If you read the whole thing he repeatedly makes the point that it isn't intentional. You don't get to choose your difficulty level.
However the fundamental and fatal flaw is that he seems to think everyone is even playing the same game. Protip - we aren't.
It's waaaaaay too easy for discussions on these boards to get bogged down in discussing specifics of analogies, then we start using analogies to explain the analogies and we have to argue the specifics of those analogies too.
here's an idea for places that don't have a large group of female gamers to support a girls only event
why not have a girls only room/tables? sure you may still have some problems
but this would make for a more female friendly environment at the tables which is where you would be spending most of the time anyways
and the guys who throw a fit about a female only event that say it's not fair can still show up and game, just not at the female tables/rooms
if you were to go with this i would have set the female table in a privet female only room
some gamers have the social skills of a buzzard
Imagine this scenerio. You are a parent (do this twice once as a parent of either gender) you walk into a games shop. There are 5 tables of PFS going on. The tables are all guys and they look to be having fun.
Your children Vick and Lisa are twins around 13 years old.....
Vick wants to play.....(3-4 hours) there seem to be a lot of boys at the table his age. Do you let him?
Or
Vick is not interested and Lisa wants to play there are no females at the tables, it's 3 to 4 hours...
What do you do?
The store owner sees you hesitating about Lisa playing and says "we have an all female beginners game on thursday" You are welcome to stay and play as well or have some coffee and cookies."
"the guys here are great guys, but we are working to get a better gender mix at the tables during the week".
So why is taking steps to speed up the number of women at the tables such a bad thing?
I won´t let either of them, because i think it´s not really appropriate for 13 year old kids to play with adult strangers without me. In my eyes it´s also inapropriate to load your kids into someone else´s game if there are no other kids and it´s only adults. Because, you know, might be some of those adults have kids themselves and just found a babysitter and are happy having some time on their own.
I wouldn´t ask for a girls group then also, but for a kids group.That logic is heavily flawed somehow and implies a lot which is actually insulting in parts if you think it through.
FYI, in most of the child abduction and misuse cases were a lot of women involved.
As an addition, a women could get molested at a womens only evening as well, because there could also be misbehaving women. The same is true for men only evenings. (No offense, but some gay persons can just be as bad as any other persons and actually straight women can be the same, even to other straight women, same for men.) I actually know female persons that don´t like going to female only events because around here that often means there are a lot of homosexual women who of course (and i can´t blame them) use that as hunting grounds, which some other women in return don´t like and don´t know how to react to, even if they really don´t mind homosexuality itself.
A female lead mentorship program or seminars for other females explaining game mechanics and introduce them to the game or even better show them how to mechanically and organisationally GM games is a great idea. This could also include moderations techniques, learning how to emphazise different aspects of the game (if there are things that appeal more to women than men) and learning how to handle difficult persons and solve conflicts.
Having that officially for PFS could also be cool, because it could mean more players, more GM´s and eventually a new kind of challenge.
Edit: I overread the "his age". In that case i would let both of them go after checking what´s going on there and who´s the person in charge. My daughter would visit a mixed school and had sexual education at that age, i would be glad she´s only at a table playing rpg´s with boys her age than doing other stuff i did at that age. When i think of the default Yolo stuff today, i would be very happy with my children being at that store^^
why not have a girls only room/tables? sure you may still have some problems
Because I'd bet a dollar the problem would then be 'an empty room/table'.
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I don't really want to go back to arguing about privilege because it's obviously a waste of time. People get caught up with the specifics of a simplified metaphor and wind up feeling bad or guilty about something that is not meant to encourage those feelings.
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Earlier in the thread people were mentioning that women gamers might be more interested in less "hack-and-slash" and more "problem-solving" or "roleplaying-focused" modules. Personally I wonder if this is the case?
Maybe it's because I'm a fervent video gamer and also big fan of TTRPGs independent of the issues we've talked about, but I enjoy hack-and-slash just as much as I enjoy problem-solving or roleplaying. A little too much of one or the other gets boring no matter what the circumstances, but they all work together to create interesting and fun play-times.
There are a lot of women who enjoy games in the FPS, RTS and MOBA genres. LOADS. These 3 genres are much more about reflexes, skills, and strategy than immersive play. But many of them get turned off by the community that treats them like absolute shit and will decrease the amount they play or contribute in a given game. (If you think the experiences of female tabletop gamers is bad, just ask a hardcore FPS/RTS/MOBA player about the stuff they get hit with.)
But what I'm trying to get at is that I don't think that it's necessarily the content of modules that is pushing women away so much as the atmosphere around the table. As 8th pointed out above, if a girl walks into a gaming store and she's the only woman there, she'll have to be pretty damn self-assured to be okay just jumping in with the group. If she then has to deal with men talking over her, assuming she doesn't know the rules, making sexist comments (whether explicit or implicit), or being creepy in game or out, she's not going to come back next week.
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I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!
Sorry to jump back a couple of pages to grab this, but hi again, Alice! When Lissalapalooza is over, (our Easter Con: http://warhorn.net/shadowmoot) I'd love to try to get a regular public PFS event going in Newcastle again. It needs local support though, not only from players, but from GMs and someone willing to be the event organiser. But a big kick-off weekend might get a core group started, which is how Sibel managed to get Wollongong up and running. If you're up for this, please PM me and we'll get something organised.
Stephen White (VC Melbourne) and I are coordinating the PFS games for PAX Aus. We'll be promoting an inclusive and friendly environment for players there, just as we do at our own game days and conventions.
In terms of the inclusivity of the PFS scene in Sydney, I've been heartened by some of the encouraging comments made here but I'm also aware that we've lost several female players from the game days in Sydney as well. While it's of course entirely possible that several decided the game just wasn't for them in the end, I've alerted all to this thread and hope to hear their feedback on how we're doing and if there is anything that I could address.
