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Frankly, my group has found the whole shebang to be more hassle than it's worth, and we have shifted the 0HD Native Outsider races to Humanoids with the (planetouched) subtype, and I recommend this house rule to whatever group I am playing with... but this is, and will remail, a house rule.
Same'd.
Though there's always hope for PF 2E. ;)
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Switching them to Humanoid decreases their RP doesn't it?
But it would make it excellent. But it also changes the actual flavor of the races. Which is: The blood of Outsiders has empowered them above & beyond a normal humanoid.
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The problem is that it completely denies a character's heritage, humanity, and for what gain? According to PF25, some Tieflings live for years as a human before their traits manifest. In this case it sucks for them, but it's one thing to come face to face with being a Tief, but being denied any humanity? You have the potential for a gripping struggle here, but as is its a losing battle by default. Even Dhampir can call themselves "persons".
A common joke at my table is "tieflings aren't people too."
As for being denied their humanity... so are dwarves. Also not human. Same for gnomes, kitsune, tengu and many others. Hey have absolutely no humanity and never will. Ever.
The only thing tieflings are actually denied is the humanoid creature type. A game mechanic which has absolutely zero bearing on how a creature/person actually fits into society or is role-played.
But since you've brought up the "struggle," consider how important such a struggle is to the individual. Questions get raised, such as what really makes one human? Does my heritage define me or do my actions? Read any book which revolves around these types of questions and you'll see this is hardly a losing battle. Role-playing such a character, or along side such a character, can be fun.
Oh phew. I was afraid you stopped reading the thread before you saw my links. I thought they'd really help out, and I wouldn't have blamed you for having stopped reading the thread. Hope they helped!
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I've got two words for both all Planetouched. Two words they should fear beyond any creature in the monster manual.
Planar. Binding.
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I've got two words for both all Planetouched. Two words they should fear beyond any creature in the monster manual.
Dick. GM.
Fixed that a bit for you.
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What exactly is this thread about? Is this something to do with characters in the world somehow being able to see their character sheets or something like that?
I'm pretty sure everyone I know except one person that these races plays them does it because they aren't humanoids. Well except one guy who just really liked the Planescape campaign.
Fixed that a bit for you.I've got two words for both all Planetouched. Two words they should fear beyond any creature in the monster manual.
Dick. GM.
Heheheh. Well, it's true. Aasimar and Tieflings can be jerked around just like other outsiders. Tieflings are especially vulnerable due to their Charisma penalty (making them easier to magically compel with bindings). Could make for an interesting plot device.
For example, a well-meaning tiefling being forced to commit crimes and people against his or her will is being used as a pawn of an evil wizard whose identity the tiefling doesn't know (say due to being disguised or concealed with the binding circle in a hidden location). Now the tiefling has been captured and is going to be executed if the party cannot find the real culprit is before time runs out and the tiefling is executed for the murders they were compelled to carry out.
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You don't have to breed with an outsider to get a Tiefling, and even then they usually are the results further down the family line to that kind of breeding. There are plenty of examples of them coming from outside taint involving the parents/grandparents ect. Making a deal with a devil is a dangerous thing to do after all, but lots of folks do it anyway.
An Abyssal Sorcerer and his Rogue Wife with Eldritch Heritage(Infernal) might be an interesting pairing for giving a Tiefling.
Ok, lets look at a little metaphysical and fantasy genetics here to get a clear picture of the situation. Yes, I know that real-life genetics can't have a bearing on offspring between mortals and outsiders... that's why I'm using metaphysical genetics.
Humanoid(X) + Outsider(Evil) = Outsider(Native)
Humanoid(X) + Outsider(Native) = Humanoid(X)
-or-
Humanoid(X) + Outsider(Native) = Outsider(Native)
It appears that the outsider trait lasts in the blood for a very long time at the least. In general Humanoid + Outsider = Outsider(Native) {such as a half-celestial or half-fiend), and further humanoid couplings may weaken but not remove the type (as noted by the Planetouched occurring generations later still being native outsiders).
