Save vs. Sexism: Interview with Jessica Price

[TanithT]

Shifty wrote:

And neither does anyone else, which is why I suppose I have seen it precisely 0 times, ever. Nor has anyone I have ever met claim it has happened to them, only ever nebulous tales that start "This one time, at a games con, apparently..." and only ever from people on the internet.

Have you ever talked about this subject in depth to a woman who goes to cons, or to a family who does cons when one of them is a minor female? Particularly if they cosplay?

Quote:

Pretty good odds then of it not happening.

So, you are calling myself and at least one other woman on this thread liars.

Quote:

Reckon that a games cons would have to be one of the safest places for a person to hang out at; anyone have the stats on assaults and other criminal activities at games conventions? Anyone have a news article on someone shanking someone else over a dice dispute?

Shanking, no. Sexual harassment, groping and rape, actual for reals rape, yes. There have been way too many incidents at the larger conventions, and a LOT of brouhaha in the fandom as to how those incidents have been handled.

Quote:

Games cons are a pretty safe space, I would suggest that the reasons some women might not like them are very much related to the 'surrounds and their downsides'. On that note not every male likes them either.

FOR YOU they are a safe space. But your experience is likely to be very dramatically different from that of a woman in the exact same space. The fact that you don't understand this is reasonable, because it is not your personal experience. The fact that you are refusing to believe it and calling women liars when they state their experiences is not.

[thejeff]

GM_Beernorg wrote:

Ok, seems the thread is growing more heads than a hydra. And with all those mouths think I shall type carefully. It strikes me that we trying to relate to an issue that is a directly symptom of current gender roll. We are all thinking like mad to try and solve the men, women, and LGBT (lesbian, gay, bi, transgendered) conundrum. The game space is a reflection of the RW that every play inhabits. No matter how much of a "game" RPG's are, they draw from the RW, and the players at the table. Thanks to oversexed media, books like 50 shades (of nothing like reality), and porn on the internet, the bad behavior is being encouraged. Young men and women are steeped in it from a young age, and I dare say what passes for normal sexual development in young people is WAY different than when I was 16.

I think it would be telling if a subculture like ours were to take a lead role in throwing down the absurd sex and gender wall that modern culture has built and in whose shadow we all suffer.

Are you suggesting that this is a new problem in gaming, caused by modern culture and that it didn't exist (or at least was less common) back in the day?

My experience is that both gaming culture and the RW in general are less sexist (and far more accepting of LBTG) than they were in my youth. The sex and gender wall was far higher and stronger 25 years ago than today. Women were even less common in gaming circles. (Though they may have actually peaked in the White Wolf years, from anecdotal evidence.)
I just don't see that at all. Some of the greater openness to sex may lead to more sex talk and activity in games, but that's not the major issue here. In itself, that's not sexist.

[Joana]

Neil Spicer wrote:

Here's a new suggestion that I haven't seen called out yet...

More cool mini's of female heroes. My daughters have been especially drawn to Kyra and Merisiel...and even Seoni (to a lesser degree). They often argue over who gets to play those characters (and use their mini's) in the various scenarios I've run for them with the Beginner Box. In general, I've always noticed that whenever they see any artwork in a Paizo product...or any "artwork" in the form of a new miniature...they always identify with and ask questions about those that are obviously female. Not so much the monster or evil NPC ones, mind you...but the ones they see as heroes fighting against the bad guys/monsters. So, give them more of those to inspire them and I think it helps foster their continued interest in the game.

In some ways, miniatures are kind of like tiny dolls or action figures in their minds. Both are toys they already have an intense interest in. So, I think this is a product line that could benefit from more positive role models to depict for them, as well.

Just another penny,
--Neil

Maybe because there's already a thread in the minis forum complaining that there are too many female miniatures in Pathfinder Battles. Because, after all, there aren't enough female gamers to use all those female minis, and you don't need minis for barmaids and townspeople and noncombatants. :P

[Sibbers]

Humphrey Boggard wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

hasbro should totally make a my Little Pony table top game with watered down D20 rules to get the girls young into the idea of role play.