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Hey Spider,
Stop tempting me to look at hotel prices for a weekend in Sydney! ;)
I would definitely be interested in being involved with a kick-off weekend up here. I will poke a couple of friends on Facebook and see if I can drum up some interest. I might PM you about things later too.
If you want to get interest from local young people, DEFINITELY put up ads around the university. It's O Week this week, so there will be plenty of young people wandering around wondering what they can do in this dead town from now on. :P
I agree with Alice. I know plenty of female gamers who play hack'n'slash and love it.
We don't necessarily need to change game design. We need to ensure that our spaces are welcoming and open. Once they're here and establish themselves as gamers, they will go on to create the exact kind of games they want to play, just like male gamers already do.
if that becomes the case you can then open the tables that are not being used by a female group to a mix group or a all male group even i'm not saying let the space go to waste just set aside in case you do have a group of female that want that kind of table would one or two table for females only be that bad
i find it hard to think that there are so few girl at these events that they cant even fill one table
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Hey Spider,
Stop tempting me to look at hotel prices for a weekend in Sydney! ;)
You would be very, very welcome. Perhaps you could bring a big group from Newcastle down! There are lots of tables to fill! I'm still looking into local accommodation options as there will be several players travelling in. Keep an eye on the warhorn site, and on our facebook page, if you're on there.
I would definitely be interested in being involved with a kick-off weekend up here. I will poke a couple of friends on Facebook and see if I can drum up some interest. I might PM you about things later too.
If you want to get interest from local young people, DEFINITELY put up ads around the university. It's O Week this week, so there will be plenty of young people wandering around wondering what they can do in this dead town from now on. :P
Great! I think April is looking good!
I've tried contact Newcastle Uni game groups in the past as well but with no success. I'll start looking into it again.
Earlier in the thread people were mentioning that women gamers might be more interested in less "hack-and-slash" and more "problem-solving" or "roleplaying-focused" modules. Personally I wonder if this is the case?
I did find it funny, but not "ha-ha" funny that when actual women suggest a girls night, that's shouted down. But when no women that I saw (I may be mistaken, I admit) suggested that "RPG's are just too violent". That got lots of immediete support.
I'd also like to suggest that many of us, myself included would be well-served on our game nights to consciously pay attention to a few things.
1) How often to you let someone finish speaking before you start? (Leaving aside the issue of how long you let them speak before you start to formulate your response.)
2) How often do you answer questions that weren't actually asked? And by this I mean, the expression of an opinion is not necessarily an invitation for critique or argument. And neither is hesitation an explicit invitation for advice.
3) How often do you let anyone else have the last word. Especially, versus how often you fight to the bitter, exhausted end?
You might be surprised at how uninviting this behavior can be to strangers and newbs of any gender, regardless of how friendly you think your group is.
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I'm going to wade in on this discussion, because I think the original intent of the thread has a lot of merit. And, despite the back-and-forth posturing I've read so far (including the steps Paizo's moderators have had to take to keep everyone in line), I think the problem is real, and I'm interested in discussing some potential solutions to it. I believe the hobby could really benefit from more lady gamers because of the unique perspectives and approaches they can bring to the game and the gaming industry. I believe they face a lot of challenges (as capably voiced by Jessica and many of the other ladies so far). And, as a father with three girls who are starting to express their own interest in Pathfinder and roleplaying games, I feel a lot of responsibility to make it the same rewarding experience for them which I've enjoyed for so many years.
So, for a long time, I intentionally held off from commenting here. Not because I don't have an opinion or any ideas for improving things. Instead, I stood back because I didn't want to stifle anyone's voice, particularly the ladies who are obviously trying to get involved here. That said, the discussion can't (and shouldn't) just be among the ladies. The men have to get involved, because we're playing a role (consciously or otherwise) in how the hobby got to where it is and how its traditions are maintained. More than anyone else, we've got a huge opportunity to be change agents if we want to make a difference.
Now, I've read through this whole thread, and I'll be darned if I don't see a lot of people standing in the way...whether they realize it or not. Some are well-intentioned, bringing up a variety of points and topics in the course of arguing with one another which threaten to completely derail the thread. Some are misguided, having lost sight of the original poster's goal in starting this discussion in the first place, and then getting sucked into engaging various trolls who are contributing nothing of value. And some are just being completely obtuse, whether on purpose or just because they're truly clueless and/or resistant to the notion that there's even a problem to be discussed in the first place. Or, they want to quibble over the definition of the problem before they can even consider possible solutions.
To help guide things a bit, I'd like to propose the following:
1) We Have A Problem - There are a lot less lady gamers in the hobby. It could grow by leaps and bounds if more of them became invested in roleplaying games. There's no doubt they'd add a lot of dynamic ideas for the gaming table (and the industry, if they go on to become designers themselves). And, it's in all of our interests to examine what can be done to foster more involvement from them.
2) Contribute Solutions Or Get Out - If you can't acknowledge that a problem even exists...or, if you want to quibble over the semantics of how it's defined...this really isn't the thread for you. There are plenty of other places where you can have discussions about societal sexism, reverse sexism/discrimination, and share horror stories of your past experiences and the experiences of those you know. None of that, however, is really all that germane to the discussion most everyone else is trying to have. So, check yourself and how you've chosen to engage in this thread. If you're not acknowledging the problem exists and proposing ideas for dealing with it, you're just weighing things down. If you're feeding those who keep pursuing these deadend tangents, you're also weighing things down. Removing yourself from the equation (or just going silent and reading along until you actually do have something useful to contribute) would be your best option.
3) Paizo Is Listening - I can see multiple representatives from Paizo (Jessica, Sean, Judy, Liz, Mike, etc.) have all shown a willingness to nurture this conversation and contribute to it. You've got their ear. And, if there's anything they can do on their side as a publisher, I'm sure they're interested in hearing everyone's ideas. So, make the most of this forum and give them some. Don't waste time by waging a battle of the sexes via the Internet, because we all know nothing good is going to come of that.
