I want to use Symbol of Mirroring and I wanted to double check it works.
Once triggered does it effect every creature that comes within 60ft of it, allies and enemies alike? Thus making a banner of it not so useful (unless the entire party has True Seeing).
If you had a permanent one on a book page could the party activate it, pop it in a bag of holding, kick down the door and benefit from it for several rounds?
How long would they have to wait until they could use it again?
Bump.
Once triggered does it effect every creature that comes within 60ft of it, allies and enemies alike?
Yes.
Thus making a banner of it not so useful (unless the entire party has True Seeing).
Or you just want to create utter chaos and confusion.
If you had a permanent one on a book page could the party activate it, pop it in a bag of holding, kick down the door and benefit from it for several rounds?
That should work.
How long would they have to wait until they could use it again?
A loooong time... it's a one-shot spell.
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Symbol of mirroring works like Symbol of death.
When you prepare it you can choose who will not be affected by it; we can then safely assume, I believe, that you can prepare a Symbol of Mirroring that works only for your companions if you want to use it defensively (you just attune everyone except your party members). Note that doing this changes the casting time - refer to symbol of death's description.
Then you could cast it on a piece of paper, make it permanent for 5000gp, and choose to activate it whenever you read it loud. The effect would last for 10 minutes per levels, and affect, as you would have precised while casting it, only your party members within 60ft.
And then all you companions are protected with a (kind of) mirror image spell that recovers every turns.And if you make it permanent, the symbol stays on your page and you can activate it again and again.
Am I missing something, or is this really, really strong?
No, you've pretty much understood it completely.
All of the symbol spells are really, really powerful they are just very expensive to get full use of that power.Welcome to high level play.
Symbol of mirroring works like Symbol of death.
When you prepare it you can choose who will not be affected by it; we can then safely assume, I believe, that you can prepare a Symbol of Mirroring that works only for your companions if you want to use it defensively (you just attune everyone except your party members). Note that doing this changes the casting time - refer to symbol of death's description.
Then you could cast it on a piece of paper, make it permanent for 5000gp, and choose to activate it whenever you read it loud. The effect would last for 10 minutes per levels, and affect, as you would have precised while casting it, only your party members within 60ft.
And then all you companions are protected with a (kind of) mirror image spell that recovers every turns.And if you make it permanent, the symbol stays on your page and you can activate it again and again.
Am I missing something, or is this really, really strong?
1) You are immune to your own symbol. No exceptions.
2) You can attune others, but that is to exclude them. If you don't want the creatures you face to be affected, you have to include them in the casting. Not easy if they are trying to kill you.What you want is to make it ONLY affect you and your friends. The spell does not work that way. The best way I have come up with is to trigger it out of sight of the enemy, then make it non-functional while fighting by placing it in an extradimensional space or dispelling the symbol. [Not sure if that would dispel the active copies.] Then let the 1 round/level extra carry you through the fight.
You need to carefully parse both the Symbol of Mirroring spell and the referenced Symbol of Death spell to figure it really works.
/cevah
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Symbol of mirroring works like Symbol of death.
When you prepare it you can choose who will not be affected by it; we can then safely assume, I believe, that you can prepare a Symbol of Mirroring that works only for your companions if you want to use it defensively (you just attune everyone except your party members). Note that doing this changes the casting time - refer to symbol of death's description.
Then you could cast it on a piece of paper, make it permanent for 5000gp, and choose to activate it whenever you read it loud. The effect would last for 10 minutes per levels, and affect, as you would have precised while casting it, only your party members within 60ft.
And then all you companions are protected with a (kind of) mirror image spell that recovers every turns.And if you make it permanent, the symbol stays on your page and you can activate it again and again.
Am I missing something, or is this really, really strong?
1) You are immune to your own symbol. No exceptions.
2) You can attune others, but that is to exclude them. If you don't want the creatures you face to be affected, you have to include them in the casting. Not easy if they are trying to kill you.What you want is to make it ONLY affect you and your friends. The spell does not work that way. The best way I have come up with is to trigger it out of sight of the enemy, then make it non-functional while fighting by placing it in an extradimensional space or dispelling the symbol. [Not sure if that would dispel the active copies.] Then let the 1 round/level extra carry you through the fight.
You need to carefully parse both the Symbol of Mirroring spell and the referenced Symbol of Death spell to figure it really works.
/cevah
You might want to re-read the spell again Cevah, you missed a paragraph.
You can also set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a symbol of death can be based on a creature's name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, HD, and hit points don't qualify.
Set the trigger equal to the party members names so that only THEY can trigger it, solves all these issues and makes it so it can only affect them.
