Hello, the Advanced Race Guide is great but, as usual with race's book in rpg,it poses many problems.
The paragon surge spell allows half elves to get +2 dext/Int and to take any one feat chosen when you cast the spell. If the spellcaster is an Oracle, Sorcerer or bard, he can choose the Expanded Arcana feat, meaning that for lvl minutes he can access to any spell of his list.
That makes half elves whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known the best spellcaster ever since they can face any situation with the right spell in there list. Is there an errata about this or... ?
Still broken, haven't seen any errata on it yet.
Thankfully there is no errata, and hopefully there will not be any errata in the future.
Prepared casters like the Wizard win out against Sorcerers and other such classes in the long run anyway.
Broken? That's laughable. It would take two actions to manage it in one round so its useless in combat. And it eats up resources. Two actions and 2 spells slots to get something on the fly? Calling that broken is pathetic.
As for being the best caster race now? Hardly. Humans can still get a boat load of spells known and not have to burn spell slots and actions like one has to with this.
For spontaneous casters, it means any utility spell you need is at hand. As the sorc/wiz spell list is incredibly robust, this beats a lot for a player who knows his spell list.
High level builds can abuse this by quickening + spell perfecting it, making it useful in combat.
I also believe that the use of paragon surge to grab things like hexes is an oversight and not intended or considered by the writer of the spell.
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Perfecting it is abuse? Hardly. Lets stop with the silly knee jerk retractions form the wizard purist. Getting perfect spell for it means they are burning a feat for it. Using feats to make one self better at something. The horror! A Sorc still has slow spell progression and less feats then a wiz (since most bloodline feats are trash.) So it STILL does not make them as good as a wizard.
Not to mention while they are using that swift action to get a spell they need a wizard is using to to cast something useful and then something else useful.
Yeah I don't see a problem with it either. While a Sorcerer does have an impressive amount of Spells Per Day, burning two spells to cast one is still a blow to his resources, and it's not really combat-worthy. What it really does is allow the Sorcerer to focus more on his chosen area of expertise (Summoning, Blasting, Controlling, etc.) while still having an expensive access to out of combat utility spells that are rarely needed until they're REALLY NEEDED.
Though I suppose if you wanted to nerf it, the easy way to do so would make it so you can't learn a spell that's a higher level spell than the spell slot used to cast it (not necessarily third level, if they want to burn a higher level spell slot to learn a higher level spell I say let 'em do so).
Yeah the spells per day thing I don;t find valid at all. Since full casters don't need much for gear they can afford pearls of power out the back side. So which caster has more spells per day means little to nothing. And since the spontaneous version of said item cost twice as much one can not really argue that the Sorc has the same option.
Perfecting it is abuse? Hardly. Lets stop with the silly knee jerk retractions form the wizard purist. Getting perfect spell for it means they are burning a feat for it. Using feats to make one self better at something. The horror! A Sorc still has slow spell progression and less feats then a wiz (since most bloodline feats are trash.) So it STILL does not make them as good as a wizard.
Not to mention while they are using that swift action to get a spell they need a wizard is using to to cast something useful and then something else useful.
Yeah, I present some reasonable points in a calm manner so I'm a "wizard purist" and recoiling from "The horror!"
Calm down there. You can disagree, you don't have to freak out.
Yeah I don't see a problem with it either. While a Sorcerer does have an impressive amount of Spells Per Day, burning two spells to cast one is still a blow to his resources, and it's not really combat-worthy. What it really does is allow the Sorcerer to focus more on his chosen area of expertise (Summoning, Blasting, Controlling, etc.) while still having an expensive access to out of combat utility spells that are rarely needed until they're REALLY NEEDED.
Though I suppose if you wanted to nerf it, the easy way to do so would make it so you can't learn a spell that's a higher level spell than the spell slot used to cast it (not necessarily third level, if they want to burn a higher level spell slot to learn a higher level spell I say let 'em do so).
This depends on what level we are talking about. At levels 10+ that 3rd level slot isn't that important (it's not even _that_ important once you get access to 4th level spells, let alone 5th). A wand of paragon surge is a perfectly reasonable investment.
My main concern is utility outside of combat. The spell perfection trick also allows it to be quite good in combat.
Actually, my main concern is that I don't think they thought through the implications of what picking up any feat through a spell would lead to. That is to say, I don't think the actual reasons people use this spell were its intended use.
Sorcerer with UMD and a wand of paragon surge. Who cares if you aren't a half elf.
Sorcerer with UMD and a wand of paragon surge. Who cares if you aren't a half elf.
Clever girl...
My main concern is utility outside of combat. The spell perfection trick also allows it to be quite good in combat.
The utility is probably a legitimate concern, but again, it is burning through 2 spells instead of 1, and at least one of those spells is a third level slot. While it's not a huge drain on resources, it's not nice either.
