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Just a quick question. Is it really common practice to always use power attack no matter what?
I noticed something in a couple of PbP games and I've seen it at PFS events. PFS is the only place where I see a large number of players. Granted it is usually low level characters.
I've been seeing a significant number of PC's using power attack nearly every single time. Which would be fine except they almost always miss.
I'm not talking about the pure barb, with the 57+ strength, godlike weapon focus, and a +5 weapon so that he can't miss unless he rolls a 1.
I'm talking about the cleric, inquisitor, monk, druid, etc... The 3/4 BaB classes that needs to keep other abilities high so their strength is not maxed.
Just last weekend I was watching another table while our table was taking a snack break. I watched a THF battle cleric roll at least 8 or so attack rolls and only hit once. He was muttering the whole time because he was only missing by 1 or 2 points on several of them. The person next to him said, "Well stop using power attack."
He said, "Everyone knows it's been proved that in the long run you do more damage with power attack."
I came real close to saying, "Everyone knows you have proved you do more damage as a wizard with ray of frost." The wizard on the other side of the table almost never missed. I'm not sure if he was actually doing more damage or not, but it was at least close.
If you know it is easy to hit (you surprised a lumbering ox) or you have really high to hit mods (max str barb), then yeah it is an excellent add to your damage. But to keep on when you keep missing. I just don't get it.
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Well, 60% of the time I use it all the time.
The other 40% of the time is when I am playing characters who won't hit so easily.
sounds like a regional thing.
Although in my experience, I've generally rolled low enough even not power attacking, I still miss, or I hit so well the penalty wouldn't matter. I don't think I've ever rolled anything around 8-12...*
I also have an apparent aura of 4's being rolled... Or I just pay too much attention.
*I rolled really bad that encounter, and my character died.
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Just a quick question. Is it really common practice to always use power attack no matter what?
I use power attack only when I have a low chance of missing.
My main, a magus, did not bother with power attack. With a 3/4 BAB I saw minimal advantage in taking it. I am playing another magus that has power attack, but only uses it vs low AC opponents.
In the few instances that I've had a character with power attack, I consider the use of power attack not only every encounter, but every round.
I'd have to redo the math but in general there is a break-even point where lower ACs you benefit and higher ACs you don't. I will try to figure out the enemy AC and if it is below that point, I use it, if it is above that point, I don't. I factor in temporary buffs.
On rare occasions I'll gamble and go for it even when the odds are against it. But when I do and miss when I would have hit, I feel like a dang fool.
Power attack only pays for itself if you have a two-handed weapon, or if you have a really low AC to target relative to your attack bonus. For one-handed weapon fighters, I generally find you often lose as much as you gain on full round attacks, so I rarely bother with it.
My experience with power attack is that for many players it's almost a trap feat. I've seen builds with crappy attack bonuses where the player has power attack because it's "required" even though they miss more often than they hit.
When I use power attack it's when I've fully committed to a damage-dealing powerhouse. I've optimized attack bonuses and damage bonuses to the point that I might even be accused of power gaming. Because if you don't then you run a very real risk of investing a feat that ends up with you barely breaking even.
And again I will stress that unless you really know what you are doing, power attack works best when you need it the least, and works least when you need it the most. I don't need a feat that makes it easier for me to beat down mid-range encounters and then leaves me flat when I'm going against the boss.
I gave my bard power attack and he usually does well with it. Of course, I mostly power attack when I have my performance up, as it mitigates the penalty.
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I've noticed way too many people who take Power Attack at level 1. I don't care if you are a barbarian with a two handed weapon - you're going to miss a lot at level 1, so it's not worth it. Wait until level 3 or 5 when you're hitting more consistently, unless you're taking Furious Focus at the same time.
There is a band where power attack is not advantageous. The size of the target AC band will vary with certain factors. Generally you need a DPR calculator to be precise on this, but it's a reasonable assumption that if you're missing constantly, don't use it (unless you need a 20 to hit, in which case it's no loss).
I pretty much always use power attack on my full BAB characters. Then again, if I'm not playing a full BAB character, I'm playing an arcane spellcaster where I wouldn't imagine taking it anyway.
If you have done a decent job keeping your to hit bonus up to spec (on a full BAB character), power attack should pretty much always be used unless it is a custom foe with extremely high AC.
