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I know we are still pre-alpha days here folks, but I would like to start the discussion of character and to some extent monster collision. To see what everyone thinks about it.
Personally, I think to maintain any kind of spirit of pathfinder, character collision MUST be part of the engine, and we cannot allow players and creatures (At LEAST in combat scenarios) to harmlessly pass through each other. This would defeat any kind of tactical arrangements, tanking styles of MANY kinds, and might as well write off the entire premise of Attacks of Opportunity.
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I understand this much, but the idea of standing inside or, or even underneath a huge creature and suffering no further negative effects than POSSIBLY being the creature that the monster is attacking (Which very well could NOT be the case with how often parties will be formed) is just... beyond.
I'm not asking for a robust physics engine here, simply hitboxes that wont cross each other during combat, at least for opposing sides.
Goblin Squad Member
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I'm full in favor of character collision. I've played other mmos without it and I think it would bring a whole lot of meaning to PVP.
The collision detection field could be quite small, ie a rectangular the size of a characters head from head to toe, but that would still bring a whole lot of elements to the game.
Then there could be some kind of "second field"(character shoulder size) that could be penetrable but would detect if three or more "second collision fields" would be over lapping each other or joined so that half of those fields joined would lose their true collision fields so that the character would become penetrable.
This kind of system could prevent griefing:
Only thing I'm worried about is the griefing it might cause, stucking doorways, hallways, gates so that no one gets out of town etc at least, but those kinds of things could be made bannable.
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What about a close-set area that a player can be "pushed" around in a small circle, radiating from where they were standing last? Say a 2-3 foot radius so you can shoulder an AFK player aside from a busy NPC but not so much as to be able to push the player any appreciable distance into monsters, out of safe areas, into hazards etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about a close-set area that a player can be "pushed" around in a small circle, radiating from where they were standing last? Say a 2-3 foot radius so you can shoulder an AFK player aside from a busy NPC but not so much as to be able to push the player any appreciable distance into monsters, out of safe areas, into hazards etc.
If someone wanted to cause a fuss they could still gather 20-30 people at some gate standing, it would be quite a feat to get through...
Well I guessed with the system I proposed it would also be a fuss. Difficult to know how it would work without testing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone wanted to cause a fuss they could still gather 20-30 people at some gate standing, it would be quite a feat to get through...
I think collision should be in, especially for situations like blocking a gate, or protecting a fallen comrades' corpse.
Some of the earliest games had this (EQ for one)
To get through that gate:
climb walls, Jump, combat manuvers like drag, tumble, bullrush, dimension door spell, potion of gaseous form, Fly spell, a huge mount charging through, boots of striding and springing, etc
ps
Bullrush, reposition, drag, all become weird little teleports without 'solid' bodies for our toons. Collision ftw
For unit combat, and even for general encounters collision needs to be present. It would defeat the uprise of having formations if players could just run right through a shield wall or if a phalanx just passed through a mass of troops surrounding their commander. Although I'm no programmer, I'm sure the Unity system would allow collision to be worked into the game, likely with no extra time spent coding it. (Maybe Dak could clue us in on if thats possible).
Please add collision!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unity has a pretty good collision and physics systems built in, I wouldn't worry too much about this. You can even do things such as changing the shape of the collider for a phalanx formation.
One thing I want to see, that is not present in most MMO's, is the ability to push other players anywhere in the world. Barring some additional effect(like tied in place, or sitting in a chair), people shouldn't be rooted to the ground. Something like a phalanx should still be vulnerable to a large object, such as a boulder or troll breaking the lines with little effort.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So 1 guy standing in the door to the inn pretty much makes it useless to every other player?
Sorry, every game I've seen with real collision detection mostly saw it used to grief other players.
Maybe other chars could just push him away. It's not a 10 ton statue is just a guy like all of us LOL
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could be 2 forms of it.
In combat, may involve pushing, solid blocking etc...
Out of combat, much looser, you can easilly walk by/through people, cannot push them etc... just not stopping inside of someone.
Could simply be determined by location... IE within town walls, out of combat, inside walls, looser form.
If you are afk in the wilderness, unless you have a party you trust guarding you... you accept the risks anyway, whether it's a bandit, a wandering monster, etc... Getting pushed off somewhere else isn't really a noticable increase to what could happen to you anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could be 2 forms of it.
In combat, may involve pushing, solid blocking etc...
Out of combat, much looser, you can easilly walk by/through people, cannot push them etc... just not stopping inside of someone.
Could simply be determined by location... IE within town walls, out of combat, inside walls, looser form.
If you are afk in the wilderness, unless you have a party you trust guarding you... you accept the risks anyway, whether it's a bandit, a wandering monster, etc... Getting pushed off somewhere else isn't really a noticable increase to what could happen to you anyway.
PnP in combat you need to use Bullrush and a strength check if I recall correctly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Choosing to Block another character could apply the Attacker Flag...It took me precisely three seconds to think, if I run into an AFK player I can force the attacker flag onto him and kill him ;)
Yep, don't think that would be a popular mechanic :)
It used to work OK in Ultima Online of all places. It used stamina to push past people so you could push through one person but not more than that because you ran out of stamina. It was removed for Tramell and a similar mechanic could apply that it only applies in open combat zones. Nobody wants to find they can't get to the bar in a tavern, after all!
Ruf
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Goblin Squad Member
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So 1 guy standing in the door to the inn pretty much makes it useless to every other player?
Sorry, every game I've seen with real collision detection mostly saw it used to grief other players.
Like an Ogre in Sol B ?
That is because all those games made a character an immovable object, which you couldn't just chop out of the way with a sword. Or tumble past.
Or contract someone to 'move' him.
