Goblin Squad Member
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Runnin' Down a Dream
One final note for this week: We're really pleased with all the discussions the last several blogs have generated on the message board forums. We're interested in your ideas for additional topics, and I want to encourage you to let us know what you'd like us to write about in upcoming posts.
Your feedback is invaluable!
And Rich Baker in the thread: Let's play a guessing game... suggestions summary:
- Kyras Ausks - "As weird as it may sound I would really like to know what the first ten minutes will be like. IE. what decision could we make at creation and how will we be greeted in to the world."
- Nihimon - "I'd love to hear the team's latest thoughts on sub-Roles (Druid Bear forms, Wizard Specializations, Sorcerer Bloodlines, etc.)"
- AvenaOats - "Tab-targeting, Bestiary"
- Valandur - "formation combat, settlement management & maintenance, instancing, what ways will players be able to interact with NPC mobs of similar alignment?"
- Tuoweit - "I'd like to see more detail on what you expect the skill trees to look like. Also, I'll +1 Ravenlute's "Spells!" How do they work within (and outside of!) the combat system?"
- Skwiziks - "I'm very curious about the way Archetypes and Skills will play out."
- The Wiseman of the Wilds - "How settlements and NPCs will operate and their relationships would be nice, short Q&A-catch-up per blog."
- Sepherum - "I'd like to see a blog addressing the status of animal companions, mounts, npc workers, summoned/controlled creatures and other 'friends' of chars in the game."
- Harad Navar - "I would like to see a blog about how the interaction of characters with a settlement will work at EE, and how do they see that "escalating" with time."
Ah nice Avena! Was just thinking we needed a thread to post our suggestions ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd be happy to hear more details on large formation combat and seiges.....types of formations, numbers of troops required, siege equipment expected to be available, terms of a settlements turnover or destruction.
Alternatively, how about lists....I just posted some lists elsewhere, but I'd like to start getting an idea what the first year or two of training will look like for my character(s). Lists of crafting skills, military skills, harvesting and refining skills, magical skills, interpersonal skills, skills for the alternative archetypes (expert, aristocrat, etc...).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to read a blog going into some detail about the design's intentions regarding guild/company/settlement support.
The settlement UI, in particular: how do the town leaders set up their laws, banish individuals, accept members? How do they set up trainers, and how do they regulate training?
Is there a taxation system in settlements and if so how is that to work?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I'd love to hear more about the magic system - how will magic user weapon sets (spellbooks, holy symbols) work? Will there be distinct tiers for offensive spells in parallel with weapon tiers? How do saving throws and armor elemental resistances interact? What thought has gone into peaceful uses of magic so far - for example settlement buffs or alarm spells for harvesting?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why is team evil inherently handicapped? GW very clearly stated that over time evil would not be able to achieve the same standards of trainers and perks available.
Wouldn't this lead to a huge handicap over time?
I thought we went over it. If I remember, Evil has more leeway to do whatever they darn well please. Are they mad at someone for taking the good loot, and you know you can take him, and don't care? Stop being a LG sissy and go shank that guy for that +1 Cool Sword.
---I'm interested in how settlements are built (I was thinking similar to strategy games where you place things on a grid, and would get bonuses for having reasonable placement such as buildings next to roads, the smith next to the refinery. I'm thinking that buildings should take up a bit of space around them for walking, so that someone doesn't just surround the training hall by walled structures and prevent you from accessing the training hall's services.)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I would also like a blog about high level design principles for the client and UI. One of the things I liked best about WOW was the endless creativity of the modding community. Whether you liked minimalist or information rich displays, or had a visual impairment, someone had built something to suit you. And if not you could build it yourself. I'd guess that more total man-hours were spent on the UI by the community than were spent on the game itself by the dev team.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to hear GW's take how PFO will NOT turn into a fantasy version of Eve Online, where most people operate solo (even though it is supposed to be a social game) and no one trust anyone at all due to all the backstabbing and screwing each other over all the time.
