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We have a player who wants to use this drug to make his Barbarian effectively immune to fatigue, thus allowing him to go in and out of rages freely. Here's what the drug says it does.
This treated wafer dissolves into a chalky paste when placed under the tongue and then gives the imbiber a jolt of restless energy. It eliminates the effects of fatigue for the next 8 hours; when the drug’s effect ends, the user is exhausted. Allnight makes its users jittery and unable to focus; they suffer a –2 penalty on all skill checks until its effects wear off.
There is some debate about the wording, "eliminates the effects of fatigue". Does this mean you're immune to fatigue...or are you still fatigued but not taking the Str/Dex penalties but you can't Rage?
Seems a little nitpicky but Pathfinder seems to thrive on these types of "wording" rules and how they are handled.
Thanks.
It does not say it increases the number of rounds per day you can rage...but if you don't suffer the fatigue part. This is possible with lesser restoration too, but without the side effects.
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I would say that this would allow the Barbarian to go in and out of Rage, without immediate effects. It would not increase the amount of times per day he can Rage. As a GM, you are within your rights to add some side affects to using this drug that the player may not have considered. The description you gave does not say how long the Exhaustion lasts, after the drug wears off. Making it last one hour or more per hour effected would be reasonable. Would make that night time "random" encounter a bit more of a challenge. Or the Barbarian could become addicted, and start suffering penalties when he cannot get this drug.
I would be led to believe that the effects of fatigue
are ignored entirely. That said, I would adjudicate the character is never fatigued at any point while under the effects of the drug so the barbarian could rage freely.
I would also not allow the character to sleep while under the effects of All Night, but that's another matter.
As far as I am aware - All Night is a drug. It is a black market controlled substance. One hopes that .. 1) your barbarian isn't good aligned.. 2) has underworld black market connections... and 3) his DM won't have fun having city guards hit him up on a drug raid some time and end up throwing him in the slammer for Possession of narcotics! LOL
Isn't enforcement of illegal drugs a bit anachronistic/out of place in a typical fantasy campaign?
The character would have the fatigued condition, but ignore the effects of it. Sorry, still can't rage.
If you ignore the effects of fatigue then you ignore the fact that fatigue does not allow you to rage. That is one of the effects after all.
I think your argument makes sense for the invigorate spell, however. The invigorate spells says you ignore the penalties of being fatigue.
That said, "ignore" and "are immune to" are the same.
Whomever designed this rule had to have thought of the effect it would have on barbarians. So my question would be, "is the elimination of the fatigued condition too good for barbarians, given that it lasts 8 hours for 75 gold?"
If it isn't too good then it's fine.
On the other hand, if it is too good, I agree with the interpretation that it does not eliminate the fatigued condition, just merely the effects of the condition.
This also effects characters with the Academae Graduate feat. Academae graduates can summon monsters as a standard action but risk fatiguing themselves. Unlike barbarian rage there is no prohibition against summoning quickly while fatigued. So, an Academae graduate on All Night can push themselves and summon quickly for 8 hours then sleep it off (if given a chance, which is usually the case). However, if they actually have the fatigued condition but are not suffering the effects, they will eventually stack fatigued on top of fatigued and gain the exhausted condition, for which All Night provides no protection.
I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work.
Since he wants to abuse drugs, lets make it as realistic as possible for him. Say yes, he offs the negative effects of coming out of rage, and it lasts 8 hours. so you start adjudicating that 8 hours later, he suffers both the effects of the drug, and the postponed rage effects. He's going to say, well, that's stupid, i just take more.
Now it only lasts 7 hours, and it doubles the exhaustion time rules. so now he's probably doping at least twice a day, and crashing or going without sleep, which means he has to dose 3 times a day. keep adding the exhaustion timetable while cutting the effective drug duration by an hour or half hour as he becomes inured to its effects.
Now he's been hitting the pipe(sorry, tab) almost constantly, and he wises up. he think's he's going to just cold turkey it. not a chance. start making him take con checks for every 4 to 8 hours he goes without it, the cost of failure being temporary con loss or immediate 8 hour bedrest.
shadowmage75 wrote: Since he wants to abuse drugs, lets make it as realistic as possible for him. Say yes, he offs the negative effects of coming out of rage, and it lasts 8 hours. so you start adjudicating that 8 hours later, he suffers both the effects of the drug, and the postponed rage effects. He's going to say, well, that's stupid, i just take more.
Now it only lasts 7 hours, and it doubles the exhaustion time rules. so now he's probably doping at least twice a day, and crashing or going without sleep, which means he has to dose 3 times a day. keep adding the exhaustion timetable while cutting the effective drug duration by an hour or half hour as he becomes inured to its effects.
Now he's been hitting the pipe(sorry, tab) almost constantly, and he wises up. he think's he's going to just cold turkey it. not a chance. start making him take con checks for every 4 to 8 hours he goes without it, the cost of failure being temporary con loss or immediate 8 hour bedrest.
So, add massive penalties that aren't in the item and do it without telling the character up front?
Mind you, you have to go farther to make these penalties up since the drug already leaves you exhausted. It takes an hour of complete rest to get from exhausted down to fatigued. And another 8 hours to recover from being fatigued. Adding another few rounds of fatigue from the postponed rage doesn't make any difference.
