Being someone that pretty much never multiclasses I'm interested in those of you out there that do. I've always felt that taking a second class will dilute my initial one.
For example, if I play a Barbarian, as soon as I take a different class I'm going to worry about having enough Rage rounds to last the day, I'm also going to deny myself access to Rage Powers, which I also normally use my Feats to get more of. Then there are hit points, and so it goes on.
SO my questions are...
Do you multi-class?
If so, what with which class?
And most importantly Why? What is it that you are getting that will compensate you for the obvious losses of sticking it out with one class?
You have to think not just about what you lose, but also what you gain.
For instance, if you took a level of fighter for your barbarian, yes, you'd slow down your rage rounds, rage powers, get slightly less HP, etc. But in return, you'd get an extra feat, proficiency with tower shields and heavy armor, and an extra boost to your Fort saves. Depending on how you're building him, the benefits might outweigh the losses.
For myself, I have two multiclassed characters in PFS right now. One is a Ninja 2/Fighter (Lore Warden) 2. It slowed down my sneak attack, skill points, and ninja tricks, but it let me get my Dervish Dance and Improved Feint several levels earlier, boosted my Fort saves, added weapon proficiencies, and gave me some nice new class skills.
The other is a Cavalier 1/Oracle 4 (whom I've admittedly never played yet). The Cavalier gave me more weapon proficiencies, a decent challenge ability (Order of the Tome), armor proficiency for my mount, a bonus feat, and a few miscellaneous bonuses on top of that. I did lose a level of spellcasting, but this character is more martial-focused anyway, so I got more of what I wanted.
RDN Has it right. There are often times certain things you want from a specific class that are worth the hit to your primary class. My Divine Hunter took 5 levels of Gunslinger in order to use a gun instead of a bow, and get Dexterity to damage. This makes hitting VERY easy, and with an Infinite Sky enchant on my weapon from Ultimate Equipment you don't need to worry about reloading.
Generally most gun wielding characters don't need more than 5 levels of Gunslinger, so they choose different classes for their various bonuses.
Mystic Theurge requires levels in both Cleric/Oracle and Sorcerer/Wizard. Rage Prohpet requires Oracle and Barbarian levels.
There are a number of reasons to multiclass, and usually you gain more than you lose.
my fighter took two levels of barbarian (urban) i think it was worth it. i got uncanny dodge great since with armor training dexterity provides a big ac bonus even in heavy armor. plus 4 strength, and the ability use furious weapons, and the superspitious power. and nice rp value.
I really don't understand why people like Superstitious so much. If I'm the healer and you don't like my heals, why would I bother casting them on you? Besides that - you don't trust magic so should not want to drink potions (unless you somehow, non-magically, make them yourself). Good luck surviving. These are logical consequences of your choice of feat, not arbitrary in my opinion.
Having said that, I do like the idea of the urban Barbarian multiclass side-step. You do miss out on two levels of favourite class bonus, but that was probably worth it.
There are - let me guess - 5.000 different builds posted on these boards. 3.000 of them are multiclassed and 2.500 of these profit from multiclassing - so just look at these and you will see why multiclassing can be strong - especially for martial characters.
MoMS was already mentioned, Fighter (weapon master) is an amatizing dipp as well for lots of martials as 4 levels give you weapon spec, weapon training +3 (gloves of duelling) and 2 feats.
Achemist can be a great dip, barbarian, idk, there are so many good choices.
Barbarians can dip into oracle to gain access to rage-cycling - what is really nice depending on the build, DD's or Oracls focussing on melee might dip Pala for proficiencies, divine grace, smite and saves - bla, I dont even want to try to make a list, there are so many options
I really don't understand why people like Superstitious so much. If I'm the healer and you don't like my heals, why would I bother casting them on you? Besides that - you don't trust magic so should not want to drink potions (unless you somehow, non-magically, make them yourself). Good luck surviving. These are logical consequences of your choice of feat, not arbitrary in my opinion.
Having said that, I do like the idea of the urban Barbarian multiclass side-step. You do miss out on two levels of favourite class bonus, but that was probably worth it.
Well the reason why people like superstitious is because, if you are a fighter and you need an in combat heal, the fight is not going well for you, so the occassions you need it, should not come up too often.
in the game i play what i fear more than anything are will saves. In my opinion for a fighter being able to shake off a nasty will save effect, will have in the long term and overall, a greater positive effect, than always having to roll for a heal spell.