Apparently outsider genes are potent stuff. :P
I blame bards for any half-fiend aasimar dragon disciples in the world. :P
A couple of points..
1) Correction: Tieflings came from 2nd ed and were always meant to be a playable character race. And there also they were outsiders.
2) How does the fact that there are outsiders in any way JUSTFIES racism vs them? I am curious here.
3) People can really see or imagine the differences between the offspring of say two mortal races( orcs and humens) and a immortal enities from another plane of existence and a mortal effects on that persons family line...
How about this...think of the OUTSIDER gene being not dominate...but recessive and not just a single gene but a whole different strand. Which is why it can show up generations after the exposure to the OUTSIDER gene.
Personaly if Tieflings and the rest were not outsiders...I would probably be posting a similair thread as the OP but asking in reverse...because quite honestly I don't see how they can NOT be outsiders.
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Half-Elves and Half-Orcs could be less human as an tiefling (but that is arguable, if a tiefling could look like almost human, so half-elves and half-orcs). But them (half-elfs and half-orcs) are 100% humanoids (elves and orcs are humanoids too, like the humans). Tieflings, for instance, are not.
Even so, Tieflings have the (native) subtipe, to contermeasure their "outsiderness".
And were is the question here? Right on top of the Tiefling entry on the Bestiary, next with the XP, you can read: "Outsider (Native)". Note the subtle hint that they are NOT Humanoids by not mentioning that type one the Tiefling entry!
One thing i agree, though, is the difficulty to roleplay a tiefling that do not believe it is a tiefling even when confronted with a charm person spell, but a good roleplayer can circunvent this problem easily. (Yeah, yor charm person work on humanoids, i see. You are very good enchanter as i`m a tiefling, or whatever you keep calling me).
And the "Racism!" part, look. All creatures, even humanoids, can be monters. And all creatures, even aberrations, can be heroes (although some are nonplayable). If your racism is based that, the the tiefling is an outsider, and outsiders are monters, you are soo wrong...
Want to see a monster? Do not look far, because the worst monsters live on, and are part of, the humankind.
A couple of points..
1) Correction: Tieflings came from 2nd ed and were always meant to be a playable character race. And there also they were outsiders.
2) How does the fact that there are outsiders in any way JUSTFIES racism vs them? I am curious here.
3) People can really see or imagine the differences between the offspring of say two mortal races( orcs and humens) and a immortal enities from another plane of existence and a mortal effects on that persons family line...
How about this...think of the OUTSIDER gene being not dominate...but recessive and not just a single gene but a whole different strand. Which is why it can show up generations after the exposure to the OUTSIDER gene.
Personaly if Tieflings and the rest were not outsiders...I would probably be posting a similair thread as the OP but asking in reverse...because quite honestly I don't see how they can NOT be outsiders.
I like meeting in the middle. A Planetouched subtype on a humanoid chassis. Give them some outsider traits while keeping their dual-heritage. Might be a good place to add immunity to certain spells.
Maybe a save versus enchantment and Mind-Affecting Spells?
A Human + Changeling would give Humanoid(Human, Changeling)
This is your only problem, Humanoid (X) + Humanoid (Changeling) = Humanoid (X). Changelings are only first-generation descendents of hags, according to James Jacobs at least. But they are kind of a weird one anyway.
My 2 Cents:
I'm totally okay with the Aasimar/Teirfling situation. I'm sorry it cuts into your particular RP potential OP; but I don't think it need to be change. And as mentioned, Outsiders come with their own baggage(afforementioned planar bindings) in exchange for their benefits.
I would point out though, Tieflings aren't half-anything. They're a statistical improbability of outsider/human dna. For true half breeds we have the Half-Celestial & Half-Fiend Templates... Which are also Native Outsiders, but are very different from their analogs.
Another reason this analogy is just flat bad is that requesting something done to YOUR dish or having it remade effects only you. This is more like walking into a restaurant and screaming that they should permanently change the menu because you don't like something on it. It would effect everyone that eats there and its just idiotic to even attempt.You are saying, by your example, you've never made requests of a restaurant, or registered complaints?I think a more appropriate analogy would be asking to see the chef, and then demanding he convince you why he put cardamom in the special before you order it. The chef has better things to do with his time.