Honestly I've not run the numbers for the 3/4 BAB classes much, so I'm not really able to comment on what cost/benefit power attack might yield. I would suspect not much given that few of them really have good mechanisms to boost their to hit.
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I always use it on the first attack unless I have reason to believe the enemy has high AC. If I start missing with middling rolls, then I turn it off until we figure out what the target AC actually is. If I need around a natural 15 or higher to hit without PA, I will usually not turn it back on again.
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I start out using it, then if I'm having trouble hitting I stop.
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I'd plug their characters into a DPR formula and show them the math. You'll either prove to them what AC is worth power attacking against, or prove to yourself that they're hopeless.
Simply put: if you do low damage with a decent chance of hitting, use it. If you do high damage with a poor chance of hitting, don't bother. And it's better for TWF.
The PC IMC who really needs it is the halfling rogue with 9 Strength. He attacks at +7 for 1d3. Turning that into +6 for 1d3+2 is a no-brainer. But he'd need 13 Strength so doesn't qualify anyway.
In the last fight, the sword-&-board Fighter 2 hemmed and hawed about whether to use PA on an enraged wolverine. He decided not to. Good call, as he only just hit it, taking it to -1. Initially I forgot about the wolverine's rage affecting its AC so ruled a miss, and then it attacked the fighter for 26 damage.
After so many years of playing I just know, when power attack decreases DPR. When I notice that the enemie AC breaks the limit of power attack being worth it, I stop power attacking. I have to admit that this is probably the worst metagaming I do and even though I usually do not like metagaming I just cant stop it in that case:(
We have a ''battle'' cleric in our group who sticked with the ''power attack always activated'' mentality until we made him realise that using power attack against opponents that you automatically one-shot without power attack (ex: dire rats) was not very effective.
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If you use a two-hander and/or are full BAB keeping power attack going in 95% of situations is a no-brainer. In the rare case where you're having trouble hitting, then sure it's probably a good idea to shut it off.
3/4 BAB or lower with a one-hander? Good idea against easy targets, bad against hard targets. Whether you default to "on" or "off" would depend on the character.
At my table everyone with PA (or equivalent) just leaves it on all the time for simplicity's sake.
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We have a ''battle'' cleric in our group who sticked with the ''power attack always activated'' mentality until we made him realise that using power attack against opponents that you automatically one-shot without power attack (ex: dire rats) was not very effective.
In the games I've played this would be a *very* rare exception. Except maybe at very low level, I suppose.
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The only character I have ever seriously used power attack with is my lvl 5 paladin who uses a 2-handed sword. The character sheet has a power attack line and a power attack w/smite line. But the only reason I use it with her is that's the personality of the character.
I occasionally used it with my dwarf fighter who got to lvl 19, but I had to struggle to remember I even had that feat available.
I've never used it on a class that didn't have full BAB.
I thought it sounded like they read to many of those THF threads and too the 'must have power attack' as gospel. And if you got it, you have to use it. Wierd.
With a two-handed weapon it's almost always worth it, especially if you have Furious Focus. The gain in +2 damage on average is worth -1 to hit without changing DPR. With a two-handed weapon, it's +3 for -1, so unless you are fighting something with a very high AC it's hard for it not to be worth it. With Furious Focus it becomes a no-brainer as your first attack has no penalty at all.
I've only used Power Attack on my THF damage machine. At 4th level with Furious Focus, yeah, I use it every turn. When I hit 6th level, that will probably change. I can't think of another of my character builds that has Power Attack, although I have considered getting it as Ki power on a Quingong (sp?) monk.
One of the reasons PA is "required" is that there is a whole tree of maneuver feats that need it. But that doesn't mean you have to use it every turn.
We have a ''battle'' cleric in our group who sticked with the ''power attack always activated'' mentality until we made him realise that using power attack against opponents that you automatically one-shot without power attack (ex: dire rats) was not very effective.In the games I've played this would be a *very* rare exception. Except maybe at very low level, I suppose.
We are playing in an AP, so yeah, we started at level 1. Now that we are level 5 and that we fight tougher opponents, the cleric is pretty much using Power Attack every rounds. I'm considering taking Power Attack at level 7 for my Alchemist so that my melee damage output remains significant when I'm out of Strength boosting extracts or mutagens.
In some cases the best argument for PA is to follow a specific feat tree, not so much PA itself.