As for perfecting it for use in combat, that'll require level 15. By that point, I can't imagine that immediate access to a spell is going to be a game breaker in combat. Certainly it may be helpful, but if the player took a specific race, a specific spell, and a feat to perfect that spell, it seems worth it to have that pay off.
Actually, my main concern is that I don't think they thought through the implications of what picking up any feat through a spell would lead to. That is to say, I don't think the actual reasons people use this spell were its intended use.
This is my biggest problem with it, to be honest. It is pretty abusive with expanded arcana, and really doesn't seem to have been the plan. Like I said though, I at least don't feel like it shatters the game, even when used that way.
No it hasn't been errata'd yet but i am sure that it will be in the future.
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Sorcerer with UMD and a wand of paragon surge. Who cares if you aren't a half elf.
I don't think that works. Look at the Range line:
Range personal (half-elf only)
You can't target yourself if you're not a half-elf. And UMD can't emulate a race for purposes of a spell.
The spell is strong but I can't see how it makes a sorcerer any more versatile than a Scroll Library Wizard. The disadvantages people have listed are very real. It is a very solid 7th level spell pick. I wouldn't take it at 6th - I'd want something more immediately useful as my first third level spell.
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Sorcerer with UMD and a wand of paragon surge. Who cares if you aren't a half elf.
The spell care:
Paragon Surge
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 3, cleric 3, magus 4, paladin 4, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal (half-elf only)
Duration 1 minute/level
You can UMD the wand as much as you wish but unless you are a half elf you are a invalid target for the spell.
Use Magic DeviceCheck: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.
....
Emulate a Race: Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a member of a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time.
You use UMD to activate or use a magic item, but it can't be used to make you a valid target for a spell.
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About the whole discussion: find fun that the same people that in other threads post about the great advantage of a wizard versatility, how they can prepare the needed spell if he has the time to study it in 10 minutes using an empty slot here are belittling the ability to cast the needed spell spending 1 round and 1 3rd level slot.
A spellcaster with this spell can access any existing spell for his class while a wizard can access only the spells he has in his spellbook.
A wand with this spell is a costly item, but a few scrolls will cover the need of it in most adventures for a reasonable cost.
Wow, thanks for all your answers! But I really with Diego... Only 1 spell (I don't know why you're talking about taking a feat... You don't need the feat, that's the problem!) to get access to all the wizard / sorc spell list is awesome. Remember that if you take a spell one level lesser than your caster lvl, you get 2 spells... and as a sorcerer you can spam it if useful in combat. This really deserve an errata, I think.
Errata is only printed when the book is reprinted. The ARG has been out for a short amount of time, and had yet to be reprinted
For reference, UC still hasn't been reprinted.
Further, I have seen no developer commentary on this spell.
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Further, I have seen no developer commentary on this spell.
There was one by JJ. Before the "keep your house in order" thread I think.
From what I remember his opinion as a GM is that a spell that allow you to get any feat ever published is cumbersome, even more ifit allow you to get a feat that will then allow you to chose 1 or 2 spells or a hex or a magus arcana.
He feel that it will slow down the game while people search for the right spell, feat and so on and then make the appropriate adjustments.
So his suggestion for home brew games was to make a short list of allowed feats and limit the spell effect to those feats, excluding those giving extra spells, hexes and so on.
One of his problem was that the spell become more powerful every time a book with new feats (spells, hexes, magus arcana, oracle abilities, ecc.) is published.
You can argue about whether or not it breaks the game but it certainly is overpowered. No one spell or feat is supposed to provide that much utility. It's existence alters every other spell selection you take. Now instead of thinking "do I want ability X over ability Y" you think "Does X come up enough to warrant owning it over claiming it when I need it with paragon surge?"
That type of altered thought process is basically the definition of an overpowered (even if not game breaking) single ability. It's the same reason I hate evolution surge magnified by spell selection.
Or am I the only one who thinks this way?
You mean similar to how a single feat let's you potentially create a staff of infinite wishes before level 10?
Money is assumed by level. Don't have the spell? Up the DC by 5.
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My biggest issue with this spell is that it is race-specific. It's like making Weapon Finesse only applicable to halflings, or Power Attack only usable by half-orcs. People don't say those feats are overpowered, but they are required for certain builds.
What would be the Errata? That you can't select a Feat whose effects depend on your selection?
Or something like that, it would allow Weapon Focus since the +1 is the same,
but it would allow selecting different spells via Expanded Arcana because each spell is a wholly different effect...?
I *do* recall seeing feedback from Paizo, not sure if it made it into offical Errata,
that some ability that allowed selection of weapon specific feats to apply to all weapons (or that you have weapon training in) DIDN'T allow for Dervish Dance or such 'unique' ability Feats, it only allowed for Weapon Focus, Spec, etc... Although that's a slightly different issue,
I think in that case they ruled even MORE harshly than is mooted here, so I suspect that this will be Errata'd at some point to tone it down. The strongest Errata would be to limit it to a Feat selectable at 1st level, or possibly also allowing Feats whose Pre-Requisites you already have had since 1st level.