I stand corrected.
What's up with the recent spate of threads where people are demanding the rules be changed to suit their preferences? Is "house rule" a dirty word*?
*okay, phrase.
Maybe a save versus enchantment and Mind-Affecting Spells?
I would probably give them a bonus on saves vs spells that cannot also target Outsiders (which would include spells like charm person, dominate person, enlarge person, reduce person, etc). It would retain some of their outsider resistance while not barring spells that are favorite buffs (an aasimar martial will greatly miss enlarge person).
It also passingly makes them immune to things that specifically affect Outsiders, such as planar binding.
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I still think giving all Planetouched a "Scion of "X"ity" alternate racial trait would be the best solution to everybody's problems. It'd be flavorful and awesome.
Considering adventurers are already the 0.001% of the population, having them be very unusual, even among their unusual brethren would be neat. But it shouldn't be a requirement.
@Seranov: I already allow the Aasimar trait to be taken by any Outsider(Native).
Tieflings aren't half-human half-demon/devil. That's explicitly the point."Simultaneously more and less than mortal, tieflings are the offspring of humans and fiends."
"Most tieflings never know their fiendish sire, as the coupling that produced their curse occurred generations earlier."
Not only are they half-human, they are often more human than demon/devil. Though I can find nothing in the ARG to corroborate any of your genetics claims. Though here's an interesting bit;
"But half-elves, half-orcs, fetchlings and—most oddly—aasimars tend to view them as kindred spirits who are too often rejected or who don't fit into most societies by virtue of their birth."
Guess half-elves and half-orcs can't find Tieflings all THAT kindred, eh?
A half-fiend would be a cambion or alu-fiend or in post 2nd edition, literally a "half-fiend." Tieflings just have fiendish ancestry (as you noted). Same with aasimar and celestial ancestry. Similarly, a half-elf or half-orc isn't necessarily the direct birth of a full human and a full elf or orc. It can go down multiple generations and still be "half"-elf or -orc.
I know a lot of that is based on pre-pathfinder knowledge, but there is some precedent in the pathfinder rules. The Core RuleBook reads, "There are stories of places where people see half-orc children as a blessing and seek out half-orc or orc lovers." This shows that the child of a human and a half-orc will produce a half-orc; it's not a perfect 50/50 in that case. Precedent has now been set for half-orcs: it can be ancestral and not a direct birth. For the elves, the CRB does state that two half-elves can breed with each other; and while that is still 50/50 in terms of genetics, it does show that it doesn't have to be a human and elf parent. Regardless, it would be odd that every other half-race allowed for ancestry, except the half-elf. Based on that, we can assume the half-elves follow the same logic.
The point of all that is to show that the "half" part of half-breeds can be a misnomer.
I believe the problem the OP has stems from the idea that believing aasimars and tieflings were originally designed as player options. While I understand that there are now a multitude of options to facilitate them as a proper choice for a player, they were first and foremost designed to be NPCs.
Tieflings and aasimar were introduced in 1994, in the Planescape Box Set of 2nd Edition AD&D. They were playable races from the very beginning. :)
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The taint is long-lasting and persistent, often manifesting at birth or sometimes later in life, as a powerful, though often unwanted, boon.
Wouldn't this be cool in a campaign since your parents are often (almost always?) both human, to start as a human character and then have certain things such as 'Daze' not affect your character. They would start to think that they are somewhat different than everyone else but not thinking metagamey 'Oh, I must be an outsider!' Some way into the campaign, the 'taint' manifests itself fullblown and then they take on the Tiefling racial traits and abilities.
I could see a LOT of roleplaying fun with that scenario. Obviously the GM would have to know/agree to this change before the campaign starts. Maybe they would be the one deciding when it happens and the player would only be able to start getting clues when things happen strangely for their character.
But (IIRC) that era had Outsiders being less of an effect on them.