Actually very few people purely play solo. They are usually on coms with others or have a fleet just one jump behind them. As for the backstabbing... thats just human nature. When there are shared resources or group access to "stuff" eventually someone will steal it.
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I would like to hear more about skills. In particular Leadership, Healing, and other support skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to hear GW's take how PFO will NOT turn into a fantasy version of Eve Online, where most people operate solo (even though it is supposed to be a social game) and no one trust anyone at all due to all the backstabbing and screwing each other over all the time.
GW can only hope PFO will be as successful as EVE Online. But, I seriously doubt it will capture the sense of excitiment and danger that EVE has when you enter "unsafe" zones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to hear GW's take how PFO will NOT turn into a fantasy version of Eve Online, where most people operate solo (even though it is supposed to be a social game) and no one trust anyone at all due to all the backstabbing and screwing each other over all the time.GW can only hope PFO will be as successful as EVE Online. But, I seriously doubt it will capture the sense of excitiment and danger that EVE has when you enter "unsafe" zones.
I think the excitement and danger will be very present. There will be plenty of Chaotic Evil guys running around looking to slit your throat. Its guaranteed in a sandbox game like this. Whats great in this though, is there will be Good guys that look to protect the innocent... You dont have that in EvE... Those guys are usually destroyed quick or kept in the corner. What was the region? Providence that had CVA? They had an open non-pirate system but they were contained to a small area and only kept the area because of friends (who werent neutral friendly.)
I really think PFO will be able to pull it off quite well. Players will make it work from both angles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds, specifically Foot Steps.
Considering its the most constant sound you hear in MMORPGS, it would be much appreciated if its more than the same sound file played over and over.
(bare, leather, chain, plate, hoof, etc) with diminutive sound levels from stealth or additional ones from movement speed, weight and terrain.
I loved being able to hear someone coming before seeing them in UO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Especially after the thread on pickpocketing and stealth, I would like to hear more about the development of the Enforcer flag.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've got two but they're probably much later down the road:
1. "Body Builders only?" I understand we're all in a more "rugged" time line and the art direction it's all based on is pretty "athletic" folks but I'd like to know how "Cookie Cutter" we're going to be? I mean will my non-combat transport guy look like an adventurer in civilian clothes or can I really just look like a normal guy or a pudgy successful merchant? Can I get fatter as I get more wealthy? :)
2. "Oxen R Us" So I want to move large heavy objects from point A to point B and/or move large hordes of Dragon's loot from the horde to the hideout. How is this system working? Right now I know folks won't be able to carry a lot on their person as they want transports to matter but I kind of would like to see how this works. Again this is a much latter post as it would probably require UI to show how I can move large amounts of things or how large things are "slotted" or what have you. How encumbrance/size is shown and such. (I'm guessing a lot like EVE)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds, specifically Foot Steps.
Considering its the most constant sound you hear in MMORPGS, it would be much appreciated if its more than the same sound file played over and over.
(bare, leather, chain, plate, hoof, etc) with diminutive sound levels from stealth or additional ones from movement speed, weight and terrain.
I loved being able to hear someone coming before seeing them in UO.
Now that you mention it a blog about sound (effects, music, etc) in general would be great. Seconded on the footsteps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A few that were mentioned above Rich Baker's request (guesses) in that thread:
- Carbon D. Metric - "The social aspects of the game, chat features, groups, and companies."
- Ravenlute - "Spells!"
- Dakcenturi - "Pictures from there "Major milestone presentation"
- Nihimon - "Druids, specifically sub-Roles where a single "Class" really has multiple Roles it can develop."
- Mirrel the Marvelous - "Animating the Dead and why it's Awesome!"
- Being - "The current vision for character creation/development; alternate: monster escalation types"
Got to point out, spells is very good request...
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Another suggestion or two...
The tentative development timeline for things like alternative skills, fishing, shipwright, things that aren't critical like blacksmith or woodworker. Also would like to see you guys timeline for such things as settlement buildings reflecting racial, or area style, adding the ability to enter buildings, where say, the NPC mob faction system is within the development timeline.