Of course i use superstition with common sense, i wait for my haste buff before i rage, but once i'm buff, my attitude is, it dies before i die, and im better serve with superstistion for that purpose.
I really don't understand why people like Superstitious so much. If I'm the healer and you don't like my heals, why would I bother casting them on you? Besides that - you don't trust magic so should not want to drink potions (unless you somehow, non-magically, make them yourself). Good luck surviving. These are logical consequences of your choice of feat, not arbitrary in my opinion.
Having said that, I do like the idea of the urban Barbarian multiclass side-step. You do miss out on two levels of favourite class bonus, but that was probably worth it.
Infight healing sucks. Thats why. Superstitious is AMAZING, just insanely powerful and wohoo.
edit: too slow:S
Being someone that pretty much never multiclasses I'm interested in those of you out there that do. I've always felt that taking a second class will dilute my initial one.
For example, if I play a Barbarian, as soon as I take a different class I'm going to worry about having enough Rage rounds to last the day, I'm also going to deny myself access to Rage Powers, which I also normally use my Feats to get more of. Then there are hit points, and so it goes on.
SO my questions are...
Do you multi-class?
If so, what with which class?
And most importantly Why? What is it that you are getting that will compensate you for the obvious losses of sticking it out with one class?
When I multiclass, I try to keep classes that somewhat complementary Rogue/Ranger, etc. Except for that campaign where I picked a new class every level...
And to be honest it is more about character development than DPR.
@ the OP"
I don't do it unless I feel like I have to. I can RP without giving up power. As an example I wanted to play an inquisitor with trapfinding so I took 2 level dip into urban ranger. I think it was a 2 level dip anyway.
My first character was a Sherlock Holmes type character. After level 1 rogue, I took a level of Ranger because we were mainly in the wilderness. Healing skill became critical. Never finished the game, the game was a 2 hr drive each way and the ref was a min/max munchkin type.
I think what you do and how you do it depends upon the campaign. I STRONGLY urge that you discuss the direction of the campaign; whether its table top version of WoW, Tolkein, Steampunk, or Housewifes of Cheliax; and what makes sense for what you want to RP in the campaign.
Scott, wake up and make a saving throw.
I rolled a 5.
You're dead! OK, go back to sleep!
As has been touched on/said previously, I almost always only do it when it adds really great flavor to the RP, or just feels very right.
Mechanically, however, there are a lot of really great Prestige Classes for casters. Many casting prestige classes increase your casting ability as you level up, usually only sacrificing one or two levels. So in the end you still get to keep your all-important level 9 spells, as well as getting some really cool benefits for whatever PrC you're taking.
A fighter could take 1-4 levels of rogue, and for the cost of 1 BAB, he'd get a bunch of class skills and points to put into them, along with a better reflex save, sneak attack, etc.
Conversely, a rogue could take a few levels of fighter and toughen himself up considerably, if he decides he wants to focus more on fighting.
A level or 2 of barbarian would add to your speed, class skills and hit points, and let you nova in a big fight. A lot of classes have a cool capstone ability at 20th, but most campaigns don't get that far, and if they do, you still spend most of the game in the other 19 levels. Having some versatility isn't a bad thing.
I play a Skull and Shackles game in which my wizard took a level of rogue. He's so much better at so many things, it was worth it. He's now got ranks in 27 skills at 5th, and is great at fixing things on the ship (3 craft skills at 9), and surviving if he needs to make a swim check (4), disable device (14), etc. Last session, he unlocked a door, which saved us a lot of spilled blood, installed 2 ballista on our ship, and fixed a broken one.
He lost a level of wizard, which hurts, but he's so much more than that, now, and he's a real help to the party in lots of situations where a typical wizard wouldn't be. We'll see if that really hurts him at 20th.
Actually a wizard is the last class I'd dip with - you can do everything a rogue can a lot better after some levels anyway, so just to have more skill points at low levels I would not dip rogue - but I guess that depends on what kind of player you are.
I miss the Rage Mage, if PF rewrote it in a book please tell me what book it is in. And no the Rage Prophet does not count. The only reason for it not counting is I prefer arcane over divine.
I had a Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue once. It was in dnd but I dont think the character would be all that much different. Few things scare me more then a raging sneak attack. Maybe not the stats, just the idea of it.
Actually a wizard is the last class I'd dip with - you can do everything a rogue can a lot better after some levels anyway, so just to have more skill points at low levels I would not dip rogue - but I guess that depends on what kind of player you are.
