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So I have a player joining one of my pathfinder games who I've played with and is known for making game breaking characters. I have plenty of experience as a DM, so this isn't a DMing tips and tricks question. What I'd like to do is preemptively ban hammer any game breaking design concepts. So my questions is this:
Are there any threads discussing game breaking character combinations?
This is something that will help in this instance and in the future for if I allow any other well informed power gamers in to my games. Because I've known more than one player that lurks forums looking for game breaking designs. So if they're out there for Pathfinder, I'd prefer to know BEFORE they're used against me.
Synthesis Summoner.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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There are no game breaking designs, only game breaking players. Suggest to him strongly that it's a cooperative game that bringing a disruptive character to the table will get him ejected.
If you give him a list of 'known broken' builds, all you are doing is offering up a challenge and he will redouble his efforts to build uber-character.
Zen archer... Humble, but broken...
Go ahead and ban everything then, because anything is breakable with enough system mastery. Slap him upside the head and tell him to quiddit.
Though I guess Summoner and maybe Gunslinger are considered to be the most easily "breakable" classes, but really limiting his options will just make him go "Okay then. Challenge accepted." and trying even harder to break what's left out of spite if he's the kind of guy I'm thinking of.
You're better off phrasing things in a positive way.
Here's the issue, it's not like you're going to run out of challenges to throw at the party. The real problem is that he might over class the other players.
So, hold him to the average set by the other players. If they're not doing it, then don't let him do it.
And push him on having the character make sense. If he wants to play a half-orc with Dervish Dance, then how did that half-orc come to live in the lands of Sarenrae? If there's no solid answer, don't allow it.
Take a look at the Optimization Guides. You can break any class. . . well maybe not the Mystic Theurge, but that is something else.
If breaking things is his game, once every couple of months you could run a short arena pvp and allow all the cheese the players can bring so he can vent his game-breaker-gene. Letting him vent his cheese will also help other players see new and interesting ways to build, and will give you insight into the potential snags you may be facing in the future, and a chance to research and rule on said snags prior to them actually arising at the game table you care about.
Bottom line, if he wants to break a class, he will break a class. Like everyone else, I would sit him down and explain the goals of the players in terms of role-play style v. mechanics, and your personal goals as far as story and play style.
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Nice try, min/max player posing as DM.
Zen archer... Humble, but broken...
Not broken. Just gently shattered into a trillion pieces that look like floating bits of star dust.
Throw in some qigong monk for more zen ability.
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So I have a player joining one of my pathfinder games who I've played with and is known for making game breaking characters. I have plenty of experience as a DM, so this isn't a DMing tips and tricks question. What I'd like to do is preemptively ban hammer any game breaking design concepts. So my questions is this:
Are there any threads discussing game breaking character combinations?
This is something that will help in this instance and in the future for if I allow any other well informed power gamers in to my games. Because I've known more than one player that lurks forums looking for game breaking designs. So if they're out there for Pathfinder, I'd prefer to know BEFORE they're used against me.
A player with a complete understanding of the game mechanics can create a broken character of any class.
Some classes and archetypes just require less effort.
Easy: Know the rules. Most "broken builds" are broken because someone misread/didn't know the rules.
Thats why I always ask my players to really read all rules related to their characters (e.g you want to create a brawler? Read and understand the grapple rules) and then have a small talk with them about it.
Also it is good to know what kind of character they want to play, so you can familiarize yourself with the related rules.
Easy: Know the rules. Most "broken builds" are broken because someone misread/didn't know the rules.
Thats why I always ask my players to really read all rules related to their characters (e.g you want to create a brawler? Read and understand the grapple rules) and then have a small talk with them about it.
Also it is good to know what kind of character they want to play, so you can familiarize yourself with the related rules.
No I'm sure the Zen Archer is broken with a side of Strong Sauce...
Come on now...
The Zen Archer is definitely not broken.... the Bow wielding Sohei who can Flurry AND Many Shot AND Rapid Shot... is.
@Kerney How do you define mechanical cheese?
I tend to define it as using something RAW to go against RAI (so it tends to be open to interpretation)
In my example above, it is my opinion(!) that the Sohei was not intended to be faster at archery than the Zen Archer, and that it should not be allowed to use rapid and manyshot RAI. However, it may do so RAW as far as I can tell. Therefor, it is mechanical cheese, and therefore mechanically broken.
Vivisectionist/Beastmorph Alchemist. That being said, I don't think this a good approach to dealing with your player.