I'm also curious as to if you ever plan on making the grunt NPCs visible?
Obviously any info given would be subject to change as development proceeds. I ask just to have a general idea of where these things are placed on the master timeline.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The tentative development timeline for things like alternative skills, fishing, shipwright, things that aren't critical like blacksmith or woodworker.
These might be secondary, but I think they add sandbox diversity to interact with the world, creating sub-cultures of various interests.
The tentative development timeline for things like alternative skills, fishing, shipwright, things that aren't critical like blacksmith or woodworker.These might be secondary, but I think they add sandbox diversity to interact with the world, creating sub-cultures of various interests.
I totally agree :) it would be kinda cool to become a known shipwright that people seek out for the characters skill in shipbuilding. Being able to catch small fish on the shoreline, and big fish out in deep waters is something I don't believe has been done in a MMO before. I think it would totally rock to be able to pile on a boat and go catch some 400 lb. fish! Would need a taxidermist then! LoL ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I totally agree :) it would be kinda cool to become a known shipwright that people seek out for the characters skill in shipbuilding. Being able to catch small fish on the shoreline, and big fish out in deep waters is something I don't believe has been done in a MMO before. I think it would totally rock to be able to pile on a boat and go catch some 400 lb. fish! Would need a taxidermist then! LoL ;)The tentative development timeline for things like alternative skills, fishing, shipwright, things that aren't critical like blacksmith or woodworker.These might be secondary, but I think they add sandbox diversity to interact with the world, creating sub-cultures of various interests.
OOOOO +1 for this. Deadliest catch for the win. Although in pathfinder would probably end up catching a Kraken.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there are enough people asking about Necromancers and the darker aspects of Necromancy that it deserves a blog. The Necromancer from RUSH's 1975 Caress of Steel is the perfect title too!
Personally I'd like to hear more about the magic system (You can do Magic by America or Magic by the Cars would work well for a title).
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Goblin Squad Member
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As grey traces of Dawn tinge the eastern sky,
Three travellers, men of Willowdale, emerge from the Forest's shadow.
Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer.
Even now, the intensity of his dread power can be felt; weakening the body, and saddening the heart.
Ultimately, they will become empty, mindless spectres.
Stripped of will and soul, only their thirst for Freedom gives them hunger for Vengeance
Man, I love that song...
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Goblin Squad Member
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As grey traces of Dawn tinge the eastern sky,
Three travellers, men of Willowdale, emerge from the Forest's shadow.
Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer.Even now, the intensity of his dread power can be felt; weakening the body, and saddening the heart.
Ultimately, they will become empty, mindless spectres.
Stripped of will and soul, only their thirst for Freedom gives them hunger for VengeanceMan, I love that song...
OK, the already high regard I hold you in, Nihimon, just rose to stratospheric heights! :)
What skills are going to be available? More directly, will skills to support all of the base PFRPG classes be included in PFO?
Mostly I'm interested in monks, and all things having to do with being a butt kicking kung fu master!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why is team evil inherently handicapped? GW very clearly stated that over time evil would not be able to achieve the same standards of trainers and perks available.
Wouldn't this lead to a huge handicap over time?
Evil isn't about wearing a black hat or any other fashion preference. Evil is slavery and human trafficking. Evil is child abuse and using child soldiers. Evil is rape, torture, and murder.
Evil isn't a 'team', it's inherently selfish. That's what defines it. It's about putting personal wants and whims over the needs and rights of others. I don't think you need a philosophy degree to sort this stuff out, but maybe the reason people glorify evil and think it's cool is because those of us privileged enough to be discussing an online game live in societies that mostly insulate us from the very real evils in the world.-------
I'd like to hear about the magic system too, but as that's been mentioned multiple times, I'd also like to see how artistic options could develop.
A system for creating heraldry from various symbols, patterns, and colours would be wonderful.
Examples:
http://www.fantasyshields.com/3#.UTnolSc3t8E
http://www.makeyourcoatofarms.com/app.asp
http://inkwellideas.com/coat_of_arms/free-version/
Could we write books in-game?
