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Monkeying Around

Tuesday, December 4, 2012

Late last week, we posted up a few quick FAQ issues to resolve some problems involving the monk. There has been a lot of discussion on the monk on the boards, and while it has taken us a while to come up with some solutions, we have made a few simple changes to address these concerns. I wanted to take this blog post to review these changes and to announce a few more.

Flurry of Blows: We have decided to reverse a previous ruling (that came from this very blog) that stated you needed to use two weapons when using flurry of blows (or a combination of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes). You can now make all of your attacks with just one weapon, or substitute any number of these attacks with an unarmed strike. Of course, if you have a pair of weapons and want to keep using both of them, that still works as well.

Ki Pool: Monks typically have problems bypassing DR with their unarmed strikes, forcing them to rely on weapons to deal with many forms of DR. We have decided to add a new ability to the Ki Pool monk class feature. At 7th level, a monk's unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, so long as he has at least 1 point remaining in his ki pool.

Amulet of Mighty Fists: On Friday, we posted up a FAQ that stated that the enhancement bonus from an amulet of mighty fists does allow natural attacks and unarmed strikes to bypass damage reduction if the enhancement bonus is at least +3 (as with other weapons, see page 562 of the Core Rulebook). In addition, we have decided to adjust the price of the amulet of mighty fists. The new prices are as follows: 4,000 gp (+1), 16,000 gp (+2), 36,000 gp (+3), 64,000 gp (+4), 100,000 gp (+5). Accordingly, the costs to create these amulets are also reduced to the following: 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5). This makes this item priced a bit more competitively for monks and creatures that rely on natural attacks. I should note that this change will be reflected in future printings of the Core Rulebook, Ultimate Equipment, and the NPC Codex.

Well, that about wraps up our current thoughts on the monk. Thanks to all the folks on the boards that provided us with feedback on this class.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Monks Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
1 to 50 of 229 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Marathon Voter 2013

29 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for taking the time for this Paizo.

Shadow Lodge Star Voter 2013

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And now the Amulet of Mighty Fists can be used by monks at about the same time as other magic weapons. Very nice.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I am beyond words about the AMoF update. Like, in the good way.

Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Removed a post. Let's try to keep this on topic.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Awesome, thanks for clarifying. I knew it would get cleared up eventually.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Sweet!

But now I'm wondering if these changes are extensive enough to merit a full rebuild for Pathfinder Society characters. It won't be a huge matter for me (I was sticking with Unarmed Strikes anyway, so I'd just have an extra 1000 gp in my bank account), but I could see how it might be a big deal for certain builds.


Jason, and all those who aided and assisted you in this, I just want to say, you guys are steely-eyed missilemen! Thanks. Now, if we could only address the problems with stand in place flurry vs. highly mobile tumbling, fast-moving character, that would be the icing on the cake. :)

MA

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

While I don't agree with the ruling about the +3 or better enhancement bonus the new prices for them and the 7th ki strike counting as cold iron and silver make up for it in the monks case but it does cause some issues for creatures and character builds who use natural weapons.

Well does the amulet of mighty fist still count as magic for DR purposes?


Dragon78 wrote:

While I don't agree with the ruling about the +3 or better enhancement bonus the new prices for them and the 7th ki strike counting as cold iron and silver make up for it in the monks case but it does cause some issues for creatures and character builds who use natural weapons.

Well does the amulet of mighty fist still count as magic for DR purposes?

That isn't a ruling exclusive to the item. That's always been the case for any weapon.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Excellent, very cool guys. Now my want for a monk pc in my games has grown even more.


Very exciting. Nifty, even.

Star Voter 2013

Love it! Thanks for the update!

Scarab Sages

Nice! Thanks for taking the time to look over that and make some improvements.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks for the clarifications on the Monk class. However, I have a question for you. Is there any plans to compile all the current FAQs for the Pathfinder RPG into a singular PDF available for download off the site? It would be greatly useful to have a copy of this FAQ on a tablet or printed out and available for reference at conventions where access to the Internet may be limited or unavailable.

Tarrintino

Paizo Employee Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

RainyDayNinja wrote:

Sweet!

But now I'm wondering if these changes are extensive enough to merit a full rebuild for Pathfinder Society characters. It won't be a huge matter for me (I was sticking with Unarmed Strikes anyway, so I'd just have an extra 1000 gp in my bank account), but I could see how it might be a big deal for certain builds.

Already addressed here.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is exciting stuff! Thanks for listening to the masses, devs. :)

Sovereign Court

Thank goodness the amulet prices are less insane now.