4) We Are The Real Stewards Of The Game - Ultimately, it's on us how we run our gaming tables. Yes, organized play (such as Pathfinder Society) can set guidelines which all Venture Captains, Venture Lieutenants, GMs, and players are expected to follow, but that's just a fraction of the games that are being played. If you're interested in making the gaming table a more welcoming environment for female gamers, it's on the gaming community as a whole to figure out how to make a difference. We're on the front lines. Thus, we have the greatest (and most frequent) opportunities to take a direct hand in changing anything.
5) Begin With The Goal In Mind - One of the techniques I've used in a corporate setting when leading discussions on problem-solving is to think of your situation like an archer's target. Define the bullseye by defining the end goal you have in mind. Shut out everything else until you've defined that goal, because that's what's most important. Don't focus on all the ancillary stuff (i.e., the additional rings around the bullseye) yet. We can look at that stuff later. First, define the problem and define what success looks like. For our purposes, the problem is that there aren't enough women taking part in the hobby. If we hit the bullseye, there'll hopefully be more women in the hobby...in whatever capacity we can imagine...i.e., whether as new players, new GMs, new designers/authors, or even new 3PPs or employees at Paizo, etc. With that in mind, we can widen out from the bullseye. Each ring after that represents additional steps which contribute to our ultimate goal. And, the more of those we can hit, the closer we'll come to the bullseye. These can be smaller targets which are easier to hit, but each one represents an idea or small step which supports the goal we have in mind. The more of those we can create, the more we can build a framework and a structured approach to making a difference towards reaching the bullseye. With all of that in mind, it becomes imperative that we start generating ideas which we can turn into solutions...and solutions we can actually implement so they become actionable.
6) Ideas --> Solutions --> Actions - Our focus should turn away from the points everyone's been rehashing so far. If you're not generating ideas, you're not helping to craft potential solutions. And if you're not trying to solve the problem, there's nothing actionable, which means we're just wasting everyone's time and going in circles, while we pick at our collective navels. If you want to do something to help, focus on these things. Propose ideas. Discuss how those can be widened into potential solutions. And then discuss how they can be implemented, either as individual or collective actions by us or Paizo. Do that, and you start making a difference. Do anything else, and you're just delaying progress, standing in the way, or intentionally sabotaging everyone else's efforts.
So, with that in mind, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is by proposing some ideas for consideration. As everyone knows (and if all that stuff above didn't give it away), I'm incredibly long-winded. So, I'm going to spoiler my laundry list of ideas. Feel free to pick away at some of these, modify or tweak them, throw in your own, and so on. The only way this thread takes a turn for the better is if people get involved in generating more ideas.
Ideas For Fostering More Female Gamers:
- Women-Only Game Night - As some people have already proposed, women could probably benefit from occasional games where there are no men present. Give them an opportunity to learn among themselves and support one another first. Short term, this will have the effect of making games feel more welcoming. Long term, however, they need to start mixing with the men. I'd recommend some 50/50 tables afterward to start widening the interaction. We can do some of this in our own home games, but organized play could especially benefit from it.
- GMing 101 Topics and Scenarios - One of the cool things put on at last year's PaizoCon and GenCon were a variety of common situations that PFS GMs face at the table, along with advice and roleplay situations to test folks on how to handle them. Make sure the topic of gender-based behaviors gets discussed. Train up the GMs on the role they'll play in making sure the gaming table is a welcoming/fun environment for female players. Additionally, work on training more female GMs to inspire more ladies to participate in gaming and follow in their footsteps.
- Attract More Female Designers and Developers - Make it a point to promote diversity in the hobby by giving more opportunities to female freelance designers/authors and on-staff developers. Don't just hire them. Train and promote them. Build them up however you can. Their presence in the industry will be noticed by other female gamers once they find their way into the hobby. And, hopefully, some of them get inspired to take their own shot at a career in game design. From there, their work products add to the industry, hopefully with themes and designs which resonate with the female player base, feeding into a perpetuating cycle of gamer growth.
- Create More Women-Only Events - Besides just establishing women-only games, occasionally create some events where only lady gamers can submit. Maybe it's a PFS scenario opportunity? Maybe it's just the proposal for a new adventure or NPC which will appear in an adventure, which they don't have to write, but have a hand in imagining? Maybe it's a section of Wayfinder devoted to submissions received from lady gamers so they can be highlighted and marketed? Maybe it's a women-only writer's support group? Regardless, advertise these opportunities to attract a larger female membership and encourage their growth. This isn't to segregate (though I know a lot of people will probably imagine it to be). Instead, it's an initial way to make things more welcoming for lady gamers and to ease them into the hobby. From there, they're certainly free to expand and join the wider gaming community in events and organizations that aren't women-only. Yes, I realize there's no men-only counterparts to this suggestion. That's because it's not needed. So, don't knock it just because you (as a guy) don't see a need for it. You probably came into this hobby when it was male-dominated. So, you've never faced any of the problems, situations, or challenges lady gamers are facing now.
- Less Pin-Up, More Realistic Art - This has been discussed already...and Paizo takes more steps to address this than most publishers. Sex is obviously still going to sell. But you can have attractive females depicted in art without full-on objectification. Art is worth a thousand words. And, if ladies see females depicted in art which inspires them, it'll naturally draw more of them to the game.
- More Surveys/Marketing Directed At Women - I think I saw someone raise this point earlier, as well. But, find a way to target the female audience with a survey. Ask them what they want. Ask them what appeals to them. Poll the current ladies in the hobby or at your gaming tables. What do they want as players? What topics and subject matter interest them? Collect that information and then act on it by giving them what they want. It's not going to be so different from what's already out there that male gamers will be put off by it. And it doesn't have to be packaged in girly trappings. It just needs to avoid overly sexualized trappings.