My girlfriend's 18 year old step brother would kill for that game. All he talks about is MLP:FiM. He'd never make the leap to PF though (doesn't even watch PG13 movies).

edit: The dude made his own MLP t-shirt with math jokes on it, completely unironically.

It already exists,but with pathfinder rules.

[Berik]

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Though it's not directed at me, I am a litle skeptical just how often this sort of thing happens. I have a fairly long history with the game (and many others), have played with a lot of different groups, and a lot of different people.

Shifty wrote:

And neither does anyone else, which is why I suppose I have seen it precisely 0 times, ever. Nor has anyone I have ever met claim it has happened to them, only ever nebulous tales that start "This one time, at a games con, apparently..." and only ever from people on the internet.

I really don't understand what either of you are trying to get at with these sort of comments. Do you actually think that most of these stories the victims of this behaviour give are made up? If so that's exactly the thing that makes it really hard for someone who has been treated like this to come forward. It's bad enough to have people trying to do awful things to yourself or to your character. It's just adding salt in the wound when you confide in people and they suggest, '"well, I've never seen it happen so I don't think it's really the big problem you make out".

I have no idea how often this sort of behaviour occurs, I've been fortunate enough never to encountered such things myself. But the fact that it happens at all is a pretty darn objectionable thing. And the fact that such behaviour even has been inflicted on women at public places like cons makes it all the more necessary to address rather than dismiss with "I haven't seen it happening". For women who have had this kind of thing happen it's bad enough for this kind of thing to happen in the first place. But if she confides in the community and the reaction is "sorry this happened to you, but I've never seen it and I think you're exaggerating how big the problem is"? I'm not a woman myself, but that seems like the kind of thing that would make it tempting for a woman to give up on gaming.

[TanithT]

Krisam wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

Are you claiming that the women in this thread are just making these incidents up?

That is certainly what it sounds like to me. It makes me angry, and sad. I think I've had enough of this thread. There are obvious posters who make it unpleasant to read.

Right. Because we all know there could never be any such thing at a gaming table as a creepy guy with no social skills and a bunch of other guys who mostly ignore or tolerate the behavior as "Oh, that's just how John is, don't mind John" and are willing to let him play anyway.

If you do mind John, even if John is that guy straight out of the Dead Alewives skit who keeps trying to act out sex at the table (consensual or otherwise) with the barmaids and asks (jokingly or not) if he can roll to rape your character, or roll for how big your character's boobs are, etc etc, you will be branded as either oversensitive or a flat out liar. Because gamers just don't do that kind of thing, and if they do, you'd better not talk about it because we just have to be tolerant.

I think most women who have been active in gaming for any length of time - Paizo employees, for instance - are unfortunately likely to have had some experiences with this sort of thing. Calling us all liars and handwaving the problem away as not really a problem is not going to fly.

Actually that IS a huge part of the problem right there.

[Berik]

Neil Spicer wrote:

Here's a new suggestion that I haven't seen called out yet...

More cool mini's of female heroes. My daughters have been especially drawn to Kyra and Merisiel...and even Seoni (to a lesser degree). They often argue over who gets to play those characters (and use their mini's) in the various scenarios I've run for them with the Beginner Box. In general, I've always noticed that whenever they see any artwork in a Paizo product...or any "artwork" in the form of a new miniature...they always identify with and ask questions about those that are obviously female. Not so much the monster or evil NPC ones, mind you...but the ones they see as heroes fighting against the bad guys/monsters. So, give them more of those to inspire them and I think it helps foster their continued interest in the game.

In some ways, miniatures are kind of like tiny dolls or action figures in their minds. Both are toys they already have an intense interest in. So, I think this is a product line that could benefit from more positive role models to depict for them, as well.

Just another penny,
--Neil

I think that this kind of thing really helps too. I had a few friends over for a barbecue the other night and there's a shelf on my bookcase which I've been keeping a rotating display of miniatures on. This time I had all the Pathfinder iconics I have posed together facing down the black dragon. The usual suspects looked at and commented on the figures during the night. But one of my female friends who has never shown any interest in gaming beyond playing Settlers of Catan spent ages looking at them. She even asked me a few questions about the game and sounded quite curious about it.

It's still a bit doubtful as to whether she'd ever actually be interested in playing. But I got the impression it was the first time it had occurred to her this was a game that people like her might play. And I think having respectable looking female minis was a big part of that.