Scarab Sages

Awesome news :)

Silver Crusade

Wow, Just, Wow. Monks just got a huge boost. Dragon Style Monks are going to start rocking.


*making funky little dance*

Silver Crusade Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

:)

Thank you for this Paizo crew.

gets back to work on the dream monk

Marathon Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is there planned errata for the "Singing Bell of Striking" from pg 319 of Ultimate Equipment? Right now it lets the monk swap out their ability to overcome magic DR to be able to overcome cold iron or silver, depending on the material the bell is made from.


Dragon78 wrote:

While I don't agree with the ruling about the +3 or better enhancement bonus the new prices for them and the 7th ki strike counting as cold iron and silver make up for it in the monks case but it does cause some issues for creatures and character builds who use natural weapons.

Well does the amulet of mighty fist still count as magic for DR purposes?

As far as i can see they didn't change anything about the Amulet. It always worked like that. Some people just needed a FAQ to see it that way.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I love how the brass knuckles were errata'd to NOT use monk fist damage, but now that Ammy's of Mighty Fists is priced like a magical brass knuckles, why not allow brass knuckles to work like pre-errata?

Oh well, I like the clarification on how I've always ruled my flurries, and I'll keep using my pre-errata knucks.

Shadow Lodge null - Palouse Games , Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Sweetness - thanks team Paizo!

Sovereign Court Star Voter 2014

Thaaaank goodness. My Druid almost decided that buying a second AoMF and making it Holy was more effective than moving up to +3.


An improvement to be sure. I still think the Amulet of Mighty Fists is overpriced because weapons are functionally slotless. (An unarmed non-monk can TWF with brass knuckles for the same price without displacing his Amulet of Natural Armor, but a monk cannot do so without losing his unarmed strike dice.)

I think as long as AMF is inferior to weapons (takes the neck slot without a price discount relative to TWF, only goes up to +5 total enhancement) unarmed monks are going to have issues matching the other low skill classes. Barbarians can probably still be built to one up nearly any unarmed monk. Cavaliers and Oracles aren't strictly superior because of poor will and fortitude saves respectively, but have other advantages that can be quite substantial.

That said monks look like they're back in the game for people (myself included) who hate the superstitious barbarian fluff and the Sohei and zen archer are unambiguous again. Yay!


Paizo and Jason...thank you! I didn't have a problem with the Monk to be honest, but this makes my Monks even more awesome.

Thank you again for all your hard work and quality materials.


archmagi1 wrote:

I love how the brass knuckles were errata'd to NOT use monk fist damage, but now that Ammy's of Mighty Fists is priced like a magical brass knuckles, why not allow brass knuckles to work like pre-errata?

Oh well, I like the clarification on how I've always ruled my flurries, and I'll keep using my pre-errata knucks.

Where's that errata? The PRD description says that you can use your monk unarmed strike with them.

Humnbly,
Yawar

Liberty's Edge

Are these changes going to be incorporated into monk class entry of PRD?

Marathon Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
YawarFiesta wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:

I love how the brass knuckles were errata'd to NOT use monk fist damage, but now that Ammy's of Mighty Fists is priced like a magical brass knuckles, why not allow brass knuckles to work like pre-errata?

Oh well, I like the clarification on how I've always ruled my flurries, and I'll keep using my pre-errata knucks.

Where's that errata? The PRD description says that you can use your monk unarmed strike with them.

Humnbly,
Yawar

It's kind of a confusing saga to follow. Here's my understanding of it:

  • AA went to print saying they could be used with monk unarmed damage.
  • APG copied them into a hardcover.
  • Errata for AA came out soon after APG came out, removing that portion, since it doesn't make sense that they'd be doing their unarmed damage while using a weapon (which makes them armed).
  • For whatever reason, the second printing of the APG didn't contain the corrected version. It may have been a timing issue, I'm not sure.
  • UE is released, updating the brass knuckle to say this: "Monks are proficient with brass knuckles. Brass
    knuckles can’t be disarmed"

    This saga was tied to whether gauntlets let monks use their unarmed strike damage when using them. The design team indicated that this was not the answer (one of the reasons was the above about them being armed), and that the issue was due to the gauntlet's classification as an unarmed strike by the weapons table. This argument went that the following text in the gauntlet's description meant they could be used with the increased unarmed strike damage: "A strike with
    a gauntlet is otherwise considered
    an unarmed attack." That is the text from UE for the gauntlet, however the classification of the gauntlet was changed in UE from an unarmed attack to be a light melee weapon. That didn't really help solve the issue, but it's close enough related to the brass knuckles that I thought you may be interested in it.

  • Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

    Cheapy wrote:
    (The glove-style weapon saga)

    Don't forget the post by Sean K Reynolds saying that none of the glove-style weapons are supposed to be related to unarmed strikes at all; they're simply light weapons like any other.

    So... yeah.


    Pretty cool.


    I haven't even been following this debate and I'm still grateful. Maybe now I won't have to skip so many monk threads to find what I want.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Anyone know if/when these updates will make it into Hero Lab?


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Looks good. If it resolves all outstanding issues with the Monk is another topic.

    Just to make sure that we are all on the same page here, is this the complete extent to which the Monk will be modified? Or are there other changes still coming down the line?


    magnuskn wrote:

    Looks good. If it resolves all outstanding issues with the Monk is another topic.

    Just to make sure that we are all on the same page here, is this the complete extent to which the Monk will be modified? Or are there other changes still coming down the line?

    Not all of them unfortunately. Two major issues are still outstanding: the first is that flurry is only usable when standing still or taking a 5' step, which is at odds with monk's mobility and movement. Something like barbarian pounce, or a ki power that lets you move and get one extra attack (at your flurry BAB) would have solved that.

    And the second issue is MAD, which contributes highly to the monk's lack of hitting. Further exacerbated by being the only medium BAB class (except for the Rogue and Ninja) without an option to add to his attack rolls. The Rogue and Ninja have those sneak attack bombs in compensation, but the monk lacks that AND a good opportunity to hit like the martial class that it is.

    Don't worry, there is still plenty of fodder out there to chew upon.

    MA

    Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

    Marc Radle wrote:
    Are these changes going to be incorporated into monk class entry of PRD?

    The PRD and errata documents are released/updated upon the reprinting of a given hardcover. So these changes won't hit the PRD until they've been printed.

    Silver Crusade

    5 people marked this as a favorite.
    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

    Looks like my "whatever changes to the Monk will be made, people will want more" prediction was spot on. :)

    Liberty's Edge

    Thanks Cris! Any idea roughly when that will be?

    Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Marc Radle wrote:
    Thanks Cris! Any idea roughly when that will be?

    It's based on some factors that are somewhat unpredictable unfortunately and we don't make our reprint schedule public. All I can say is that when we do reprint, we try to let everyone know that errata is available as soon as possible. :)

    Lantern Lodge

    So... any chance on that ruling before Pathfinder was officially released that allowed Monks to do their unarmed damage on combat maneuvers?

    =D Thanks for the changes, though. Monk Love! <3

    Gorbacz, you are right. At least by asking, we get to potentially learn what their leanings may be.


    Does this means that the Bodywraps of Insufficient Strikes is gonig to be Errata'ed too?

    Yawar

    Dark Archive

    Cool now my Monk can make a comeback.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    YawarFiesta wrote:
    Does this means that the Bodywraps of Insufficient Strikes is going to be Errata'ed too?

    +1

    adjusting the price in light of AoMF for one, but I'd also really like to see the wierd BAB-based per-round limitation to go, it's just a wierdo thing to need to track, why not just let it work like a normal single weapon? it doesn't make sense to be MORE expensive than a normal weapon enchant while doing less (having to choose between iteratives and AoOs), certainly not when the bodywrap DOESN'T let you bypass the normal +1 requirement to add special enhancements like AoMF (a benefit that is only of value when you aren't adding that +1 enhancement, while 3/4 BAB classes are likely to want that +1 bonus).

    and while they're at it, either AoMF and/or Bodywraps should also apply to Grapple, weapon-less Bullrush, Over-Run and any other weapon-less Maneuver - as-is, those have less means to get attack bonus than other maneuvers - this isn't even getting into that Grapple, et al, aren't included in any Fighter Weapon Training Groups: they should really be part of Close, Monk, and Natural Weapon groups.

    for PFS, it would be nice if bodywraps and monk's robes were officially blessed as being combined onto the same item (with normal price increase) as well as being able to upgrade one into the other (e.g. BW+1 into BW+1&MonkRobe).

    Grand Lodge

    7 people marked this as a favorite.
    ra9662 wrote:
    Cool now my Monk can make a comeback.

    Don't call it a comeback. He's been here for years.

    Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter 2014

    Its monk classic.


    Thanks to Jason and the design team!

    Any chance the prd will be updated with these changes before the next core rules printing?


    I know a number of people in my gaming group who are gonna LOVE this info!

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