Could people sculpt custom statues by copying the likeness of various people, creatures, and objects?
A music system similar to that in LotRO would be fun, with both the active play and ABC notation options. That could even make a nice app tie-in, so people can submit songs to a music conservatory, rate the ones others have submitted, and download ones they want their own characters to be able to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Evil isn't about wearing a black hat or any other fashion preference. Evil is slavery and human trafficking. Evil is child abuse and using child soldiers. Evil is rape, torture, and murder.
Evil isn't a 'team', it's inherently selfish. That's what defines it. It's about putting personal wants and whims over the needs and rights of others. I don't think you need a philosophy degree to sort this stuff out, but maybe the reason people glorify evil and think it's cool is because those of us privileged enough to be discussing an online game live in societies that mostly insulate us from the very real evils in the world.
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There is a viable alternative to this view available for the purposes of RP which might interest some.
It can be argued that the interpretation of evil commonly believed by Golarion's good-aligned is itself twisted, and that Law and Good conspire to rule the minds of their adherants so absolutely that the oppressive rule of Law is even believed to be comfortable, and the prejudiced tunnel-vision of Good is warped into a belief that it nurtures its slaves, where in fact these are not so. Evil, in this alternative accounting of sentient existence, is what prompts variety and growth, sparking evolution and change by compelling healthful reactions in what would otherwise be complacent, stagnant, and ultimately wasteful. Chaos is liberative and promotes independence.
Good and Law have been rebranding the instruments of Evil and Chaos for centuries: small wonder so many have become deluded in thrall to their machinations.
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Evil isn't about wearing a black hat or any other fashion preference.
Oh, I don't know about that. I think there's a very high correlation between having a nice mustache you can twirl and being Evil :)
It can be argued that...
Please don't devolve into infinite navel-gazing where Good is Evil, Up is Down, and no one can possibly know that what their own "true" motives are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Evil isn't about wearing a black hat or any other fashion preference.Oh, I don't know about that. I think there's a very high correlation between having a nice mustache you can twirl and being Evil :)
It can be argued that...Please don't devolve into infinite navel-gazing where Good is Evil, Up is Down, and no one can possibly know that what their own "true" motives are.
Whyever not?
Unless a person has confronted the potential for being fooled, questioned their understanding of the Good, and looked at last upon their most central values they will be unprepared for real adversity. Unless they confront the complexity of reality and decide for themselves what really is good, then when the sky falls, as it so often does, and their most cherished dreams lie cratered and broken in smoking ruins then they will have a hope, a chance to climb back onto their hind legs and start again.
Rather than encouraging people to avoid the big questions until their weakest, most wounded moment, encourage them to consider long and deeply now, when they are still strong.
Stand sure. Have faith.
I think I disagree with Keovar. Evil is a team. A loosely-organized and poorly disciplined one with lots of splinter factions which sometimes fight each other. Okay, I agree with Keovar now. Evil is not a team.
But I disagree with him on the matter of what else Evil is. People are not playing Evil characters because they don't understand Evil is present in real life. They're playing Evil characters because it's a game, and if they don't play Evil, somebody else will.
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Whyever not?
Unless a person has confronted the potential for being fooled, questioned their understanding of the Good, and looked at last upon their most central values they will be unprepared for real adversity.
I am familiar with cognitive biases, and comfortable with doubt. I try to practice scientific skepticism, aiming for the ideal that confidence in a belief should be proportional to the evidence supporting it.
Unless they confront the complexity of reality and decide for themselves what really is good, then when the sky falls, as it so often does, and their most cherished dreams lie cratered and broken in smoking ruins then they will have a hope, a chance to climb back onto their hind legs and start again.
It's too bad these forums don't let you change text colours so you can write your prose in purple. :P
I try to base my morality on empathy and reasoning through the ethical implications of words and deeds.
Rather than encouraging people to avoid the big questions until their weakest, most wounded moment, encourage them to consider long and deeply now, when they are still strong.