[Neil Spicer]

Berik wrote:

I think having respectable looking female minis was a big part of that.

Exactly. And, magnify that tenfold if it's children looking over the miniatures. The wonderment and openness to gaming is even stronger then.

[fretgod99]

Neil Spicer wrote:

Here's a new suggestion that I haven't seen called out yet...

More cool mini's of female heroes. My daughters have been especially drawn to Kyra and Merisiel...and even Seoni (to a lesser degree). They often argue over who gets to play those characters (and use their mini's) in the various scenarios I've run for them with the Beginner Box. In general, I've always noticed that whenever they see any artwork in a Paizo product...or any "artwork" in the form of a new miniature...they always identify with and ask questions about those that are obviously female. Not so much the monster or evil NPC ones, mind you...but the ones they see as heroes fighting against the bad guys/monsters. So, give them more of those to inspire them and I think it helps foster their continued interest in the game.

In some ways, miniatures are kind of like tiny dolls or action figures in their minds. Both are toys they already have an intense interest in. So, I think this is a product line that could benefit from more positive role models to depict for them, as well.

Just another penny,
--Neil

My wife mentioned the other day when we were discussing this thread that it would be nice to have fewer nipples everywhere on minis and the like. To be fair, a lot of the ones our group has used are pre-Paizo or were from other manufacturers, but it goes along the same vein as what has been commented on by a lot of other women. Even if it's not necessarily offensive to all women, it's something of an annoyance at the very least to be surrounded by the stereotypical cheesecake chainmail bikinis/nudity in artwork, drawings, figurines, etc. Her words were basically, "Why is that necessary? But hell, if you're going to have them, at least have them on everybody."

So yes, cool figurines that don't resort to stereotypical depictions of females would be great. It's right inline with the other requested changes to artwork, except figurines are more visceral, I'd imagine, in that they actually directly relate to the player's character - it is quite literally the visual representative of it (not just some overly-sexualized drawing of an NPC on the cover of an adventure path or whatever).

[thunderspirit]

TanithT wrote:

I think most women who have been active in gaming for any length of time - Paizo employees, for instance - are unfortunately likely to have had some experiences with this sort of thing. Calling us all liars and handwaving the problem away as not really a problem is not going to fly.

Actually that IS a huge part of the problem right there.

This, +1 more times than my fingers can type.

Failure to acknowledge that a problem may, in fact, exist outside of our own experience is likely the second-most important part of the problem.

[GM_Beernorg]

Indeed I am not suggesting that it is a new issue, its in fact the same old problem just with more outlets. Social media, internet, etc. I would venture that things ARE better regarding gender and sexual orientation today then ever before. However, better does not mean good. We are simply more aware of the problems. Also, not be sexist myself, but women today are much more outspoken than in the past. I do not disagree that the hobby is MUCH better about this issue than it was 25 years ago, but it is NOT where we would like it to be. I was simply trying to say that the sexism has changed along with the game.

[TanithT]

thejeff wrote:

Some of the greater openness to sex may lead to more sex talk and activity in games, but that's not the major issue here. In itself, that's not sexist.

Agreed. It is a total non issue if some consenting adult gamers want more adult themes at their table, and it has nothing to do with their gender and orientation.

The only issue is if someone is doing explicit sex or rape talk or sexualization of characters at the gaming table, especially if they are directing it at a particular person, they need to make sure that they are doing it with consenting adults and not with people who are not adults or not consenting. That's all. If everyone is a consenting adult, doing adult stuff of any flavor is fine.

[Irontruth]

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

Are you claiming that the women in this thread are just making these incidents up?

Though it's not directed at me, I am a litle skeptical just how often this sort of thing happens. I have a fairly long history with the game (and many others), have played with a lot of different groups, and a lot of different people. I have playe with some people that really gave me some bad feelings, (** spoiler omitted **).

While I'm not saying that makes me an expert, I've never seen that sort of thing. Guys, well we are just not into rape, despite the picture some women want to paint. It is not a turn on, it is not something we think would be fun, and it is not something we would ever want to think or pretend to do to someone else.

Which of the women are you accusing of exaggerating or lying?

