyone else IMO.
Dervish Dance isn't the problem here. Banning it will just make him rebuild into a Str build, and the same "problems" will persist (and he'll likely end up with a more powerful Magus in the long term). Not to mention the animosity it will likely cause.
Its an issue with the class itself when allowed to blow through resources without penalty to nova through encounters. If you cut down the ability to nova, you solve the problem.
The two ways to do this (best used in conjunction):
1) More encounters per day
2) Encounters with more enemies per encounter, particularly when "high-value targets" are not easily or immediately identifiable/target-able.
|
|
Just going to point out that electricity isn't the only thing to watch out for. A Magus' cold damage is pretty significant too.
With the "Close range" arcana, he could be using the snowball spell for damage equal to that of shocking grasp, no spell resistance, and a stagger effect tacked on.
Is that true? I've wondered about this myself, but doesn't it work on rays only, or am I not reading it right?
I agree with most of what I see here. Arcane Pool abilities, Grit abilities, Smite Evils, Highest level spells, etc. are extremely powerful, but they can only be used a few times per day. Make sure to have several encounters per day, and fight more creatures rather than stronger creatures.
|
Could always ban dervish dance. It's from a fluff source.Best way to really turn a player off. You approved it at the beginning, you allow it to be run thru the entire camoaign. Banning a concept after the fact is garbage.
I agree it would be better to do beforehand. But sounds like the GM didn't know what he was getting into. However, it is bigger BS if one player ruins it for everyone else IMO.
Dervish Dance isn't the problem here. Banning it will just make him rebuild into a Str build, and the same "problems" will persist (and he'll likely end up with a more powerful Magus in the long term). Not to mention the animosity it will likely cause.
Its an issue with the class itself when allowed to blow through resources without penalty to nova through encounters. If you cut down the ability to nova, you solve the problem.
That's isn't even really the issue here. The issue is not the class, the build, or even how the game is being run. The issue is you have 1 optimizer with 7 casuals. The optimizer could take a fighter and STILL wreck the game. This isn't an in came issue, it's an out of game one. Talk with the magus player and ask him to please tone it down.
you dont need to ask a dedicated player to town down. just chalenge him more. if he is the one wrecking havoc most enemies wil target him annyway. and put him near death a few times or poisen/sicken/fatigue him more than the others so the others get a chance to get some glorry.
|
|
you dont need to ask a dedicated player to town down. just chalenge him more. if he is the one wrecking havoc most enemies wil target him annyway. and put him near death a few times or poisen/sicken/fatigue him more than the others so the others get a chance to get some glorry.
Yes you do. Because what happens when the optimizer goes down? The casuals get ripped apart by even the mooks. And when the baddies have +20 to hit so you can hit the optimizers doing 20 damage a hit, the non-optimizers will take ONE hit and go down.
And if you pick on the ONE guy, how is this fun for ANYONE? The other players don't get to shine...they get to sit in the back while the one guy gets picked on to death. The guy getting picked on is...well getting picked on.
No seriously, in games like this, there is only ONE answer...get the optimizer to tone it down...at least until the other players can build up their system mastery. He should help with that, but until they do, he needs to tone it down for the sake of the game.
I didn't say pick on him, I said CHALANGE if you optimize you know you got a chance of becoming prime target and if you get nocked out cold once a day because you aren't careful enough then that is your problem. a GM can tone him down any way he sees fit no reason to don't allow him to enjoy the game just as anyone ells. optimized players are most of the time the people who do the most effort as well in the role-play not satisfying his needs is just as brutal as not allowing the other people some face time.
I am such a player and my GM does exactly this my barbarian died because of it. and I am fine with that because I took the risk but in doing so the rest of the party won the day.
That's isn't even really the issue here. The issue is not the class, the build, or even how the game is being run. The issue is you have 1 optimizer with 7 casuals. The optimizer could take a fighter and STILL wreck the game. This isn't an in came issue, it's an out of game one. Talk with the magus player and ask him to please tone it down.
I totally agree with you in general terms. I also think that if an optimizer is disrupting the balance of a game its incumbent on them to tone it down some, and if they don't its probably selfish and immature to continue their disruptive behavior (not looking to start an optimization ethics debate here...sorry if I offended anyone).
That said, in this particular case, I was pointing out merely that the optimizer is playing a class notorious for its lack of staying power in a party full of non-resource limited characters. Seems an easy solution to simply force him to manage resources by having more encounters with more enemies per encounter. The others will have consistent performance, and he will still have his moments to shine if he picks his nova spots carefully, but he simply will not be able to bulldoze every encounter if he has to manage his resources.