You're never going to get any consensus on what is broken. The gaming community itself is "broken" over this very question. There are plenty of players who think if it's not pun-pun, it's fine.
The best way to deal with this is not to ban known broken builds, but to tell every player that each character will be subject to GM review and approval, and builds that are too far above the rest of the party will be rejected for the sake of party synergy and fun.
This thread is useless as a measure until you can define what is or is not "game-breaking" for your games.
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This is what you are looking for. There are a variety of builds, some broken, some not. You can peruse for yourself, but the better builds are marked with three stars.
I also agree that the more complex builds (synthesist summoner) tend to be "broken," because they are built without fully understanding the rules.
This is what you are looking for. There are a variety of builds, some broken, some not. You can peruse for yourself, but the better builds are marked with three stars.
I also agree that the more complex builds (synthesist summoner) tend to be "broken," because they are built without fully understanding the rules.
Only 20 of my characters made it up? What a crock!
You don't even have The Rann brothers, Sela Kurn, or Yiankun Lee.
;P
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Enforce no stat under 10, age set to no higher than adult, core races, class restriction to core with exception on case by case bases, use the wealth by level as a guide line instead as a marker and that will easily help the smell of cheese to go away. Other wise u end up with builds like the following that i used to bring hell to my DM that refused to admit that limitation is a good thing.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1
-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34
-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40
AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28
-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34
-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44
AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58
-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (8)
Improved Damage (claws)
-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20
-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)
High ac, saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.
Mr. Dice Guy, wasn't Flurry "clarified" to not work with bows?
http://dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?t=120080
Also, if furry of blows is a full round action, how could you use both it + rapid shot (another full round action) in the same round?
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Hey Ravingdork - The guide to the builds is mostly for people like the OP. It's to help people create characters, not just look at them. Generally, builds need to meet a bunch of criteria (for example, what feats at what levels and what the build looks like at different levels), but I made an exception for you because I like some of your builds so much!
If you have favorite though, let me know and I'll put them on. :)
Over a month ago, paizo devs changed some monk stuff, including flurry.
Seen here
Also, you can't flurry with rapid shot, however currently the sohei has a weird writing of this, which by RAW, allows them to flurry and rapid shot/ many shot.
Mr. Dice Guy, wasn't Flurry "clarified" to not work with bows?
http://dndonlinegames.com/showthread.php?t=120080
Also, if furry of blows is a full round action, how could you use both it + rapid shot (another full round action) in the same round?
They recounted that you can now flurry with a single weapon again
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@Kerney How do you define mechanical cheese?
I tend to define it as using something RAW to go against RAI (so it tends to be open to interpretation)
This is a case of you know it when you see it. Last night, for example, I played with a Gunslinger who did 200+ pts around (at 12th level) with touch attacks. I don't know the mechanics, however, it was powerful. The rest of the party was doing---much less. I don't know for sure but I suspect mechanical cheese. Knowing the player, I suspect that there are probably some favorable 'rules interpretations' as well.
On the other hand, I'm running in PFS a fighter/rogue (thug) built partially around intimidate/dazzling display. Under certain circumstances, I will be come off as very cheesy because most DMs will not be ready for it. And it's fun. Last week I had a room full of goblins all flee in panic. However, this strategy will not always be helpful because there are a lot of counters to it; constructs and swarms for example.
My comment to the OP is, see if your person is building a cheese master, see if there are strategies that work against it, and if so, use them.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Also, you can't flurry with rapid shot, however currently the sohei has a weird writing of this, which by RAW, allows them to flurry and rapid shot/ many shot.
Can you tell me more about this? I don't see how the Sohei changes the flurry rules at all, according to the archetype page here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/sohei
Supposedly they don't have the prevention of using rapid shot and many shot while flurryng, while the zen archer monk, clearly states you cannot gain both benefits.
As for gunslingers, as mentioned, they do enormous amount of damage, naturally from their abilities. No cheese about it. The cheese is letting the class in or not limiting it in some fashion.
Refresh page, I corrected it.
Be up front with your player. Ask him what the character's cheese is. Alternately, challenge him to create a difficult character. If all of his characters one shot enemies, tell him to break a support character.
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Xurtr, Half-Giant barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 1
CR: 1
XP: 400
Type: CN Medium humanoid (giant, human)
Init: 1
Senses: low-light vision; Perception +6
Defense
AC: 17, touch 11, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +1 Dex)
HP: 21 (1d12+1d8+4)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +1; +2 vs. fire
Offense
Speed: 30 ft.