I ask it bluntly like that, because that is the implication of what you are saying.

[John Kretzer]

TanithT wrote:

Krisam wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

Are you claiming that the women in this thread are just making these incidents up?

That is certainly what it sounds like to me. It makes me angry, and sad. I think I've had enough of this thread. There are obvious posters who make it unpleasant to read.

Right. Because we all know there could never be any such thing at a gaming table as a creepy guy with no social skills and a bunch of other guys who mostly ignore or tolerate the behavior as "Oh, that's just how John is, don't mind John" and are willing to let him play anyway.

If you do mind John, even if John is that guy straight out of the Dead Alewives skit who keeps trying to act out sex at the table (consensual or otherwise) with the barmaids and asks (jokingly or not) if he can roll to rape your character, or roll for how big your character's boobs are, etc etc, you will be branded as either oversensitive or a flat out liar. Because gamers just don't do that kind of thing, and if they do, you'd better not talk about it because we just have to be tolerant.

I think most women who have been active in gaming for any length of time - Paizo employees, for instance - are unfortunately likely to have had some experiences with this sort of thing. Calling us all liars and handwaving the problem away as not really a problem is not going to fly.

Actually that IS a huge part of the problem right there.

To be fair...it is wise to take all anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt. I personaly believe what you said happened to you as well as the other women who have volunteered their stories. Mostly I don't see any benefit in anybody lying about it here.

I think you and others are misreading atleast some of the siturations in that I think it is more of a "Leave we don't want you here." than a "I am creepy and into rape" kind of thing. But that does not make it any less wrong, disgusting, etc.

Ans as I said before the only way to stop such behavior is to stamp it out ruthlessly. Can the PFS issue life time bans? If not...why not? Can Cons do the same?

[Shifty]

Irontruth wrote:

Are you claiming that the women in this thread are just making these incidents up?

Are you saying this is a 100% impossibility, and just because someone said something on the internet we should immediately believe their full story and accept that theirs is the only one worldview that can now even be considered?

Are you saying that if someone makes a claim that something is a widespread problem that you aren't entitled to ask for quantification and ask questions or express doubt because that's not what you are seeing on the ground? You don't find it slightly odd that when asking for more information they become immediately hostile and confrontational and start posturing up that you are calling them liars?

Think about it.

Now, based on the posts that a couple of people have put up, and in turn a bit of reading on RPGnet, seems this might be a problem in the US (although no stats have been provided anywhere, including an 85 pager on the very subject) and thats pretty concerning as theres no stories of arrests or police investigations etc.

There doesn't seem to be an issue here, but perhaps thats because of the size and scope (and activity) of the cons. We dont have the thousands of strangers cheek by jowl living in a hotel with cosplayers and 'booth babes'. We have people, at tables, who play through the day and go home. People would regard the arrival of booth babes the same way they would Snuffalufagus turning up... somewhere between confusion and slight bemusement.

TLDR: Sorry to hear there's apparently a problem for people at gaming-cons in the US, glad to report we are not having the same problem Down Under.

[Shifty]

Irontruth wrote:

Which of the women are you accusing of exaggerating or lying?

I ask it bluntly like that, because that is the implication of what you are saying.

I already directly called one person out and specified concerns - simply put nothing added up and I said so, my post was in turn deleted and I was cautioned by a mod.

Sorry IT, answering your question leads to some unhappy outcomes.

[Liz Courts]

Locking thread.

I'll remind people of this messageboard policies:

Messageboard Policies wrote:

Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.

Just because you haven't seen, heard, or experienced harassment doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Not all conventions are the same, nor do all conventions have the same atmosphere. No one person can speak for everybody, but neither can we all live in our happy bubble where bad things don't happen.

Because they do, and it sucks, and silence is the worst kind of response to receive when it happens.

We all want the same goal of bringing in more players to game, irrespective of their gender, and the first step is keeping an open mind and NOT dismissing another's experiences.

I appreciate the reasoned responses and proposals in this thread—it certainly gives me a lot of things to think about (and I hope it has for many other posters too). But accusing other posters of lying, or attacking them for their beliefs, experiences, or opinions, is not the way to carry out a discussion on these messageboards. Ever.