I only bother with Power Attack if I have full BAB and can get a 3:1 out of it. Otherwise I'd rather just have my extra hit chance, so I don't bother taking it.
After so many years of playing I just know, when power attack decreases DPR. When I notice that the enemie AC breaks the limit of power attack being worth it, I stop power attacking. I have to admit that this is probably the worst metagaming I do and even though I usually do not like metagaming I just cant stop it in that case:(Nah, that's not metagaming. Having trouble hitting the enemy? Make more careful swings (don't use power attack). Hitting easily? Put a little more power into it.
What you say isnt metagaming, but calculating whether PA increases DPR vs an enemie is.
I really do think the 2/4 BaB thing is seriously exaggerated. First a great many of these 3/4 BaB classes have their to hit boosted in other ways. Judgements, buff spells, inspire, and so on.
Even when its not 1 to hit is not significant. At higher lvls it grows yes but PA also scales slower for the lower BaB.
A medium BAB character with 1+1/6 his level in attack bonus beyond what the game expects him to have from WBL will hit as much power attacking as a non-smiting paladin or ranger not fighting his FE. It's been established that non-smiting paladins and rangers not fighting their favored enemy should power attack against "typical" opponents, so medium+ BAB classes should as well.
Why? How established? On average, +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage, so employing Power Attack on average with a one-handed weapon will yield no net advantage. If you are TWFing, it's a net disadvantage as you lose more than you gain with the off-hand weapon. Of course that is on average, against low AC targets there is a gain in DPR, against a high AC opponent there is a loss in DPR. The only argument for using Power Attack is bashing through DR, when it makes a serious difference.
Having Power Attack gives you options, and it gives you access to other feats, but always using it is as foolish as never using it - unless you have a two-handed weapon.
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The ones I have seen were using two handed weapons. But again, they were not hitting. So it was not helping them at all. It was only hurting them.
Yes if they were higher level and had a bunch of buffs running or were trying to smash through DR it makes sense. If they were hitting, it makes sense.
My observation was that I think people are reading some of the above statements as absolutes. "I have a two handed weapon I must use power attack." If you are not hitting a penalty to hit does not seem to be helping you.
I can't remember the last time I used Power Attack, but it was early in 3.0.
The ones I have seen were using two handed weapons. But again, they were not hitting. So it was not helping them at all. It was only hurting them.
Yes if they were higher level and had a bunch of buffs running or were trying to smash through DR it makes sense. If they were hitting, it makes sense.
My observation was that I think people are reading some of the above statements as absolutes. "I have a two handed weapon I must use power attack." If you are not hitting a penalty to hit does not seem to be helping you.
On nights when the dice are against you, you have to adjust your strategy.
Sure, statistics always work in the long run, but your character has to survive in the short run.
Doesn't it also depend on whether you're getting a full attack or just a single? Your first attack may be hitting fine even with the penalty, but missing iterative attacks still costs you damage.
Indeed. If you have iterative attacks, the latter attacks will lose out proportionately worse, but a single attack doesn't have this problem, so you are more likely to try Power Attack on a charge where you get one strike and an advantage to hit.
... Never underestimate the powers of stupid.
Well, yes there is always that. {sigh}
My Fighter/Monk/Alchemist uses Power Attack when his mutagen is up. Even then, not the entire time, but certainly a majority of the time.
I just recently started using it for the first time on my lvl 3 Barbarian. There wasn't a point where I was like, "Crap, I missed by 1, if only I hadn't used Power Attack D:"
I pretty much used it every time unless I forgot.
Power attack is a feat that has a lot of variables influencing it's utility. I usually DPS spreadsheet the character to see if PA is really worth the feat. Sometimes it is and sometimes it's not. If it isn't worth it I don't take it as a feat and will probably grab weapon focus instead. If it is worth it, I use it almost all the time.
Well, if I have full-BAB and/or other means of raising my to-hit, I use it most of the time.
Unless the enemy has a particullary high AC, there's no reason not to.
Power attack is a feat that has a lot of variables influencing it's utility. I usually DPS spreadsheet the character to see if PA is really worth the feat. Sometimes it is and sometimes it's not. If it isn't worth it I don't take it as a feat and will probably grab weapon focus instead. If it is worth it, I use it almost all the time.
Do you know where I could find such a spreadsheet? I've been wanting to go over the numbers myself for one of my chars, and a spreadsheet that's pre-built could save me a ton of time.