Bit of a broken spell, strong if permanent.
However, a dispel magic could take it out and waste that 5100gp.
Ok, my two cents. Symbol of Death does not stop affecting anyone who walks inside after being triggered just because you covered it. Ergo, neither does Symbol of Mirroring. Permanency on it means it never turns off (could rule that it works like SoD too, but by the wording on the SRD, that's my interpretation).
Bag of Holding only says magic items don't work for person carrying it, so the symbol affects everyone who comes within 60ft of the symbol forever. Or for 10 minutes out of every 20 at most. How I'm reading it at any rate. No idea what use this has off-hand.
I read it incorrectly.
Attuning larger groups takes an additional 24 hours per 25 creaturesSo technically you can attune everyone except your party members, but it will take the whole eternity to cast that symbol...
And that alone ruins my first plan...!You are indeed automatically considered attuned to your own symbols, but that does'nt mean you are obliged to be attuned to your symbols. When you cast it, you just don't have to precise that you attune yourself, but logically you do it, so you could also just not do it.
Actually:
You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.
You are stuck being not mirrored.
Ok, my two cents. Symbol of Death does not stop affecting anyone who walks inside after being triggered just because you covered it. Ergo, neither does Symbol of Mirroring. Permanency on it means it never turns off (could rule that it works like SoD too, but by the wording on the SRD, that's my interpretation).
But SoD does have a HD cap. It does not affect beyond that. How this affects SoM is not stated. Nor is the effect of Permanency on the HD cap.
Bag of Holding only says magic items don't work for person carrying it, so the symbol affects everyone who comes within 60ft of the symbol forever. Or for 10 minutes out of every 20 at most. How I'm reading it at any rate. No idea what use this has off-hand.
Since the space inside a Bag of Holding is extradimensional, the symbol is no longer near anyone. That is why it works.
/cevah
@Cevah
SoD DOES have a hit point cap, but it also gives special rules if made permanent. Since SoM mimics SoD in many ways, I feel it's safe to use those rules. SoM last for 10 min when triggered, and then takes 10 min to reset afterwards. At least by RAI imo. By RAW I do believe it just lasts forever in "on" mode after being triggered. If you have a different way of reading it feel free to enlighten me.
As far as bag of holding goes, please point me to why it's no longer near anyone. Reading extradimensional spaces, and the bag of holding rules, I don't see why something with an aura wouldn't still project the aura from inside the bag. I point you specifically to the Bag of Holding rules, where it says an object can pierce the bag of holding from the inside. If an object can interact with the bag from the inside, it must still be there essentially. It also specifically calls out that magic items placed inside the bag offer no benefit to the person carrying the bag. Ambiguious in this particular instance.
Obviously if there is a FAQ ruling somewhere I'm unaware of please point me to it, or make a case as to why it cannot work this way, preferably citing your sources.
Actually:
You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.You are stuck being not mirrored.
Damn. Did they really forget to change that for the beneficial symbols?
@Cevah
SoD DOES have a hit point cap, but it also gives special rules if made permanent. Since SoM mimics SoD in many ways, I feel it's safe to use those rules. SoM last for 10 min when triggered, and then takes 10 min to reset afterwards. At least by RAI imo. By RAW I do believe it just lasts forever in "on" mode after being triggered. If you have a different way of reading it feel free to enlighten me.
Somehow, I never seem to have read that paragraph beyond "can be made permanent". :-/
As far as bag of holding goes, please point me to why it's no longer near anyone. Reading extradimensional spaces, and the bag of holding rules, I don't see why something with an aura wouldn't still project the aura from inside the bag. I point you specifically to the Bag of Holding rules, where it says an object can pierce the bag of holding from the inside. If an object can interact with the bag from the inside, it must still be there essentially. It also specifically calls out that magic items placed inside the bag offer no benefit to the person carrying the bag. Ambiguious in this particular instance.
Obviously if there is a FAQ ruling somewhere I'm unaware of please point me to it, or make a case as to why it cannot work this way, preferably citing your sources.
How about:
While endless adventure awaits out in the game—there are other worlds beyond these—other continents, other planets, other galaxies. Yet even beyond this existence of countless planets exist more worlds—entirely different dimensions of reality known as the planes of existence. Except for rare linking points that allow travel between them, each plane is effectively its own universe with its own natural laws. Collectively, the entirety of these other dimensions and planes is known as the Great Beyond.
Although the number of planes is limited only by imagination, they can all be categorized into five general types: the Material Plane, the transitive planes, the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, and the countless demiplanes.
This catchall category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access.
