Min-maxing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There isn't! Like all things it's relative. I would guess, though, that (to avoid danger of stirring up the optimize vs role-play argument/fallacy/debate/whatever) a Power Gamer is more a case of attitude to play than anything else.
A power gamer plays primarily to make his character THE most bad-ass powerful they can be, more powerful than the rest of the party and certainly more powerful than anything the DM can throw at them. Role-play be dammned, this guy (or girl) just wants everyone else to be in awe of them.
Note that Power Gaming and optimization are NOT the same thing. A power gamer can be a terrible optimizer, as well as a terrible role-player. The point here is, the power gamer's main motivation is power beyond everyone else's, not role-play, while an optimizer is often interested in role-play and isn't bothered if other players have PCs as good as his own.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some people are just born optimizers.
When I was a kid and somebody asked me what animal I would like to be,I said a black Panther with wings and claws made of diamond.
Why?
Because its clearly better than a regular black Panther. THATS WHY!!!
And I pity you for not seeing it....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There isn't! Like all things it's relative. I would guess, though, that (to avoid danger of stirring up the optimize vs role-play argument/fallacy/debate/whatever) a Power Gamer is more a case of attitude to play than anything else.
A power gamer plays primarily to make his character THE most bad-ass powerful they can be, more powerful than the rest of the party and certainly more powerful than anything the DM can throw at them. Role-play be dammned, this guy (or girl) just wants everyone else to be in awe of them.
Note that Power Gaming and optimization are NOT the same thing. A power gamer can be a terrible optimizer, as well as a terrible role-player. The point here is, the power gamer's main motivation is power beyond everyone else's, not role-play, while an optimizer is often interested in role-play and isn't bothered if other players have PCs as good as his own.
+1. It's all about the attitude.
Power Gamers are the type of players that get angry at the GM because they're character almost drops in a fight. Power Gamers are the ones that make comments like "that's a stupid idea" when other players try and do things IG that don't directly benefit their character. Power Gamers are the ones that brag to the table about how wicked powerful their character is, how the other players aren't doing it right, and if you think there's anything wrong with their behaviour, well then you're unmistakeablely the jerk, not them.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Its true. There are a lot of different flavors of powergamer. I'm probably missing one but here's the one's i've seen most commonly so far.
- Purist optimizer: Isn't at all concerned in what's going on 'power wise' on the gms side of the screen. Considers the meta of optimization to be the height of the craft of being a gamer. Feels like its the players responsibility to do their level best to make the best build possible or he's letting the party down. Doesnt believe in the tier system because his monk could easily beat down a synthesist summoner in less time than it takes to tie your shoes. Should get your cr's in the right neighborhood and let it role.
- Scaredy cat/defensive player: Seen one too many killer gms. Thinks combat is too dangerous so foolishly jack themselves as much as possible without realizing those techniques are futile against the arbitrary CR jacking capabilities of a GM. Most likely wishes combat were easier. Should bring CR back down to more reasonable levels.
- Barbarian player/g(l)ory hound: Fully realizes the arbitrary CR jacking capabilities of the GM and wants to have a clash of the titans game. Most likely enjoys the metagame of 'being able to survive no matter what you throw at him even knowing you have limitless options' more than the game itself. Making your non combat part of the game more interesting may cure this player's bloodlust or just as likely bore this player to tears... or run with it and just pound his character from every angle all the time and watch his manic giddy smile as the next foe crests the hill.
- Decimator/sociopath: Takes the barbarian player's glee in laying waste in your world, but at the same time wishes it didn't rise to the occasion. Doesnt give a hoot about story so you can put that on the back burner. This player kills spiders with a lighter and a can of hairspray because swatting it just wouldnt do. Wishes he could hear the spider scream and probably lets out a little mock scream on the spiders behalf during the torching because not having a scream 'just doesnt feel right'... Never let CR get above the pc's own level and just send in the hordes. Try your best to find new and imaginative ways of describing the unmitigated gore the pc leaves in his wake or hope he gets bored and leaves.
Although the players interest in the story element is a completely separate spectrum, it can be helpful in diagnosing what kind of powergame you have.
I min-max. Or optimize. Call it whatever you want. But I do it because I know my books in and out, I know that a summoner multiclassing with druid will most likely be a terrible idea both for eidolon, spells and wildshaping, not to mention stats.