The taint is long-lasting and persistent, often manifesting at birth or sometimes later in life, as a powerful, though often unwanted, boon.Wouldn't this be cool in a campaign since your parents are often (almost always?) both human, to start as a human character and then have certain things such as 'Daze' not affect your character. They would start to think that they are somewhat different than everyone else but not thinking metagamey 'Oh, I must be an outsider!' Some way into the campaign, the 'taint' manifests itself fullblown and then they take on the Tiefling racial traits and abilities.
I could see a LOT of roleplaying fun with that scenario. Obviously the GM would have to know/agree to this change before the campaign starts. Maybe they would be the one deciding when it happens and the player would only be able to start getting clues when things happen strangely for their character.
It manifests itself at puberty, much like being a mutant. :)
Where was it said it was only at Puberty? I think a Module or AP or something had one where the guy was in his 20s and had a son before it manifested.
But I could see the Guy starting out as a Versatile Human(+2 in any 2 Stats, no other Racial Abilities) and those 2 Stats must be the Stats their Tiefling Heritage Modifies.
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Would they lose their bonus Human feat?The taint is long-lasting and persistent, often manifesting at birth or sometimes later in life, as a powerful, though often unwanted, boon.Wouldn't this be cool in a campaign since your parents are often (almost always?) both human, to start as a human character and then have certain things such as 'Daze' not affect your character. They would start to think that they are somewhat different than everyone else but not thinking metagamey 'Oh, I must be an outsider!' Some way into the campaign, the 'taint' manifests itself fullblown and then they take on the Tiefling racial traits and abilities.
I could see a LOT of roleplaying fun with that scenario. Obviously the GM would have to know/agree to this change before the campaign starts. Maybe they would be the one deciding when it happens and the player would only be able to start getting clues when things happen strangely for their character.
I'd probably run it in game as them just skipping their next feat by level after the change fully manifests itself, to reflect the time they're taking adjusting to their new physiology when they would otherwise be training. They end up with the same number of feats they should have, and you don't end up with some weirdness like your fiendish ancestry manifesting and suddenly making you forget how to Power Attack.
Would they lose their bonus Human feat?The taint is long-lasting and persistent, often manifesting at birth or sometimes later in life, as a powerful, though often unwanted, boon.Wouldn't this be cool in a campaign since your parents are often (almost always?) both human, to start as a human character and then have certain things such as 'Daze' not affect your character. They would start to think that they are somewhat different than everyone else but not thinking metagamey 'Oh, I must be an outsider!' Some way into the campaign, the 'taint' manifests itself fullblown and then they take on the Tiefling racial traits and abilities.
I could see a LOT of roleplaying fun with that scenario. Obviously the GM would have to know/agree to this change before the campaign starts. Maybe they would be the one deciding when it happens and the player would only be able to start getting clues when things happen strangely for their character.
I would say, yes. Since the Player knows going in that they will become a Tiefling at some point, and the PC does not know what these feat-things are, only that they can do X only, while their friends are good at X and Y!
edited for clarity,
That is why I said use the Versatile Human that has the Dual Talent Trait.
True, any starting race would need to be 'tuned' at the start to prepare for the upcoming 'manifestation', but I still think it would be fun for the rest of the party-members to suddenly find a Tiefling in their midst and how that could play on any paladin or cleric, etc. interactions!
Well a Versatile Human would appear as a normal Human before the Manifestation.
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Do not abuse the FAQ system.
1) Putting "FAQ this" in your message title is not going to get you an answer any faster (just as "Dev response needed" isn't).
2) "Should tieflings be humanoid?" is not a frequently asked question.
3) "Should tieflings be humanoid?" isn't an attempt to clarify a vague area in the rules. The purpose of the FAQ system is to help us identify problems with the rules, not call out long-standing game precedents that you want to change for all campaigns.
^^^^^^^
Nuff said.
Where was it said it was only at Puberty? I think a Module or AP or something had one where the guy was in his 20s and had a son before it manifested.
But I could see the Guy starting out as a Versatile Human(+2 in any 2 Stats, no other Racial Abilities) and those 2 Stats must be the Stats their Tiefling Heritage Modifies.