The Bag of Holding is actually a nondimensional space. 8-)
I don't see anything defining nondimensional spaces. However, there is this text:A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.
So, how far is 10' away when you do not have any dimension to measure from? There is no access to such a space except by the established interface of the opening. Since magic items don't benefit you from within the bag, why should a spell?
As to poking a hole in the bag, note the text "If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever." The item making the rupture does NOT come out the other side of the bag.
/cevah
Yeah, the nondimensional vs extradimensional is a bad wording error they need to remove. I do personally feel RAI it wouldn't work, but RAW is too muddled.
Although now that you mention it, what WOULD happen if you shot say, a fireball into a bag of holding? Would it hurt everything inside? Would it come out the top? Hmmm, physics wants to say that wherever you are in the bag you are always at the entrance too, but mixing physics with magic creates strange results.
Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally.I'm not sure if this sentence applies after the symbol is triggered or not. Is it possible to stop the active effect by covering the symbol?
I would rule it does NOT render it inoperative because:
Throwing a cover over a symbol of death to render it inoperative triggers it if the symbol reacts to touch.
This and the part that speaks of the symbol not working when covered is the same paragraph discussing how it operates prior to being triggered.
For permanency:
Symbol of death can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent symbol of death that is disabled or has affected its maximum number of hit points becomes inactive for 10 minutes, but then can be triggered again as normal.The way I read it: you cast the symbol, then you cast permanency. The symbol is inactive until it is triggered (but effective, unless it is covered). When it is triggered, the symbol becomes active...
Here I see two ways of interpetation.
1) After being triggered, the symbol is permanently active, until something disables it or until it reaches its HP limit - if that occurs it is inactive for 10 minutes and can after that be triggered again;
2) The symbol is normally active for its normal duration and becomes inactive after that for 10 minutes, then it can be triggered again.I think the first interpretation is closest to the text. But I don't like it, to be honnest. Basically you use a "trap" spell to create a zone effect, and I don't really see how the "trigger" part of the spell could be interesting then.
The second interpretation suggests that the symbol is really used as a trap.
I will have to discuss this with my DM.
The first interpretation is what I would go with, but remembering Symbol of Mirroring ONLY has a duration, and NO HP limit. Thus while Symbol of Death can be reset early by killing off 150 HP worth of creatures, Symbol of Mirroring will always remain active for 10 min before "recharging" for 10 min. Although I still feel a case can be made for it to be on permanently after triggering.
So far as I know, Rope Trick has the only reference to spell effects not passing the extra-dimensional boundary. No particularly reason to believe that an open extra-dimensional bag provides line of effect (in or out). Closed though, is closed.
True Rope Trick does have the only reference, but everything about it's reference seems to indicate it's particular extra-dimensional space is unique to all the others. It even calls this out in the description.
The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extra-dimensional space that is outside the usual multiverse of extra-dimensional spaces.
Which seems to indicate this is a very unique variant of extra-dimensional spaces. Unfortunately the spell Bag of Holding is based on has no reference point for this either, other than that you could mount an expedition to retrieve it if you lose the small duplicate chest.
I mean, the inside of the chest has dimensions in some manner, they are just larger than those of the bag. It opens into an extra-dimensional space that is part of the usual multiverse of them. The only other spell I'm aware of that has an actual gateway/portal that leads to another plane is Gate, and this makes no mention of being unable to cast spells across it. I think it's probably about time for this to be it's own thread, so here it is. link
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the way the symbol functions makes sense to me, even though it feels very underdesigned.
Im just very curious if while the symbol is concealed the images replicate themselves during the 1round/level.
example of usage.
PreCast and Activate symbol.
Whole party sans caster gets an image.
symbol is placed in bag
1round/level left on images
Enter Combat
Round 1 an image is struck down, does this image reappear on that characters turn while the symbol is hidden, or does the symbol have to be visible for the images to have that refresh effect.
To me the wording says the image has the clause, 'If destroyed, refresh on next turn unless the duration of 1round/level has lapsed or the symbol has expired.
By the way,
The spell itself cost 100gp to cast and last for as long as it's still untriggered.
Permanency costs 5000gp.Just cast it multiple times before adventuring, unless you think you will use it more than 50 times. In fact you rarely have the time to prepare yourself that much before every battles (that may depend on the campain and DM, of course).
Even better if you have the false focus feat.
the way the symbol functions makes sense to me, even though it feels very underdesigned.
Im just very curious if while the symbol is concealed the images replicate themselves during the 1round/level.
example of usage.
PreCast and Activate symbol.
