Goblin Squad Member
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I also am apprehensive of the devs assuming the worst of the player population and putting in place unduly restrictive measures, before seeing if they're even needed.
I think it's usually better-received by a playerbase when the devs 'ease up on the whupass' than to start with things open and then crack down. Players will find ways around whatever restrictions are in place. They'll find the corner-cases and systematize them. Even if it takes a week for someone to find the shortest path to the cheese, inside of a month it will be common knowledge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also am apprehensive of the devs assuming the worst of the player population and putting in place unduly restrictive measures, before seeing if they're even needed.
It's better to start out on the extreemly strict side and ease up than to hit everyone with a massive nerf after the fact.
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Can we be spawned / made into undead creatures and still play? A horrible, horrible death makes a crafter into a ghost or banshee that haunts his shop/smithy? (Go ahead and rob that shop, I triple dog dare you...) Become a lich as a capstone? Mummify your fightery buddies? Set up contingent create undead to mummify you on the spot when you get killed?
Oh, and speaking of Team Evil ... Old Cults, 'nuff said. Why worship false invaders from other planes when you can worship the gods/beings that are native? Aid them in overthrowing the yoke of the brainwashings of light, good, blah blah blah. When the stars come right, perform the incantations at the Menhirs of Mnar...
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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There is some discussion about the "mindless" undeads such as skelektons or zombies, but lichs wendigos etc certainly have inteligence , so they have a soul, some even remember stuff they experienced while alive. Even if you consider that "mindless" undeads don't have a soul involved in their creation, they are animated trough NEGATIVE energy, that is obviously opposite to positive energy that is the energy animating any living being. Manipulating negative energy (that comes from the negative planes) is evil, period.Especially if we keep in mind that in PF lore creating an undead negativelly affects his soul in afterlife. Basically you are enslaving a soul, what is, with no doubt, evil.I keep seeing this come up, but every reference I've found says the opposite. Where does this information come from?
Even mindless undead have their souls. The souls of mindless undead, however, are cursed to observe only, with no way of influencing events or controlling their body. Arguably, the souls of mindless undead still feel pain, even though their bodies do not.
The souls sentient undead are likewise effected; the sentience is created by magic and resides in the physical, not spiritual, portion of the abomination. It is even possible that the souls of sentient undead are privy to the thoughts going through the brains of those things, but without any way to change or control them. The ethics board has refused all experiments to determine if that is the case.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Even mindless undead have their souls. The souls of mindless undead, however, are cursed to observe only, with no way of influencing events or controlling their body. Arguably, the souls of mindless undead still feel pain, even though their bodies do not.The souls sentient undead are likewise effected; the sentience is created by magic and resides in the physical, not spiritual, portion of the abomination. It is even possible that the souls of sentient undead are privy to the thoughts going through the brains of those things, but without any way to change or control them. The ethics board has refused all experiments to determine if that is the case.
Where can you reference that in the Pathfinder rules? I've looked and have not found such a statement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Where can you reference that in the Pathfinder rules? I've looked and have not found such a statement.
Even mindless undead have their souls. The souls of mindless undead, however, are cursed to observe only, with no way of influencing events or controlling their body. Arguably, the souls of mindless undead still feel pain, even though their bodies do not.The souls sentient undead are likewise effected; the sentience is created by magic and resides in the physical, not spiritual, portion of the abomination. It is even possible that the souls of sentient undead are privy to the thoughts going through the brains of those things, but without any way to change or control them. The ethics board has refused all experiments to determine if that is the case.
I'd actually like to know as well, since this directly contradicts the text of the Magic Jar spell.
(Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thus far in the development process, every advantage seems to be for the forces of Good. Is this a problem?
Undead Creation? Devil/Daemon/Demon Summoning?
Players want to play a concept, but they also want to "win the game." It seems to me that the forces of Evil are set up to fail, and I think that will be a big discouragement to many players, myself included.
It's in the best interest of the game to encourage diversity in alignment on all levels of play - from individual interactions, all the way to conflicts between kingdoms.