- More Strong Female Characters - This has come up, too. But spend some efforts towards including more strong, inspirational female characters in the APs, adventure modules, campaign setting, and novels. You don't have to go overboard with it. Just be aware of how things are tilted and adjust it, as necessary. Specifically target the introduction of some female characters that you know will resonate with potential lady gamers. Additionally, give more direction to your developers and your authors (both freelance and otherwise) on how to address women's issues and female characterization in your products. Play up the importance of this in the freelancer guidelines. Even after a manuscript is turned over, make sure you give the authors feedback on how they addressed such things so they can improve on it.
- More Panels at PaizoCon and GenCon - Create a panel to discuss these topics at PaizoCon initially, and then GenCon. Advertise its purpose...i.e., to reach out to the ladies for the express purpose of getting them more involved in the hobby and the industry. Put an array of ladies on the panel...such as, Lisa Stevens (female CEO of a publishing company), Jessica Price (project manager for a publishing company), Sara Marie (customer service rep for a publishing company), Amber Scott (freelance author and designer), a female PFS GM, a female gamer/player, a female participant from RPG Superstar, etc. And, include one guy on the panel for the male perspective...someone with a lot of experience in running games with ladies at the table.
- New Design Challenges Involving Gender - Create a new RPG Superstar design challenge or constraint...something like "Design a Female NPC" with direction to make sure it appropriately supports positive female gender roles in the game. Actually have the judges comment on its appropriateness and include a female guest judge (maybe Jessica?) for her take on it.
- Start An "Ask Jessica Thread" On The Forums - Along the same lines as the lengthy ongoing interaction James Jacobs has with fans of Paizo via his "Ask James Jacobs..." thread, create one for Jessica...or any other female Paizo employee up to the challenge...where fans of Paizo can interact. Essentially, this would become a forum with the female perspective continuously shared on just about any gaming-related topic. That alone would make for a more welcoming, engaging environment for female fans and supporters of Paizo. But, the guys could participate, too. And, maybe in all that interaction, it too helps to improve the dialogue. Not necessarily on a continuing discussion of a hot button topic like sexism. Make sure the forum explores a variety of topics. Pretty much any game-related discussion should be fair game. The important thing is that there's a female gamer answering. Because, if the existing lady gamers want to see changes for the better, they need to get out there and lead the effort. Become more visible. Become more engaging. Become more inspirational to others.
- Teach The Next Generation - We all bear the responsibility of how we introduce others to the hobby. That's been true for decades. It's pretty much how we all got into gaming. As such, be more aware of the challenges the average female gamer faces. Age out the boy's club attitudes of the past. Raise your sons to be more self-aware. Raise your daughters to be more confident. If you want things to be different, you've got to model the behavior for the next generation to follow. It's okay to have a men's night at the man cave now and then. Run your games however you want in that environment. And, frankly, the same goes for the women's night if they choose to gather in a similar fashion. The important thing is when it's not a gender-exclusive event. That's when you've got to be more self-aware and edit yourself so you don't perpetuate the problems many lady gamers have described here.
- Write A Lady's Guide To Gaming - I've seen similar books before. But, much like Paizo has redefined so many other components of the game, why not do your own version of a lady's guide to gaming? Bring together a collection of female perspectives on the issue and do something with the same level of attention and quality you bring to every other gaming supplement. Or even produce it as a free PDF. Regardless, market it. Call attention to it. Get it into the hands of the wives, girlfriends, and other potential female gamers. Make sure the husbands, boyfriends, fathers, and other male gamers have access to it. And count on all of them to help spread the word.
- Create A Gamer's Pledge - It may sound hokey, but create a gamer's pledge which incorporates equal consideration for all genders and the fostering of better game experiences at the table between men and women. Maybe even establish a certification that goes along with such a pledge...especially for PFS GMs...kind of like a badge of honor or something the GMs can advertise which lets lady gamers know a particular GM runs an all gender-friendly table and guards against players and situations which might offend anyone. Setup a feedback loop for complaints if someone who takes the pledge doesn't live up to it so any certification in it can be revoked.
- Reward Those Who Introduce More Women To Gaming - Track the gender of new players who are introduced to PFS. For GMs who run a table including a new female gamer, ask the gamer to complete a short survey on her experience and how the GM ran the table. For those who score high enough, reward them for doing their part in making the game a success...particularly, if the female gamer indicates she plans on playing again (and follows up on it by playing in another scenario). In this fashion, you incent GMs for organized play to actively go out of their way to encourage involvement, participation, and a great gaming experience for new female players.
- Establish An Industry Award - Create a new award (possibly through the ENnies?) for the most accommodating female-friendly product produced each year. Only let female gamers and industry stalwarts vote on it.
- Products By Women For Women - Do a trial run of once-a-year gaming products designed only by female game designers, touching on topics and themes specifically suited to what lady gamers say they're interested in via whatever surveys and polls you're able to conduct. Or, make it more open (i.e., similar to RPG Superstar) and let the female gaming community vote on various proposals for what they'd like to see in print. Cross-pollinate the ideas and interests which get shared through these products into the main product lines so they too become more interesting to female gamers. I'm not suggesting that ladies don't share the same interests as men at the gaming table. I'm just advocating that you might foster more involvement from women if they're given a platform from which to affect a new product designed with their input.
Okay. So, yeah...probably a little overboard in the idea-sharing department. But, I wanted to throw out as many possible ideas as I could imagine. I think what's important is that everyone else throw in their own ideas. Or refine one of these. Don't focus on tearing ideas down. Just focus on how to come up with better ideas or improve on them. And, once a strong list takes shape, hopefully folks can start to figure out ways to implement them. By doing that, we'll come one step closer to the bullseye. Because that's what matters.
My two cents,
--Neil
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I've tried contact Newcastle Uni game groups in the past as well but with no success. I'll start looking into it again.