Theres no need to specifically go after him, or preferentially and repeatedly target him with attacks aimed at his weaknesses, or throw enemies resistant to his game at them (all options, just not to be relied upon). The biggest weakness of all (staying power and resource management) is built right into the class, and the other PCs don't share that achiles heel. (Granted there are Magus builds with staying power, but with the information we have been provided, it doesn't strike me that the OP's player is playing one of them.)
If you only have a couple of encounters per day, especially with a small number of tougher enemies, you're playing right into what a Magus is built to do best. And if the player is an optimizer he knows how to do that schtick well. So its not a class issue per sey, but it IS a class thats particularly well equipped to completely destroy a 15 minute adventuring day. No 15 minute day, no problem.
I never meant to imply an OOC solution shouldn't be sought though. That's almost always the best course of action when there is a disconnect between a player, the GM, and/or the rest of the group. Only that there's such an elegant in game solution if the player doesnt want to back down or if things are still problematic after they do (which I suspect would be the case if short adventuring days are the norm and remain so).
ps there is a difference between noobs and players who are just playing it less serious than an optimized player.
I could if it was necessary like MTcityhunter implies. it is not the question and it is very much possible to alow each of them to play as they like and enjoy the game you nub.
|
|
I could if it was necessary like MTcityhunter implies. it is not the question and it is very much possible to alow each of them to play as they like and enjoy the game you nub.
So you can balance an encounter PERFECTLY so that the 7 casuals can shine WHILE the optimizer is challenged most of the time? I would LOVE to see a sample of an encounter day where this happens. Otherwise, your just being full of it at this point. And lets even assume that you could theoretically do this...can the OP do it? Because if he can't...you advice is UTTERLY USELESS.
There is a point in skill disparity where you just can NOT play the same game together without skill adjustments. Toning down is a LOT easier then learning skills. Playing a FPS as a skilled player vs a bunch of casual players is fun for NOBODY (unless your a griefer...your not a griefer now are you?) unless the skilled player tones things down to challenge himself and give the casuals a chance to do stuff. The same is true of this game. If you wanna play with the casuals as a optimizer, you HAVE to tone it down for them. And since there are 7 of them and one optimizer, if the optimizer wants to be a griefer...well that's what the ban button (in our case kick out of group) is for.
And yeah way to stay classy there at the end. Seriously, if your gonna insults somebody, at least have some wit. Your lack of creativity seriously makes me doubt you can succeed in my first challenge.
|
|
While I can't condone Darkflame's name calling, he may have a point. It all depends on how much 'spotlight' those casuals want. If they're just looking to enjoy an adventure together and tell a story, then it may not matter if the Magus runs into few legitimate challenges. The encounters don't have to threaten him, so long as they keep him busy long enough to make sure everybody has enough time to have some fun with their own opponents.
Granted this all falls apart if the casuals are looking to compete on similar footing with the optimizer, in which case he should tone it down.
The problem is that when the encounters aren't legitimate for the optimizer, he is bored, he cake walks the encounter which makes everyone else kinda bored as well. When it is, the casuals will do quick math, figure out that the critter has more HP then they can possible do in 10 rounds, will pretty much hit and one shot them and that is I have been told not very fun. I get the feeling that the gap between the casual and the optimizer is quite large from what the OP has posted so far...I could be wrong on this...in which case, yes you can kinda finesse the encounter so everyone can do their thing...in which case, the casuals aren't really very casual or more likely the optimizer is pretty bad at optimizing.
Also I don't really care that he took a potshot at me...seriously, if you get bent about being called a nub, you shouldn't be on the net...however, the lack of wit is very disheartening. If your gonna insult somebody, do it well so we can get some bloody amusement out of it damn it.
There are degrees to optimization and casual play and we have no idea to what degree any of the players at this persons table are actually playing at and anything we infer are only assumptions since the Original Poster has not given any more specific information about anything. There is certainly not enough to make assumptions about the optimizer in question such as any supposed elitism which I believe is what Darkflame was responding to when he called you a nub Cold Napalm. Either way let us all try to remain civil please.
On optimizers throwing the game off:
I've been wondering about this for a bit. My usual group has one particular player who loves to find the most broken build he can and push it to the limit, "just to test it". The rest of us are fully capable of minmaxing if we need to, but mostly like to play more flavorful characters that don't specialize nearly as strongly. This leads to all the various problems that have already been mentioned in this thread.
Is there already a thread devoted to this topic? I'd love to discuss this, and see how other groups handle it, without further hijacking this thread.