"Alchemical Weapon (Su)
At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.
This ability replaces poison resistance."
So I am kicking around a PC idea and finding something a bit vague. This ability works with "harmful alchemical liquid or powder". And while both bombs and extracts would seem to fit that qualifier bother are left out of the example. This leads me to think it was not meant to work like that. But well as it is written it does not seem to exclude them.
On a side note has anyone toyed with the idea of a melee Grenadier before? Any thoughts there.
-edit- Make that question about bombs or potions. Of course extracts wont work they don't work if they leave his possession.
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I played an elf grenadier vivasectiomist who went into duelist...it was quite scary really.
Alchemists' bombs are (confusingly) not considered alchemical items. Alchemical items are mundane, while an alchemist's bombs are supernatural. Similarly, potions are magic items, not alchemical items.
To find a list of alchemical items, look at this post by Eric Clingenpeel.
Ahh so it is limited to the the items that are pretty useless past the low lvls. That's a shame as it was a cool idea.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Ahh so it is limited to the the items that are pretty useless past the low lvls. That's a shame as it was a cool idea.
I disagree. Tossing a little holy water or alchemists fire on a weapon to get a little bonus damage each round isn't useless. If you are fighting a spellcaster, tossing sneezing powder or a ghast retch flask on the weapon forces a Fortitude save or they are gimped, in the case of the ghast retch flask, they are sickened even if they save which is nice. The saves are low, but that's why you target creatures you suspect have low Fort saves. Considering you can add these effects or damage once ever round, it can add up over time.
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I am doing a melee grenadier but he was supposed to be a vivisectionist, viv got banned in society. I don't feel the alc can handle melee on it's own but twice I have mixed Alc with either Barbarian(armored hulk variant) or Fighter for melee based PCs. This way I get both heavy armor and a shield and can paste in melee. With vestigial arms alc discovery, I can hold a shield, wield a 2hw, and still have a hand free to throw bombs, or retrieve and activate: potions, extracts, wands. Very happy with these blends.
Gota disagree. Since the DC's on these things do not scale in any way they quickly become something only failed on a 1. A 5% chance is not worth the investment and the damage items most certainly are to weak to matter past say lvl 8.
ghast retch flask though. That one I will give you. At least it does something on a fail. Though sickened is not that strong of a debuff for 50gp a pop.
Looking through these it really makes me thing that alchemical items are very much missing a few higher end options.
Though as was mentioned above mixed with Vivisectionist might still make for a good melee alch. I don;t suppose there is some way out there to boost the DC of a alchemical item that I am unaware of?
I am doing a melee grenadier but he was supposed to be a vivisectionist, viv got banned in society. I don't feel the alc can handle melee on it's own but twice I have mixed Alc with either Barbarian(armored hulk variant) or Fighter for melee based PCs. This way I get both heavy armor and a shield and can paste in melee. With vestigial arms alc discovery, I can hold a shield, wield a 2hw, and still have a hand free to throw bombs, or retrieve and activate: potions, extracts, wands. Very happy with these blends.
You sir have a very good point. Shield with a 2hander goes a long way to make up for alchemical items be kind of meh.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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I am doing a melee grenadier but he was supposed to be a vivisectionist, viv got banned in society. I don't feel the alc can handle melee on it's own but twice I have mixed Alc with either Barbarian(armored hulk variant) or Fighter for melee based PCs. This way I get both heavy armor and a shield and can paste in melee. With vestigial arms alc discovery, I can hold a shield, wield a 2hw, and still have a hand free to throw bombs, or retrieve and activate: potions, extracts, wands. Very happy with these blends.
Can't disagree more. With Feral Mutagen and a solid strength boost, and liberal doses of heroism (best taken via alchemical allocation as a second level extract with potion), straight alchemist is a solid melee class. Add in wings, and bombs and its easily one of the most versatile combat classes in the game.
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Dennis, I am not disagreeing your options are potent but they do not fit my style/standards.