I don't know very much about the local gaming scene, to be honest. Every once in a while I talked to someone who was starting up a home game or had a game going on, but it never got off the ground or they never contacted me back. One person once remarked to me that Newcastle does have a gaming scene, it's just almost invisible to outsiders.
The only thing I know about UoN's games in particular is that the Anime Club used to play 4e sometimes. Their website seems to suggest they're still interested in tabletop games too. I went on exchange overseas for a year though, so I'm kind of out of touch with what's going on nowadays.
Maybe I'll go talk to the Anime Club this week at their O Week stall and see if they'd be interested in "hosting" PFS games.
EDIT: Posted on their Facebook wall - we'll see what happens.
I did find it funny, but not "ha-ha" funny that when actual women suggest a girls night, that's shouted down. But when no women that I saw (I may be mistaken, I admit) suggested that "RPG's are just too violent". That got lots of immediete support.
The irony was not lost on me. I just decided to roll my eyes and take a slightly more diplomatic route than try and tackle that mess head-on.
3) How often do you let anyone else have the last word. Especially, versus how often you fight to the bitter, exhausted end?
This is the internet...nobody here can let anybody have the last word.
Anyway I am taking a break from this thread for the night.
I do want to make a observation though....the problems is not the jerks as such at gaming tables...it is the tolerence of jerks that is the problem.
I play regulary...with a jerk He is great guy. He would give you his right arm if you ask. But he is under this delusion that if you preface a statement with "No Offense" whatever you say after it is OK. He also believes since he is ok with having his race, gender, etc made fun of it is ok for him to do so.
The people in group tolerated this because of various reasons. Mostly to aviod a confrontation. Finally it came to ahead at a session and he sent a e-mail to the group. I responded to him him private about his objectionable behavior and he has improved during the actual game. If he had not I am pretty sure I would have left the game or he would have been kicked out.
I'll paraphase a old saying to make it less sexist 'The only thing neccessary for evil to win is for good people to do nothing'.
Neil,
I'm not a woman, but I am a father of one, and I support the creation of strong female characters. We have a very difficult time finding fantasy literature for her. She LOVES Kyra, and that was a definite factor in my choosing Pathfinder over D&D when I decided to force RPG's onto my kids :-). More in that vein would be a big hit I'm sure.
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Wow, long list of ideas there Neil! I think some of them would be quite helpful. I'll add another as well:
I for one enjoy watching videos of games being played, like the "Celebrity D&D" or "Acquisitions Inc". What if Paizo put something like that together (or anyone else for that matter) and had 50% female players? That would be a visible way of showing "Hey, women play this game too", and I think both men and women could enjoy watching it. It might be helpful for any new gamer to be able to see the game being played.
What if Paizo put something like that together (or anyone else for that matter) and had 50% female players? That would be a visible way of showing "Hey, women play this game too", and I think both men and women could enjoy watching it. It might be helpful for any new gamer to be able to see the game being played.
True. That might even make for a useful training video for the GM'ing 101 track. Or just a resource for anyone to download or watch if it was hosted here or on YouTube.
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One thing I've noticed. I've noticed a lot more gender parity in White Wolf games I've taken part in. And their art - while usually/often NSFW - reflects a male/female or queer/straight gaze pretty equally.
Art is like a signpost saying I hear you. PF art is pretty good in this regard, but traditional fantasy gaming as a genre is not so much. And a lot of first impressions of the overall industry can slant how people choose their game. So Paizo on its own can do something, but not everything in terms of how they aesthetically advertise their attitudes.
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that an industry wide initiative would be good.
Brilliant stuff
1000% support it all.
...Paizo on its own can do something, but not everything in terms of how they aesthetically advertise their attitudes.
One thing to recognize, however, is that their position is much improved as an industry leader now. How Paizo conducts itself (and their resulting success) goes a long way in influencing other publishers, as well as what the marketplace looks for in a gaming product. They've got the bully pulpit. Maybe it's time to use it on this particular topic?
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One thing to recognize, however, is that their position is much improved as an industry leader now. How Paizo conducts itself (and their resulting success) goes a long way in influencing other publishers, as well as what the marketplace looks for in a gaming product. They've got the bully pulpit. Maybe it's time to use it on this particular topic?...Paizo on its own can do something, but not everything in terms of how they aesthetically advertise their attitudes.
Yeah. I just edited my post to take that tack, half way. But as you say, industry leader = industry leader, not just economically.
I don't want male-only counterparts to female-only gaming events because I have a desire to attend a male-only gaming event. I want them because I suspect they would improve the quality of mixed-gender gaming events. If some percentage of men prefer and choose to attend male-only gaming events, there would be a higher percentage of women at mixed-gender tables, and a lower percentage of men with a boys' club mindset (since the actual boys' club is at another table). This could only serve to make mixed-gender gaming events a bit less hostile towards women.
A really excellent point.
In general, I think PFS could benefit from classifying a few tables as women-only, men-only, 50/50, and open. Then, when mustering players, just be conscious of how you seat them. Rotate them through so they eventually all have the full range of gaming experiences. Maybe even create a tick list and give them an added boon if they complete the circuit (i.e., gender-specific table, 50/50 table, and open table). The bottom line is that you're ensuring players get out of their comfort zone and you're also ensuring that lady gamers get an opportunity to explore gaming completely within their comfort zone now and then, too.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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A really excellent point.In general, I think PFS could benefit from classifying a few tables as women-only, men-only, 50/50, and open. Then, when mustering players, just be conscious of how you seat them. Rotate them through so they eventually all have the full range of gaming experiences. Maybe even create a tick list and give them an added boon if they complete the circuit (i.e., gender-specific table, 50/50 table, and open table). The bottom line is that you're ensuring players get out of their comfort zone and you're also ensuring that lady gamers get an opportunity to explore gaming completely within their comfort zone now and then, too.