And taking the drug again while exhausted won't do anything since it only removes the symptoms of fatigue not exhaustion.
shadowmage75 wrote: Since he wants to abuse drugs, lets make it as realistic as possible for him. Say yes, he offs the negative effects of coming out of rage, and it lasts 8 hours. so you start adjudicating that 8 hours later, he suffers both the effects of the drug, and the postponed rage effects. He's going to say, well, that's stupid, i just take more.
Now it only lasts 7 hours, and it doubles the exhaustion time rules. so now he's probably doping at least twice a day, and crashing or going without sleep, which means he has to dose 3 times a day. keep adding the exhaustion timetable while cutting the effective drug duration by an hour or half hour as he becomes inured to its effects.
Now he's been hitting the pipe(sorry, tab) almost constantly, and he wises up. he think's he's going to just cold turkey it. not a chance. start making him take con checks for every 4 to 8 hours he goes without it, the cost of failure being temporary con loss or immediate 8 hour bedrest.
No, that's not douchey at all.
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The All Night Drug is simply caffeine. And WINNERS DO USE CAFFIENE
I will point out that ignoring the effects of fatigue is not same as ignoring the fatigued condition.
If there is a difference, it is one without significance as it relates to the topic of rage cycling.
Xavram5 wrote: when the drug’s effect ends, the user is exhausted. Since the drug does nothing to eliminate the exhausted condition, I feel sorry when the barbarian is attacked after his 8 hour high wears off.
Lakesidefantasy wrote: Whomever designed this rule had to have thought of the effect it would have on barbarians. So my question would be, "is the elimination of the fatigued condition too good for barbarians, given that it lasts 8 hours for 75 gold?"
If it isn't too good then it's fine.
On the other hand, if it is too good, I agree with the interpretation that it does not eliminate the fatigued condition, just merely the effects of the condition.
It is not too good. At the levels where you would buy the 75 gold pill it would be an expensive pill to you. You would not just willy nilly pop a pill everday.
At later levels you will be able to afford the belt of stubborn resolve and the pills will be a non-issue. The pills just makes rage cyling possible at early levels. So a level 2 barbarian might be able to use surprising accuracy more than once per encounter. Big deal.
Artanthos wrote: Xavram5 wrote: when the drug’s effect ends, the user is exhausted. Since the drug does nothing to eliminate the exhausted condition, I feel sorry when the barbarian is attacked after his 8 hour high wears off. Me too, which is why I don't know why everyone wants to nerf the abilities of the all night pill.
You know that in real life you can not stay up all night and study for an examine in the morning if your are fatigue.
Luckily there is this "legally drug" that you can buy to allow you to "ignore the effects of fatigue" and thereby stay up all night and study. We call it caffiene.
Of course, after you take your examine you are exhausted and have to sleep off the all night studying that caffiene allowed you to do even though you were fatigued.
Caffiene is not All Night Drug. However, such drugs really exist. The military has used a drug called Modafinil and various amphetamines to keep people awake for 40+ hours.
You have obviously never used No Dose to pull an all nighter. I have stayed awake for forty plus hours on No Dose (and it is completely caffiene) Also, that 5 hour energy is not selling like hot cakes for no reason.
By the way, 600 mg of caffiene is roughly compareable to 400 mg of modafinil. GO HERE.
And my point to calling the All Night Drug caffiene (obivously I don't know what it is) is to make the point that an All Night Drug does not have to be an illegal drug, does not have to be overly addicting and does have to create ridiculous side effects as many have suggested.
Is it too good?
On the one hand, I think Driver is right. All Night is pretty pricey, and that is certainly significant for low level adventurers. However, after a couple of levels it becomes much less significant.
On the other hand, at higher levels when an adventurer can afford a flawed ioun stone or a cord of stubborn resolve, he shouldn't leave the house without it, as All Night is much better than those items.
Against 15,000 gold for a cord of stubborn resolve, wouldn't an adventurer be better off with a 4,000 gold belt of mighty constitution and a lifetime supply of All Night wafers?
Although, being exhausted is pretty severe if you can't time it with your normal sleep cycle.
However, wouldn't an adventurer just need to rest for an hour to shake off the exhaustion and be ready to take another dose of All Night?
Lakesidefantasy wrote: Is it too good?
On the one hand, I think Driver is right. All Night is pretty pricey, and that is certainly significant for low level adventurers. However, after a couple of levels it becomes much less significant.
On the other hand, at higher levels when an adventurer can afford a flawed ioun stone or a cord of stubborn resolve, he shouldn't leave the house without it, as All Night is much better than those items.
Against 15,000 gold for a cord of stubborn resolve, wouldn't an adventurer be better off with a 4,000 gold belt of mighty constitution and a lifetime supply of All Night wafers?
Whether it is too good is not only a function of price, but a function of effect. Look, one of the main things that I like to do is build optimized characters. What I am telling you is that a barbarian built for rage cycling at early levels is not any better than optimized barbarians that you can build who don't rage cyle at early levels.
The reason why I am for a pill that allows you to rage cycle at early levels is strictly for variety sake. Just how many beast totem, lesser 2nd level barbarians with claws on their feet do you need to see.
Is swing with great sword, claw, claw somehow inferior to the 2nd level barbarian who can use suprising accuracy every round instead of once per rage. I think not. If anything the beast totem, lesser barbarian is far better.
Believe me, I get nerfing when something is breaking the game. However, people who seek to nerf the all night pill just like to nerf for nerf sake.
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