Your option depends on having the mutagen. Even being able to cook up several a day, I rarely play in a group that is good with me drinking a mutagen and spending an hour to brew it again. The mutagen only lasts 10/minutes per level, and is a standard action in itself. Same with extracts/potions of Heroism. Good if all your fights are close to each other and the group does not spend a lot of time searching as they travel or lose time debating what door to open next. Not as good as a real breakfast spell hour per level duration. Especially if you doubt you can cook new mutagens throughout the day and fear you may need to travel to another fight far away beyond the duration.
Using light armor is not very protective. Are you wasting a turn(most precious resource in the game) drinking a shield extract? You seem pretty vulnerable to me. The feral mutagen gives no ability score bonus, which you suggested they need, nor AC.
I know the feral mutagen with vivisectionist can do lots of damage but as I wrote before, viv is banned in society. It also presumes you hit in the first place, not easy with 3/4 BAB and questionable strength. Weapon focus would have to be taken twice for clw/bite compared to once with a martial weapon from grenadier or multiclassing. I know WF is not sexy enough to be popular but bear with me since I point out that hitting with a 3/4 and questionable strength is not easy. DR is also a major problem compared to buy two/three melee weapons.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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What I'm saying is if you build an alchemist around melee, he's going to be just fine. Mututated they are amazing, not mutated they are decent. They have plenty of class abilities other than the mutagen to keep them going.
If you build any melee oriented character with 'questionable strength' he's not going to do well at melee... The same goes for a barbarian with questionable strength.
All characters are built around compromises. Alchemists are bursty, but they have a lot of flexibility which more pure combat classes lack.
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I have a 10th level grenadier and I still get a lot of use out Alchemical Weapon. I use it in combination with the Explosive Missile Discovery. Small Heavy Crossbow +1 plus acid flask plus bomb plus 24 Int equals 1d8+1+1d6+7+5d6+7 damage with a short range of 120 ft. Admittadly, throwing 4 bombs a round with Rapid Shot & Haste is more powerful but even with 22 bombs I find myself running out in a lot of adventures. So sometimes I need to slow down the pace and the above combo helps keep my DPR up.
It also helps if I want to chuck a Tanglefoot bag a great distance. A hit from a Tanglefoot Bag still entangles the tanget whether they save or not.
I ran a game with pregenerated characters a while back*, and the Alchemical Weapon ability provided a good tool for a long-distance ambush. The group was equipped with bows (There's nothing in the ability that says the Alchemist has to fire the missile!) and the additives last a full minute. (1 minute = 10 rounds = 16 move actions + 2 rounds of attacks = rain of fire at 200')
On another note, I agree that some more powerful alchemical items would be a cool addition to the game. The variety of effects is already quite good, but some way to increase save DCs would be great.
- Pyromancer -> Alchemist
- Priest of R'hllor -> Oracle
- Noble -> Ranger
- Faceless Man -> Ninja
Are you adding your INT bonus twice? I don't think you add your INT bonus when you use the grenadier's alchemical weapon ability. That increases damage with thrown splash weapons. At that point it's not a splash weapon or thrown.
I asked Russ, the author, and he had this to say.
Going back to the OP, is the general consensus that you can NOT put bomb in your weapon using Alchemical Weapon? Asking because we have a few local players with grenadiers at our local PFS and clarification would be great.
CRobledo, alchemists bombs are not alchemical items as the game defines them. They are supernatural class features. And while they are also objects, the fact that they're magical means that they are definitively not alchemical items.
That was my thought as well. Thanks.
Going back to the OP, is the general consensus that you can NOT put bomb in your weapon using Alchemical Weapon? Asking because we have a few local players with grenadiers at our local PFS and clarification would be great.
No but they can pickup the explosive missile discovery which will let them add bomb damage and effects to missile weapons, even firearms.
in fact the discovery lets you fire a one handed firearm faster than normal without the associated feats like rapid reload. as long as your proficient you can imbue load and fire as a standard action with explosive missile.