Trust me Neil, if there had ever been any interest expressed, we certainly would do that at Gen Con. On my blog post tomorrow, you will see that this year at Gen Con, I'm scheduling an entire kid's beginner and advanced track all 10 slots for kids 12 and under, Beginner Box five hour intros in every slot geared at people brand new to RPGs or Pathfinder in all 10 slots, French and Spanish language tables in 8 slots, etc...
If anyone, ANYONE, had approached me to schedule women's only games at Gen Con, I would have been more than happy to schedule 1-5 tables per slot for all 10 slots, and made sure our best female GMs, including five and four star female GMs, were running those tables. But, I've received no PMs, emails, phone calls, or any other requests whatsoever to schedule.
If you want more female players, how about reflecting how a person finds her way to the game? I think there is a big difference between men and women, what surely plays a role. The typical way around here i am aware of is that some girl has or had a boyfriend who first convinced her to participate and then included her successfully or a girl was included by her gang or brothers. She might have included herself for whatever reason too.
Over here most small gaming shops closed because of rents and amazon. I think there are some in bigger towns, doesn´t matter though.
It might be the case that a girl is drawn into such a place because of other things there like manga and anime or even Harry Potter and then one day just expands.
But i think more usualy you know someone who already plays PF and then are invited to join or express your own interest.
In my town there is a monthly organized Midgard event where there is a high number of female players. I went there twice and was astonished, but i didn´t disturb other people by going around and asking a lot of questions, which i would have loved. Perhaps i will ask the guys running that event if i can make a survey there.
But obviously there is one thing making Midgard highly popular and wellknown. It´s about Lord of the rings and hobbits and Tolkien, directly linked with it. While Pathfinder has a range of products, how many girls read Pathfinder novels or comics? The big hook is lacking somehow i think.
Pathfinder online is on the way and might bring a change there, but something like a good movie directly linked with Pathfinder would of course be worldrocking.
PFS is not so strong here, so it´s normally centered on home games.
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Trust me Neil, if there had ever been any interest expressed, we certainly would do that at Gen Con. On my blog post tomorrow, you will see that this year at Gen Con, I'm scheduling an entire kid's beginner and advanced track all 10 slots for kids 12 and under, Beginner Box five hour intros in every slot geared at people brand new to RPGs or Pathfinder in all 10 slots, French and Spanish language tables in 8 slots, etc...
If anyone, ANYONE, had approached me to schedule women's only games at Gen Con, I would have been more than happy to schedule 1-5 tables per slot for all 10 slots, and made sure our best female GMs, including five and four star female GMs, were running those tables. But, I've received no PMs, emails, phone calls, or any other requests whatsoever to schedule.
I hear you, Mike. And frankly, I'm not surprised. I don't think this is one of those situations where someone will voice the need. It's more of a thing you'd have to build and attract interest to by advertising it. I think female gamers (or those who watch their husbands, boyfriends, sons, etc. get into it) aren't necessarily the most assertive when it comes to expressing an interest for themselves. I agree that it would be great if they did. And I completely acknowledge that even if you build a women-only track like that, it might go unused or underserved in the early going. But, even so, it might get the ball rolling. If it's never tried (or sustained for a bit), there's really no way to know. Maybe by discussing it here (and elsewhere in the run-up to PaizoCon and GenCon), it'll attract more ladies to the idea and see what they think?
P.S. It's great to hear about the kids' track. I steered a lot of families your way from the Paizo booth last year. And I was happy to see them gaming together at the Beginner's Box demos on my walk-through of the PFS room.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If anyone, ANYONE, had approached me to schedule women's only games at Gen Con, I would have been more than happy to schedule 1-5 tables per slot for all 10 slots, and made sure our best female GMs, including five and four star female GMs, were running those tables. But, I've received no PMs, emails, phone calls, or any other requests whatsoever to schedule.
Is it too late to request it now?
I'm neither female nor planning to attend GenCon, but like Neil said, it's probably something that needs to exist before it's requested, rather than the other way around.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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If anyone, ANYONE, had approached me to schedule women's only games at Gen Con, I would have been more than happy to schedule 1-5 tables per slot for all 10 slots, and made sure our best female GMs, including five and four star female GMs, were running those tables. But, I've received no PMs, emails, phone calls, or any other requests whatsoever to schedule.Is it too late to request it now?
I'm neither female nor planning to attend GenCon, but like Neil said, it's probably something that needs to exist before it's requested, rather than the other way around.
I've already submitted the schedule to Gen Con. I will have to speak with them and see. Even if we are able to add it, it will most likely start with only one table a slot this year, much like the Spanish and French language tables. I have to see interest and requests for it before I can dedicate more resources to it that would go otherwise unused.
*Sticks a cautious toe in the water.*
I have been reading along most of the way, but I wasn't sure whether to speak up or not as I'm always aware of being something of an oddity where gender and gender issues come into play.
I do like most of Neil's suggestions, with one exception. A Ladies' Guide would be more likely to put me off than raise my interest. I think that's partly to do with previous bad experiences, but other ones I've tried all made a lot of assumptions about what women like (or should like) that just sat very wrong with me.
Regarding art, I would love to see more ages and bodytypes being badass in art, particularly older (as in greyhaired/wrinkled non-haglike) women and bulkier (as in fat/heavy muscled all over, not just on the bust) women. I would also delight in seeing some completely androgynous (gender unspecified and unidentifiable) badass heroics, but I know that's unlikely. Practical outfits make me go 'Nice! I want one', skimpy/ridiculous outfits make me go 'meh, whatever, anything interesting here?' However, I often don't actually notice poses unless someone points them out to me.
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I don't know if this was mentioned but what about reporting bad behavior towards women to a GM, coordinator, or hobby store owner. I would think by doing this we could deter it from happening and creating a comfortable gaming space. This has worked before from what I've seen in a local hobby store. A guy was making lewd comments about a woman in the store and my friend overheard, confronted him about his attitude, then reported it to the store owner. The owner said that any such behavior would be an automatic ban from the store. The guy was kicked out but an interesting thing happened. Word about what happened got out and the store saw an increase in women players. More and more women started attending sessions and wanted to try playing role playing games.