Does it make me a bad guy for wanting my rp character build efficiently? Once he's made, it's all about rp, the character and the world, most optimizers/min-maxers don't look for a one-shot combo or an unkillable character, but it's nice when there's synergy between your class, feats, stats and items.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The whole WOW factor. It's called Role-playing, not lets see how powerful I can get no matter what. With the MMO's that's all it's about and its bleeding over into the core games.
Powergaming & min-maxing is going to vary greatly by group. In large doses, min-maxing can cause the DM to have to do a lot of extra work to make the encounters seem relevent, unless he just decides to let the party murderhobo everything. But the real problems start occurring when the amount of min-maxing varies within a specific group. You end up with certain players being the court jesters and others the super heroes.
When I play, I tend to be closest to the "purist optimizer", but since I also DM regularly, I try to tailor the amount of optimizing I do to the group. I obviously still want to stay near the top of the pack in terms of accomplishing whatever my goal is in combat, but I try to NOT eclipse other players.
My melee focused Dragon Disciple deals the most damage in our group probably 65% of the encounters - unless the mooks are standing around in fireball formation, etc. I've also made it my secondary goal to be the one who can take hits like none other. Currently I'm about 35% maximum hit points higher than anyone else in our party, but my armor class is right in line with everyone else. That way, the DM doesn't feel like he needs to compensate his attack rolls just to hit me. And hit me he does, but I take it like a champ and just keep holding the front lines - usually trying to occupy what I perceive to be the biggest threat to let my party run amok on the rest of the encounter.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
Optimizing is what I do to make the most viable character to suit my concept.
Power gaming is when you do the same thing but do it better than me.
to me, power gaming is where you play the game and max out your character and do all this cool stuff without actually playing the game
so you come up with the most amazing generalized optimized build, but it isnt specifically tailored to any specific campaign, so you dont get any of the flavor of having the characters background story, or get to struggle to win any epic battles or obtain any treasure the old fashioned way
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Power Gamers are the type of players that get angry at the GM because they're character almost drops in a fight.
Not a Powergamer. A powergamer doesn't drop from a fight; this is why they powergame.
Power Gamers are the ones that make comments like "that's a stupid idea" when other players try and do things IG that don't directly benefit their character.
No that would be a roleplayer: role playing a real person. Real people don't do stuff on purpose to weaken themselves.
There isn't! Like all things it's relative. I would guess, though, that (to avoid danger of stirring up the optimize vs role-play argument/fallacy/debate/whatever) a Power Gamer is more a case of attitude to play than anything else.
A power gamer plays primarily to make his character THE most bad-ass powerful they can be, more powerful than the rest of the party and certainly more powerful than anything the DM can throw at them. Role-play be dammned, this guy (or girl) just wants everyone else to be in awe of them.
Note that Power Gaming and optimization are NOT the same thing. A power gamer can be a terrible optimizer, as well as a terrible role-player. The point here is, the power gamer's main motivation is power beyond everyone else's, not role-play, while an optimizer is often interested in role-play and isn't bothered if other players have PCs as good as his own.
+1. It's all about the attitude.
Power Gamers are the type of players that get angry at the GM because they're character almost drops in a fight. Power Gamers are the ones that make comments like "that's a stupid idea" when other players try and do things IG that don't directly benefit their character. Power Gamers are the ones that brag to the table about how wicked powerful their character is, how the other players aren't doing it right, and if you think there's anything wrong with their behaviour, well then you're unmistakeablely the jerk, not them.
+2
one thing i find with power gamers is that they tend to be all bout using the rules to try to brake the game. by conveniently forgetting them when it helps them, or if a rule come up that they don't like they get mad to the point they even demand to make a new character and the sad part about these people is that they tend to be good people out of game but in game they create a lot of problems
If your level of cheese/optimization annoys the players in your group?
that was what i was saying it in a weird way my bad
by conveniently forgetting them when it help them was not a clear statement
should have been conveniently forgetting them when it help them to do so
|
There are pre-set rules for ANY game. The developers preset a series of rules to try and balance the game. Anyone running the game has the final rule what goes and what works and what does not. Even in PFS they adjust the rules like removing things. A power gamer uses the rules at hand to make the most powerful character. The rest of the BS between optimizer and power gamer are garbage they mean the same thing. Some people are confusing a cry baby with the other.
|
I'd say a powergamer is someone who optimizes his character and playing style. A bad powergamer is one who does it without any RP; just plain bland optimization.