This seems like a fairly large oversight in what I've considered to be a pretty spot on development process thus far.
I don't believe we've seen a glimpse of "the big picture" yet. I thought that a LG settlement having all the boons was a bad idea... until the blog was released and now a good number of people who thought that LG was going to be easy will find themselves more akin to NG or CG. How does that factor in to the equation? Numbers. LG will be fewer than LE, NE, or CE... in theory. I say in theory because until the game is released that is all any of us are doing... theorizing.
I'm fairly certain they will allow for undead if not initially, at least have the dev stem to expand on depending on how large of an audience wants it. That same system would probably overlap for planar creatures as well.
I don't believe evil is set up to fail. Killing folk and taking their resources will incur an evil and/or chaotic shift... which most players who are striving to remain good, may do once or twice, but not to the point where it will prevent their character concepts from being realized. Evil can kill good and take their stuff if they want to be evil because they are evil. Good can't do the same. So when you throw the first punch, make it a good one, take their stuff. That's what bad guys do. This leads to evil advancing at a faster pace then good resource wise. Since LG will have boons, taking out LG settlements should probably be on the list of priorites for evil... otherwise evil will have a harder and harder time dealing with LG upping their numbers.
Meaningful player interaction. I think this all will lead to a CG/LE trend. CG out of player habit and behavior. LE out of evil wanting to be the best evil it can be. I mean, who really wants to be the evil that gets it's butts handed to them day in and day out? Good can't take the moral shortcuts that evil can. Good can't throw the first punch.
Again, this is all theory. Besides "griefing", we haven't really looked at player behavior patterns. What people want to do in the game may not line up with what their aspirations for their character allow. I think a fair ammount of where we see or will see as system imbalance is deliberate mechanical adjustments based on player behavior trends. I also think that they will build a system that they can fine tune.
Just my two copper.
-Areks
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Or I suppose the evilest of folks will need to work together like the bad guys in a good story...establish a heirarchy and delegate the suffering :)
Yep, and we better get started soon. We had a poor showing on the landrush boards. Need a strong guildleader to come forth and marshall us minions.
@Areks - Good can throw the first punch. Nothing is stopping them. Sure they take an alignment/rep hit and set themselves up for a bounty but they can probably kill enuff gobbos to get the hits back. And it costs them less to "nuke" than us "evils". (see below) If I was going to be a ganker I'd start out as LG and watch my alignment gradually change until I had to move on. That could net me some phat loot.
Also the statement "This leads to evil advancing at a faster pace then good resource wise" is not necessarily true. For every caravan some evil might hijack, there could be many more getting thru. Plus if you don't want to kill and opt for stand and deliver, well all you are getting is money, or a small portion of the resources.
There is another mechanic in the blog that is a bit disturbing to me should I want to be an "evil" archtype. It will cost me more Rep points to level Calistra's Curse than for a good aligned person. "The reputation cost is proportional to the reputation of your killer, and increases over time."
I gotta agree with Danneth and there is starting to be very little incentive to RP evil. Poor towns, poor training, poor equipment, untrusty companions, small undisciplined guilds, poor and costly access to safeguards, (yeah, the rules were made for me too) and even simply playing my class (forget about any kind of banditry) hits my alignment and rep sending me spiralling towards CE. And if they don't allow antipaladins we get one less class archetype to persue. (Haven't seen anything that says they are in the game and they weren't a core class in first PFO guide)
Lookin' really dark on the Darkside.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Snowbeard-
Would evil hesitate to take advantage of good if it meant shifting towards evil? No.
Would good hesitate to take advantage of evil if it meant shifting towards evil? Yes.
Sure caravans get through, but you've already sabotaged their resource site twice, taken control of another, and have been mining resources of your own. So by the time they get a working site established and start transport, you are ahead of the game.
Now if good were to do this, they would shift to evil... which is the cause and effect for them NOT doing it nearly as often as evil is allowed because it is already evil.