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I don't know if this was mentioned but what about reporting bad behavior towards women to a GM, coordinator, or hobby store owner. I would think by doing this we could deter it from happening and creating a comfortable gaming space. This has worked before from what I've seen in a local hobby store. A guy was making lewd comments about a woman in the store and my friend overheard, confronted him about his attitude, then reported it to the store owner. The owner said that any such behavior would be an automatic ban from the store. The guy was kicked out but an interesting thing happened. Word about what happened got out and the store saw an increase in women players. More and more women started attending sessions and wanted to try playing role playing games.
Speak up about bad behavior no matter who it's directed against and no matter who is doing it. If someone is a jerk to a guy, you should step in too. If a woman is being a jerk to someone else, step in too. Guys are hardly immune to being subjected to bad behavior, and women are not immune to committing it. Do the right thing regardless.
One thing I've noticed. I've noticed a lot more gender parity in White Wolf games I've taken part in. And their art - while usually/often NSFW - reflects a male/female or queer/straight gaze pretty equally.
It's my experience too and it seems to support hypothesis that many (but not all) women gamers tend to have mild to strong preference to story-oriented and/or role-playing focusing games more than traditional hack'n'slash games and game mechanics-focusing ("roll-playing") games.
Art is like a signpost saying I hear you. PF art is pretty good in this regard, but traditional fantasy gaming as a genre is not so much. And a lot of first impressions of the overall industry can slant how people choose their game. So Paizo on its own can do something, but not everything in terms of how they aesthetically advertise their attitudes.
IIRC White Wolf, like Paizo had very diverse staff when it came to gender and/or sexuality. It might have influenced their choice of art and topics covered.
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So I'm going to start this with a disclaimer and then give my opinion on this whole topic. I acknowledge that there are females in the hobby/industry that have faced sexism and harassment, while my comments are meant to offend anyone or demean those experiences; however, my experience in the game world has been a little different.
The original question was how to make gaming friendlier for females, to me it's really simple
Don't single them out -- who wants to be the one singled out as the newb or other at the gaming table? That only succeeds in making the person more uncomfortable and less likely to enjoy themselves. If you want to make females more comfortable at the gaming table, treat them like another gamer – not like the girl or the newb, just another gamer.
Offer options – one thing I’ve noticed with the new male gamer is that we give them options about what to do for their action, it’s phrased as ‘you could do this or could do that’, however with female gamers it’s ‘you should do this or you have to do this’. Don’t assume that the girl doesn't know what she’s doing, allow her to use the brains that she was given and make a decision as to what she wants to do.
Women gamers don’t necessarily want special treatment, they just want to fit in and be accepted for what they are. Not put on a pedestal and to have the guys’ tip-toeing around them and treating them like fragile little creatures that can’t handle things for themselves.
I have experienced nothing but acceptance from all the guys that I have gamed with, they have always been there if I have had a question and they haven’t treated me any different that if I was one of the guys (which is what I personally prefer). If you see/hear me saying “but I’m the girl” it’s because I’m making a joke towards the fact that as an industry we have had to create this gender divide. I don’t think there needs to be one, and I’m not sure why we can’t all just treat each other as humans and not as males or females.
A really excellent point.In general, I think PFS could benefit from classifying a few tables as women-only, men-only, 50/50, and open. Then, when mustering players, just be conscious of how you seat them. Rotate them through so they eventually all have the full range of gaming experiences. Maybe even create a tick list and give them an added boon if they complete the circuit (i.e., gender-specific table, 50/50 table, and open table). The bottom line is that you're ensuring players get out of their comfort zone and you're also ensuring that lady gamers get an opportunity to explore gaming completely within their comfort zone now and then, too.
Trust me Neil, if there had ever been any interest expressed, we certainly would do that at Gen Con. On my blog post tomorrow, you will see that this year at Gen Con, I'm scheduling an entire kid's beginner and advanced track all 10 slots for kids 12 and under, Beginner Box five hour intros in every slot geared at people brand new to RPGs or Pathfinder in all 10 slots, French and Spanish language tables in 8 slots, etc...
If anyone, ANYONE, had approached me to schedule women's only games at Gen Con, I would have been more than happy to schedule 1-5 tables per slot for all 10 slots, and made sure our best female GMs, including five and four star female GMs, were running those tables. But, I've received no PMs, emails, phone calls, or any other requests whatsoever to schedule.
This would be interesting, I'd be more than willing to run the women only tables ..
I've already submitted the schedule to Gen Con. I will have to speak with them and see. Even if we are able to add it, it will most likely start with only one table a slot this year, much like the Spanish and French language tables. I have to see interest and requests for it before I can dedicate more resources to it that would go otherwise unused.If anyone, ANYONE, had approached me to schedule women's only games at Gen Con, I would have been more than happy to schedule 1-5 tables per slot for all 10 slots, and made sure our best female GMs, including five and four star female GMs, were running those tables. But, I've received no PMs, emails, phone calls, or any other requests whatsoever to schedule.Is it too late to request it now?
I'm neither female nor planning to attend GenCon, but like Neil said, it's probably something that needs to exist before it's requested, rather than the other way around.
Aww, man! We just decided we can't afford a trip to Gencon this year... If I were attending, I'd totally agree to be seated at a woman-only table to help support the cause :)
Edit to add to the discussion: As a female, I've only had two bad experiences so far that I BELIEVE to be because of my gender:
The first was with a newer player we had picked up in a homebrew game, who decided he was going to spend most of the game telling me how to build my character and how to player her. Probably so far my worst experience in Pathfinder. It really sucks to have someone criticize everything you do when you're playing a game for fun.