Melee: Mwk large greatsword +8 (3d6+7/19-20) or, large morningstar +6 (2d6+7) or, large dagger +6 (2d6+5/19-20)
Space: 5 ft.
Reach: 5 ft.
Ranged: longbow +2 (2d6/x3) or, dagger +2 (1d6+4/19-20)
Special attacks: Rage 13 rounds/day, Stomp (ML 1st; DC 9; 1/day)
Powers known (ML 2nd; concentration +3; powerpoints 3/day)
1st - Expansion (P), Force Screen
(P) Path power; Warrior path: Interceptor
Statistics
Ability Scores: Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Attack: 1
CMB: 7
CMD: 18
Feats: Extra Rage, Psionic Talent, Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Skills: Autohypnosis +6, Perception +6, Survival +5
Racial Mods: +4 survival
Traits: Killer, Psionic Knack
Languages: Common
SQ: Powerful build
Ecology
Gear: large arrows (20) backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, breastplate, crowbar, flint and steel, large dagger, large longbow, large morningstar, masterwork large greatsword, rations (10), potion of cure light wounds (3), sack, silk rope (50 ft.), sunrod (5), waterskin, wetstone, winter blanket, 4 pp, 5 gp, 2 sp, 8 cp
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Supposedly they don't have the prevention of using rapid shot and many shot while flurryng, while the zen archer monk, clearly states you cannot gain both benefits.
As for gunslingers, as mentioned, they do enormous amount of damage, naturally from their abilities. No cheese about it. The cheese is letting the class in or not limiting it in some fashion.
Huh, yeah I suppose that WOULD work by RAW. That's very broken. Very. LOL
Hey Ravingdork - The guide to the builds is mostly for people like the OP. It's to help people create characters, not just look at them. Generally, builds need to meet a bunch of criteria (for example, what feats at what levels and what the build looks like at different levels), but I made an exception for you because I like some of your builds so much!
If you have favorite though, let me know and I'll put them on. :)
The Rann brothers are both excellent archer builds. One uses fancy tricks and is rather versatile for a fighter, and the other one is all about accuracy and damage.
Sela Kurn is a master abjurer who can dispel equal-leveled caster's spells on anything short of a natural "1" on his dispel check--he also stun-locks and cripples his targets's saves simultaneously.
Yiankun Lee is a master of earth magic and can petrify nearly any foe. A good example of a high DC save or die build with some other goodies and theatrics thrown in.
Helegûr is an ice witch who can create an infinite number of simulacrums for free. She rules her domain from a sentient flying crystal fortress. All around good example of eliminating costly components to great effect.
James Mycen is a veteran knight who excels at defending the meek and pushing bullies around. A high powered sword and board build.
Kirom Lancaster is a duelist without equal. She is nigh untouchable and consistently punishes her foes for attacking, retreating, or doing most anything else.
Ren Osio is a devious poisoner who has never once been suspected of any crime, much less the assassination of kings.
Siinsa Tosscobble is a hard hitting thug skilled in taking prisoners alive--though in her case that is often a fate far worse than death.
Taur Thelyn is an apt warrior who long ago mastered the powers of the wood. A terrific example of using battlefield control and terrain dominance to one's advantage.
You have most of my other favorites already. I have a few more that I like, but I don't feel they represent any particular kind of build.
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Firstly, I know that none of you KNOW me personally, but to assume that I am a player trolling for 'good builds' is incredibly insulting.
I'm currently running three games (Kingmaker, Carrion Crown, and one of my own design) and playing in none, so it's also a bit of a slap in the face.
I would like to also reiterate that I don't need DMing advice. I've been playing D&D and it's variants for 18 years and DMing for 11 of those years.
The Zen Archer and Synthesist Summoner combos are the kind of 'cheese' that I'm trying to be aware of. So thank you for that.
I run games where I allow any of the Paizo published Pathfinder materials. I do this because I can handle it, because I'm past the point of fearing rules.
I even allow homebrew and splat rules, depending on the player and the rule set.
For a clarification of what I'm looking for, any of you that are familiar with the concept of 'Pun-Pun', that's what I'm wanting to avoid. Any of you that aren't familiar with it should look it up. It's an eye opener to how broken 3.0 and 3.5 were capable of being before Pathfinder happened.