Sorry. I should have said, "It could manifest itself at puberty." I wasn't making a hard and fast rule, but expanding upon the roleplaying option. :)
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Ok you had me confused for a second because I can see a Grown man suddenly appearing as a Devilish Being being a better RP opportunity.
Or a Tribe of Tieflings where everyone is born Human but transform at Puberty...
Excuse me while I go plan yet another adventure that will sit around for a year or 2 before seeing Play.
A large percentage in my neck of the woods does not realize that tieflings are not humanoids...to the point where I've seen our venture captain explain it on multiple occasions...to no avail.
I'm not asking for a change, or demanding an explanation...I"m asking for clearer communication in the face of something many obviously find counter-intuitive.
I'm sorry, I just don't see a sense of entitlement there.
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Aasimar Racial Traits
+2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
Native Outsider: Aasimars are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Aasimars are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to the aasimar's class level).
Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common and Celestial. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan.
Ifrit Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, –2 Wisdom: Ifrits are passionate and quick, but impetuous and destructive.
Native Outsider: Ifrits are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Ifrits are Medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Ifrits have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Ifrits can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Spell-Like Ability: Burning hands 1/day (caster level equals the ifrit's level).
Energy Resistance: Ifrits have fire resistance 5.
Fire Affinity: Ifrit sorcerers with the elemental (fire) bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Ifrit spellcasters with the Fire domain use their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level.
Languages: Ifrits begin play speaking Common and Ignan. Ifrits with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Terran.
Oread Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Oreads are strong, solid, stable, and stoic.
Native Outsider: Oreads are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Oreads are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Slow Speed: Oreads have a base speed of 20 feet.
Darkvision: Oreads can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Spell-Like Ability: Magic stone 1/day (caster level equals the oread's total level).
Energy Resistance: Oreads have acid resistance 5.
Earth Affinity: Oread sorcerers with the elemental (earth) bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Oread clerics with the Earth domain use their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level.
Languages: Oreads begin play speaking Common and Terran. Oreads with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, and Undercommon.
Sylph Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution: Sylphs are quick and insightful, but slight and delicate.
Native Outsider: Sylphs are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Sylphs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Sylphs have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Sylphs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Spell-Like Ability: Feather fall 1/day (caster level equals the sylph's total level).
Energy Resistance: Sylphs have electricity resistance 5.
Air Affinity: Sylph sorcerers with the elemental (air) bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Sylph spellcasters with the Air domain use their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level.
Languages: Sylphs begin play speaking Common and Auran. Sylphs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, and Terran.
Tiefling Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma: Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange and unnerving.
Native Outsider: Tieflings are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Tieflings are Medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Tieflings have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Tieflings see in the dark for up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Tieflings gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Stealth checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the tiefling's class level.
Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
Fiendish Sorcery: Tiefling sorcerers with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer class abilities.
Languages: Tieflings begin play speaking Common and either Abyssal or Infernal. Tieflings with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, and Orc.
Undine Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Strength: Undines are both perceptive and agile, but tend to adapt rather than match force with force.
Native Outsider: Undines are outsiders with the native subtype.
Medium: Undines are Medium creatures and receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Undines have a base speed of 30 feet on land. They also have a swim speed of 30 feet, can move in water without making Swim checks, and always treat Swim as a class skill.
Darkvision: Undines can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Spell-Like Ability: Hydraulic push 1/day (caster level equals the undine's level).
Energy Resistance: Undines have cold resistance 5.
Water Affinity: Undine sorcerers with the elemental (water) bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Undine clerics with the Water domain cast their Water domain powers and spells at +1 caster level.
Languages: Undines begin play speaking Common and Aquan. Undines with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, and Terran.
There it is, spelled out in black and white. An Aasimar, Tiefling, WHATEVER type of Planetouched they may be, is a Native Outsider unless they have something that specifically changes that.
If people aren't going to read the races before they play them, that's their problem. It doesn't matter if they dislike the fact that that's how it is, because it's perfectly clear what both the RAW and RAI is on the subject.