PFO has a lot of solutions to the old problems :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Collision detection is one of those things that are great to have BUT can have a huge impact on performance. Not so much when it's one group of players versus a few mobs, but moreso when it's a siege with hundreds of characters battling over the same small area.
I agree. If implemented this kind of mechanism would require extensive testing before being available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Collision detection is one of those things that are great to have BUT can have a huge impact on performance. Not so much when it's one group of players versus a few mobs, but moreso when it's a siege with hundreds of characters battling over the same small area.
That's my experience.
I think formations should. Individuals less so. Except perhaps to push other players off bridges, cliffs, walls and the like. That is "fair play" and very fun combat. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Choosing to Block another character could apply the Attacker Flag...It took me precisely three seconds to think, if I run into an AFK player I can force the attacker flag onto him and kill him ;)
I was suggesting that the player would choose whether or not to block the space he occupies, and choosing to do so would apply the Attacker flag.
I was not suggesting that characters always block the space they occupy, and that if someone tried to move through them then the blocker would be flagged.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Definitely collision detection needs to be in.
Could have it disabled for taverns, just imagine trying to get around a tavern with a bunk of drunk dwarves.
Yep, trying to actively block an entrance, etc, results in combat mode being initiated. Then a special combat attack called "bump" can be used to try to bump the blocker out of the way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would really be in favor of collision detection as well. If it's not in (or even if it is in - for ranged and magic attacks), I think GW is going to need to find some way for the defenders to limit target selection for the defenders.
Alot of MMO combat boils down to.. We all attack X (X dies). Now we all attack Y (Y dies). Etc.
After you've experienced that once or twice it isn't particularly fun or interesting anymore.
If you have some way to break that up and have some way to limit who an individual attacker can select to attack based on circumstances or defender actions then combat becomes alot more interesting because there are many more decisions that have to be made by individuals.
Collision Detection and Positioning are one way to do that.
Absent that you could also do something like Engagement where you either can't ignore someone who is engaging you or there are big penalties/risks involved for doing so.
You could also do something like Cover/Protect where one character limits the attacks that can be directed at another by blocking those attacks and directing them toward himself instead.
Those sort of things are possible even absent collision detection within pretty standard MMO engines.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@GrumpyMel, I really like that idea. I'd love to have an ability to "guard" another character. It seems like that should make it very difficult for anyone to even target that character if I'm in their line-of-sight. With enough guards, a character could be completely untargetable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would be in favor of character collision if you had the option to PUSH idle characters. Imagine a crowded market where 75% of the players could be AFK or busy in menu screens. You are not stuck by nature of someone trying to actively block you, but by nature of people being inconsiderate.
I would also support a toggle switch for 'Block Movement' or 'Let them pass'. You could keep your blocking off, unless you were wanting to tactically or strategically use it for some purpose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not believe that blocking should give the blocker an attacker flag. In a PC settlement there could be PC guards. A guard's job is to only let pass those who are supposed to pass and keep out (block) those who aren't. In doing their job blocking would be pretty much a given as a part of their normal activities. Giving an attacker tag in that case for not actually attacking seems disconnected. Attacking up until now in these threads has been about inflicting damage or casting spells at targets. I think this would be an inconsistent change.
It might be more appropriate to give the attacker flag to the character trying to pass.
@Lifedragn also has a valid point regarding crowds.
The biggest issue with it is the idiots who think its funny to stand in the middle of doorways and block people from entering and exiting the building. There has to be a way of moving without umm hurting them or instigating combat.
I think this is the only reason people are opposed to collision. In combat you wouldn't want someone to be able to "push past" a line of fighters protecting a caster, or at least have it be a slow process. Outside of combat, the example of a doofus blocking a doorway, allowing someone to push them out of a doorway would solve this issue. So perhaps make it a slow process as well, say 4-5 seconds? That way collision could just be enabled all the time.
I wonder though if there shouldn't be some sort of factor for the amount of force being applied? During unit combat a Calvary unit, or a phalanx striking say a shield wall or other formation should have an Impact on that units position I would think. Say 2 or 3 defenders were blocking the entrance to a keep, if 4 attackers were to charge the,, attempting to get past them it should take longer then if say 10 attackers were to charge those same 2 or 3 defenders.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Harad Navar, Blocking a character with the Trespasser flag should not give the blocker the Attacker Flag, just like Attacking a character with the Trespasser flag would not give the attacker the Attacker flag.
@Nihimon, I can see that when someone tries to enter a settlement when they are trying to circumvent an alignment restriction. However, if those players are in the settlement legally (e.g., NG in a LG settlement) and want to enter a guarded place (a good thief believes that something they need to save another town is in there), what then?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only problem with having character collision is that you can't kill the people blocking Tavern doors, right? So having the ability to just walk through or push people in a non combat environment is the answer. I believe this was done in Age of Conan.
The combat benefits of having character collision far outweigh the non combat issues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Collision detection is only needed in combat!
Most important is no collisions between formations. You simply cannot charge through a shield wall unless you break it.
Second importance is "no griefers blocking the door". Unless they are actually starting a fight with you to prevent you from going in, they should not block you. "Elastic collision" (you can move through, but not stay) is ok between neutrals/friendlies, but it is simpler to implement disadvantages for overcrowding.
For small scale combat, the relevant actions could be implemented as combat abilities:
-bull rush/push: this action tries to move your opponent, pushing off walls etc.
-hold ground/guard: this action prevent enemies from moving into/through your threathened area.
I would love to see a fighter skill tree focused on controlling the ground or enemy movement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I might be one of the few people, who is not demanding this feature. I really don't mind its inclusion, but it has to be very good, if isn't it has the potential to be quite annoying.
Not that it matters much, but I would not be surprised if this topic is actually determined by the hardware requirements. After all we are all on one server, server splitting should never become necessary.