Whole party sans caster gets an image.
symbol is placed in bag
1round/level left on images
Enter Combat
Round 1 an image is struck down, does this image reappear on that characters turn while the symbol is hidden, or does the symbol have to be visible for the images to have that refresh effect.
To me the wording says the image has the clause, 'If destroyed, refresh on next turn unless the duration of 1round/level has lapsed or the symbol has expired.
Actual wording is "The images last for as long as a creature remains within 60 feet of the symbol, and for 1 round/level thereafter. Once triggered, the symbol remains active for 10 minutes per caster level."
If undisturbed, that gives you 10 minutes/level for new targets to be added, and 1 round/level beyond that when existing targets continue generating.
The duplicates keep generating while the Symbol's power is operating, which is 1 round per level after no more Symbol. [No matter if it was dispelled, erased, or placed in a extradimensional bag.]
/cevah
Damn. Did they really forget to change that for the beneficial symbols?
Actually:
You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.You are stuck being not mirrored.
They don't have to. Symbol of mirroring says it affects ALL creatures, overriding the "caster not included" verbiage of circle of death. It does not, however, override the "set complex conditions" verbiage of symbol of death. Thus, symbol of mirroring works perfectly as written.
How many necromancers do you have in that huge cache of yours Ravingdork? And which one raised this thread?
Also, Ravingdork is wrong. Symbol of mirroring has no such wording.
This spell functions as symbol of death, except it instead creates one illusory duplicate of each creature within 60 feet of the symbol. These duplicates function as mirror image, moving with the original creatures and mimicking their movements, sounds, and actions exactly. If an illusory double is destroyed, a new one appears on the creature’s turn. The images last for as long as a creature remains within 60 feet of the symbol, and for 1 round/level thereafter. Once triggered, the symbol remains active for 10 minutes per caster level.
All of the beneficial symbols by the RAW function poorly at best because they all say "works as symbol of death" which produces a harmful effect that you want your enemies to suffer from but not you or your allies. The net result is that without creative interpretation these spells buff your enemies and exclude you and your allies.
Another thing to think about:
The SoD states: Once triggered, the symbol becomes active and glows, lasting for 10 minutes per caster level or until it has affected 150 hit points’ worth of creatures, whichever comes first.
Is this part of SoD negated? Perhaps you only duplicate 150 hp worth of characters before the symbol deactivates. At higher levels, that could be easily filled up by the party or even one PC.
Opinions?
/cevah
"except it instead creates one illusory duplicate of each creature within 60 feet of the symbol." This overrides the symbol of death's text that you can't use it on you.
Well, there is this:
You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.
/cevah
EDIT: Wow, what a ninja. I relied before the quote.
"except it instead creates one illusory duplicate of each creature within 60 feet of the symbol." This overrides the symbol of death's text that you can't use it on you.
I agree that the spell is poorly written. The first and last line of the spell seem to indicate how it is different from symbol of death. The rest of the text simply deals with how the mirror image effect is handled.
What I quoted above is the entirety of the spell description. The 1st and last lines seem to only modify the 1st paragraph of symbol of death. I don't see any reason why the rest of it would be adjusted unless everything else is completely removed.
Symbol of death states
This spell allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. When triggered, a symbol of death kills one or more creatures within 60 feet of the symbol (treat as a burst) whose combined total current hit points do not exceed 150. The symbol of death affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect. Once triggered, the symbol becomes active and glows, lasting for 10 minutes per caster level or until it has affected 150 hit points’ worth of creatures, whichever comes first. A creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.
using the 1st and last line of symbol of mirroring as a guide, the revised description seems to be.
This spell allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. When triggered, a symbol of mirroring creates one illusory duplicate of each creature within 60 feet of the symbol. Once triggered, the symbol becomes active and glows, lasting for 10 minutes per caster level. A creature that enters the area while the symbol of mirroring is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.
The paragraphs that follow this one all remain unchanged except to reference symbol of mirroring instead of symbol of death. You'll notice the original text of symbol of death says that it affects all creatures within 60 feet. The only reason it doesn't affect the caster is because 6 paragraphs later it states "oh btw, you can never be effected by your own symbol of death". Symbol of mirroring has no specific statement that this clause no longer applies. The only adjustment to who it effects is to remove the HP limit.
That being said, I would never run this spell by the RAW, because it's stupid. IMO it should ONLY effect characters it is attuned to and/or know the password. Instead of the password making you immune to the beneficial effect.
I agree that my interpretation is a little bit of a stretch, but when you have one interpretation that allows the rules to be used as intended, and one that neither makes sense nor works as intended, the former is usually the one that ends up being correct.