Glad that some other people pointed out the inability of UMD Race Emulating to change what a valid target of the spell is. It does seem to potentially work for Familiars also, apparently regardless of the Master's own race per RAW if not RAI. Given that though, there will be PLENTY of Sorcerors who don't have/use this spell, and certainly Humans or any other Race with bonus Spells Known will still compare well to Half-Elf Sorcerors (using Paragon Surge) IMHO.
This spell works as intended. There is no confusion of how it works.
DMs should feel free to disallow it if they like, but there is no need for errata.
"I don't like it" is not a valid reason for errata.
Come on. Paizo issued Errata for Paladin Smite, which was totally clear.
They didn't 'need' to, but they did, because they felt the ability was better balanced with the new limitation.The only ultimate reason for that Errata was that some people didn't like the balance of the previous version.
AFAIK, nobody from Paizo or the author specifically has stated 'I planned/forsaw using the spell exactly for things like Expanded Arcana'. Barring that, I don't think claiming this usage is intended is well justified by evidence. Certainly, how the game works is by general rules interacting with each other, and no author of an ability expects to forsee EVERY future rule, they just rely on the general rules interacting as written. But that doesn't mean that abilities can't be written such that their consequences go beyond the intent of the author. As seen by the Paladin Smite Errata, Errata can and does address design concerns as well as 'typos' and 'non functional wording'.
It's still not as powerful as haste, so I don't really see a problem.Paragon Surge grants haste to classes that don't normall receive it, without requiring that haste be prepared in advance.
How exactly?
Expanded Arcana only allows you to choose spells FROM YOUR CLASS' SPELL LIST. And it only works for Spontaneous casters, so no preparing there either.
Paragon Surge is usable by Oracles, granting them access to most arcane spells. Go research it.
What am I researching exactly? Is there another Feat I'm missing?
Oracles have the spontaneous caster bit down, but it still doesn't change the fact that if it's not on their spell list, they can't get it with Expanded Arcana.
Paragon Surge is usable by Oracles, granting them access to most arcane spells. Go research it.Unless there's a way for an Oracle to get access to arcane spells through feats... I'm not sure how paragon surge will allow an oracle to cast haste.....
Lore oracles have a power that lets them use arcane spells... but they need the spell on a scroll or in a spellbook to cast it.
Yes, once per day they can cast an Arcane spell as if it were on their spell list, but only if they have a scroll/spellbook with it (and then the spell is erased).
But I still don't see how that translates to "Lore Oracles have access to Sorcerer/Wizard spells at any time through Paragon Surge".
Yes, once per day they can cast an Arcane spell as if it were on their spell list, but only if they have a scroll/spellbook with it (and then the spell is erased).
But I still don't see how that translates to "Lore Oracles have access to Sorcerer/Wizard spells at any time through Paragon Surge".
I agree. I'm just guessing at what Artanthos might be getting at.
No haste unless the Oracle has it on their list.
Didn't see the other post about the lore trick, I agree, still wont help with extra arcana trick.
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You mean similar to how a single feat let's you potentially create a staff of infinite wishes before level 10?You can argue about whether or not it breaks the game but it certainly is overpowered. No one spell or feat is supposed to provide that much utility. It's existence alters every other spell selection you take. Now instead of thinking "do I want ability X over ability Y" you think "Does X come up enough to warrant owning it over claiming it when I need it with paragon surge?"
That type of altered thought process is basically the definition of an overpowered (even if not game breaking) single ability. It's the same reason I hate evolution surge magnified by spell selection.
Or am I the only one who thinks this way?
Seeing how Craft staff has a prerequisite of Caster Level 11 I am very curious to hear of what feat you are speaking.
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Paragon Surge/Expanded Arcana allows you to cast any Wizard/Sorc spell as long as you meet the spell slot cost for the following:
Shadow Evocation allows you to cast any sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower and have them be partially illusion (disbelieve for 20% damage/effects) for the following:
Wish allows you to cast (among many other options), Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools, or Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools for the following:
As a GM, I would not include Expanded Arcana in the allowed feats for Paragon Surge. I feel that it brings the spell up past a 3rd level spell in terms of power. It would take some time, but I would think about creating a "Greater Paragon Surge" spell at a higher level that allows more feats to include this one.
Seeing how Craft staff has a prerequisite of Caster Level 11 I am very curious to hear of what feat you are speaking.
CWI. It doesn't need to be a proper staff: just an item granting unlimited wishes.
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How an oracle can cast any wizard/sorcerer spell
Step one: Grab Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane).
Step two: Be level 11.
Step three: Use paragon surge to grab Improved Eldritch Heritage to add one (or more, depending on level) wizard/sorcerer spell to your list of spells known.
Yes, the oracle could grab haste. However, the oracle could have grabbed haste anyway by taking Improved Eldritch Heritage. Paragon surge gives him/her more flexibility in choice, but requires a round of warmup. Not really a problem, especially considering limited wish is just around the corner.