At 5th, he's taking on a lot of jobs, and doing them well. That lets the rest of the party do well at theirs, too, since they don't have the extra 5 skill points per level and all the skills he has to play with. Works great for our party. He saved his own butt a few times, too (acrobatics 8), which, luckily, meant no one else had to get him out of trouble.
He'll be casting Haste at 6th, when a sorcerer would. It works out fine for our party's particular composition. I wouldn't multiclass wizard lightly, but it all came together for this crew.
Like I said, it remains to be seen whether or not that lost level of wizard will screw him at 20th.
The question is whether it bothers you when you notice some levels later that the one level of rogue you got now doesnt contribute anything anymore as you could cover all the skills it gave you with spells and all you got in the end is the lack of one CL.
If this doesnt bother you, fine - wizards are the most versatile class in the game - just the ultimate powerhouse - they will still be ok if one level behind.
Does S&S go all the way to 20? Will you ever know?
The question is whether it bothers you when you notice some levels later that the one level of rogue you got now doesnt contribute anything anymore as you could cover all the skills it gave you with spells and all you got in the end is the lack of one CL.
If this doesnt bother you, fine - wizards are the most versatile class in the game - just the ultimate powerhouse - they will still be ok if one level behind.
Then he'll make a skill check, and save his spell slots for contributing in battle like a sor/wiz does, rather than casting Knock or something. If he can't open the door, then yeah, he can use a scroll. Hasn't happened, yet.
We've got a bard, cleric, fighter, ranger and a summoner/sorcerer. Somebody's got to keep the ship afloat. That's his job, along with the usual wizard stuff in combat. The level of rogue made it possible.
The reason I multiclass is I want a martial character that can also do some magic, like the old RPG video games characters could.
I am willing to give up some BAB and HP but not a lot. I like to take a level or two of Barbarian then go 4 levels of Magus or cleric.
1. Barbarian
2. Magus
3. Magus
4. Magus
5. Magus
6. Fighter (Lore Warden)
7. Fighter (Lore Warden)
8. Magus
9. Magus
10.Magus
11.Fighter (Lore Warden)
12.Fighter (Lore Warden)
13.Fighter (Lore Warden)
14.Fighter (Lore Warden)
15.Magus
16.Eldritch Knight
17.Eldritch Knight
18.Eldritch Knight
19.Eldritch Knight
20.Eldritch Knight
This gives me 4th level spells, and I only loss 2 BAB.
I get 18 feats, using gear to boost the fighter's weapon training class feature.
So I will be able to cast up to 4th level spells, be in my mithral Breast plate armor with a base speed of 40 feet, have an attack as good as a full BAB thanks to weapon training. With a wand of Infernal Healing I am my own healer and a back up for the party.
Starting stats with 20 point buy, race half-elf
Str 15 +2 race
Con 14
Dex 15
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 7
I like to take a 4 lvl dip with rogue. It brings in some extra options for in and out of combat to spice up my favorite (yet severely underpowered) core class. The saves really help out as well.
A lvl or two of sorc goes well for ninja as well. And a ninja/ paladin makes a scary shadow dancer.
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For example, if I play a Barbarian, as soon as I take a different class I'm going to worry about having enough Rage rounds to last the day, I'm also going to deny myself access to Rage Powers, which I also normally use my Feats to get more of. Then there are hit points, and so it goes on.If so, what with which class?
Take Extra Rage when you multi-class to make up for not taking more levels in Barbarian.
My two current favorite ideas for multi-classing Barbs:
Barbarian & Cleric (growth domain). Growth domain allows you to enlarge as a swift, and adds enlarge person to your spell list.
Barbarian & Oracle of Battle, then Rage Prophet
Personally, I find multiclassing fun for several reasons:
First, it makes you much more intimate with your character then you would get if you just picked a class, slapped on an archetype, and called it a day. I personally find it much more fun to sort through the game's various abilities and figure out cool ways to piece them together to build a character I enjoy playing. Its honestly my favorite aspect of the Star Wars Saga PRG; how powerfully fun Multiclassing is. Of course, that game runs into the opposite problem as Pathfinder. Multiclassing in Star Wars is SO potent that you're a fool if you don't Multiclass.
