[Jehova's Arena, Test] Fight the Thirteenth, Aros vs. Blarnaz

[Warlords of Choon]

I see being blind as having to constantly face invisible opponents. Honestly, the surface, the shock of suddenly going blind, and any noise the croud is making would all play a factor in the real world, but this is fantasy. I'd make a call then go to the rules section and let some people who know more rule theory than I hash it out. Maybe +10 as a good compromise?

[Warlords of Choon]

Full disclosure: I really want the +20 as its Blarnaz's best chance for survival. He's kinda on the ropes here. :)

[Aros Vrolinai]

Yeah, I'm really not sure how that should play out. It does seem odd that, for all intents and purposes, the opponent is essentially invisible, which would be +20, but blinded just applies a -4 on perception checks (though admittedly an autofail if they are solely sight-based).
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Then again actually, I suppose if someone realizes they are blind (pretty obvious), they'll be relying much more on their other senses to locate opponents, doing their best to ignore the lack of sight they would usually rely on (so they have a -4, since it's not the norm for them). If an opponent is invisible though, people still have their sight and could assume it is providing accurate feedback as normal (technically true, actually) so they wouldn't be relying on their other senses as heavily, since they still have the one they use most (so the opponent gets +20 against them, because now the invisible person is the unusual occurrence, while everything seems normal to the one they're hiding from).
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Maybe that's the idea behind it? I really don't have a clue. Regardless, I'm fine with whatever interpretation we get.

[Warlords of Choon]

That actually makes a lot of sence. Add a 50% miss chance (I think) and its pretty reasonable

[Aros Vrolinai]

Now this comes up with a bit of a weird scenario though. If you were invisible, the difference between our stealth/perception would be 20. If, afterwards, I became blinded, (or in reverse order) the difference also gets the 4. I don't actually see anything under invisibility that says being blinded makes someone immune to the effects of invisibility, so that could end up with a 24 instead, despite the fact that I'm completely oblivious to you being invisible or not.
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Man, this is confusing now :/
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Some discussion on it here. Certainly odd, might need some adjudication to figure something out, which is a little unfortunate since I think we want this to stick to the rules as close as possible.

[Warlords of Choon]

And still no consensus. I say make it a "listen" check and give a bonus to the 'invisible' character based on the noiseieness of the terrain. Loose gravel would be not much bonus. Hard rock would give a more significant bonus as steps make less noise.
Then apply a miss chance due to total concealment. That should take care of it.

[The Arbiter]

Alright, as much as I dislike the idea of houseruling over the official stance on stuff, I think this is a case where I need to. The consolidation of spot and listen into a single skill (that also includes stuff like smelling opponents, or feeling air currents, I assume), leads to some very nonsensical stuff with blindness and the stealth/perception rules, such as an invisible character being significantly better at hiding from a blind guy. To make this all work, I'm ruling that the +20/+40 on stealth checks only applies to vision-based perception checks (which I sorta assume was the intended rule), and that during all perception checks it should be clearly announced which senses are being used. If multiple senses are used, any penalties or bonuses to either will be applied to the result.

This means that if an invisible guy is hiding from a blind person, the +20 will have no effect, as a blind character automatically fails sighted perception checks (a blind person cannot see at all, whereas an invisible character can still be detected by sight as a patch of weird air, a lack of dust, etc.). Does anyone have ideas on how to make this better? As of now, by choosing not to use sight while attempting to detect/pinpoint an invisible opponent, the check simply becomes perception vs. stealth.

[Warlords of Choon]

Sounds good to me. Does that mean Aros almost certainly knows Bleeding Blarnaz's square? (I'm assuming yes. ) If so, is there a miss chance?
Basically, it all boils down to does he fire into the right square, and if he does, does the attack hit?

[Aros Vrolinai]

Well, I did my attack rolls earlier, including miss chance for total concealment, and one would have hit I think. The question now is whether I was able to target the right square. I'm not sure if my perception was able to locate you or not, since I don't know what your stealth was.
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@ Arbiter: And that sounds like a reasonable interpretation on this. Do you plan on writing that down in the rules in case it comes up again? Might be worth doing so. And does this mean Aros basically has the -4 on his perception, or more since he's not normally blind?
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Anyway, you can just specify whether the attack hit or not. After that, I think my turn is pretty much over.

[Warlords of Choon]

It all comes down to this. If one of your attacks hits I'm pretty much done for.

[The Arbiter]

Alright, this needs to be settled several days ago, so for now I'm ruling that any perception check in which you are denied sight takes a -4 penalty. The +20 to stealth from invisibility only applies on perception checks involving sight (trying to see the invisible person, as opposed here), and a blind character straight up cannot use sighted perception. This all means that Aros's second wild shot into A8 hits Blarnaz for 19 damage.

[Warlords of Choon]

Luck is a fickle friend.
Aros's second shot just happens to catch Blarnaz in the chest, ending his chances to win by finally forcing him to collapse under the weight of his own wounds. He is unconscious, but alive.

GM:

-12 HP

[Aros Vrolinai]

I guess that means time for a finisher?

Hearing a thud on the ground, Aros raises one eyebrow quizzically, though his eyes remain closed. "Well, did that find its mark?" he calls out, then waits a moment, barely breathing as he listens.

After a few seconds with no sound, he spins the gun on his finger, taking a more relaxed stance, and reloads it, slowly stepping forward. He carefully moves around, feeling the area one step at a time, until he reaches Blarnaz's body.

"Well, there you are," he says. He plants one foot on the man's chest, to help establish what's where. "Normally, I'd be inclined to make sure this shot goes through quite carefully, but, uh, as you might guess," he taps the pistol to his forehead briefly, "I'm havin' a bit a trouble seein' all that well right now, so this'll have to do."

With that, he spins the gun, aiming it straight up, arm extended, then brings it down in an arc to point directly at Blarnaz's chest. "It's been fun... but see ya next time." The shot rings out across the arena, before he steps back. Unless I need to roll miss chance? :P

Slowly making his way back toward the center of the arena with his poor sight, he stops and 'looks' around at the crowd.

"Welp, sad to say, I can't see all your shinin' faces right now, but I do hope ya'll have enjoyed the show," he says with a dramatic bow. "Now, if you don't mind, I suppose I'll be headin' back to see if I can't get a fix for this here seein' problem." He taps his forehead again, with a finger this time. "Stay frosty, folks."

That done, he slowly and carefully makes his way back towards the door he entered the arena from.

Man, Aros is a bit of a showboater, huh?

[The Arbiter]

Hee hee. I'm not sure if you can actually coup de grace while blind, but the effect is the same. Aros wins!

[Aros Vrolinai]

Well, I suppose I could have wailed on him repeatedly with unarmed strikes until he died, but it seems a little less dignified of a way to go :P