I'm not going to make the player aware of these designs. I'm going to go over his character, and if any red flags go up reading it I'm going to make him retool his character so that it's an acceptable design.
Does my question make more sense now?
Oh, that?
As stated in Pun-Pun's preface, it basically requires the GM to be on board with it for it to be possible. As long as you're capable of looking at something and saying "No, that's f&%@ing ridiculous. Seriously man?" you'll be fine with any of that kind of stuff. Just stay away from unrestricted Wishes and cheesy nonsense like "I can reload my guns with no hands ma!" and anything else that blatantly doesn't make sense.
If anything sohei is more broken in any sense than a zen archer would be. Only reason zen archer gets mentioned is because archers are powerful to begin with, make it a monk archer and it's even more so. Again, not broken but very strong, capability wise. However, any caster or gunslinger, summoner will be the top of the list for broken characters.
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With a basic understanding of one or two systems in the game, you can break whichever melee class you choose with a little time, research, and effort.
With a basic understanding of a couple systems, and the mechanics behind them, you can break the pure caster classes
With a good understanding of both of the above, you can severely break a couple break prone classes.
With a deeper understanding of feat interaction, class abilities, and class features coupled with the above, and you can do truly crazy things.
If you are a good player, you talk to the GM with said character, and point out as many of the 'game breaking' mechanics possible, and you speak politely to the GM about how to deal with said abilities. Then you and the GM come to a gentleman's agreement as to how, if and when you will use those mechanics.
You don't go out of your way to make the game less fun for your other players, or GM.
So, if you are a good player, it is almost impossible to break the game.
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So I have a player joining one of my pathfinder games who I've played with and is known for making game breaking characters. I have plenty of experience as a DM, so this isn't a DMing tips and tricks question. What I'd like to do is preemptively ban hammer any game breaking design concepts. So my questions is this:
Are there any threads discussing game breaking character combinations?
This is something that will help in this instance and in the future for if I allow any other well informed power gamers in to my games. Because I've known more than one player that lurks forums looking for game breaking designs. So if they're out there for Pathfinder, I'd prefer to know BEFORE they're used against me.
You are the GM. Grow a pair and put out there that you have to approve all builds, and that your interpretation of how spells/feats work is final, so if anyone has any questions about things they are going to try in game, they need to run them by you before they bring them to the table, and you reserve the right to bring out the nerf hammer if the game is being disrupted.
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Over a month ago, paizo devs changed some monk stuff, including flurry.
Seen here
Also, you can't flurry with rapid shot, however currently the sohei has a weird writing of this, which by RAW, allows them to flurry and rapid shot/ many shot.
Wait, wait.... ... WHAT?!?!?!
So Sohei can (at level 6) pull off Fury of Blows WITH rapid/many shot???
That's like... 4/5 attacks? More with haste or similar spell thrown in???
Seriously, that is so broken!.... but how do they do at lower levels? (1-5)
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My humble bit;
If he likes showing off his loophole-finding, system-breaking, rules-fu, then pose a challenge to him and make his penchant for borked characters benefit you.
Challenge him to play a support character. Challenge him to buff the bejeezus out of the party, or keep them prepped for every possible contingency, and never be taken in by ambushes. Convince him that by making everybody else shine brighter, he'll be showing just how awesome he is.
Or, you could just say "listen, man, we're all just trying to have some fun and share a good story. Everybody's going to be on the same basic power level, and each character will have his chance to shine. Don't be a jerk and overshadow the others. If you must have a character with some ultra-broken-win-button-maneuver, show some restraint and only pull it out when things get really bleak, okay?"
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...Grow a pair......excuse me?
Of testicles or breasts, depending on your gender.
Man or woman up as it were.
Put your foot, or other ambulatory limb down.
Show them you will not be moved.
Stand or sit your ground.
Get your game face on.
Show them your war face, grrrrrr.
Et cetera, et cetera.
my two copper (that have already been posted by other folks in this thread here) on the topic:
anything can be "broken" with a sufficient level of system mastery. yes, even mystic theurges (provided you're going beyond the usual cutoff at 14-15 in PFS).
if youve got a player who comes forward with a character that fits the setting but will grossly outclass the rest of the party, then point that out and politely ask them to bring it down a few notches (if they can crank it up, they should have no problem cranking it down).
mostly to keep the rest of the party from getting upset that they're useless, and to reduce the headache of balancing encounters with such a power gap.
if they cant deal with it and throw a hissyfit about it, they're not the type of person you should be gaming with.