Luckily, Pathfinder doesn't punish multiclassing much unless you want to be a multiclass spellcaster. The current system of spellcasting is laughably outdated in how punishing it is to spellcasters. Its probably why you saw the rise of ridiculously powerful spellcasting Prestige Classes in 3.5 to begin with; the designers knew they needed something to bait the world's wizards and clerics and druids into being absolutely terrible for a few levels (see — levels 1 through 7 typically). The ironic part is that most of these problems would be solved if the game moved to using base attack bonus and a spellcasting equivalent (let's call it base spellcasting bonus) in place of class level or caster level in some instances. I could write an entire thread on this topic, but I digress.
To answer the OP's question, multiclassing works best when you're doing it for a specific combination of abilities to build a functional character that is designed to be an effective interpretation of a character. To give an example, I have a cavalier / fighter character whom I talk about ALL the time who is completely designed around being the group's utility. Its a three-man-band and I have a magus in the party, so I don't need to blow stuff up. Instead, I used my cavalier order to get braggart (Order of the Cockatrice) and then pumped my levels in fighter to get as many different utility combat feats as I could sink my teeth into. Improved Feint, Antagonize, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise, everything. What I ended up building was a character who uses his Intelligence and Charisma in combat more than his Strength, so I picked his race and designed his background accordingly. Overall, he's a lot more fun because I was able to make a character with a clear role in a party and the skills he needed to accomplish this role.
For any of you wondering what race I picked, it was kitsune. Which has been an absolute BLAST to roleplay for storyline reasons. The Shapechange ability makes for some great story moments; especially if you're playing in an area where kitsune aren't well known.
I multi to get the character I want.
Currently I have a character who is a priestess of a LN death god, who uses a scythe to trip and slice her enemies. To get this, I want her to look like a dancing twirling whirlwind of death, but to also be spooky and kind of creepy in a friendly way. :) Think a cross between Wednesday Adams, Mr. Rogers, and The Grimm Reaper. :)
To do this, I did one level of cleric, 2 levels of monk. This got me crusader's flurry (flurry with a scythe) at level 3. Then, I am adding Monk at 4 and 5, but then adding a level of Minhir Savant Druid at 6. This get's me the ability to see undead, ghosts, spirits, and ley lines, adding to the spooky value. THen from there on, I'll do 2 monk 1 druid or cleric for each 3 levels.
I often drop a level of Bard on a character.
You gain: d8 hp, 6+Int skill points, all social as class skills, UMD as class skill, all Knowledge as class skills w/+1 bonus and the ability to make checks untrained, good cantrips and 1st level spell options, Inspire Courage, countersong and distraction (which are very underused in my experience).
If I have decent to high charisma, sometimes I'll add a second level.
You gain: d8 hp, 6+Int skill points, additional rounds of performance, additional spells known/spells per day, versatile performance (increase ranks in 1 skill to benefit 2 skills), well versed (not great, still good).
My first character was a Sherlock Holmes type character. After level 1 rogue, I took a level of Ranger because we were mainly in the wilderness. Healing skill became critical. Never finished the game, the game was a 2 hr drive each way and the ref was a min/max munchkin type.
I think what you do and how you do it depends upon the campaign. I STRONGLY urge that you discuss the direction of the campaign; whether its table top version of WoW, Tolkein, Steampunk, or Housewifes of Cheliax; and what makes sense for what you want to RP in the campaign.
Scott, wake up and make a saving throw.
I rolled a 5.
You're dead! OK, go back to sleep!
Housewives of Cheliax; more dangerous than Rappan Athuk.
I often drop a level of Bard on a character.
You gain: d8 hp, 6+Int skill points, all social as class skills, UMD as class skill, all Knowledge as class skills w/+1 bonus and the ability to make checks untrained, good cantrips and 1st level spell options, Inspire Courage, countersong and distraction (which are very underused in my experience).
If I have decent to high charisma, sometimes I'll add a second level.
You gain: d8 hp, 6+Int skill points, additional rounds of performance, additional spells known/spells per day, versatile performance (increase ranks in 1 skill to benefit 2 skills), well versed (not great, still good).
Can you give some example of the classes you've dropped a Bard on? Was it at low, middle or high level?
To answer the OP's question, multiclassing works best when you're doing it for a specific combination of abilities to build a functional character that is designed to be an effective interpretation of a character. To give an example, I have a cavalier / fighter character whom I talk about ALL the time who is completely designed around being the group's utility. Its a three-man-band and I have a magus in the party, so I don't need to blow stuff up. Instead, I used my cavalier order to get braggart (Order of the Cockatrice) and then pumped my levels in fighter to get as many different utility combat feats as I...