I just find it ironic that more than a few people that were looking to play LG are now looking to play LE because it looks more appealing and those who originally planned to play evil are finding it more and more lacking.
Oh and you can have a high rep and be evil. In which case, it would be as difficult if not more so to level the curse on evil characters than good. Good aligned settlements are more likely to have higher rep standards for access. Nuke one high rep bad guy and you can no longer train at your home station until you build your rep back up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The happiness of the person isn't negated by their death. Enslaving the dead is no less an abomination than enslaving the living; arguably, it's less evil to enslave the living because they have the capability to attempt resistance.The idea arising in this forum that banditry is evil but necromancy is not is exceedingly curious.I define good and evil by the promotion of happiness or suffering. If an undead is mindless, it can suffer about as much as a rock. The same is not true of stealing someone's time by robbing them of the resources they earned in that time.
So enslaving something that has a will, that wishes to resist, that longs to be free, is less evil than enslaving something that doesn't care either way?
Are you sure that's what you meant?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everyone keeps trying to get GW to go against their promises. I'm hoping the GW stays good to its word when I pledged.
Based on that promise, we should expect to see a mechanical advantage that reflects the fantasy assumption that Lawful and Good settlements will be more effective. It's one of the reasons I pledged so much.
I think we have the right to expect them to keep the foundational promises that they made to generate their KS funding. To do otherwise will reflect badly not only on them, but on the Pathfinder and Paizo brands as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even mindless undead have their souls. The souls of mindless undead, however, are cursed to observe only, with no way of influencing events or controlling their body. Arguably, the souls of mindless undead still feel pain, even though their bodies do not.
The souls sentient undead are likewise effected; the sentience is created by magic and resides in the physical, not spiritual, portion of the abomination. It is even possible that the souls of sentient undead are privy to the thoughts going through the brains of those things, but without any way to change or control them. The ethics board has refused all experiments to determine if that is the case.
Ok, this clarifies things a lot on your opinion. I'd love to delve a little more into what the source books say about this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, this clarifies things a lot on your opinion. I'd love to delve a little more into what the source books say about this.Even mindless undead have their souls. The souls of mindless undead, however, are cursed to observe only, with no way of influencing events or controlling their body. Arguably, the souls of mindless undead still feel pain, even though their bodies do not.
The souls sentient undead are likewise effected; the sentience is created by magic and resides in the physical, not spiritual, portion of the abomination. It is even possible that the souls of sentient undead are privy to the thoughts going through the brains of those things, but without any way to change or control them. The ethics board has refused all experiments to determine if that is the case.
Its not core source. As pointed out above it contradicts Magic Jar (which clearly states only sentient undead have or are souls) for starters.
Potentially that standpoint comes from one of the undead fluff books that 3.5 was infested with. Addon books often took a radically different perspective from core.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also am apprehensive of the devs assuming the worst of the player population and putting in place unduly restrictive measures, before seeing if they're even needed.It's better to start out on the extreemly strict side and ease up than to hit everyone with a massive nerf after the fact.
100% yes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Strictly speaking though, we need to look and see what Pathfinder, not D&D books say. But yeah, my understanding of D&D unintelligent undead is that they are animated by negative energy and magic, not corrupted souls like intelligent undead. And in the case of the latter, corrupted =/= enslaved. Ultimately, intelligent undead are acting out their will, which just happens to be quite different from what it was when they were alive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not against their will though. They have to want to return to their pre undead state. That goes for any resurrection though.Intelligent undead can be resurrected back to their pre-undead state though.
Not that I have ever seen everyone use resurrect to fight undead.
True
Though, if you destroyed them you could then resurrect them and hope they might fight for your side in gratitude :D
probably would not work well with a Lich though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Depends how you destroy them. Trade mark of lower level resurrections, beyond negative levels, if you need the intact body. Higher levels, you need less, until you hit True Resurrection where you only need to identify them.
None of them can revive those dead of old age, so if an old guy died, became a zombie, then you put it down, THAT you couldn't resurrect.
From resurrection:
"You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be resurrected."