The second one was much more minor. My first PFS game I attended, one of the guys at the table questioned a majority of the things I tried to do on my turns. It got to a point where he finally decided to tell me I didn't understand how one of my traits worked, and I announced firmly to the GM that I would like him to read the trait from my supplement and tell me if I had made a mistake. Turns out I understood it after all, and the player didn't say anything else after that ;) Although maybe he thought he was helping *shrug*
I think that sort of proves, at least in my experience, that the worst thing you can do to a female is try to tell her how to play (in an unwelcome manner). My first experience actually caused me to quit playing for a few months, but luckily, my boyfriend managed to convince me to give it another shot.
Never had any problems at my gaming tables. I treat females like all decent humans should be treated, and that's with respect. Sounds more like immaturity problems than sexism to me here. How come no other gaming companies have had such uproars about all these sensitive issues? I mean come on it's a roleplaying game, not a politcal poll on government issues.
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Never had any problems at my gaming tables. I treat females like all decent humans should be treated, and that's with respect. Sounds more like immaturity problems than sexism to me here. How come no other gaming companies have had such uproars about all these sensitive issues? I mean come on it's a roleplaying game, not a politcal poll on government issues.
Thank you for coming in here and categorically dismissing everything every single woman (and a number of men too) has said on the topic. (Please note the sarcasm.)
I'm glad that you've not had problems at your tables. Honestly. But there are clearly many people that HAVE had problems. That doesn't make your experience wrong--but nor does it give you the right to tell them that they don't know what they have been through.
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Apparently, this bears repeating...
2) Contribute Solutions Or Get Out - If you can't acknowledge that a problem even exists...or, if you want to quibble over the semantics of how it's defined...this really isn't the thread for you. There are plenty of other places where you can have discussions about societal sexism, reverse sexism/discrimination, and share horror stories of your past experiences and the experiences of those you know. None of that, however, is really all that germane to the discussion most everyone else is trying to have. So, check yourself and how you've chosen to engage in this thread. If you're not acknowledging the problem exists and proposing ideas for dealing with it, you're just weighing things down. If you're feeding those who keep pursuing these deadend tangents, you're also weighing things down. Removing yourself from the equation (or just going silent and reading along until you actually do have something useful to contribute) would be your best option.
And, if necessary, I may just keep reposting it until it sinks in...
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That reminds me of something. It's only a little thing but - at mixed tables, think about how you address the group as a whole. Sometimes the male presumptive gets really wearing (at least for me).
Hi, guys, I'm your GM...
Ok, guys, you turn the corner and see...
Hey, guys, are you paying attention? It's your turn...
I've weaned my regulars off it by the simple method of addressing the male members as female every time they address the group as male, so the default there is now 'folks' or 'people', but it's still something that seems to crop up fairly often.
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Well, one thing that was mentioned before was that many female gamers seem to enjoy the interpersonal role-playing part more than combat (though some women like that too). Are there any organized adventures that are mostly talking, perhaps piecing together a murder mystery by interviewing witnesses and suspects, examining the scene of the crime, etc? Maybe even adapt or frankenstein together something from Sherlock Holmes, Agatha Christie, etc. I think that may go over quite well.I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!
I'm hoping that it isn't. Gender imbalance in Brisbane is huge. There are female pathfinder players out there, most of them I know of play in home campaigns. I am not a hundred percent certain why they do not attend - many of their partners do - and have been trying to get a better understanding of this. Could be time of the week sessions run, the perception of it being a boys club (which it isn't) or that, like a lot of male gamers also, they're just not that into organised play and prefer the ongoing campaign vibe.
Always open for suggestions on how to change this...
Totally agree. Many male gamers enjoy it that way too {:-)
Severing Ties, The Disappearance, The Sundering are really good for this, and I think Fortress of the Nail will be too; running that this week.
There is still come combat, but the roleplaying elements can be easily pushed. Encouraging the creative solutions clause is a great way to avoid combat, though I have seen some GMs stonewall this kind of behavior, which is frowned on round these parts.
This is what i mean and it should get investigated, which is probably the only way to really find out.I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!
I'm hoping that it isn't. Gender imbalance in Brisbane is huge. There are female pathfinder players out there, most of them I know of play in home campaigns. I am not a hundred percent certain why they do not attend - many of their partners do - and have been trying to get a better understanding of this. Could be time of the week sessions run, the perception of it being a boys club (which it isn't) or that, like a lot of male gamers also, they're just not that into organised play and prefer the ongoing campaign vibe.
Always open for suggestions on how to change this...
Totally. Consider an investigation underway from Brisbane, Australia.
Wait... 'Guys' is a gender neutral term.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guy
2. Usually, guys. Informal. persons of either sex; people: Could one of you guys help me with this?
I find it strange that in America so many words have one, and ONLY one meaning.
Like the word Chatter I used earlier, nations around the world refer to conversations between insurgents as 'chatter' whilst monitoring their comms systems, and there are many other examples that crop up on these boards.
What is it with single definition concepts where context is discarded and the most offensive use of the term only is ever considered?
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"Guys" is really NOT a gender neutral term... It's very often used that way, largely because "male" is the "default". But you would never call an individual woman a "guy", for example. Nor would you refer to a mixed-gender group as "Hey, girls!"
Now, "chatter" I didn't really understand, but "guys" is very much a sore point for many feminists.
Also by going on with the "words have different meanings!" strain you come dangerously close to "It's okay to call something 'gay' because it means 'bad' not 'homosexual'!"
Words gain meaning only because of their social contexts. "Guys" are the default, so calling everyone "guys" is "acceptable". Likewise, "gay" is "bad", so calling something "gay" is a synonym for calling something "bad".
Ultimately, by using more gender neutral terms like "everyone" "people" "y'all" etc, you ARE being more inclusive, and that's a Very Good Thing. I'm not perfect with the "guys" thing, not at all, but I do try and avoid it in mixed-gender groups when I can.