Sounds interesting [I'm not looking for anything broken, just fun] can you post the full build please?
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One note to all: The Barbarian was just an example. I'm interested in any multi-classing you guys do!
Can you give some example of the classes you've dropped a Bard on?
How high above the target were you? Did the Bard or the other guy survive? ;)
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Can you give some example of the classes you've dropped a Bard on?How high above the target were you? Did the Bard or the other guy survive? ;)
I was sooo gonna put "and did it hurt" in my post!
Bard dip works with alot of things... 1 lvl within the first 5 lvls of almost any melee class will get you the dragon disciple PrC. Almost any dervish dancer can get their style plus all the other goodies from a 1 lvl dip. Paladin 4 with oath of vengeance makes a great melee/ support bard. Fighter gets alot from a bard too: saves, skills, wand access, and the like.
Inquisitor dips are nice too, especially for the bane ability, more so if you get a bane baldric.
2 levels of inquisitor gets you:
D8 HP, Many class skills including the knowledge skills used for identification of a monster, 6+int skills, bab +1, 3/0/3 on final saves, 4 0-level orison spells and 2 1st level spells, Domain/ inquisition, Judgment 1/day, Wisdom added to Identifying monster skill checks, +1 to intimidate and sense motive, Wisdom to initiative, Detect alignment, +1 to tracking
With the bane baldric I can bane my weapon for 7 rounds a day.
The major highlights are of course to the wisdom modifier to iniative and skill checks for monster info, and bane. The domain/ inquisition abilities can be pretty useful or powerful depending on which one.
A level of Monk dip is almost always worth it if you are willing to lose a single BAB or spell casting level.
Good saves accross the board.
Free TWF.
You are always armed and threaten.
You gain a bonus to AC when unarmored equal to your wisdom (very nice for druids in wildshape, or empyreal sorcerers, or any other wis caster when not wearing armor).
You don't even have to be lawful due to Martial Artist archetype.
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I multiclass a lot to make martial characters. I do this to gain ability's from each of the classes. Why still keeping a main them for the character.
Here are a few examples.
Dwarf Light Infantry
Paladin3/Rogue3/Fighter (Lore Warden) 6
Paladin brings
Good saves, Immune to Fear, Immune to Diseases, Use Cure Wands, and Smite Evil 1/day.
Rogue brings
Class skills, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack Dice, and Evasion.
Fighter (Lore Warden) My main class
Good skill points per level, Weapon Training, Maneuver Mastery, and Fighter only feet's.
Dwarf Scout
Ranger6/Rogue6
Ranger brings
Two Weapon Fighting with out dex required, Use Cure Wands, Tracking, Favored Enemy, Out door skills.
Rogue brings
Sneak Attack Dice, Evasion, Trapfinding, Rogue Talents, and Social Skills.
Lore Warden does not give Weapon Training.
Dude... monk/paladin/synthesist. AC through the roof!
yea lore warden, are pretty good. the thing they give up is medium and heavy armor, which you get back with a paladin dip. those guys pretty scream multiclass me, the one i made, took a level of armored hulk, though paladin might have been better.
Grizzly mentioned Inquisitor for Bane, but 5 levels isn't so much a dip as being your primary class unless you're pretty high level. Along the same lines though, I like the Grey Gardener prestige; it's essentially Inquisitor that gets full (iirc) casting progression from another divine class.
For Synthesist I thought there were BAB issues, as you replace your BAB with the eidolon's and the eidolon's is only based on your Summoner level.
They are Fighters so they get weapon training, and armor training. Weapon training is not replaced for a lore warden. For the Lore Warden Armor training 1 is replaced with Maneuver Mastery, Armor training 2 is replaced with Know Thy Enemy.
Wooooooowooooo
thanks!
<3
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Fighter is my most often multiclass. You can always use an extra feat and +1 BAB/+2 Fort. And if you feel you can delay your other options, another level gets you more.
Monk is also good for the sheer number of bonus feats in the first two levels.
Sorcerer is good for a few minor tricks (prestidigitation at will is always a good RP tool) as well as no longer needing UMD for arcane items. It's also very easy to justify.
Personally I dont like multiclassing. If My concept doesnt neatly fit into a single class, I'll usually look for a new one, or create one to make it work. I have nothing against mutliclassing, particularly since pathfinder has made it a real choice instead of the default approach, I just really like seeing the progression of abilties and like the self contained and organized nature of a single base class.