Stand sure. Have faith.
Why should we regard faith as a virtue? Questions are often more useful.
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All that aside, I think there has been plenty of discussion of in-game alignments, but it might be useful for them to make a definitive post about what alignment means in this fantasy setting. Good, evil, law, and chaos are objective quantitative states, and some actions colour your 'soul' when you do them. Even if you have philosophical objections to giving wedgies to halflings, if the game gives you lawful and good points for doing it, then it's an LG action. Looking at what they've posted thus far, it seems the devs regard murder and slavery as evil, and are going to make the game reflect that. That's reality in PFO's Golarion. You don't choose a label and then try to rationalize why your actions are consistent with it, you act as you choose and eventually get sorted into the group consistent with it.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The sides of the alignment square are what they are. Describing Chaos as 'freedom' doesn't make it less Chaotic, and describing it as 'disorder' doesn't make it more Chaotic. Describing an alignment with loaded words and prose is the mark of someone with a vested interest for or against that alignment.
Chaotic Evil does not neccesarilly mean amoral or immoral. It doesn't even neccesarilly mean irreconcilable differences with Lawful Good.
Note that I'm not an alignment relativist, I'm very much an alignment absolutist. But I demand that I see the objectively correct absolutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The sides of the alignment square are what they are. Describing Chaos as 'freedom' doesn't make it less Chaotic, and describing it as 'disorder' doesn't make it more Chaotic. Describing an alignment with loaded words and prose is the mark of someone with a vested interest for or against that alignment.
Chaotic Evil does not neccesarilly mean amoral or immoral. It doesn't even neccesarilly mean irreconcilable differences with Lawful Good.
Note that I'm not an alignment relativist, I'm very much an alignment absolutist. But I demand that I see the objectively correct absolutes.
You make a good point. The alignments are as they are because of the deities that sponsor them, not out of reaction to one another.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You make a good point. The alignments are as they are because of the deities that sponsor them, not out of reaction to one another.The sides of the alignment square are what they are. Describing Chaos as 'freedom' doesn't make it less Chaotic, and describing it as 'disorder' doesn't make it more Chaotic. Describing an alignment with loaded words and prose is the mark of someone with a vested interest for or against that alignment.
Chaotic Evil does not neccesarilly mean amoral or immoral. It doesn't even neccesarilly mean irreconcilable differences with Lawful Good.
Note that I'm not an alignment relativist, I'm very much an alignment absolutist. But I demand that I see the objectively correct absolutes.
Perhaps. Or perhaps the gods are perfect expressions of alignment, and alignment is ontologically more basic than gods are. Gods can be made and killed, but Good can only be supported or opposed. It can be said that all evil gods and creatures can be killed, but what would it mean to kill the Evil Alignment?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps. Or perhaps the gods are perfect expressions of alignment, and alignment is ontologically more basic than gods are.
Blasphemy!
:P
In all seriousness though, the full implications of the alignment system will probably be addressed in a blog far in the future. And then will have to be calibrated in EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could try to build your character's own meaning for their alignment choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Questions are often more useful...Such wonderful faith in questioning you demonstrate! A marvelous proof!
:P
Yeah, you're the first one to troll that way... :rolleyes:
...alignment is ontologically more basic than gods are. Gods can be made and killed, but Good can only be supported or opposed. It can be said that all evil gods and creatures can be killed, but what would it mean to kill the Evil Alignment?
I think that's closest to the case. There's no Euthyphro's Dilemma here, the alignments have primacy of definition. It's consistent with the situation often referred to as the 'first horn' of the dilemma, and the usual objections don't apply because the 'omni' qualities don't apply.
I think there could be a problem with your example, though. If the deities championing good were to kill everything that was evil, then some of them would fall and become the new evil deities because they resorted to murder.
Defining the alignment qualities of actions goes to the second horn of the dilemma, with the devs adopting a 'meta-deity' role. They're the GMs of the game, so their interpretation of the alignments define how they operate for their world.