Which also means some undead creatures are not former creatures, I guess?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which also means some undead creatures are not former creatures, I guess?
Nope ... undead template specifically states "Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces".
However the original creature may be something non-resurrectable like an outsider (Nightwalker for example).
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I would like to see for say a LE settlement would be getting caught.
So in most LE style cities and such, murdering is offically frowned upon, but its not actually the murder that gets frowned apon its getting caught. Most LE organizations know that its members are going to ruthlessly stab each other in the back and kill each other, the challenge is to do it without anyone being able to PROVE it.
Going with that i would like to see an option where in an LE organization you could say murder someone, but not get a flag for it under certain conditions. So if you murder someone in the middle of town well, you get flagged for murder (how crass murdering someone so blatantly). However if you some how lure that person into a dark ally and there are no witnesses, you would not get a flag.
If you have buddies help you they can "report" you and you gain a flag (perhaps up to say 24 hours later), or they can be quite and not utter a word, gaining the the favor of the attacker (say the attacker gifts everyone some rep).
or in a heated melee when no one is looking you give your rival a killing blow, no one notices....ohhh look he fell to the good doers, how sad.
"Ahhh Rhitler congratulations on your promotion to the second circle. You earned it. It is sad to think that the former second circle had a bad heart and died so suddenly. Such a tradegy. You will be glad to note that the rest of us are not so....frail. Again welcome brother."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Has anyone mentioned the spiffy uniforms and cool gear LE seem to get ?
Stephen Cheney has :)
From Being Heinous, and the perils of playing evil:
In general, we're pretty sure that MMOs are a race to the bottom, Lord of the Flies style, if you don't put in mechanics to try to incentivize better behavior. Keep in mind that we're quite likely to have a large contingent of players that wound up Evil not due to a principled roleplaying decision, but because they like killing dudes and think evil has the best clothes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow, thanks for linking this thread, Nihimon. I don't know how I missed it. (Anyone else feel like Nihimon is their personal wikipedia of all things PFO related?)
That thread was asking essentially the same thing I was asking in this thread - do they actually want us to have fun playing Evil characters, and do they see it as an equally viable character option with the ability to accomplish all that a Good character can?
Until we get mummies and liches and ghosts, oh my!
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Where can you reference that in the Pathfinder rules? I've looked and have not found such a statement.
Even mindless undead have their souls. The souls of mindless undead, however, are cursed to observe only, with no way of influencing events or controlling their body. Arguably, the souls of mindless undead still feel pain, even though their bodies do not.The souls sentient undead are likewise effected; the sentience is created by magic and resides in the physical, not spiritual, portion of the abomination. It is even possible that the souls of sentient undead are privy to the thoughts going through the brains of those things, but without any way to change or control them. The ethics board has refused all experiments to determine if that is the case.
I'd actually like to know as well, since this directly contradicts the text of the Magic Jar spell.
(Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
That description was written by a necromancer who had no problem with removing his soul from their body; when he attempted to force entry into an undead creature, he was unable to exercise control; naturally, he assumed that was because there was no soul to displace. Arguably, it was because the soul that he displaced had no control of the body, and therefore displacing it did not grant control over the corpse.
If undead creatures have no souls, then raising a creature as undead destroys the soul that it used to have- still evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Like corpses raised as zombies or skeletons? You know, the ones whose souls are already gone and in the afterlife?
Or vampires, mummies, liches, etc. which all keep their original soul (but corrupt the positive energy in it)?
Or ghosts, or wraiths, or spectres who are souls without a body?
Sounds a lot more like you're talking about demonic possession than most forms of necromancy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That description was written by a necromancer who had no problem with removing his soul from their body; when he attempted to force entry into an undead creature, he was unable to exercise control; naturally, he assumed that was because there was no soul to displace. Arguably, it was because the soul that he displaced had no control of the body, and therefore displacing it did not grant control over the corpse.
If undead creatures have no souls, then raising a creature as undead destroys the soul that it used to have- still evil.
This is a joke, right?