It's a subtle difference. Consider on the one hand the wizard who just selects a build around using Calcific Touch to petrify monsters, and optimizes it. Meh. On the other hand, an Earth wizard who has all kinds of flavor built around how the earth will get back at baddies. Okay, that's nicer than the first one. Both can be powergamed, but the second one is nicer company.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The whole WOW factor. It's called Role-playing, not lets see how powerful I can get no matter what. With the MMO's that's all it's about and its bleeding over into the core games.
+1 ...... the WOW factor.
Also,
-They complain some classes just aren't 'powerful' enough.
-They make call some characters 'Tanks'.
-They're always trying to 'fix' the rogue because he isn't as effective in combat.
-They use cover words like 'optimize'.
-They pick obscure alternative classes that have nothing to do with the campaign because it further 'optimizes' them.
-The base classes they play always have 2 or 3 alt-class names listed before it.
-They play characters with class names like "Vivisectionist alchemist".
Power Gamers are the type of players that get angry at the GM because they're character almost drops in a fight.
Not a Powergamer. A powergamer doesn't drop from a fight; this is why they powergame.
Power Gamers are the ones that make comments like "that's a stupid idea" when other players try and do things IG that don't directly benefit their character.
No that would be a roleplayer: role playing a real person. Real people don't do stuff on purpose to weaken themselves.
I feel like you're trying to pick a fight with these remarks.
However, I will clarify:A powergamer is someone who BELIEVES they've made such a good build, that if they drop in a game, it's only because the GM made the encounter too hard. This is drawn directly from my experience as a player at a table who watched a "powergamer" accuse this of the GM.
Second point. A power gamer complains OOG to a player because the player has done something IG that didn't benefit the power gamer's character in game.
To repeat what another poster has said: no one is arguing that when a player attempts to mechanically design an optimized character that they are "bad", or even a "powergamer".
This is why my point was that power gaming is all about attitude.
Power gaming happens when the GM lets it. It usually gets by when THAT/THOSE player(s) knows that the GM is new to the rules. Once that happens these people know that they can let anything slip buy.
What was it I read in a thread a few months ago? It was an Android Wizard. Then recently, someone thought up a Gunslinger with two doublebarrel pistols. I'm not sure if he ever played it. He might have wondered if it was legal.
But people come up with something and try to slide it past their GM. If he is good or sharp he will read and stop that player from trying to pull a fast one.
We have had NON-D&D games where most of the players were power gamers. The task at hand was for the players to come to the table with two characters. The GM then set up a fight where there were two teams fighting each other and they comprised the characters from these players. Everyone was shocked that night as they had all created power gamed characters.
All is not lost because not everyone creates them. It's just a matter of what to do when the player walks in the door with his monster character...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Power gaming is the process of focusing on the optimal mechanical combination of classes, abilities, items, feats, races, traits and other elements of the game.
If you build a spellcaster with a combination of traits, feats and items such that you can cast unlimited spells which entangle and slow virtually any target, you're almost certainly a power gamer.
If you describe your character to a fellow player and their eyes glaze over and they say "what the heck? how do you get a 3/4 BAB class to out damage a full BAB class?" you're probably a power gamer.
If you chose your feats, traits and items based on an extensive Excel spreadsheet where you plugged in a dozen or more combinations to see what had the best damage per round, you're probably a power gamer.
If your character is the hardest character in your party to hit, does the most damage and has the highest saves, you're definitely a power gamer.
In the end power gaming is all about exploiting unintentional synergies between classes, races, feats, items, traits and abilities to create characters that exceed the expectations of the game designers for characters of that level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It honestly depends.
I power game/minmax/etc so I'm not dead weight, can contribute to combat, and whatever... If I knew how to role play better, I would (I do some, I'm no pro.)
There's actually quite a bit of us that do that here, and it's not because of any "wow factor," it's because there's some joy in having a shocking grasp do crazy amounts of damage, making enemies trip up on themselves, or just crazy builds that make everyone go "what?" but work. In fact, from my knowledge, WoW is just rush to max level and grind for ultimate equipment... That isn't easily done in a RPG... AT ALL with a good GM.
If anything, optimizing lets us break through combat to get to RP time. Also, the only person I know that actually has side comments made about him "power gaming" is one guy who thinks it's ok to have his animal companion eat a zombie and die because "I'll get one tomorrow." A lot of the "power gamers" I know don't even do that.
---
Of course, on the 7 charisma dump stuff, I really don't like the diplomacy/intimidate/bluff as it is anyways. It's not the "why do I need charisma? It does nothing for combat," it's the perfectly good requests get ruined by a bad roll from someone that would know how to communicate. In real life, you generally don't have reasonable normal chat, and then have someone be upset/mad even though you did nothing to make them upset, and their only reason to be upset is because you just did something wrong.
Odd. I find roleplayers ignore rules when it suits their needs far more than powergamers. Powergamers ignore roleplay alot of the time almost to a fault and work entirely within the mechanics of the system. roleplayers tend to roleplay their way through situations where rulewise they wouldn't have the capability to do so.+2
one thing i find with power gamers is that they tend to be all bout using the rules to try to brake the game. by conveniently forgetting them when it helps them, or if a rule come up that they don't like they get mad to the point they even demand to make a new character and the sad part about these people is that they tend to be good people out of game but in game they create a lot of problems
You aren't talking Power Gamers, you are talking Optimizers.
The problem is, the term means different things to different people.
To some, it simply means someone that is focused on building mechanically powerful characters (not necessarily to the exclusion of anything else).
To others, it describes an attitude whose defining features are a lack of consideration for other players, and a focus on mechanically powerful characters (usually to the exclusion of other stuff, like building a character with depth, enjoying roleplaying, and being able to step out of the limelight).
These are only two possible meanings of the word.
Many arguments on these boards are the result of people using the word "powergamer" but meaning different things.
|
Real people don't do stuff on purpose to weaken themselves.
They don't do it on purpose. They do it all the time nonetheless (Cause nobody is perfect, right?). And even if told that they're making a mistake, they chose not to believe it (I guess all parents know what I'm talking about).
So roleplaying a real person means roleplaying a character who will sometimes make a non-optimal decision. That may even happen if the player behind the character knows that it is not an optimal decision.
I don't know if Power Gamers necessarily call this "a stupid idea" when confronted with this style of roleplaying. I know that jerks do.
Ok all just a question what do you think makes someone a power gamer ?Someone whose playstyle I don't like.
I think this is a type of Powergamer attitude. What makes your playing style better than anyone else's?
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think this is a type of Powergamer attitude. What makes your playing style better than anyone else's?
Nothing. 'Powergamer' and 'munchkin' are just labels people apply to players who have a playstyle the speaker doesn't like. Calling a player a powergamer is just a way of alienating and dehumanizing them, which makes it easier to turn the group against them.
Tri, while "powergamer" and "munchkin" very much ARE labels that people might use to dehumanize a player and turn the group against them, they aren't JUST labels used that way.
The behaviors being described as powergaming are real behaviors that truly do negatively impact many players' enjoyment of the game.
I am very careful when I build my characters to avoid the most common and obvious overpowered options for them. I have played with players who disrupt the game by constantly seeking to overshadow the rest of the group, and who don't enjoy the game unless they are.
The behaviors that people are complaining about exist. They are disruptive. They are recognizable. They are not merely labels used to exclude or target other people.
Well, yes and no. While it might be difficult to define the term with universally acknowledged precision, it has been my experience that recognizing the behavior in action is really not that difficult.
I usually just call those players jerks.
Of course, since the group usually is already against them for their jerkish behavior, the dehumanization has already occurred. :)
Well, if I were to draw a Venn diagram I would have a circle for all the "jerks" and a circle for all the "powergamers". While the powergamer circle might well be mostly in union with the "jerk" circle, the "jerk" circle will be vastly larger and the powergamer circle will have some outside the union with jerks.
I played with a powergamer who was a really nice guy and an excellent role player. But he just wasn't happy unless his character was the obvious most awesome character in the party and he would make every possible effort to gain any conceivable advantage, scouring every book and historical reference he could to ensure that his character was able to do things that gave him an advantage in any conceivable situation.
I don't put him in the "jerk" category, but his gaming behavior did annoy and reduce the enjoyment of the rest of the group.
By the same token, the 'jerk player' circle does not always overlap with the 'jerk person' circle.
Interesting point Tri... hadn't thought about it that way before.
By the same token, the 'jerk player' circle does not always overlap with the 'jerk person' circle.
This is a great observation. I agree with it.
Power Gamer: Everyone at my table that has accepted that we've played the D20 system for too long because we can't find another system that we all agree on.
Munchkin: Someone that has unwittingly become a walking wiki and knows more about the system then me. And then makes a Gnome Syn-Summoner/Rogue gestalt.
Roleplayer: Every single one of my players that stays at in my group.